The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[KillerJawz]

D3 is supposed to be dropping? I did not hear about this. Can anyone give some legitimate reasons as to why he will likely fall?

I don't know where you heard this but I do suppose his killing troubles could be one of the causes for this. Outside of a few moves, D3 lacks killing options, or reliable ones at that.

 

[Mr-R]

what ? ddd lacks killing moves?
i was not aware of that

 

[KillerJawz]

what ? ddd lacks killing moves?
i was not aware of that

I said options, not moves. For example, utilt has a blind spot on, so it sometimes fails to hit the opponent. Also note that I said outside of a few moves.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

me neither, set ups into kill moves yes

utilt it sometimes fails to hit the opponent.

lols

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Stupid Ramin, l2read

 

[KillerJawz]

me neither, set ups into kill moves yes



lols

Wow you HARD edited that post.

And yes, it does sometimes miss, so I suppose you could find that funny? :/

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Utilt hitbox is ****e in like alotta mu's, you ain't never gonna hit a falco or TL with utilt.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Wow you HARD edited that post.

And yes, it does sometimes miss, so I suppose you could find that funny? :/

i've utilt people in shield above me only to have them fall off platforms from shield stun, to get utilted again and die

a good DDD will always be able to land utilts and make them count



i also want to hear about this blind spot you speak off on utilts move

 

[KillerJawz]

i've utilt people in shield above me only to have them fall off platforms from shield stun, to get utilted again and die

a good DDD will always be able to land utilts and make them count



i also want to hear about this blind spot you speak off on utilts move

Blindspot was the wrong word, more of a 'lacking side hitbox'. Your sarcasm is dry, as a D3 main you know about it already, so there is no point in me replying to this nonsense.

Ta ta for now.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Utilt when not used correctly beckons all forms of punishment. As a vertical move kill move, it does exactly that. It lacks horizontal distance, cept for a few ending frames in the front of DDD.

Its interesting though, when you look at usmash n utilt. Usmash does 2% more damage, has slightly better horizontal range[if you pardon that frame delay...] yet as a smash move it has inferior knock back when compared to utilt. Even fresh, you can DI pretty safely back to the stage if you get hit with a uncharged usmash.

utilt - has 2% less damage than usmash and has the suprerior knockback. comes out faster, yet lacks the horizontal range of usmash. But makes up for usmashs bad knockback. In terms of vertical height when you look at both moves however, its fairly close. Only diff is usmash hitboxes move in an arch, utilts immediately goes straight up

 

[Laem]

uptilt through that phantasm allll day, xonar

 

[Laem]

****in smashboards

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ma boi that be so predictable

+you can god DI if you phantasm recover it's pretty easy to learn apparently but nobody ever mastered it besides Pure_Awesome rofl

 

[Yamato Hong]

I hope there will be more smashers representing the lower-tiered characters.

That would be my dream. ^-^

 

[AndorranPrince]

Hurrah! Yoshi is finally moving up in the world! XD

 

[Blacknight99923]

lack of killing is something almost every character has in exception to snakes utilt and kill moves along with fox's kill moves and set ups that lead to them in some way.

that being said MK ,snake Diddy , marth all have a reasonable ability to kill you out of hitting their shield, in a sense these characters have better kill options because one lapse at a higher percent will easily lead to death against these characters. I know I probably haven't included all of the characters that have reasonable options but bear with me (inb4 ness mains and B throw).

It isn't hard to notice the trend that characters with kill options on shield tend to be higher tier characters

 

[Blacknight99923]

lack of killing is something almost every character has in exception to snakes utilt and kill moves along with fox's kill moves and set ups that lead to them in some way.

that being said MK ,snake Diddy , marth all have a reasonable ability to kill you out of hitting their shield, in a sense these characters have better kill options because one lapse at a higher percent will easily lead to death against these characters. I know I probably haven't included all of the characters that have reasonable options but bear with me (inb4 ness mains and B throw).

It isn't hard to notice the trend that characters with kill options on shield tend to be higher tier characters

 

[bigman40]

Easy killing setups (that includes shielding) makes killing easier for characters.

 

[Browny]

Utilt when not used correctly beckons all forms of punishment. As a vertical move kill move, it does exactly that. It lacks horizontal distance, cept for a few ending frames in the front of DDD.

Its interesting though, when you look at usmash n utilt. Usmash does 2% more damage, has slightly better horizontal range[if you pardon that frame delay...] yet as a smash move it has inferior knock back when compared to utilt. Even fresh, you can DI pretty safely back to the stage if you get hit with a uncharged usmash.

utilt - has 2% less damage than usmash and has the suprerior knockback. comes out faster, yet lacks the horizontal range of usmash. But makes up for usmashs bad knockback. In terms of vertical height when you look at both moves however, its fairly close. Only diff is usmash hitboxes move in an arch, utilts immediately goes straight up

tl;dr ... something i dont even know what this post is trying to prove

Are you seriously arguing that utilt is a reliable KO move? sure its powerful but as others have said its not guaranteed to hit certain characters at all who can dodge it all day long safely. (im sure marth can be added to that list)

 

[Justblaze647]

So a reliable KO move is one that is powerful and has guaranteed set ups to hit "certain characters?"

How many moves like this exist in the game?

Edit: Hey DJ. Nice Renamon.

 

[Browny]

Id say a reliable KO move is one that can be used to punish a variety of attacks from every character in the game. snake utilt obvious example, kirby fsmash another. im sure theres some characters which can play perfectly safe against DDD and never run the risk of getting punished by utilt (as someone said before, TL is a good example)

 

[Spelt]

so how about them yankees and other none tier list-related topics, eh?

 

[Nefarious B]

Good characters have multiple KO moves covering different angles of play. Like Wario is a great example, he has waft that can punish you anywhere, he has uair as a good shield pressure KO, he has fsmash to punish clanks with superarmor or laggy attacks on shield, and he has bair if it comes down to a hard spacing game.

MK is the same way, he has dair gimps, SL for OOS vertical kills or early gimps, nair for aerial kills, dsmash to quickly cover large grounded areas, and fsmash as a low risk stupidity punisher. It's not like you can air camp or shield camp these characters, there is no strategy that allows you to escape or make their KO moves super difficult to land except for good play, which makes them less gayable.

 

[Luigi player]

Id say a reliable KO move is one that can be used to punish a variety of attacks from every character in the game. snake utilt obvious example, kirby fsmash another. im sure theres some characters which can play perfectly safe against DDD and never run the risk of getting punished by utilt (as someone said before, TL is a good example)

Kirbys fsmash a reliable KO move? It's sooo slow, has a lot lag and it's range isn't the best. You won't hit with it often if your opponent tries to play it safe. I mean sure you can hit with it every now and then, but calling it reliable? No way.

 

[Browny]

well besides the extreme examples (snakes utilt and shuttle loop), what other attacks out there are so much better than kirbys fsmash such that we could classify them as opposites?

Id say... Giant Punch, ICs cg-usmash, ness bthrow, olimar usmash, wario uair.

I cant see how Kirbys fsmash, when compared to other KO moves in this game, could be called unreliable while others (that arent utilt) are, theres just not enough of a difference.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Weegee fsmash maybe?

 

[Luigi player]

well besides the extreme examples (snakes utilt and shuttle loop), what other attacks out there are so much better than kirbys fsmash such that we could classify them as opposites?

Id say... Giant Punch, ICs cg-usmash, ness bthrow, olimar usmash, wario uair.

I cant see how Kirbys fsmash, when compared to other KO moves in this game, could be called unreliable while others (that arent utilt) are, theres just not enough of a difference.

Tbh I don't even think Snakes utilt is good enough... what you need is many options that are "good".

If all a Snake will do is utilt, then it will suck, because your opponent can try to trick you to use it and punish (like just run up to you and shield, then punish). Even if the Snake is not obvious with his utilt, it's still really difficult to land if your opponent tries really hard to avoid it. (okay, maybe it isn't easy punishable, unless you're Diddy/Dedede)
The good thing for Snake is that he has many more moves that will KO too, even if they are slow you have to watch out for anything Snake does. And with his grab, which does 12 % I think, he can try to predict you and follow you near a ledge to trap you... nobody wants to get grabbed by Snake.
What makes him even more dangerous is his C4 (and sometimes his dsmash too). You need to watch out for so many things.


Ness' bthrow is really good, of course, but if it would be all Ness had, then it would suck, because your opponent will try to avoid it if he's in KO %. Luckily, Ness also has uair/bair, which can catch opponents that try to jump before you grab them...

I wouldn't say Diddys fsmash is reliable, but it is more reliable than Kirbys fsmash, imo, because it is way safer and a multihit (with the stronger hit being the 2nd one, while if someone spotdodges Kirbys fsmash he might only be hit with the weaker part, if at all).

It really seems to me like it's soo easy to shield Kirbys fsmash, and it's range also sucks... the lag makes it even worse, because you are able to punish. Think of Warios fsmash.

DKs dsmash would be really good, if it wouldn't have that much lag. If your opponent shields it, you'll be punished (badly?).


To have good/reliable KO potential you need many options and/or even setups. And of course they should be fast, safe and have good range.

A move on it's own would probably never be truly reliable... unless it's waayy broken.

 

[Browny]

A move on it's own would probably never be truly reliable... unless it's waayy broken.

and really? diddys fsmash? That things is simple to DI... infact I find myself accidentally SDI'ing out of the final hit more often than I deliberately DI out of it lol.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Using an image of Snake hitting one of ZSS's legs.
Not cool man

 

[Blacknight99923]

that picture made me wtf until I realized it was SDI

 

[Yikarur]

that picture made me wtf until I realized it was SDI

I could also be a dtilt that got hit by uptilt because of the extended hurtbox.

 

[RATED]

long post about kill move

what makes a good "kill move" good is that the other options or gameplay of that character help getting that move.

also... you forgot Tornado!

 

[Nestec]

...Tornado is a kill move?

 

[Laem]

Kills at 0% at the very top of the stage.

 

[Spelt]

yes because characters are at 0% at the top of the stage all the time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

yes because characters are at 0% at the top of the stage all the time.

After getting hit by a couple of U-Airs, you'd be surprised.

 

[Spelt]

And uair has no damage output~ :D

 

[dainbramage]

Technically anything with hitstun kills at the very top of the stage.

 

[GwJ]

i've utilt people in shield above me only to have them fall off platforms from shield stun, to get utilted again and die

a good DDD will always be able to land utilts and make them count



i also want to hear about this blind spot you speak off on utilts move

A good MK will never get hit because he knows his frame advantages.

 

[LanceStern]

well besides the extreme examples (snakes utilt and shuttle loop), what other attacks out there are so much better than kirbys fsmash such that we could classify them as opposites?

Id say... Giant Punch, ICs cg-usmash, ness bthrow, olimar usmash, wario uair.

I cant see how Kirbys fsmash, when compared to other KO moves in this game, could be called unreliable while others (that arent utilt) are, theres just not enough of a difference.

I think Kirby's forward smash is definitely one of the more reliable ones... others off the top of my head:

Fox: Upsmash
Falco: Upsmash, Bair
Squirtle: Dthrow
Diddy Kong: Dsmash/Uair/Fair

Even then a lot of these are subjective. Kirby's fsmash is a little laggy though