Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Wolf mains get out
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Might want to read that sentence again.I can't tell what you mean by this, but Marth vs MK is not unwinnable, and Marth and MKs MU's against both Pika and Fox aren't unwinnable.
You can't use matches played against dead people as justification for a MU not being bad.Fox Pika really isn't that bad. I have seen numerous fox player avoid grabs against expired pikachu players.
This is true; in Fox dittos there's always a Fox that loses.Fox loses to GOOD Fox, IC and Pika players.
I mean experienced. lol.You can't use matches played against dead people as justification for a MU not being bad.
Sonic > PT
Him staying where he is suggests that he is totally unviable for tourney play, yet he gets more top ate positions than any character in his tier, and some of the characters a tier above him.Sonic's either moving up one, down one, or staying in the same spot.
He hasn't done much that dictates a movement to begin with, anyways. He's about right where he belongs.
lol, its definitely worse than Marth MK, by that metric it is unwinnable. Realistically its probably 70-30 or worse, unless fox has tools im unaware of that make it better than the falco mu.I don't think Fox-Pikachu is that bad; bad, but not unwinnable (think Marth-MK).
Above now? Peach is pree superior to Sonic...I would say, if everything in the tier list were to stay the same (for the sake of simplicity), I put him either above or behind Peach... upper mid d tier
lol, Sonic staying below PT and Sheik would be the most illogical, imcomprehensibly stupid result of all time.Sonic's either moving up one, down one, or staying in the same spot.
He hasn't done much that dictates a movement to begin with, anyways. He's about right where he belongs.
-_-No it wouldn't.
Meta Knight going to bottom tier would dwarf the hell out of that in terms of "incomprehensibly stupid"-ness.
Either way, now that I actually sit down and think about it, if we're going heavily off of tournament results, Sonic's current activity warrants a good-sized jump upward in the tier list. I'm talking about hovering somewhere between DK and Peach's positions.
He's been doing very well compared to even the likes of ROB, Pit, and Kirby too, methinks.
You never specified.-_-
lets stry to stick to realistic possible scenarios here.
Rather than saying that that's a hint for Sonic to move above him though, I'd think it'd be more safe to assume that ROB should be knocked down a notch.yeah sonics tournament results def. trump ROBs. it comes down to whether the community is willing to change their beliefs based on tournament results. (they wont)
*shrug* I like how things are enormously ******** just because they aren't in your stretch of view.lol, Sonic staying below PT and Sheik would be the most illogical, imcomprehensibly stupid result of all time.
The top shiek mains cant place anywhere near as well, or as frequently as the top sonics, they never have and likely never will. At least PT remains arguable and some doubt may exist for as long as reflex is around lol.
My thoughts exactly. I agree that Sonic deserves a rise, even possibly above Sheik for the time being, sure. But to say that Sheiks will never place as high as sonic is inherently flawed.*shrug* I like how things are enormously ******** just because they aren't in your stretch of view.
I wouldn't say sheiks can't place anywhere near as well as Sonics, it's entirely possible.
If the rankings list never existed, Sonics would still be placing very highly (X and espy) and have a multitude of other players who repeatedly take top8 and a PR'd. Can you say the same for sheik?Browny's heavy reliance on the rankings list worries me.
This is definitely true for the choir, not exactly the people new to the church (if that makes sense at all). The rankings list is for people who are new to the game, coming in to see where their character stands and why that's the case. Most people actually -won't- know who's better than the other off of immediately sight, there's far too much to learn about the game to know that first hand.If the rankings list never existed, Sonics would still be placing very highly (X and espy) and have a multitude of other players who repeatedly take top8 and a PR'd. Can you say the same for sheik?
You're looking at this the wrong way lol. If a ladder didnt exist for a sports competition, everyone would still be able to see which teams win more often are the better teams etc :/
While I accept your opinion as valid it really depends on what was used as judgment. People still use matchups for judgment around as much as they use tournament results: what tourney results did they use? How did sonic fare in these? Did they also use who they played in brackets as viable reasons? There are a lot of questions that we haven't entirely looked at.Ok ill accept what I said was off. I say it is wrong because when 4.0 came out, Sonic has stayed above rank 20 for the 8-month period in the rankings list for the entire time, then sheik and pt who were always around 23-28 or so get above him. it doesnt make any sense to me that if for the second continuous update, after placing far above sheik and pt for well over 12 months, he would stay below them. I shift the question from 'why should sonic rise' to 'why should others rise above him'.
I think a strong factor to sheik's gameplay is the loop that she has, the DACUS that's lolpainful, and a little bit of bias sprinkled on the side; but what do i know.I just dont see any reason why they moved above him in 4.0, and why they would then stay above him in 5.0. Sure Sonic's results are biased because he has many more people playing him, more people playing = more likely to have pros main him. Outside of theoretical matchup ratios (which incidentally, are hard for the sheik/pt mains to prove are favourable to them because there are so few sheiks able to show us how she fares vs the higher tier characters), I dont see a reason for sheik to stay above sonic. The doubt with sonics sheer number of players skewing results is less than the doubt that exists vs how good pt and sheik are in theory imo.
I've said this 100 times, but the rankings list is almost the most important thing, because whatever we say about what makes a character good or bad is subject to opinion and human error and the rankings list is not. The rankings list clearly shows Sonic doing pretty well at tournaments. There's obviously a discrepancy between where we've put him and how capable he actually is.Browny's heavy reliance on the rankings list worries me.
I do. There's no way Sonic is in the same tier as a bunch of characters who haven't placed at half his level in eight months.I dont have a problem with pt/sheik/sonic being in the same tier
I think it's the former. If any other character had the sheer amount of options Sonic has, we'd say they were a good character. His options heavily factor into how good or bad his match-ups really are and it's something we aren't considering.the ranking list is evidence that can be used to assert a character's viability in terms of match ups and what not.
Is Sonic's match ups with the key characters under rated? Is his capabilities in his current environment rule set wise (standards, not exactly BBR) bolstering his effectiveness?
Or are his player's exceptional compared to the opponent's they face?
No you don't.I know how espy feels about pt/sheik/sonic so I was playing to his emotions there
Sonic can handle Rainbow Cruise well against certain opponents. There's plenty of room to navigate, Sonic can use SDR abuse on the right side of the ship, has a jab lock set up so long as the opponent doesn't tech, and various other little gimmicks here and there that really make him a nuisance.It might be noted that X took M2k to RC and beat him handily. I watched it on the stream and he seemed to have no problem navigating RC at all.
I could argue for Battlefield being a level he "can't" use well, but in comparison to stages like Final Destination, Halberd, Smashville, Yoshi's Island: Brawl, and several counterpicks, I'll agree with you.With the recent (3.1) release, and my over all commitment to seeing it as a standard...
Sonic does very well on group 2 stages. Pokemon Stadium 2 (lest the day I force it down people's throats as a starter somewhere other than Sydney, Australia) is a stupidly good stage for him. As is Pictochat.
Yoshi's Island, a top priority starter is an auto strike against him.
He has counter pick stages he has extreme advantages on with a percent lead in YI and Pictochat; and even without has some of the best priority "approaches" available.
FD, Castle Siege, Halberd and PS1 don't exactly weaken him, they assert his strengths. Delfino definitely has a slew of characters that do better than him.
Sonic does wlel on smashville too... jesus christ.
I'd say battlefield + Delfino are the only available starters that he can't "use" that well.
What?Yeah I'd agree delfino is probably his weakest CP in general (that isnt something absurd like norfair).