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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

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Dark 3nergy

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I do think people are afraid or w/e i just think they dont wanna put time into a LT character when they are already doing amazing with the normal character.

Look at boss/Pierce mario. I have played BOTH and i can tell you mario is underated as hell. Lets say boss is just an "exception to the rule" with mario......that leaves pierce. I can STILL say mario is underrated. Why? NO ONE put thier vids of a low tier beating good players. I KNOW pierce and boss can beat GOOD players with LT but they just dont do it. IF they did, things would change.

Look at FOW and Shaky. Shaky has place top 3 and even SPLIT with a snake for 1st place in florida. FOW has literally BEAT m2k and went more-or-less even with him the last time they played......now look at where ness is? He climbed a littl bit. When you have results or TOP players admitting certain things happening(m2k saying fow beat him a few times) or vids. things can change.


Again, the issue is that no one really give time into LT and thats why that part of the tier list is not SUPER accurate.
i honestly think the only thing holding me back from picking up a few LT would be any sort of complex/moment AT. That and applying those things in live combat. I'd need assistance for learning some of this stuff i cant do alone. Which is why i think ppl need to come together not to necessarily be competitive but to teach the art to others willing to learn it[and they NEED TO BE WILLING]

ive always believed LT to be a labor of love. If your not totally psyched to get on the hero of hyrule when you select him from the char select screen then your doing it wrong



VVVV:dedede:
:olimar: welcome BRO TAKE A SEAT
 

Asdioh

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Can someone tell me why Marth supposedly beats Snake? Other than the fact that he can juggle Snake if he's good at reading, just like plenty of other characters can?
 

Tarmogoyf

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Asdioh, Ally loses to MikeHAZE every time they play in tourney lol. He lost to him at Evo and Active Gamers. Good enough.

IMO, it's because Snake loses if he gets behind.
 

Chuee

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FOW never beat M2K, except in a friendly where m2k lost his stock at like 50% cuz he messed up a gimp.
 

Kewkky

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So basically what you're saying the BBR who makes the ruleset decided to ditch that when making the tier list so they have produced a tier list based off of theory craft and that doesn't include the current rule set and you expect players to accept this tier list or these reasons? Failed tier list and BBR clearly doesn't know what its doing good job I'm done with this after all.
AlmostLegendary, you're being ignorant again. They formed their tierlist around THEIR rules, not the rules of other people and other TOs. Have you seen their rules' thread? What's wrong with making THEIR tierlist, reflected by THEIR rules? Tourneys without their rules re exempt to this because it's not THEIR rules, so the gameplay isn't like how they envision top Brawl to be, per sé.

And it's not theorycrafting. Have you seen Japan's tierlist, and Mexico's? They're both different from ours, but both have some things in common. With the difference in their rulesets and ours, obviously there's gonna be some differences (as well s who the top players play). If there are no pseudo-stalling limits, then people who can plank and scrooge will just do better... When you think about it, most MKs play honorably and approach instead of ledgecamp and scrooge which they are completely allowed to do according to the SBR's ruleset. And so, since it's allowed by the SBR's ruleset, then the SBR's tierlist should reflect just that.

Understand?


PS: I was gonna post this like 2-3 hours ago, but got caught up watching MH3 vids.
 

DMG

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It's called learning the matchup. Being a top MK, or a top player in general, doesn't exempt you from losing a matchup that you win but don't understand completely.
 

Paradoxical

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and then Tyrant beat him a few weeks later at Evo.
Well, it is in Meta Knight's favour and he simply adapted to the matchup.

But it can be done, although Meta Knight will naturally limit those outcomes.

It's called learning the matchup. Being a top MK, or a top player in general, doesn't exempt you from losing a matchup that you win but don't understand completely.
Obviously.
 

Chuee

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No, you see first time Tyrant obviously knew nothing about the MU. Then, he learned the MU and beat him next time they played. MK v Ness is a very hard MU for Ness when the MK knows it.
 

Paradoxical

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I'm not saying it's not a hard matchup.

Meta Knight probably hard-counters Ness and Lucas alike.

What I'm saying is, FOW had shown it could be done, and if we uploaded more videos of Low Tiers winning and generally showing the Smash Bros community how to effectively play these characters, the results would be beneficial.

Read Xyro's post on the last page.
 

DMG

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FOW showed that it could be done... when the other person allows it to be done lol.

It's one thing to show people how to effectively play a low tier, but I don't believe in rising a character because "It can be done" when most of the time, "It can be done because this person allowed it to happen" lol.

MK goes around 65:35 with Lucas unfortunately. Could be harder.
 

Tiersie

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The SBR assumed ledge stalling, ICG, no ledge grab limit, and all around "gayness" was legal in most events. If pit ledge stalls CORRECTLY then he does ALOT better.
SBR Recommended Rules said:
Stalling is banned.

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable.
You literally use the word stalling in your defence of why pit gets a buff in tier tier list placing.

Why is ledge stalling not considered stalling, it is exactly the same thing mentioned in the ruleset.
 

Paradoxical

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MK doesn't hard counter Lucas.
He really does. Gimping, killing, and damage-racking abilities put Lucas and pretty much everyone else in low/bottom tier to shame.

65:35. That's the way it is with Ness, and Ness has better options on how to deal with Meta Knight.

FOW showed that it could be done... when the other person allows it to be done lol.

It's one thing to show people how to effectively play a low tier, but I don't believe in rising a character because "It can be done" when most of the time, "It can be done because this person allowed it to happen" lol.

MK goes around 65:35 with Lucas unfortunately. Could be harder.
I suppose.

What if FOW had put more time into the matchup? Would it make a difference?

Probably not, due to the character disadvantage, but it could be a start.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying by the way, just trying to imagine future possibilities.
 

Chuee

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lmao you obviously know nothing about Lucas. First off.
Gimping: Good Lucas' don't get gimped by mk
Killing: MK's killing without gimping isn't great. Either way neither has a clear advantage in killing.
Damage racking: Ok, then mk 65-35's the whole cast because he can rack damage.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
My believe is that once you get into 65:35 or harder matchups that are already established as such, the amount of time that the losing end puts into the matchup frankly doesn't matter, or that the additional benefits/knowledge you would gain from putting in that additional time is extremely small.

Matchups around 65:35, IMO it's basically if the winning side knows the matchup, barring a huge mistake like an SD or an early stock loss, it's game for the other person.

Tiersie: HE MEANT EDGE CAMPING, DANGIT XYRO CMON MAN lol

Edge camping. Edge stalling? There is nothing like that. There is planking, and scrooging, but as far as the official SBR ruleset is concerned, these are legitimate strategies.

Chuee, MK vs Lucas is not a fun/pleasant matchup once the MK knows it. 65:35 frankly is NOT out of the ballpark. Wario QUESTIONABLY goes 6:4 with MK (I think it's worse assuming MK is not restricted in any way). You would be crazy to think that Lucas handles MK better or just as well as Wario man lol.
 

Paradoxical

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lmao you obviously know nothing about Lucas. First off.
Gimping: Good Lucas' don't get gimped by mk
Killing: MK's killing without gimping isn't great. Either way neither has a clear advantage in killing.
Damage racking: Ok, then mk 65-35's the whole cast because he can rack damage.
Meta Knight can gimp Lucas easily. Dair, Dair, Dair, Shuttle Loop. Done.

Meta Knight simply CAN gimp Lucas. Even then, Lucas pretty much doesn't have any options to deal with a camping Meta Knight, yet he gets ***** if he's forced to approach.

Meta Knight basically DOES 65:35 the entire cast.

Lucas can't deal with Meta Knights that know the matchup, stop pretending otherwise.

Ness does better, because his tools and programming characteristics allow him to do so.

But even then, Ness still gets *****.
 

Chuee

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Chuee, MK vs Lucas is not a fun/pleasant matchup once the MK knows it. 65:35 frankly is NOT out of the ballpark. Wario QUESTIONABLY goes 6:4 with MK (I think it's worse assuming MK is not restricted in any way). You would be crazy to think that Lucas handles MK better or just as well as Wario man lol.
Irrelevant. Lucas handles planking better. Lucas has a projectile. Lucas doesn't get gimped as easily.

Meta Knight can gimp Lucas easily. Dair, Dair, Dair, Shuttle Loop. Done.
lmao

Meta Knight simply CAN gimp Lucas. Even then, Lucas pretty much doesn't have any options to deal with a camping Meta Knight, yet he gets ***** if he's forced to approach.
Lucas has a projectile.

EDIT: Clowsui: Every Lucas BESIDES TYR says it's 60-40. Tyr has really weird MU opinions. He said it could be argued for 65-35 just because M2K can gimp almost any character.

Meta Knight basically DOES 65:35 the entire cast.
No he doesn't.

Lucas can't deal with Meta Knights that know the matchup, stop pretending otherwise.
depends, if the Lucas is better he can win.

Ness does better, because his tools and programming characteristics allow him to do so.
People need to stop saying this BS. Ness gets gimped WAY easier. GR CG leads into a gimp. He gets juggled. The only thing Ness has over Lucas is more horozontal air range, which isn't much.

But even then, Ness still gets *****.
Paradox, please don't post here anymore, you're making a fool of yourself.

EDIT: Clowsui: Every Lucas BUT TYR says it's 60-40. Tyr has really strange MU opinions. Last time I heard him talk about it he said it could be arguably 65-35 because m2k can gimp almost any character.
 

DMG

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Lol projectile.

You mean one that you can shield and punish? Or PS fairly easily?

As for gimping... IDK man Lucas might get back to the stage, but the damage he should take is... a lot lol.
 

Sosuke

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Wario's bike/ wheels are projectiles.
 

Kewkky

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Paradox, please don't post here anymore, you're making a fool of yourself.
Oh, and you're not? You stated an opinion, everyone's disagreeing, and you're closing yourself to whatever they say. Why even respond back? Hell, I know MK CAN gimp Lucas from experience. No amounts of zap-jumping, PKT2ing, PSI-magnet gliding will save you if you're at stage level (or slightly higher) getting dair chained by MK.

Is everyone wrong? Or are YOU wrong?
 

Chuee

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Lol projectile.

You mean one that you can shield and punish? Or PS fairly easily?

As for gimping... IDK man Lucas might get back to the stage, but the damage he should take is... a lot lol.
PUNISH? LOL
Dude, if they're punishing PKF you're doing it terribly wrong. Either way it still forces mk to approach.
Every Lucas vs MK video i've seen, i've never seen MK gimp a Lucas in a way where the Lucas could not have made it back. Of course Lucas takes an ***load of damage recovering vs MK, but Lucas can do much the same to MK offstage.

EDIT: Kewwky: You're forgetting something. IM the one that mains Lucas. IM the one that knows what my character's weakness' are. YOU don't. Trying to argue MU ratios with people that don't even know anything about said character is just sad. Your experience? I doubt PR even has any Lucas' and the ones they do have probably can't angle worth ****.

Also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bFOBdTJFhg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R43IywCZTIU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYw46IHIPM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAfjrztcE54&feature=related

You don't see Tyr ever get gimped in these. Im don't feel like getting Galeon vids but he never got gimped either.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Chuee, your bias is annoying me and I don't even care about this discussion.

How can Lucas do to MK what MK can do to him while recovering? MK is the best gimping character in the game. Lucas...isn't.
 

Chuee

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Chuee, your bias is annoying me and I don't even care about this discussion.

How can Lucas do to MK what MK can do to him while recovering? MK is the best gimping character in the game. Lucas...isn't.
*sigh*
LOL BIAS LOL BIAS. LOL U BIAS.
Hey guess what. You're pro-ban right?
Well, you're opinion on the MU is biased.
Ok lets get a good old quote from mah buddy Pink Fresh.
Pink Fresh said:
He uses his glide
-PK freeze travels the fastest horizontally, so I would advise that. He'll have to drop gilde or get hit. Both put him in baf positions.
- getting hit: He'll be sussceptible to a zapjump pk fire edgeguard KO.
Not getting hit: He won't have his glide and will be quite far away from the stage. He also should have wasted 1-3 jumps at this point.

-Pk Thunder: That **** kills MK. OK, if they glide, but try to go really low to avoid pk freeze, then pk thunder and make a straight line going down. Assuming, MK is level or below the stage just go down then, bring the PKT back up. They'll either:
- Keep going down and die (not likely)
- Go up into the PKT.

That's just for glide. That is ths HARDEST part of edgeguarding him everything else he does gets ***** by PKT.

BUT

to be more specific, I'll elaborate.

Once his first glide is gone, it becomes free damage. he Tries to drill rush? PK freeze/PKT, that's done. Just hit Drill rush with the tail of PKT, then loop it to knock him away again. PK freeze is self explanatory; just hit him lol. He tries to tornado? Nahhh not in mah house. Now this one is kinda tricky. It depends on how far away MK is. The most safe/smart thing to do is Pk fire. It ALWAYS works, unless your aim just sucks or something. if they're mad far away you can start charging a smash attack, preferably Fsmash, in case they decide to mash B and go above you. If you use Usmash/Dsmash, they can probably return safely. If they're far away, you can also PK freeze (not worth it), or PKT (risky). I'd just stick to PK fire. If they decide to teleport, just guess where they'll land and punish them. Uhh, what else. OH shuttle loop. PK fire, PKT, Dair from above, Bair from above all work. Really like, It's NOT hard to edgeguard MK's. I've made some people get frustrated (heard them groan, suck their teeth lol) because they couldn't recover.
Also, I've gotten incredibly close to actually gimping a mk with Lucas.
 

Kewkky

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EDIT: Kewwky: You're forgetting something. IM the one that mains Lucas. IM the one that knows what my character's weakness' are. YOU don't. Trying to argue MU ratios with people that don't even know anything about said character is just sad. Your experience? I doubt PR even has any Lucas' and the ones they do have probably can't angle worth ****.
Oh yes, because you also use MK at a top level and tried to gimp yourself, and found out that MK can't gimp Lucas AND Lucas can gimp MK. You DEFINITELY know your stuff again, Chuee, just like you always do in all of your single-lined posts everywhere in the tactical forums that I am so frustrated of seeing.

Why don't you play the MU from both sides, instead of trying to convince yourself that I don't know how to angel a simple PKT2?

I don't care what Tyr has or hasn't suffered, the character is named "Lucas" not "Tyr". You wanna see me kirbicide an MK? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY3IJqvOyZE

You are biased, Chuee. Me being pro-ban doesn't affect the reality of the situation, since obviously both anti- and pro- are talling you that MK can gimp Lucas.
 

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*sigh*
LOL BIAS LOL BIAS. LOL U BIAS.
Hey guess what. You're pro-ban right?
Well, you're opinion on the MU is biased.
Nah I don't play Brawl so I'm neither pro nor anti-ban. I just argue pro-ban because it's more fun.

Even if I was pro, why would that matter? Maybe if I mained MK or something.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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You are biased, Chuee. Me being pro-ban doesn't affect the reality of the situation, since obviously both anti- and pro- are talling you that MK can gimp Lucas.
lol. I like this sentence. It kinda feels like you're implying that Lucas is some shining champion set to dethrone MK and him getting gimped/not getting gimped is the difference maker.

I know you're not but I'm tired and...uhh don't feel like finishing my post. :/
 

Chuee

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Oh yes, because you also use MK at a top level and tried to gimp yourself, and found out that MK can't gimp Lucas AND Lucas can gimp MK. You DEFINITELY know your stuff again, Chuee, just like you always do in all of your single-lined posts everywhere in the tactical forums that I am so frustrated of seeing.
No, because i've played against MK's and seen top Lucas' play against top MK's and do well.
I never said Lucas can gimp MK. I said that Lucas can do the same that mk can do to him offstage. Lrn2read. Also, Im tired of your silly pro-ban posts in tactical.


Why don't you play the MU from both sides, instead of trying to convince yourself that I don't know how to angel a simple PKT2?
both sides? I've played Lucas' with MK before, but it doesn't really matter since my mk sucks.

I don't care what Tyr has or hasn't suffered, the character is named "Lucas" not "Tyr". You wanna see me kirbicide an MK? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY3IJqvOyZE

You are biased, Chuee. Me being pro-ban doesn't affect the reality of the situation, since obviously both anti- and pro- are talling you that MK can gimp Lucas.
MU ratios are determined at high levels of play. If high level Lucas players don't get gimped then more than likely the character doesn't get gimped in the MU.

Oh, yes I am so biased because I play Lucas.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BIASED
Also, no get it right. A bunch of scrubs and Pro-ban people that don't play EITHER character at a high level of play are telling me he gets gimped.


EDIT: ****, this is why I hate discussing Lucas in tactical. Always get a bunch of idiots that know nothing about him.
I'm done.
 
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