The Official Fox Stage Guide - Discussion 5: Castle Siege

[MegaMan087]

The Complete Fox Stage Guide

• Introduction
• Format
• Current Stage Discussion
• Past Stage Discussions
• Links
• Thanks

Introduction
Welcome! After spending many hours lurking around these boards I decided that it was time that I attempted to help further my (and hopefully others) understanding of the space animal that is Fox McCloud. In an attempt to centralize some of the information out there I am proposing we as a community have some intelligent discussion on specific stages. Not only will the help us with our playing, but will provide newer people a place to go to locate something quickly.

Format
Obviously not all stages are created equal. This can be seen by simply looking at the SBR'S Recommended Rule List. It's pretty obvious that talking about the stages in a specific order is the most efficient way of doing this, so why not just do it in the order that the SBR proposed?

Here is the order that the stages will be brought up:

Starter
Battlefield - Finished 2/11/09
Final Destination - Finished 2/18/09
Smashville - Finished 2/24/09
Yoshi's Island - Finished 3/18/09

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege - Current
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Once the stage has been discussed then I will be posting a summary and rating of said stage back here on the main page.

Rating System:

1: Avoid these stages at all costs. Either the bad ***** the good by a significant margin or the majority of the cast destroys Fox here. Ban these if possible.

2: These stages are pretty bad, but could be playable if necessary. You should never pick these stages.

3: This is a pretty neutral stage for Fox. While there are no major disadvantages here, there are no advantages either. Pick only if necessary.

4: An overall good choice for Fox. These are the stages that look good on paper but have one or two issues that truly hold it back from being an amazing stage. Solid choices picking-wise.

5: Great choice for picking/counter-picking. Fox has lots of advantages here and little to no disadvantages. These should be the stages that you know inside and out. These should be your first choice.

Posted after each summary is the percent needed to kill Mario using a U-Smash. All the tests were done on human opponents with proper DI.

So let's get this going!

Current Stage Discussion

Castle Siege
Started 3/18/09

Past Stage Discussions

Battlefield
Started 2/3/09 ~ Ended 2/11/09

Rating: 5/5​

Overview:
This stage has a lot of strong points for Fox, but in the long run it’s all about the match-up. It is spacious enough to promote laser usage, while at the same time small enough that Fox can reach his opponents anywhere. The relatively low ceiling means that killing off the top is a very viable option, but with Fox being a very light character the same is applied to him.

The main focal point is the platforms. On the plus side they assist with killing by significantly lowering the percent needed for the U-Smash to be successful. They are all the correct height for SH aerials, namely Bair and Uair. However they can also be a hindrance as many other characters benefit from them just as much, if not more.

Overall, Battlefield is a very nice option for Fox. The good defiantly outweighs the bad in terms of killing, edge guarding and maneuverability. Here Fox’s air game is strong, and that’s where the majority of his strings start anyways.

Killing Percent:
Bottom: 104%
Middle: 96%
Top: 86%

Final Destination
Started 2/11/09 ~ Ended 2/18/09

Rating: 5/5​

Overview:
A great stage for Fox. With correct spacing and smart approaches he can control the majority of the stage. The overall size of the stage also helps more then hurts. The ceiling is high, but U-Smash can still kill at a respectable percent. Easier laser camping/pressuring is another bonus on a stage this size.

There aren’t that many disadvantages on Final Destination. The lack of platforms puts a slight limit on creativity, but Fox doesn’t benefit from them as much as most of his high tier opponents. The lip under the edge can kill you if you aren’t versed in the Curved Fire Fox, but other characters suffer from this as well and they don’t have the option to get around it.

Once again, match ups are important, as a bad one can still spell doom for Fox. However, when played smartly, Final Destination is a solid choice and you can’t go wrong with it.

Killing Percent:
104%

Smashville
Started 2/18/09 ~ Ended 2/24/09

Rating 5/5​

Overview:

Smashville as a whole is a very good stage for Fox. It is extremely similar to Final Destination. Fox’s killing potential off the top is the same and off the sides is near identical as well. Recovery isn’t hampered by anything on Smashville, which is a definite plus. Once again, using the laser to rack up some percent is relatively easy here. The overall main platform size can either be a help or hindrance depending on the match-up; help because Fox is quick enough to cover the distance, but hindrance because approaching/controlling is difficult with Fox.

The moving platform is the one big difference from Final Destination and can be both a blessing and a curse. The platform is higher then the bottom ones on Battlefield, so some characters who could reach through those can’t here (Falco). This added height also makes it easier to kill with a U-Smash. When the platform is off to the side it can aid in recovery. However it is important to note that these advantages apply to the opponent as well. The platform does have some downsides however.

Kheldar summed it up nicely:

Speaking as a player, the platform (the only thing that separates this from FD or BF) screws me up way too often. It follows Fox's aerial movement almost perfectly so that he can get hooked on it and take something like Snake's U-tilt. On the other hand it means Fox can chase under it. With that said what character does better on top of Fox on a platform then below it? Not many. Maybe someone with explosives or a killer D-air. Fox's U-air beats practically every D-air though.

Killing Percent:
Bottom: 104%
Platform: 94%

Yoshi's Island
Started 2/24/09 ~ Ended 3/18/09

Overview:
Coming soon!

Links
List of specific characters and their best/worst stages for counter picking purposes.

Thanks
Those who have helped so far!

 

[MegaMan087]

Reserved for whatever reason!

 

[Zhamy]

Usually disadvantage Fox, although very slight. The platforms, you can Usmash through, but that's hardly worth the advantage other characters get from it. Marth, for example. I'm sure we could all think of countless others, but this isn't a stage that is particularly good /or/ bad for Fox, although dpeending on the matchup, it could work against him.

That being said, it's a decent stage.

 

[§witch]

It's not a bad stage for fox, but so many other characters do better than fox does on battlefield.

 

[Sukai]

Slightly anti-Fox.
To contrast his great speed and navigation, his short range keeps him fom making good use of anything (I've only succeeded in Up smashing through a platform once, and it wasn't so rewarding).
Compare to almost everyone else, who has atleast one ground move that hits well through the platform.
And air game, whew >.<
Fox shines brightest here, no pun intended.
Being able to get in a quick aerial from under the platforms is great for Fox due to his fast falling and low ending lag.
This neutralizes his disadvantages at the most.
Unless you're doing Fox dittos, expect to work a bit harder than you normally would.

 

[soul ark]

i think it's pro fox up-smash only goes slighly over the platforms you can play a good air game while your opponent is on the platforms fire fox works really well under the stage (you can hit the slant and still touch the edge)

knux rouge is right you do have to work harder here but the rewards are great

 

[SnowballBob33]

Personally, I hate battlefield in every way shape and form. I jump around a lot when i play, and the platforms completely mess up my game. Lasers don't work as well with the top platform being there. Fox already sux at approaching and the platforms don't help any. You get punished when u land on them more than you can punish others. Maybe it's just me but I think fox sux on BF.

 

[KheldarVII]

Battlefield is Fox's best neutral.

 

[MegaMan087]

Battlefield is Fox's best neutral.

Care to explain?

I might as well throw in my two cents. (I'm really not saying this just because of the above post) I think that this is Fox's second best neutral strictly because the size of the main platform, it's a little small which makes Fox's already bad approach game worse, and the platforms, I feel they hurt more then help. This is because if an opponent is on them, Fox has very limited ways of reaching them without becoming predictable. Other then that, Fox has a relatively easy time killing off the top and sides, which is a plus. Recovery is also fairly easy on this stage.

 

[KheldarVII]

Battlefield is loved by aerialists.
Fox can reach you anywhere on Battlefield so any character that is struggling around is in danger.
Lasers are at perfect pressure intervals and distances.
B-air gets a boost due to platforms and pratfalls.
U-air kills earlier.
Grab jump release gets a boost.
D-smash kills earlier.
Fox has a better time gimping.


The disadvantages... rock hard defense characters. Most people I play don't want to fight my Fox on Battlefield. Fox moves faster here and has increased combo and killing potential.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Wouldn't his best neutral be FD. What characters would fox have an advantage over that wouldn't be anywhere else?

 

[soul ark]

Wouldn't his best neutral be FD. What characters would fox have an advantage over that wouldn't be anywhere else?

Several things i need to point out

FD is a very linear stage if your in an awkward situation under the stage you have little to no chance at all of recovering.

Dont even get me started on chaingrabs as huge as FD is dedede ice climbers.... it's just not a good look.

You have more options and opportunities in battle field than in final destination which is a wide expansion of space in which you run around hoping to follow up attacks.

In summation fox benefits from platforms

 

[MegaMan087]

Several things i need to point out

FD is a very linear stage if your in an awkward situation under the stage you have little to no chance at all of recovering.

Dont even get me started on chaingrabs as huge as FD is dedede ice climbers.... it's just not a good look.

You have more options and opportunities in battle field than in final destination which is a wide expansion of space in which you run around hoping to follow up attacks.

In summation fox benefits from platforms

Fact.

Some more info. None of Fox's ground attacks reach the platforms. However, most, if not all, of his SHed aerials do.

 

[Sorgens]

I agree that this is Fox's best Neutral stage. While the platforms do benefit characters more, it is easier to get off ground to aerial combos due to landing on them. Platforms also mean that if you throw out a rare Firefox on stage you can move to a platform to minimize air-time lag.

You can't outspace his lasers, which is great for pressure. Slanted edges make recovering a little more easier and b-air'ing an opponent off the ledge who just lost his invinc frames.

I like BF's blastlines. Both for surviving and killing, they aren't too far away and not too close. Gives Fox a decent chance to kill before being killed.

All in all, plenty of space to maneuver around while chaining attacks together (I love this stage for Nairs and Fairs). You can be a bit defensive here while still pressuring your opponent.

Oh and yea it's easy to shine-gimp here.

 

[soul ark]

huh what about the up-smash. fox's feet have reach

 

[SnowballBob33]

Several things i need to point out

FD is a very linear stage if your in an awkward situation under the stage you have little to no chance at all of recovering.

Dont even get me started on chaingrabs as huge as FD is dedede ice climbers.... it's just not a good look.

You have more options and opportunities in battle field than in final destination which is a wide expansion of space in which you run around hoping to follow up attacks.

In summation fox benefits from platforms

Fox doesn't get cg by d3, and I would never pick fox vs IC. Ok, ur saying fox benefits from platforms, but what characters don't? You wouldnt want to play marth on BF. When would fox's advantage be greater than ur opponents?

 

[soul ark]

Lumpy and laggy characters are doomed by fox in this stage dedede which may be the exception to the rule can easily be overrun with good speed tactics
eg.
SHDL
SHAD
various d-air and up-tilt combos,
back air when your opponent is on the platform.
and i would even say the shine dash combo to death works the best in this stage

i said dedede but i really wanted to say falco who is a much more hopeless match-up in FD

the general rule of thumb in BF is the slower your opponent is the more you should take him here of course there's many exceptions to the rule

 

[harpuia190]

hmmmm as for battlefield, i usually ban this if i have nothing else to ban

as i think it was mentioned before, this stage isnt neccessarily the worst stage for fox, but the advantages it gives to other characters, especially higher tiers are better than his

when i play here i fee like my options are limited, while the opponets can capitalize more efficiently

 

[Tim-Tim]

yes, a very neutral stage for fox.
platforms can save lives, but be aware that the platform also cut off some blaster support.
this helps others in avoiding more damage than they would normally take in stages like FD.
easier to recover from under the stage compared to that from FD.

 

[SnowballBob33]

hmmmm as for battlefield, i usually ban this if i have nothing else to ban

as i think it was mentioned before, this stage isnt neccessarily the worst stage for fox, but the advantages it gives to other characters, especially higher tiers are better than his

when i play here i fee like my options are limited, while the opponets can capitalize more efficiently

this is what i was thinkin

 

[_X_]

Battlefield is Fox's best neutral.

*PLZ 2 REED QHOTE BLOW*

It's not a bad stage for fox, but so many other characters do better than fox does on battlefield.

Switch is right, IMO. It's not that this stage is 'bad' for Fox just a lot of his close/bader match ups do better on it. Although... well it is kinda bad for Fox >_> ... then again...

In any case it's hard to say. But I wouldn't say it's Fox's best neutral.

 

[MegaMan087]

I compiled parts of this discussion into a quick overview. If anyone thinks something should be changed or added let me know. I'll start the discussion on FD tomorrow.

Overview:
This stage has a lot of strong points for Fox, but in the long run it’s all about the match-up. It is spacious enough to promote laser usage, while at the same time small enough that Fox can reach his opponents anywhere. The relatively low ceiling means that killing off the top is a very viable option, but with Fox being a very light character the same is applied to him.

The main focal point is the platforms. On the plus side they assist with killing by significantly lowering the percent needed for the U-Smash to be successful. They are all the correct height for SH aerials, namely Bair and Uair. However they can also be a hindrance as many other characters benefit from them just as much, if not more. Fox’s inability to hit through the platforms from the ground is a glaring weakness.

Overall, Battlefield is a very nice option for Fox. The good defiantly outweighs the bad in terms of killing, edge guarding and maneuverability. Here Fox’s air game is strong, and that’s where the majority of his strings start anyways.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I believe that Battle Field is an amazing level for Fox. I will write my reasons once I get out of class.

Edit: Nevermind. I didn't read megaman's over view. I'd say it's pretty accurate.

 

[MegaMan087]

Ok week one was pretty successful if you ask me. I have put together a breif overview of Battlefield. So now it is time to move onto Final Destination!

Thoughts on this stage? Any particully good Fox strategies? Is this stage good for camping/attacking? How is Fox's recovery/killing power on thiss stage? Let's get this ball rolling.

 

[soul ark]

I hate FD soo much too much running too much effort

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Lol I like Final Destination because there IS lots of running and I can pewpew while they qq. (I'm sorry I had to say it.)

 

[Zhamy]

Lol I like Final Destination because there IS lots of running and I can pewpew while they qq. (I'm sorry I had to say it.)

I don't know who you are anymore.

Anyway, FD is like battlefield in terms of matchups - some characters fare better than Fox does, although FD is definitely a good stage for Fox.

 

[GwJ]

I love FD as Fox. So many opportunities for Fox to get the upperhand.

 

[skizbe]

Battlefield gives Fox a disadvantage because he is very light and the low ceiling makes him suceptable to easy kills at low percentages any character with decent strength. His U-smash however tears apart any character that is anything but heavy. Short hope double laser hits on the lower platforms, and the platform is flat which allows for camping and laser spam to rack up damage fairly easily.
Overall in my opinion it is basically as neutral as you can find for fox.

 

[MegaMan087]

Battlefield gives Fox a disadvantage because he is very light and the low ceiling makes him suceptable to easy kills at low percentages any character with decent strength. His U-smash however tears apart any character that is anything but heavy. Short hope double laser hits on the lower platforms, and the platform is flat which allows for camping and laser spam to rack up damage fairly easily.
Overall in my opinion it is basically as neutral as you can find for fox.

Thanks for the input on Battlefield! I'll try to work some of that information into the next time I update the stage overview. What do you think about Final Destination?

 

[Zhamy]

Battlefield gives Fox a disadvantage

Overall in my opinion it is basically as neutral as you can find for fox

wut.

10wuts and Xiivi is going to give me an infractions

 

[harpuia190]

Hmmmm FD... well i would say its my second favorite neutral, as for why ummmmmmm

its nice and open plenty of room to do all the cool things that fox can do

for majority most mathups dont mater too much, cept maybe for like a diddy or a pikachu(which is a terrible matchup anyway)

i feel FD helps fox alot more than Battlefield does

if i think of more ill post it

 

[skizbe]

I really like FD with fox simply because of his speed. Lots of room and a high ceiling make survival fairly easy. Also helps with camping until you force your opponent to make a mistake you can truly punish.
Cons: easy to get slaughtered by chain grabs.
Overall I think it is a good stage for Fox(but not his best). I like that there are no platforms for your opponent to hide on. If you're good at short hops, then his d-air can punish any mistake.
Watch for grabs!

 

[NightShadow6]

Ok FD is a great stage for fox first reason is the blaster u have plenty of room to camp if they come near u bthrow them lol. But the reason i love this stage is because of fox's pure speed theres nothing to interuppt ur approach on this, and as for approach i say fair for u can control it to go behind them which is good for mind games then do watever and as for killing. Its a little hard IMO since of the high ceiling. As for the side kills its not so bad bair is very good here for gimping. use that shine spike like no tommorow. and shine stall as its perfect because of the no platforms. If this is helpful in anyway then ur welcome lol. 1 more tip for recovery us fair since it gives u a boost in ur jump.

 

[Sukai]

Just like Battlefield, it all depends on the character Fox is playing against.
If it's Ike, or Snake, Fox can play very well on Final Destination, give him alot of space to roam and keep the opponent guessing, but vs characters like Pikachu, Incest Climbers, Kirby, Falco who need alot of space to CG/Infinite/Projectile camp, this isn't the best of stages for Fox. On the flip side, Fox isn't too hindered by the death edges of the stage compared to most of the cast. Big battleground makes for less punishment for bad-average DI.
Maneuverability in this case, is a great stage for Fox, he has alot of roaming space, the lasers are hard to escape due to no platform or special stage element that allows the opponent to escape it.

Not as questionable of a stage as Battlefield, but still fairly average for Fox. Nothing too special that isn't naturally expected out of Fox.

I'm shocked no one made a No items, Fox only, Final Destination joke yet.

 

[_X_]

FD is fine for Fox in most of his match ups.

I don't like being out projectile on this one. A spammy Falco or Wolf can make it annoying to approach but I guess you can always play the shine game.

 

[Sorgens]

Eh this is my least favorite neutral for Fox. High ceilings are good for survival and don't necessarily hinder U-smash all that much. A lot of mobility room and no laser hindrance is ideal for Fox. The lip on the ledge is lame and I still occasionally get caught in it when knocked aside.

A decent stage, but other characters can perform a lot better than Fox can here.

 

[Sorgens]

Bleh double post my apologies.

 

[M@v]

FD is fox's best neutral, if not one his top stage. So much free space for aerial approaches, camping, and spacing. Fox also doesn't get screwed over by FD's ledges thanks to curved firefox. I often CP FD when im fox if we haven't already played it in the set.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Also Final Destination makes for some cool ledge tricks. I remember when I used to ditto Rookie online. He would always wall techs to rising forward airs. I was like "Pro..." then I started to do it when I am trying to show boat.

Basically Final Destination is too good because of all the space and options Fox has because of the space amirite?