The Official Illinois / Wisconsin Brawl Power Rankings Thread! *NEW UPDATE (1-22-12)*

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've talked about 2 stock before with people, it's doable.

1 stock isn't doable imo.

 

[Zwarm]

I want to play Squirtle in tournament dammit!

 

[Quik17]

Why's that Red Ryu? 1-stock seems definitely doable.

Doubles is fine the way it is imo.

And I completely agree with DLA. I would rather not do this at all than do it as a side tournament. If we're gonna roll with this idea, then have it replace singles all together. If people start *****ing we can always go back next DB

 

[Akashi]

just got off work, get rdy for a small essay in about 30mins :o

 

[Akashi]

Alright, let me start off saying I'm not opposed to rule changing, especially if it makes Brawl more enjoyable without TAKING anything from it (banning, to be specific). What I want to emphasize is that 1 stock Bo3/Bo5 will ruin our current ruleset, counterpicking, and overall character MUs/metagame. My honest suggestion is: if we want to try something new, using a 2 stock Bo3 unity ruleset would be ideal.

Obviously Brawl isn't a traditional fighter, nor have we ever tried to revolve our ruleset around anything we, the community, haven't made ourselves. That being said, this new idea of making Brawl "faster" and more efficient in playing out tournaments has its pros, and its cons. For one, Brawl won't become faster, but rather the entire set will be. Characters will camp harder, and NOBODY will want to approach anymore. I can guarantee you people will try to run the clock, and MUs like Marth vs. Falco, Snake vs. D3, Ganon vs. ICs (lol), etc will become longer and less entertaining. In regards of efficiency... yes, I will agree that tournaments will be run quicker. However, this is BRAWL guys, this game is ALL about patience and utilizing your spacing like you're making a move in chess. One can only strip so much from a game that absolutely requires you to not approach (at times) before it becomes something completely different.

Counterpicking will also become hectic, and the adaption of player vs. player will also become less utilized. An example of this would be Street Fighter. You have 2 "lives" per match, and in most cases, you use your first one to feel your opponent out. When you lose your first match, you lock your opponent into their character, and therefore you can take all that you learned from the previous match, and counterpick. In Brawl... that won't be the case. If you lose the first match, not only do you have to choose between re-adapting to a different stage (your choice to CP a new stage, obv), but you may have to re-adapt to your opponent's NEW character. Honestly, how s that fair to anyone? And before you mention, "we can just lock the winner with their character," how is that fair to them when you can hard CP them to a stage AND character? Should Arty be punished for winning game 1, and then CP'd to lylat against a IC? Anyways, that's sort of a tangent, but I hope you get what I mean.

Finally, even though I slightly covered this in my last point, character MUs will change way drastically. Characters like Falco, ICs, Lucario, D3, and Snake all hold HUGE advantages over respective MUs. Get grabbed by ICs once, and you're dead. Cool, did you learn what you did wrong? Maybe, or maybe you made an input error and died. D3 CGs you once, and you're half-way dead, awesome. Lucario gets to 100% and proceeds to fsmash you with his almighty aura and you died @ 80%... sweet. Even characters like Wario can air-camp and go for early wafts, and there's nothing most characters can do. Having 2 stocks will at least eliminate these mechanics, and give you a comeback tool.

If I had to summarize all of this, I feel like 1stock takes away more than it gives. It takes away depth, adaptation, our metagame, MU tools, and enjoyment (last thing is subjective lol). 2 stocks seems like it could be legit, and I feel like it's the best first stepping stone we can make.

edit: my copy/pasta from notepad made everything messed up <.<

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah I'm with Akashi. People were positive about MK being banned and the same **** happened. All that happened is ICs, Oli became godly and people just tried to CP you with gay *** chars. 1 stock will just emphasize that more. I don't think anyone is going to like getting CGed for one mistake then automatically losing cause of it. It's stupid

Then again people already try to CP me instead of just get better so w/e

W/e you guys do I'll prolly still come but 1 stock is dumb.

 

[Zwarm]

Alright, let me start off saying I'm not opposed to rule changing, especially if it makes Brawl more enjoyable without TAKING anything from it (banning, to be specific). What I want to emphasize is that 1 stock Bo3/Bo5 will ruin our current ruleset, counterpicking, and overall character MUs/metagame. My honest suggestion is: if we want to try something new, using a 2 stock Bo3 unity ruleset would be ideal.

This is worth trying too.

Obviously Brawl isn't a traditional fighter, nor have we ever tried to revolve our ruleset around anything we, the community, haven't made ourselves. That being said, this new idea of making Brawl "faster" and more efficient in playing out tournaments has its pros, and its cons. For one, Brawl won't become faster, but rather the entire set will be. Characters will camp harder, and NOBODY will want to approach anymore. I can guarantee you people will try to run the clock, and MUs like Marth vs. Falco, Snake vs. D3, Ganon vs. ICs (lol), etc will become longer and less entertaining. In regards of efficiency... yes, I will agree that tournaments will be run quicker. However, this is BRAWL guys, this game is ALL about patience and utilizing your spacing like you're making a move in chess. One can only strip so much from a game that absolutely requires you to not approach (at times) before it becomes something completely different.

Just because you will choose to camp, doesn't mean everyone will, just sayin.

Counterpicking will also become hectic, and the adaption of player vs. player will also become less utilized. An example of this would be Street Fighter. You have 2 "lives" per match, and in most cases, you use your first one to feel your opponent out. When you lose your first match, you lock your opponent into their character, and therefore you can take all that you learned from the previous match, and counterpick. In Brawl... that won't be the case. If you lose the first match, not only do you have to choose between re-adapting to a different stage (your choice to CP a new stage, obv), but you may have to re-adapt to your opponent's NEW character. Honestly, how s that fair to anyone? And before you mention, "we can just lock the winner with their character," how is that fair to them when you can hard CP them to a stage AND character? Should Arty be punished for winning game 1, and then CP'd to lylat against a IC? Anyways, that's sort of a tangent, but I hope you get what I mean.

Imo counterpicking would be stupid with this ruleset, and it should just be random neutrals for the whole set instead of counterpicking. Keep the character counterpicking the way it is already.

Finally, even though I slightly covered this in my last point, character MUs will change way drastically. Characters like Falco, ICs, Lucario, D3, and Snake all hold HUGE advantages over respective MUs. Get grabbed by ICs once, and you're dead. Cool, did you learn what you did wrong? Maybe, or maybe you made an input error and died. D3 CGs you once, and you're half-way dead, awesome. Lucario gets to 100% and proceeds to fsmash you with his almighty aura and you died @ 80%... sweet. Even characters like Wario can air-camp and go for early wafts, and there's nothing most characters can do. Having 2 stocks will at least eliminate these mechanics, and give you a comeback tool.

To that same effect, you only have to gimp Falco once, kill Nana once, gimp Snake once, etc.

Pretty sure Lucario isn't stronger when both characters start at once stock, since he has no stock disadvantage to begin with, if anything, he'd be weaker.

Who's to say Wario won't just air camp for two stocks and waft both times? Hell, some do it right now with 3 stocks...

If I had to summarize all of this, I feel like 1stock takes away more than it gives. It takes away depth, adaptation, our metagame, MU tools, and enjoyment (last thing is subjective lol). 2 stocks seems like it could be legit, and I feel like it's the best first stepping stone we can make.

It also makes other characters possibly viable... Pokemon Trainer for instance. Adaptation can still exist in a one stock match, and if it's Bo5, there's still plenty of time to learn.

edit: my copy/pasta from notepad made everything messed up <.<

Responses in red.

Yeah I'm with Akashi. People were positive about MK being banned and the same **** happened. All that happened is ICs, Oli became godly and people just tried to CP you with gay *** chars. 1 stock will just emphasize that more. I don't think anyone is going to like getting CGed for one mistake then automatically losing cause of it. It's stupid

Then again people already try to CP me instead of just get better so w/e

W/e you guys do I'll prolly still come but 1 stock is dumb.

I for one think MK should be legal for this ruleset, but that's just me.

 

[Roller]

1 stock matches?









inb4youallpickupzss

 

[Zwarm]

The only ZSS we have here is Oro, and it's so free.



(And Legan, but he's not free)

But really, I'm not afraid of suit pieces, everyone can pick up ZSS for all I care, just makes it easier for me to win.

 

[Roller]

Your character is broken.

 

[Zwarm]

Who ROB? Lolol, he loses to ZSS so bad, he just has good control over item pieces at the beginning.

 

[Akashi]

Zwarm, you're talking about a lot of what if's, as if they won't USUALLY happen. Just because OUR state chooses not to camp heavy, doesn't mean it won't happen. And there you go,

Imo counterpicking would be stupid with this ruleset, and it should just be random neutrals for the whole set instead of counterpicking. Keep the character counterpicking the way it is already.

and

and if it's Bo5, there's still plenty of time to learn.

was exactly what I was talking about. The former is CHANGING the rules of Brawl (not allowing you to counterpick a stage), and the second is backpedaling (a Bo5 will last almost, if not a little shorter, than a 3stock set). Why should we let a random factor like random select be factored in competitive play, especially when stages can change a MU drastically? Do you want to play a Marth as Squirtle on FD? How about a Falco vs. IC on there? Yeah...

Pretty sure Lucario isn't stronger when both characters start at once stock, since he has no stock disadvantage to begin with, if anything, he'd be weaker.

He gets stronger as his % gets higher, that's the point. The biggest advantage you can have against Lucario is getting the 1st stock, and exploiting his poor killing power @ 0%. With one stock, Lucario doesn't have to worry about that.

Who's to say Wario won't just air camp for two stocks and waft both times? Hell, some do it right now with 3 stocks...

Having 2 stocks allows you to comeback on air camping and the like - more time for more openings. Camping/air camping/scrooging/planking will always exist regardless of the stocks, but 1 stock makes it simply easier for you to do all of the above.

It also makes other characters possibly viable... Pokemon Trainer for instance. Adaptation can still exist in a one stock match, and if it's Bo5, there's still plenty of time to learn.

While I agree it makes some character's MORE viable (PKT is still viable with 3 stocks, he just has some impossible MUs), I don't believe you can properly adapt with one stock due to how Brawl works.* Like I said earlier, you have to account counterpicking for both characters AND stages. If you get rid of either of those in competitive play, you're changing the core of what smash is, not just brawl.

*Example of this would be DLA vs. Kain. Say game 1 goes to Tom, and he won as Ganon. Kain CPs FD, and Tom goes Pika. Tom camps the entire round, forces Kain to approach, and eventually 0-100%/kills him. How can Kain adapt to that? He lost to DLA's CG, not DLA. Nothing of the previous match helped him come up with a strategy because Tom's character wasn't locked after he lost; and all DLA needed was one shenanigan/gimmick/whatever to land that grab. Do you see that in other fightings game without infinites? No, because you have multiple lives, and multiple openings to deal minor, yet sufficient damage. Brawl doesn't have that, and you can't warp rules around it to make it so. You lose adaptability when you limit the game to such an extent =/.

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

ok this is why 1 stock matches are stupid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU

 

[Meneil]

1 stock matches will simplify the game and ruin a lot of character strategies, or completely change match-ups... Lucario is an obvious one as people have stated, but think about like Snake vs Falco, where taking that first stock is pretty crucial, and then retaining that momentum is also another big step. We're eliminating momentum completely by having it be 1 stock. That, and one stupid SD will spell the end of the match. At least if someone SDs, and the skill gap is pretty different, the better player will still win.

Please don't do 1 stock matches <.< I'd be willing to try 2 stock, although I wouldn't like that as much either.

 

[KenniSpam!]

lets make baseball 2 innings so the season goes faster

 

[Scythe]

3 things i want to say.
1. As a lucario 1 stock sucks balls. When i played i hardly ever won the first stock of a match so this would be lame,I like the idea of 2 stock alot better.

2. Justin does your car power cig outlet work? If so, I got a screeny for my gamecube and it's got a car adapter. MELEE IN DA CAR I CALL BACKSEAT

3. Also could any that is currently enrolled in any college courses do me a favor? I'm in a marketing research class and my group needed to make a survey and now we just need responses. Here's the link
www.surveymonkey.com/s/leisuretimesurvey
remember enrolled in college only, thanks!

 

[DtJ Composer]

wow reported for advertising.

 

[Kappy]

Yo, I would play Kirby vs IC's on FD anytime. LOL. ****'s free. And I would get rid of CP'ing stages in a heart beat, too. It's the one thing I dislike about Smash.

 

[Scythe]

wow reported for advertising.

: /
advertising what? It's homework lol

 

[Zwarm]

I'm on my phone right now, so I'm not gonna post a whole thing, but to be fair, my what if's were countering the many what if's you had in your post, Tano. We won't truly know how it plays out until we try it.

And we should only care how it affects our own metagame, I don't care how it would affect IC's heavy regions. And that's why I said get rid of counterpicking with this rule, random neutrals. Counterpicking is stupid.

 

[DLA]

Matchups really don't change at all in 1-stock.

For example, meneil mentioned falco vs snake.... She said that taking the first stock is crucial in the 3 stock format. Are you saying that taking the first stock isn't also crucial in the 1 stock format? Because if you take the first stock then you win the game... Doesn't get more crucial than that lol.

Akashi--kain would never CP me to FD, even if I went Ganon game 1. Just like in the 3 stock format. He knows I have a pika, why would the number of stocks make a difference in what stage he counterpicks? I know you mentioned adapting, but what if I picked Pika rd 1 instead of Ganon? He wouldn't be able to adapt anyways and it wouldn't make a difference how many stocks there are.

For everyone mentioning lucario/ICs... It's literally EXACTLY the same. Against Lucario you still want to take his first stock as quickly as possible. He still has 1 weak phase and 1 strong phase. In 3 stocks he has 3 weak phases and 3 strong phases. It's exactly the same.

As for ICs, 1 CG still equals a stock. Just like if you kill Nana once, it should equal a stock for them. There's literally no difference.

The only characters affected really are ZSS and PT...and I don't think anyone really has a problem with giving these chars a buff.

 

[Oro?!]

Counterpicking is fine. what isn't imo, is saying that certain stages are not neutral enough to be played game 1, but ok for games 2 and 3.

Tano its still brawl if you random neutrals, since picking a stage technically isn't part of brawl that determines who.wins or loses straight up. Melee had done random neutral for game one with one mulligan/ban before or during stage selection for years before they moved to stage striking, but it was always melee

in the DLA pika vs kain case, that still happened in 3 stock games. it was definitely. more drawn out though.

the retaining momentum after the first stock is a silly thing to say as well because if you did "retain momentum" then there wouldn't really be a comeback chance anyways. in other words the first stock determined the match.

 

[Oro?!]

I hate auto correct and I love DLaaaah

 

[Pimp Daddy Supreme]

just do whoever deals damage first wins

that's what brawl really boils down to

 

[Akashi]

I'm at work, but I'll post a response around 7.

 

[DLA]

Btw guys, I'd like a spot in red ryu's car to vengeance (if I can't drive). We haven't decided who's in it yet, and I said I wanted to go a long time ago so I call dibs lol.

 

[Oro?!]

just do whoever deals damage first wins

that's what brawl really boils down to

As dumbed down as this is, I agree. Better player will win the sets majority of the time, unless you start adding in random variables.

Gio-sensei.

 

[KenniSpam!]

i cant use all of PT's characters with this rule

i vote no

edit: for serious though, do we have a problem with our events not finishing on time or something? if it's just to add a side event, i know i'd much rather have just legit brawl than half baked brawl and brawl-

 

[hunger!]

Dont you ever talk shiit about brawl- best game ever made!!!

 

[Akashi]

I'm way too tired to write up a response to all of you .-. I'll talk more later tonight, if not tomorrow afternoon for sure.

 

[Oro?!]

How does changing the stocks make it half ***** brawl? It just makes the pacing way faster so that even if you get camped for the entirety of the timer, it won't be a 24 minute set.

 

[_Kain_]

LMFAO you guys make it seem like ICs are easy as **** yet none of you have ever beat Lain, you guys couldn't even beat Cheese. This point of making it seem like seperating and killing Nana is easy is moot. The best player in US atm is a IC player.

My brain esploded.

But I can see where you guys are going, if you are treating it as our region and players at our tournament don't play campy or gay, then I agree 1 stock won't be that bad. But overall it is if you take into account every player from every region and the overall play of this game (campy). And the fact that some of us still have to keep up with the overall metagame that everyone will follow. I would say just try it out once I guess it's no biggy

tl;dr 1 stock might not be that bad for just IL tournies cause we don't play gay, but overall it is cause then we get used to a different metagame then everyone else. And even though we don't play certain characters, 1 stock would still have timeouts and gay characters like Olimar, IC's, and CG chars against any unviable characters would still reign supreme, especially if you take counterpicking into account

Also


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbr4VprH-Q

Comebacks do happen

PS- Getting timed out with a short time is still gay as ****. Even though the timer is shorter, it's still stupid. Do you guys watch SFxT? Getting lamed out by Dhalsim is gay as ****. Now multiply that by like 3 cause brawl has gayer **** then Dhalsim

 

[shrillbert]

Well, reducing the stock to 1 would certainly make the matches go faster. As for the problems that would ensue with Counterpicking, perhaps we should just drop that in IL tourneys.

 

[DLA]

lol I never said ICs are easy... they're actually by far my worst MU and I still have no idea how to fight them lol. Except camping on the SV platform with Ganon and spiking Nana while the platform moves out from under me (shoutouts to Hylian!).

All I'm saying is that 1 stock won't make ICs harder to fight compared to 3 stocks. Killing Nana once over one stock should be exactly the same difficulty as killing Nana three times over three stocks.

Kappy says ICs are easy because he can beat my ICs by ledge stalling with up B... just ignore him lol


But anyways I don't see why you guys are saying that 1 stock will make the game campier/gayer. It should be exactly the same... in fact it may even be easier to deal with camping when there's 1 stock, because you don't have to subject your brain to 8 minutes of trying to approach like a ******. You'll make less mistakes from exhaustion.

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah except if you get grabbed you have no chance of ever coming back at all. You just lose. GG

What's the timer like for 1 stock?

 

[DLA]

Yeah except if you get grabbed you have no chance of ever coming back at all. You just lose. GG

What's the timer like for 1 stock?

Well yeah but if you kill Nana once then ICs lose. Also if it's 3 stocks and you get CG'd to death the first stock, then yeah, there's a chance for you to make a comeback. But if both players are equal skill, then there's an equal chance that instead of making a comeback, you'll just get ***** even harder the next 2 stocks. It all evens out.

Besides, you don't lose the set if you get CGed... you just lose one game. You can make a comeback in the rest of the set.


Timer for 1 stock is 3 mins. Which means that comparatively, it's harder to get timed out. Since the equivalent is 3 stocks 9 mins.

 

[hunger!]

Kain. you suck vs diddy. That is all.

 

[_Kain_]

***** shut up

Well I'm good with going to Vengeance as long as we come back after the tourny before Sunday. Idc if we house or do anything Friday.

 

[KenniSpam!]

http://myanimelist.net/character/16039/Kain

Kain is a killer without mercy. An A-1 class criminal who was responsible for the destruction of 12 planets and over 250,000 murders, Kain was finally captured by the Galaxy Police, and at the cost of his own life, the Jurai emperor. He was then sealed up in a subspace prison and locked in the subspace room at Galaxy Police headquarters.

But 100 years later, Kain broke free and destroyed the G.P.H.Q., and crossed over 26 years in the past to kill one of the direct ascendants of those who imprisoned him - Achika Masaki.

 

[Meneil]

If you really want to do 1 stock matches as the main tournament event, shouldn't you be asking/ taking a vote at the next tournament? Asking about this here just means the only people who will respond are the people who check this forum. There are a lot of people who won't get an opportunity to voice an opinion here.

That way you can have people decide whether it's the main event, side event, or not happening. Rather than having like the 5 people who are here arguing about it / coming to a decision for all of WIL.