The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Red Arremer]

What is this blasphemy?!

Kindness, sympathy, compassion, tolerance...

Who knew such things existed on SWF...

Yea it's disgusting, really.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I would of never guessed Meta Knight to be so far up :O

Welcome to SWF.

 

[choknater]

Well, he is the best character.

I want to see Sonic on the rise. So many people doubted him before. (Many still do.)

 

[Collective of Bears]

I want to see Sonic on the rise. So many people doubted him before. (Many still do.)

Myself included. I do believe I've brought this up before. Sonic has a lot of ATs and speed, but he lacks a lot of key elements (killing, range, priority, etc) that make a character viable.

 

[choknater]

He has the spacing and punishment game to do it, IMO. Some Sonic players like 3000 and Espy and RATS have shown that his speed advantage over much of the cast allows him to control space very well. It's just a matter of finding all the right opportunities to attack, which I'm sure an experienced Sonic player can do. He might not have great priority, but neither does Pikachu (on many of his standard attacks). He reminds me of Pikachu in that he can weave in and out of close situations very easily.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he doesnt hit very hard but he can punish moves that no other characters really can

what other character can punish a full spaced snake tilt, or ike fair or mk down smash

 

[Nixernator]

The only real handicap is killing. You just have to wait, priority and range are easy to get around with his speed.

 

[Samus Aran X]

So is majority of the tier list based on tournaments? Most of the criteria to determine a character's place is based solely on the player him/herself.. I don't understand why chars. like D-D-D are so high and chars. with a variety attacks like ness, samus, TL are so low. Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe someone liked DeDeDe/Mk/Snake, trained them, and pummeled everyone in the tournament because the rest of the competition sucked? There rank decisions should be more lenient towards actual character facts, imo. Yes yes, all the people at the competitive battle scene come bash me now. "SNAKE GRENADE FTW1!11!! MK MACH SPIN VROOM VROOM"

All I need is a general explanation of why, for example, DeDeDe is so high up. I don't care about the criteria like tournaments, character match ups, etc. I just want to know why (for this example) DeDeDe is so high up the chart? What could be so amazing about him that chars. at the bottom of the list don't have?

 

[YagamiLight]

So is majority of the tier list based on tournaments? Most of the criteria to determine a character's place is based solely on the player him/herself.. I don't understand why chars. like D-D-D are so high and chars. with a variety attacks like ness, samus, TL are so low. Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe someone liked DeDeDe/Mk/Snake, trained them, and pummeled everyone in the tournament because the rest of the competition sucked? There rank decisions should be more lenient towards actual character facts, imo. Yes yes, all the people at the competitive battle scene come bash me now. "SNAKE GRENADE FTW1!11!! MK MACH SPIN VROOM VROOM"

All I need is a general explanation of why, for example, DeDeDe is so high up. I don't care about the criteria like tournaments, character match ups, etc. I just want to know why (for this example) DeDeDe is so high up the chart? What could be so amazing about him that chars. at the bottom of the list don't have?

King DeDeDe has the ability to use his Down Throw, run after the character he threw and grab them again. Why is this special? He can grab them BEFORE they can act.

This works on 2/3rds of the cast and ends with the grabee having around 30% more and being offstage when the ordeal is finished. Also: On Donkey Kong he can just do it in place, so if DDD grabs DK it's all over.

 

[Samus Aran X]

King DeDeDe has the ability to use his Down Throw, run after the character he threw and grab them again. Why is this special? He can grab them BEFORE they can act.

This works on 2/3rds of the cast and ends with the grabee having around 30% more and being offstage when the ordeal is finished. Also: On Donkey Kong he can just do it in place, so if DDD grabs DK it's all over.

Isn't that considered "chain-grabbing"/stale-moves (spam) and often banned? :S
Either/or, it's repetitive and I personally wouldn't allow that... But if it's grabbing that makes DDD so special, that ability shouldn't throw him up that high just for one special ability as opposed to chars. who have actual movesets worth using.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

King DeDeDe has the ability to use his Down Throw, run after the character he threw and grab them again. Why is this special? He can grab them BEFORE they can act.

Couple that with Waddle Spam and one godly b-air and you have a great character.

Variety does not equal good, Samus X. Just because this character can do X amount of things does not mean that all of these things are practical or usable. It's a matter of what can be used and how they are used. Dedede's innate ability to chaingrab 2/3rds of the cast is pretty **** effective, whereas something like using like PK fire to assist Lucas's recovery is not.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bowser King]

You should, to test, brawl some people on wifi. You'd quickly find out why D3's chaingrab is a pain.

The chaingrab isn't banned but the infinite is banned in a lot of tournies but it hasn't been confirmed to be banned.

-Bowser King

 

[brinboy789]

Isn't that considered "chain-grabbing"/stale-moves (spam) and often banned? :S
Either/or, it's repetitive and I personally wouldn't allow that... But if it's grabbing that makes DDD so special, that ability shouldn't throw him up that high just for one special ability as opposed to chars. who have actual movesets worth using.

chain grabbing isnt banned.

and it would be funny if stale moves were banned. we would have to switch with a different move every 9 attacks xD but no i dont really think banning stale moves is possible

D3 has chaingrab, infinite, amazing aerials, sexy tilts, sucky smashes, and has a great projectile. not really for the projectile, but it can stop projectiles from gtting to him. and gordo's are sexy.

thats top tier material right there

 

[Samus Aran X]

^^ I'm sure half of those traits and be found in other characters.. His speed is crap so match him up with a skilled sonic and sonic will just roll through those walking.. um. ham? chicken? whatever they are.. Those Waddle Doohickeys.

Couple that with Waddle Spam and one godly b-air and you have a great character.

Variety does not equal good, Samus X. MK is a perfectly good example of this. Just because this character can do X amount of things does not mean that all of these things are practical or usable.

Smooth Criminal

Wow, the brawls you have must be so interesting. The tournaments will be so predictable.
"Ok, i'm using _____ and my opponent will be King DeDeDe. So all I have to do now is guess which way i'm going to lose." The tournaments are pre-determined if people just use gimmick characters. Snake's special because of his sliding missile launcher, right? Mk is ... plain annoying because of his dizzy spinning and spiraling moves..

A few tricks doesn't deserve that high of an award imo. Bowser has that gimmick space jump ability, but he's in E-tier, I believe. if anyone actually wants a brawl and not a video of you being uselessly tossed around, they should completely disregard the list's rankings due to the fact it's based on cheap combinations with certain chars..

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Good points up until...

sucky smashes

NOOOOoooOOOOOooo. <---- (Arby 'n' the Chief dialect right there)

I like Dedede's Smashes. Particularly Up and Down Smashes. Up Smash is good for nailing people on platforms; Down Smash is good for dummies that spam roll a lot.

Wow, the brawls you have must be so interesting. The tournaments will be so predictable.
"Ok, i'm using _____ and my opponent will be King DeDeDe. So all I have to do now is guess which way i'm going to lose." The tournaments are pre-determined if people just use gimmick characters. Snake's special because of his sliding missile launcher, right? Mk is ... plain annoying because of his dizzy spinning and spiraling moves..

A few tricks doesn't deserve that high of an award imo. Bowser has that gimmick space jump ability, but he's in E-tier, I believe. if anyone actually wants a brawl and not a video of you being uselessly tossed around, they should completely disregard the list's rankings due to the fact it's based on cheap combinations with certain chars..

To sum up your post (and I really hate to sound like an ***):

Go play Wifi or with your friends. This is a thread for the more tourney inclined, not casual people who think mortar sliding is lame.

Oh, and you summed up Brawl very nicely with your "few tricks" comment. Whether you meant to or not.

Smooth Criminal x2

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Disregard.

Double Post

 

[bigman40]

The sole point that D3 has his position is because of how well he handles against the cast. Gimmicky or not, if it gets to the point where it's a intregral part of their game, then it's obivous that it's a plus to their game. (think about it. CG on half - 2/3rds the cast, dealing about 30-40%. A highly prioritized Bair that can gimp, and kill. And even more things that keep him up there.) Bowers can have that jump, but how safe does it really make him compared to D3? I mean, as soon as he gets hit off stage or something, he's lost his DJ, and now is in serious trouble to being gimped.

 

[Bowser King]

The sole point that D3 has his position is because of how well he handles against the cast. Gimmicky or not, if it gets to the point where it's a intregral part of their game, then it's obivous that it's a plus to their game. (think about it. CG on half - 2/3rds the cast, dealing about 30-40%. A highly prioritized Bair that can gimp, and kill. And even more things that keep him up there.) Bowers can have that jump, but how safe does it really make him compared to D3? I mean, as soon as he gets hit off stage or something, he's lost his DJ, and now is in serious trouble to being gimped.

Umm...just to clear something up but bowser has invincibility frames on the first 5 frames of fortress. Plus, the fortress has a lot of priority.

Gimping is a posibility but it's not as easy as you think.

-Bowser King

 

[Samus Aran X]

To sum up your post (and I really hate to sound like an ***):

Go play Wifi or with your friends. This is a thread for the more tourney inclined, not casual people who think mortar sliding is lame.

Smooth Criminal x2

Technically, Tournaments are often held via Wi-Fi. And also, I wasn't bashing his amazing sliding feats. I was just presenting the fact at how some chars. on the list are only high up because of there gimmick moves. Besides, if people just stuck to D3 throughout a tournament, it'd be whoever knows how to do the gimmick moves wins, or if they both know, whoever performs it first... And if the rest of the players were a part of the 2/3 character cast that's pushed over by this "ability", the tournament would have been set and match by the beginning if DeDeDe plays it correctly. But fine, seeing as your heart's set on the fact that these types of moves are encouraged at tournaments, how about I change the angle.

Why are characters, like Samus (she's my main-in-training, so might as well find criticism), so low? Don't give some bull answer about how they have no nooks and crannies in there moveset which is the reason they're rated below an oversized disfigured teddy bear with a duck bill who swallows people (not trying to be offensive to DeDeDe, but it's reality.)

I would love to hear what's so problematic about her moveset so I can attempt to correct those errors while practicing on Wi-Fi.

 

[bigman40]

Umm...just to clear something up but bowser has invincibility frames on the first 5 frames of fortress. Plus, the fortress has a lot of priority.

Gimping is a posibility but it's not as easy as you think.

-Bowser King

I know of what Bowser has in his UpB (I second him anyway). I wasn't trying to make it sound easy, but it still is a dangerous spot to be in considering that if you get hit with a move that sends him downwards enough, then he's dead.

 

[brinboy789]

NOOOOoooOOOOOooo. <---- (Arby 'n' the Chief dialect right there)

I like Dedede's Smashes. Particularly Up and Down Smashes. Up Smash is good for nailing people on platforms; Down Smash is good for dummies that spam roll a lot./QUOTE]

well his smashes can good situationally but i personally find them pretty bad. dmsahs is the only decent on IMO cause it comes out decently fast. usmash is only for wario grab release lmao. fsmash...yea...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why are characters, like Samus (she's my main-in-training, so might as well find criticism), so low? Don't give some bull answer about how they have no nooks and crannies in there moveset which is the reason they're rated below an oversized disfigured teddy bear with a duck bill who swallows people (not trying to be offensive to DeDeDe, but it's reality.)

I would love to hear what's so problematic about her moveset so I can attempt to correct those errors while practicing on Wi-Fi.

Samus's most glaring problem is the fact that none of her moves, save maybe b-air when fresh, can kill at reasonable percentages. She has to rely heavily on gimping the opponent which, as far as Brawl is concerned, is pretty tough to do to anybody and it's that much harder with her. Dedede, for instance, can just float up and out of the away of Samus's edgeguarding attempts courtesy of having multiple jumps. Batting her away physically is a simple matter too; DDD's f-air and b-air come out quick enough and are strong enough to remove any immediate presence off the stage. He could also super armor his way through missiles with Up-B if she tries to gimp him with projectiles. It's very hard for her to land an outright kill.

Not to say that she doesn't have upsides. Z-air (that is, using her tether grab in the air) is amazing at shutting down ground (and some aerial) approaches and can be auto-canceled. Hell, if you're slick enough, you can even use Z-air to approach in and of itself. Her projectile game is decent (I stand by that comment and always have since the game's inception), able to pin pressure where it makes punishable mistakes apparent. Oh, and her weight is worth mentioning too. With good DI, she can live for quite awhile.

And that's about the gist of it, really.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Umby]

Technically, Tournaments are often held via Wi-Fi. And also, I wasn't bashing his amazing sliding feats. I was just presenting the fact at how some chars. on the list are only high up because of there gimmick moves.

Gimmicks are often attributed to novelty features that are often used for less serious applications due to the fact that they work under limited conditions. This is not the case with something like D3's Chain Grab. Dedede has rediculous range on his grab, and with the invincibility frames on his sidestep, he's liable to get in any number of grabs during the course of the match. What other gimmicky moves do some of the higher ranked characters have? Snake's mortar slide? That doesn't make or break Snake. It opens up a few more options, but Snake would still be pretty high up without. Falco has a chain grab, but that's definitely not why he's high up. Except for certain characters where he can go zero-to-death, the chain grab breaks after a certain percentage. After that you're relying on Falco's basic tools. You can probably add in his DACUS and reverse boost grabs, but generally most of the cast can pull those off. Falco just gets better use out of his. There's nothing really "gimmicky" about some of the higher tier characters.

Besides, if people just stuck to D3 throughout a tournament, it'd be whoever knows how to do the gimmick moves wins, or if they both know, whoever performs it first... And if the rest of the players were apart of the 2/3 character cast that's pushed over by this "ability", the tournament would have been set and match by the beginning if DeDeDe plays it correctly. But fine, seeing as your heart's set on the fact that these types of moves are encouraged at tournaments, how about I change the angle.

It seems you're pinning the word "gimmick" on D3's chain grab. That's fine and all, but it's there. It's useful. It's pratical. It works. But it's definitely not the deciding factor in a tournament or match. There's still the actual matchup between two characters to be played. And if a match happened to be a D3 mirror, then fine. Both D3's are going to try and chain grab. But most dittos consist of both players doing fundamental things particular to their character. In any case, it's not like there's a lack of character diversity in tournaments.

Why are characters, like Samus (she's my main-in-training, so might as well find criticism), so low? Don't give some bull answer about how they have no nooks and crannies in there moveset which is the reason they're rated below an oversized disfigured teddy bear with a duck bill who swallows people (not trying to be offensive to DeDeDe, but it's reality.)

You can't tell us not to give an answer that is THE answer. In regards to comparison vs D3, of course it's obvious that Samus doesn't have anything as game changing as D3's chain grab. But her main thing is just being outclassed moveset-wise. The general stuff being that her killing power is low, her roll is horrible (yes that does matter), and just the overall fact that most of the things that made her good in Melee are either now gone or nerfed.

I would love to hear what's so problematic about her moveset so I can attempt to correct those errors while practicing on Wi-Fi.

I only have general knowledge on Samus, so I can't provide you with specifics, but I can tell you that technically, correcting such errors is not possible. Whatever is set about Samus is set. If you meant that you "would work around such errors" that's what every character tries to to about their flaws, and it's not really feasible to do so over wifi, considering input lag is ever present.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeah, Umby, you said that a helluva lot better than me.

lol

Thanks.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Red Arremer]

You're welcome

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You're welcome

Smooth Criminal

YOU'RE NOT UMBY. Get outta here with that noise.

Spadefox

 

[phi1ny3]

Are you kidding? Falco chaingrab is arguably the reason why he contends with MK 45:55, because from then on he's just whittling until death percents. chaingrab isn't what makes the falco, but it certainly hides some weaknesses in certain matchups that would otherwise be lower vs. said char.
And in the spirit of saying usernames subscript...

Phi1ny3 the SCIENCE! guy!

 

[Umby]

You're welcome

Smooth Criminal

Any time.

Smooth Criminal

Are you kidding? Falco chaingrab is arguably the reason why he contends with MK 45:55, because from then on he's just whittling until death percents. chaingrab isn't what makes the falco, but it certainly hides some weaknesses in certain matchups that would otherwise be lower vs. said char.
And in the spirit of saying usernames subscript...

Phi1ny3 the SCIENCE! guy!

Perhaps I phrased it wrong? It was more of a "Falco CG doesn't make or break Falco either." He's retardedly good even if he doesn't CG. He probably wouldn't be in the place he is now with out it, but he'd still be a beast.

Also, MK is rediculously good, but I'm tired of seeing everyone refer back to a character's matchup vs MK as justification for anything that relates to said character being good or bad.

 

[Samus Aran X]

Samus's most glaring problem is the fact that none of her moves, save maybe b-air when fresh, can kill at reasonable percentages. She has to rely heavily on gimping the opponent which, as far as Brawl is concerned, is pretty tough to do to anybody and it's that much harder with her. Dedede, for instance, can just float up and out of the away of Samus's edgeguarding attempts courtesy of having multiple jumps. Batting her away physically is a simple matter too; DDD's f-air and b-air come out quick enough and are strong enough to remove any immediate presence off the stage. He could also super armor his way through missiles with Up-B if she tries to gimp him with projectiles. It's very hard for her to land an outright kill.

Not to say that she doesn't have upsides. Z-air (that is, using her tether grab in the air) is amazing at shutting down ground (and some aerial) approaches and can be auto-canceled. Hell, if you're slick enough, you can even use Z-air to approach in and of itself. Her projectile game is decent (I stand by that comment and always have since the game's inception), able to pin pressure where it makes punishable mistakes apparent. Oh, and her weight is worth mentioning too. With good DI, she can live for quite awhile.

And that's about the gist of it, really.

Smooth Criminal

Sorry, but i'm a bit new here. What exactly is gimping? Judging by it's use in that one sentence, i'd say it's relative to spamming? Oh and, Bair is bottom air, correct?

Yes, i'm noticed that problem with her edgeguarding, but I've noticed a neat trick to perform with hers. Say she's hanging on to the edge w/ her plasma lasso. If say DeDeDe attempts to murder her with bair (I believe it's the hammer drill?), Samus could easily pull up towards the ledge and D3 would come tumbling down after the failed attack. That move takes up a few frames, doesn't it? While trying to recover using a float jump, (His recovery has a chance of sliding off the stage 's edge if misinterpreted), Samus could easily meteor KO D3.

Also, if you hit the combos perfectly on the tick, you could get over 60% damage onto the D3 being untouched (at least, that's the farthest i've made it). Comboing w/ samus is fairly basic and if performed correctly, you could cause more damage done to your opponent than you, especially D3 seeing as he's a large target.

My personal strategy is to charge up a beam (now expecting to be shot at, planning for B Up or a shield), whip a super missile as a facade/to build up decent damage, and then fire the beam which will send D3 flying. As for his recovery, she could easily f-air him off the stage or b-air if placed right. This may also intertwine w/ Zamus, but Samus has the ability to freely switch into ZSS and finish off the fight with her mid-air kicks. Even though this overlaps with Zamus' moveset, it's still Samus-topic because it's her ability to freely switch into Zamus.

That little switch is as beneficial or as hindering as any other transformation (PT, Zelda/sheik). It can land a reliable dodge against a laggy power house move (D3's Hammer and Lucas' A Up namely) if your shield had no time to recover.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you should talk to xyro about why samus is so bad.

 

[Barge]

Sorry, but i'm a bit new here. What exactly is gimping? Judging by it's use in that one sentence, i'd say it's relative to spamming? Oh and, Bair is bottom air, correct?

Yes, i'm noticed that problem with her edgeguarding, but I've noticed a neat trick to perform with hers. Say she's hanging on to the edge w/ her plasma lasso. If say DeDeDe attempts to murder her with bair (I believe it's the hammer drill?), Samus could easily pull up towards the ledge and D3 would come tumbling down after the failed attack. That move takes up a few frames, doesn't it? While trying to recover using a float jump, (His recovery has a chance of sliding off the stage 's edge if misinterpreted), Samus could easily meteor KO D3.

Also, if you hit the combos perfectly on the tick, you could get over 60% damage onto the D3 being untouched (at least, that's the farthest i've made it). Comboing w/ samus is fairly basic and if performed correctly, you could cause more damage done to your opponent than you, especially D3 seeing as he's a large target.

My personal strategy is to charge up a beam (now expecting to be shot at, planning for B Up or a shield), whip a super missile as a facade/to build up decent damage, and then fire the beam which will send D3 flying. As for his recovery, she could easily f-air him off the stage or b-air if placed right. This may also intertwine w/ Zamus, but Samus has the ability to freely switch into ZSS and finish off the fight with her mid-air kicks. Even though this overlaps with Zamus' moveset, it's still Samus-topic because it's her ability to freely switch into Zamus.

That little switch is as beneficial or as hindering as any other transformation (PT, Zelda/sheik). It can land a reliable dodge against a laggy power house move (D3's Hammer and Lucas' A Up namely) if your shield had no time to recover.

Gimping is destroying someones recovery/Going offstage, attacking them so they cant get back/edge hogging etc.

 

[Umby]

Sorry, but i'm a bit new here. What exactly is gimping? Judging by it's use in that one sentence, i'd say it's relative to spamming? Oh and, Bair is bottom air, correct?

I'll apologize if you're not, but that sentence really makes you look like a troll. Nonetheless, I'll explain.

Gimping is killing a character at low percentages, usually through extensive edgeguarding or zero-to-death combos.

Bair is back air, which is one of Dedede's retardedly good moves.

Yes, i'm noticed that problem with her edgeguarding, but I've noticed a neat trick to perform with hers. Say she's hanging on to the edge w/ her plasma lasso. If say DeDeDe attempts to murder her with bair (I believe it's the hammer drill?), Samus could easily pull up towards the ledge and D3 would come tumbling down after the failed attack. That move takes up a few frames, doesn't it? While trying to recover using a float jump, (His recovery has a chance of sliding off the stage 's edge if misinterpreted), Samus could easily meteor KO D3.

Since I explained what bair really is, that statement is invalid. There's a low chance of Samus meteoring D3 in that regard.

Also, if you hit the combos perfectly on the tick, you could get over 60% damage onto the D3 being untouched (at least, that's the farthest i've made it). Comboing w/ samus is fairly basic and if performed correctly, you could cause more damage done to your opponent than you, especially D3 seeing as he's a large target.

Pray tell, what combos would those be? Aside from that D3 may be a huge target, but the invincibility frames on his sidestep make it so that it sometimes doesn't matter. A full up smash from Sonic can entirely miss if D3 times it right (which is often). And damage isn't the problem. It's Samus's killing power. D3, being a heavy, can survive to rediculous percentages if you can throw out a really good kill move.

My personal strategy is to charge up a beam (now expecting to be shot at, planning for B Up or a shield), whip a super missile as a facade/to build up decent damage, and then fire the beam which will send D3 flying. As for his recovery, she could easily f-air him off the stage or b-air if placed right. This may also intertwine w/ Zamus, but Samus has the ability to freely switch into ZSS and finish off the fight with her mid-air kicks. Even though this overlaps with Zamus' moveset, it's still Samus-topic because it's her ability to freely switch into Zamus.

That's a commonly known Samus strategy (Missle-> Charge Shot). And while it's feasible, the opponent most likely will be cautious of it so it's not a direct counter strategy.

Samus cannot Fair gimp D3 as easily as you think. D3 players can spam consecutive forward airs and back airs before you can try. Their air dodge has great invincibility frames as well.

While Samus can switch to Zamus, Zamus plays a completely different game from Samus, not to mention you can't switch from Zamus back to Samus without a Smash Ball, so that argument is moot.

That little switch is as beneficial or as hindering as any other transformation (PT, Zelda/sheik). It can land a reliable dodge against a laggy power house move (D3's Hammer and Lucas' A Up namely) if your shield had no time to recover.

Once again, Zamus can't switch back to Samus without a Smash Ball, therefore the uses are not similar to the way PT and Zelda/Sheik switch.

 

[Samus Aran X]

^^
Sorry, thought I was clear enough, but I was trying to say that it's perfect for finishing off an opponent during a stock match if they're on the last life. Once there blasted, it's a perfect opportunity to perform the switch with laggy floating characters and then counter with mid air kicks.

You can't tell us not to give an answer that is THE answer. In regards to comparison vs D3, of course it's obvious that Samus doesn't have anything as game changing as D3's chain grab. But her main thing is just being outclassed moveset-wise. The general stuff being that her killing power is low, her roll is horrible (yes that does matter), and just the overall fact that most of the things that made her good in Melee are either now gone or nerfed.

Sorry for referring to them as "gimmicky". I need to improve on brawl vocabulary.
Okay, you've nailed every point of my counter argument (namely my self-esteem when playing as samus against a D3 ) But could you be more specific on her roll? is it too short? the range is awful? too many frames? Her rolls aren't that awful imo. It's practical enough to perform a Double Team Charge (Charge for 1 frame, roll, away, repeat. Of course it gets predictable once the foe catches on, but it can land you a few saved seconds.), which is what I do when out-classed in speed or against a huskier characters who can attack at a range which is threatning to her roll.

Also, her moveset is decent and not total crap. I know this is just a smash n00b's opinion, but she should at least be compared to Luigi's class. She has a great variety of projectiles, an amazing A Down (no smash [when the cannon explodes and sends you upwards]). Again, her moveset is primarily made for combos. Once you rack up enough damage with super missiles and running tackles, land A Down, the opponent goes flying and obviously tries to recover downwards. If enough damage has been dealt, you could finish the assasination with Screw Attack (B Up), especially with Bulky chars who tend to lag in mid-air dodges or are just plain easy to hit. I don't see why she'd be considered so awful. She's an all-around character.

2 Decent Recoveries (Plasma Lasso*, Screw Attack*/B Up*)
Nerfed Plasma Cannon (Which allows a shorter knockback range and easier to B-Air whilst enemy recovers)
Amazing Grab range
Awesome Projectiles + range
2 Skyward attacks
Decent smashes
Slightly below average speed.

Sure, she's no speed demon or extreme powerhouse, but she has a basic, decent moveset, strong and stable enough to surpass being compared to other chars matched up w/ her.
Again, this is all a smash n00b's opinion, so feel free to pick at it and disregard.


EDIT: Okay, just to get this straight

F-air - Forward
B-air- Back/Behind
D-air- Downwards
U-air(?) -Up air

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill let everyone else talk about the other stuff but i will say that the reason luigis moveset is better than samuss is because his forward smash (the chop) and his up b from very close up, both kill very early, and his airials do slightly more damage and are more chain able.

so all in all luigi racks damage a little bit better than samus and kills wayyyyy better and earlier than she does.

 

[Umby]

^^
Sorry, thought I was clear enough, but I was trying to say that it's perfect for finishing off an opponent during a stock match if they're on the last life. Once there blasted, it's a perfect opportunity to perform the switch with laggy floating characters and then counter with mid air kicks.




Sorry for referring to them as "gimmicky". I need to improve on brawl vocabulary.
Okay, you've nailed every point of my counter argument (namely my self-esteem when playing as samus against a D3 ) But could you be more specific on her roll? is it too short? the range is awful? too many frames? Her rolls aren't that awful imo. It's practical enough to perform a Double Team Charge (Charge for 1 frame, roll, away, repeat. Of course it gets predictable once the foe catches on, but it can land you a few saved seconds.), which is what I do when out-classed in speed or against a huskier characters who can attack at a range which is threatning to her roll.

Also, her moveset is decent and not total crap. I know this is just a smash n00b's opinion, but she should at least be compared to Luigi's class. She has a great variety of projectiles, an amazing A Down (no smash [when the cannon explodes and sents you upwards]). Again, her moveset is primarily made for combos. Once you rack up enough damage with super missiles and running tackles, land A Down, the opponent goes flying and obviously tries to recover downwards. If enough damage has been dealt, you could finish the assasination with Screw Attack (B Up), especially with Bulky chars who tend to lag in mid-air dodges or are just plain easy to hit. I don't see why she'd be considered so awful. She's an all-around character.

2 Decent Recoveries (Plasma Whip, Screw Up)
Nerfed Plasma Cannon (Which allows a shorter knockback range and easier to B-Air whilst enemy recovers)
Amazing Grab range
Awesome Projectiles + range
2 Skyward attacks
Decent smashes
Slightly below average speed.

Sure, she's no speed demon or extreme powerhouse, but she has a basic, decent moveset, strong and stable enough to surpass being compared to other chars matched up w/ her.
Again, this is all a smash n00b's opinion, so feel free to pick at it and disregard.

Quick answers this time:

Roll: Too many frames. It's easy to chase it and get a free grab out of it.

Moveset: Not necessarilly crap, but mainly outclassed in comparison to other movesets.

Down Tilt: Is good.

Screw Attack: Nice counter move and occasional "combo" finisher.

Grab range: Is nice, but startup is too laggy and people can see it coming.

Samus: Isn't really an all around characters. Most of her game (if I understand correctly) is based off of defensive projectile/grapple play. She doesn't really excel at combos or punishing missed moves. While she can do a few things, she's not exactly the greatest at gimping to make up for her lack of killing power either. Really, most of her basic tools are outclassed/not good enough, and she doesn't have enough of anything else to completely compensate for that.

 

[Browny]

Its not that Samus is bad,
its just that most every other character has something really good about them. starting from the lower sides of the list i can name things like

Ness' bthrow and fair
Lucas' fsmash and tilts
Ike's jab

simple aspect of a character that are REALLY good. make a character go from bad to merely below average. Samus doesnt really have enough to put her above the other low tiers. Her zair and auto cancelled aerials are great, but still not enough.

when you look at characters above them again youve got things like
Bowsers chaingrab and fortress (and he weighs a ton)
Zeldas amazing KO power with a whole range of attacks
Wolfs blaster and long ranged, fast aerials

Those attributes, although not many in total, are still worth more than other low tiers.

 

[KvC Prolimar]

Olimar at the end of the B rank..oh, God. Whatever.

 

[Samus Aran X]

^ ^ LOL FAIL.

ill let everyone else talk about the other stuff but i will say that the reason luigis moveset is better than samuss is because his forward smash (the chop) and his up b from very close up, both kill very early, and his airials do slightly more damage and are more chain able.

so all in all luigi racks damage a little bit better than samus and kills wayyyyy better and earlier than she does.

Yes, i've noticed that with Luigi as well, thanks for the reminder. Smash Dojo crowned Jiggly as the Mid-air queen, but she's rated crap and Luigi had basically no mention of his killing aerial moves. It's funny how the dojo describes Samus as the one you'd want to change into if you're Zamus. Ironically, it's the exact opposite.

Okay, well I'm out of reasonable counter arguments. I honestly chose Samus because I tend to try and main characters with a decent background story (I've mained Fox, Ness, Lucas, Wolf, TL, Zelda, etc., and of course, now Samus). Once I could play decently against a Level 9 Computer (LMAO) I thought it'd be sensible enough to make her my training in main. I hadn't noticed how many flaws she had. Her moveset was one of my favourites, I'd have to admit.

_SIGH_ The characters on the top tiers are usually the ones I dislike playing against/using but I guess i'd have to start training as one of them. I modestly accept the fact that D3 is flat-out superior to Samus and she's just not the golden material the higher ranks are looking for, so I guess I'm done arguing here. I think ill begin practising with Luigi or Falco if I want to be ranked above 'noob' in the competitive battle scene... Anyway, I'm off for the day. Thanks for the good debates, Umby.
:D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Once again, Zamus can't switch back to Samus without a Smash Ball, therefore the uses are not similar to the way PT and Zelda/Sheik switch.

???

Samus and ZSS can switch. You have to use it via taunts which not many people know how to do.
The only person I have seen pull it off with ease is Skip.

Smashballs are not needed at all.

 

[dean.]

???

Samus and ZSS can switch. You have to use it via taunts which not many people know how to do.
The only person I have seen pull it off with ease is Skip.

Smashballs are not needed at all.

I thought Samus could transform into Zamus with taunts, but not the other way around?