The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Darknid]

Darknid, I left my comments above.

Your comments were true, but this doesn't put Yoshi below falcon and ****.

 

[bigman40]

Your comments were true, but this doesn't put Yoshi below falcon and ****.

I didn't say he was below Falcon (I think someone else did). I said he was bottom tier. He just can't answer to stuff when his plans are figured out. And you didn't answer my question on the air camping. What were you trying to get out of that?

 

[choknater]

Really, there is no need to play Sheik against Bowser because Zelda is a better choice anyway on him and can lock down several more of Bowser's options. She has better abilities of killing him off, racking damage on him and she also has no trouble getting out of the chaingrab.

Gimping Bowser is not as easy as it sounds - Fortress has invincibility frames and generally insanely high priority. He's definitely not as easy to gimp as the spacies. =P

Also, don't underestimate Bowser's speed. It's not like you run in, can do a hit and run away again. FAir, FTilt, Jab, Grab and Klaw are insanely quick. Since sheik is a lot in the air, she also could have to eat an UTilt - one of Bowser's best moves overall.

okay, i see where youre getting at, but telling me bowsers options just gives me further info on how to **** him LOL. also, i like sheik better, so i will probably play her and transform to zelda at like 120 or 130 (since its bowser) with fresh KO moves

i believe ledge hog bair will trade with recovering fortress, and it won't multi-hit sheik so it's worth the damage to keep him off. it's a simple and reliable option. (plus if you bair immediately after chain hogging, there is invincibility as well lol)

i never said anythign about gimping, just edge guarding to build up further damage in order to set up a situation where i can switch to zelda

and i don't underestimate bowsers speed, i can use him too i know what his good options are. it's just... even if bowser has the speed to space and zone againts sheik, he is still a big slow moving tank compared to sheik comparable to snake and DK. even though they have excellent options, a good needle game and maneuverability can turn sheik into a ninja that cannot be touched by big characters

the best way to beat sheik with bowser, like u said, is to outrange and outprioritize her approaches, which is legit

easier said than done

as for sheik ****** bowser... easier done than said LOL!

 

[Veelhelm]

Deleted the content.

-Chaco

 

[Deathcarter]

Burntsocks, don't sell Yoshi short. I see him, Ness, Mario, Pokemon Trainer, and Sonic moving into lower mid with Ike, Bowser, and Fox (Zelda and Shiek are at the very bottom of upper mid) if the SBR has any respect for those four ch.............................................................................nevermind.

















But seriously, those 5 look to be sticking together, whether it be in lower mid or Low.

 

[Darknid]

Let us be realistic, MK and Snake arent going anywhere.

DDD may fall due to his bad matcups with some characters same with Wario(though warios are scattered not based in high and t0 like marth.)

Let alone when did we just to tierlist rather than matchup?

Well, since you didn't do much but explain how dolphin slash is the most broken move in the game and how Marth is so fast and his sword is so long that lasers and illusions don't matter because you will never escape him(even though I often outspace him as Bowser, DK and even Zard), I'd like to concentrate on your answer to my question which still wasn't very clear. So you'd take D3 out to place Marth into the top 5? Well, I strongly disagree. Oh, you said D3 will fall..Well then, if he falls, why do you think Marth would replace him on that list over, say, Wario or Falco? Or DK for that matter, if D3 is indeed going to fall.

 

[Red Arremer]

okay, i see where youre getting at, but telling me bowsers options just gives me further info on how to **** him LOL [...]

lol

Well as said, Bowser DOES have his options to deal with Sheik, and considering he has invincibility frames and the best shield in the game, Sheik is not easily winning this MU.

As said, it's even: Both have their options, so it really winds down to the stage and the player skill. ;P

If you're an amazing Sheik who can deal easily with disadvantageous MUs, then that's cool, but that doesn't make her overall better in that match - only in your case. If you catch my drift. ^^

 

[Darknid]

I didn't say he was below Falcon (I think someone else did). I said he was bottom tier. He just can't answer to stuff when his plans are figured out. And you didn't answer my question on the air camping. What were you trying to get out of that?

While not as effective, Yoshi can air camp similarly to Wario, except Yoshi has a projectile to annoy people with.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I confess i was trollin the shiz out of u
Bowser *****.

Well, since you didn't do much but explain how dolphin slash is the most broken move in the game

I like it when people bring up things that were never said.

and how Marth is so fast and his sword is so long that lasers and illusions don't matter because you will never escape him

Really Is aid it was inescapable? Where?
Proof now or STFU.

(even though I often outspace him as Bowser, DK and even Zard)

All of which have better range than Marth with several of their moves.
Stop failing.

stuff

We were just discussing Falco vs marth.
WHy are you going off on this other tangent?
I'll discuss it after we finish with Falco and Marth unless you feel you conceided the matter.

 

[bigman40]

While not as effective, Yoshi can air camp similarly to Wario, except Yoshi has a projectile to annoy people with.

The egg is basically an Anti-Air projectile. He doesn't have the drop like it used to in melee (if it did, Yoshi would go up from that). So using it in the air is worthless cause it will barely go past horizontal range from when he threw it.

While yoshi has the fastest aerial top speed, his acceleration sucks hardcore compared to it. Wario can at least fake his opponents to think they're gonna land closer than they believe, but when Yoshi attempts that, he'll get screwed cause he can't go in the opposite way fast enough to keep him safe.

 

[choknater]

If you're an amazing Sheik who can deal easily with disadvantageous MUs, then that's cool, but that doesn't make her overall better in that match - only in your case. If you catch my drift. ^^

yes sir haha

i own bad matchups like peach and marth and G&W with sheik so... bowser? I GOT THIS SON

as for yoshi... bair/nair/kickjab/ftilt is all i use LOL

 

[BentoBox]

Wario spits on your scrub characters and scrubish techniques

Wario is truth.

All hail.

 

[Darknid]

I like it when people bring up things that were never said.


Really Is aid it was inescapable? Where?
Proof now or STFU.


All of which have better range than Marth with several of their moves.
Stop failing.



We were just discussing Falco vs marth.
WHy are you going off on this other tangent?
I'll discuss it after we finish with Falco and Marth unless you feel you conceided the matter.

I was exaggerating, not quoting you. I actually asked this question before we discussed falco vs marth. Now answer it.

 

[Darknid]

The egg is basically an Anti-Air projectile. He doesn't have the drop like it used to in melee (if it did, Yoshi would go up from that). So using it in the air is worthless cause it will barely go past horizontal range from when he threw it.

While yoshi has the fastest aerial top speed, his acceleration sucks hardcore compared to it. Wario can at least fake his opponents to think they're gonna land closer than they believe, but when Yoshi attempts that, he'll get screwed cause he can't go in the opposite way fast enough to keep him safe.

I wasn't talking about using it in the air, that wouldn't work.

And yeah, his handling isn't so great, which makes it less effective.

 

[Red Arremer]

Wario spits on your scrub characters and scrubish techniques

Wario is truth.

All hail.

lol, that's true. Wario is too good.

All hail the fart.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I was exaggerating,

Exaggerating the statements of the person you debate with is insulting to the opponent and detracts from the validity of the debate.
DON'T DO IT

I actually asked this question before we discussed falco vs marth. Now answer it.

You know, if you ask me.
How can he approach?
And I answer
then perhaps that wasn't your question?
Re-state it clearly then so I can answer it in case I misunderstood.

 

[Darknid]

Exaggerating the statements of the person you debate with is insulting to the opponent and detracts from the validity of the debate.
DON'T DO IT


You know, if you ask me.
How can he approach?
And I answer
then perhaps that wasn't your question?
Re-state it clearly then so I can answer it in case I misunderstood.

I've asked this several times. You actually semi-answered it. Who would you take out of a top 5 list to put Marth in? you said D3 will fall..Well, if that happens, I'd say Wario and DK both have priority over Marth in the event of D3 falling

 

[Deathcarter]

I've asked this several times. You actually semi-answered it. Who would you take out of a top 5 list to put Marth in? you said D3 will fall..Well, if that happens, I'd say Wario and DK both have priority over Marth in the event of D3 falling

Darknid, even if DK has top/high tier matchups as good as Marths, he cannot be in top tier simply because his matchups against the mid and low tiers are WELL below the usual standerd of the Top tier. For pete's sake, SAMUS has a neutral/very slight advantage on him. NOBODY highly regarded as Top tier has anything worse than 1 disadvantaged matchup against anybody in Mid/Low (except DDD if you beleive he is disadvantaged to both Zelda and Shiek if you count Zero Suit as High)).

 

[Red Arremer]

I think he means Diddy Kong, not Donkey Kong with "DK"

 

[Darknid]

Darknid, even if DK has top/high tier matchups as good as Marths, he cannot be in top tier simply because his matchups against the mid and low tiers are WELL below the usual standerd of the Top tier. For pete's sake, SAMUS has a neutral/very slight advantage on him. NOBODY highly regarded as Top tier has anything worse than 1 disadvantaged matchup against anybody in Mid/Low (except DDD if you beleive he is disadvantaged to both Zelda and Shiek if you count Zero Suit as High)).

Yeah, because it's mid tiers, and not high tiers that you have to worry about in tourneys and competitive play. Samus? that's it? How many samus mains do you honestly see? and even so that's an even matchup, especially since Samus doesn't kill DK until like 500.

DK has some of the best top/high tier matchups and that's more important. What mid tiers are ****** him so bad anyway? Is Samus your only example?


D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88 - Even
Toon Link 8.47 - Even as far as I know.
Pit 8.44 - Pit
Peach 8.16 - idk
Wolf 7.91 - DK

E Tier
Luigi 7.41 - Even
Zelda 7.03 - DK
Bowser 6.91- DK
Fox 6.66 - I don't know, probably even/DK
Sheik 6.44 - Sheik
Ike 5.91 - DK

Mostly even to my knowledge, with three possible disadvantages but nothing major.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know what came over me.

HOW SUGGESTIVE.

...

That aside, while it seems like a bad excuse for it, my older brother makes me think that Yoshi's a decent character. It's not that I see a ridiculous amount of depth or anything. Yoshi just has some really good properties about him. Very deceptive range on U-Smash and F-Air, a quite-nice recovery, good juggling ability (due to his aerial mobility), a really good projectile...I could see him being somewhere higher in the Low Tier bracket if he just had better players using him in tournaments; maybe a little higher than that, as well.

He's just...tricky. If you know what you're doing, you should be able to see mix-up possibilities left and right with Yoshi.

I believe Wario's going to rise a bit more. What CAN'T he do to an extent (that he would care to do, anyway)?

Bowser's trouble is that the properties of his good moves just aren't that good. A fairly exploitable recovery, a fairly obvious moveset...while he does have power, his powerful moves aren't too hard to avoid, given his bad jumping and lag on many of his powerful moves. His chaingrab is overrated, although so is Yoshi's--Bowser's grab is terrible, so if an opponent just stays near an edge or plays on platforms (if they're around, which they usually are), they can usually outmaneuver Bowser with their own aerials and stuff. Even if you do grab, it's not a lot of damage outside of the last hit (which is usually F-Tilt or F-Air, I think), while a missed grab can mean your ***, given how big Bowser is. Bowser is TERRIBLY easy to camp with many characters, who can already do silly combos to Bowser (Sheik, Wario, Falco, here's looking at you).

Good character against aggressive opponents if you know what you're doing (Up-B out of shield is nice, and Bowser tends to outrange a fair amount of people with single-hit exchanges), but he just can't approach well enough (or force others to approach well enough) to be considered anything more than Low Tier, I believe.

By the way, lasers won't keep ANYONE out forever. Marth has a multitude of options against Phantasm, and after seeing Kismet have such trouble with Falco there, I'm inclined to believe that Marth has a decent advantage in that matchup.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah, because it's mid tiers, and not high tiers that you have to worry about in tourneys and competitive play.

Mid tiers still happen. Whether or not they're common is irrelevant. Marth DOES have slightly better matchups and that's enough.

 

[Avalancer]

bottom A tier ^^

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser's trouble is that the properties of his good moves just aren't that good.

Ok.

A fairly exploitable recovery

How? Bowsers recovery is very hard to gimp. There are a lot of recoveries out there that are easier. If bowser is near the stage, he can use up b and get there quite quick since it's a pretty fast move. If he's far he can jump and DI in and then recover and seeing how bowser is the heaviest/tied for heaviest char getting him far off won't happen until higher damage. Plus, When you DO go for a gimp, we can up B before you do and take advantage of UB's invincibility frames and very good priority.

, a fairly obvious moveset...while he does have power, his powerful moves aren't too hard to avoid, given his bad jumping and lag on many of his powerful moves.

If the bowser players using his laggy moves to often he's playing wrong.
We don't NEED the speed. Are moves ae fast enough and have quite a big range that we can take advantage of that. Moves like ftilt, dtilt, fortress etc. have more then enough range to keep enemies away.

Also, most of his powerful moves have advantages a well. Fsmash has a drawback animation and isn't to laggy (except ending lag). Upsmash has a giant hitbox and destroys people on platforms as well as having good range. Dsmash can punish rolers to some extent but other then that you won't see this one to often.

His chaingrab is overrated, although so is Yoshi's--Bowser's grab is terrible, so if an opponent just stays near an edge or plays on platforms (if they're around, which they usually are), they can usually outmaneuver Bowser with their own aerials and stuff. Even if you do grab, it's not a lot of damage outside of the last hit (which is usually F-Tilt or F-Air, I think), while a missed grab can mean your ***, given how big Bowser is.

His grab isn't "terrible", it's bad but definitely doesn't qualify as terrible. Bowser's shield is huge so you'll be seeing quite a bit of out of shield grabs. Playing on platforms means upsmash for you. Staying near the edge is also not very safe since he doesn't HAVE to grab you.

Last hit can lead to many things depending on the char. A lot of chars suffer from getting klawed which could be a free cide if possible and if not it's a guaranteed 18-19 damage. Wario gets hit by all (or almost, not sure about dsmash) of bowsers smashes on air release and on ground release he gets quite a bit as well. Jiggs gets a free uair and bowsers uair is very good. There are also other things like jabs, regrab, dtilt (which on the edge can kill quite well on certain chars) etc.

Saying "missing a grab" isn't a very valid argument. It's not that hard to use the chain grab and after even a couple days of practice most people have it down.

Bowser is TERRIBLY easy to camp with many characters, who can already do silly combos to Bowser (Sheik, Wario, Falco, here's looking at you).

Camping isn't very good against bowser (read the rest before you kill me for that). I mean that it isn't something new or amazing that will wreck bowser. Power shielding is quite easy and bowsers shield is also big enough for him to get far. Bowser can use ^b which clings with quite a bit of projectiles thanks to high priority and invincibility frames. It also cancels automatically when hit. Sheik can't camp us very well can't say anything about the other two but there matchup isn't that bad for bowser (44-55 each). Combo's in brawl?!?!?! Seriously though the can juggle him but we can get out and fortress is usually a good way.

Good character against aggressive opponents if you know what you're doing (Up-B out of shield is nice, and Bowser tends to outrange a fair amount of people with single-hit exchanges), but he just can't approach well enough (or force others to approach well enough) to be considered anything more than Low Tier, I believe.

Klaw hopping, power shielding, fortress and more are all examples of bowser approaching. They all work quite well =/

Yes bowser can't force approch very well (usually just using fire and a few other things) but he CAN approach. In-ability to force approach isn't enough to put someone in low tier IMO

-Bowser King

 

[Red Arremer]

so if an opponent [...] plays on platforms (if they're around, which they usually are)...

...they will be facing an extremely maneuverable Bowser.

 

[Noa.]

...they will be facing an extremely maneuverable Bowser.

Wow, that's really impressive of Bowser. He moves so fast through the air! Is battlefield a good stage for Bowser?

 

[Red Arremer]

It already was pretty good for him in the first place due to him being able to USmash/UTilt/UAir through the platforms nicely and its small size... but with this, it makes it even better. ^^

It works on all drop through platforms, too.

 

[Noa.]

It already was pretty good for him in the first place due to him being able to USmash/UTilt/UAir through the platforms nicely and its small size... but with this, it makes it even better. ^^

It works on all drop through platforms, too.

Hmmm. That means it also works on Norfair. That seems kind of intimidating.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes. Norfair was Bowser's best stage to begin with, due to many ledges. XD

 

[Noa.]

Yes. Norfair was Bowser's best stage to begin with, due to many ledges. XD

God, that's too much. I thought it would be bad because he couldn't do so many chain release grab shenanigans. Is that what I should consider banning against him? Or will he just be fine on a flat stage like FD?

 

[Bowser King]

God, that's too much. I thought it would be bad because he couldn't do so many chain release grab shenanigans. Is that what I should consider banning against him? Or will he just be fine on a flat stage like FD?

Yeah. Bowsers LOVE norfair. Prevents quite a bit of bowsers weaknesses from taking effect (like camping). With this he'll be even better there :D

-Bowser King

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just avoid taking aerialist specialists there. If you ask me MK, GaW or Marth are evil on norfair.

 

[Noa.]

Well, G&W does do well on Norfair. But now I'm not sure that I'll counterpick Norfair against Bowser. Or let him do it for that matter.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Man, ZSS needs to rise next time. She is underrated godliness. I am too lazy to list reasons, cause I don't feel like "discussing" on it. <_<

So hopefully someone can step up for me :D.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, Zamus is good... she should definitely rise.

And draconoa, CPing Norfair against Bowser will make the Bowser player incredibly happy. XD

 

[Noa.]

Yes, Zamus is good... she should definitely rise.

And draconoa, CPing Norfair against Bowser will make the Bowser player incredibly happy. XD

Which is why I'll never do it. Even if I'm an "aerial specialist".

But Zamus does seem good. The way people speak of her combined with her amazing tourney results spells that she will very soon be moving up in the tier list.

 

[Red Arremer]

Basically that stage - even without the Side B Cancelling - allows him to maneuver easily due to the many ledges. He also can cancel the Side B on the lava (hence Bowsers also like Brinstar); he generally also is able to make good use of the Klaw in this stage. Not to mention... you will see hundreds of his UTilts and USmashes on this stage. 8D

Bowser is too good on Norfair. Except for MK, I can't think of any character who does better than Bowser on it. ^^

 

[Xerxes]

Um this is mostly right except for lucario and link. I think link should be lower than ganondorf and ganon should be lower than c.falcon. Lucario should be in the A tier at least I have seen a lot of characters on the a tier get crushed by lucario

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Okaaaaay. WHY should Link be last when he actually has some good things going for him that clearly puts him above? He actually has some ADVANTAGE Matchups at least.


Lucario should rise because you've seen him beat other A tiers?!!!!! Well, I have seen Wario beating some MK's but you will not be seeing him in the SS tier.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Basically that stage - even without the Side B Cancelling - allows him to maneuver easily due to the many ledges. He also can cancel the Side B on the lava (hence Bowsers also like Brinstar); he generally also is able to make good use of the Klaw in this stage. Not to mention... you will see hundreds of his UTilts and USmashes on this stage. 8D

Bowser is too good on Norfair. Except for MK, I can't think of any character who does better than Bowser on it. ^^

Maybe Pit. He is one of the few characters that can still camp Norfair, and loves it in general anyway with ledge camping and sharking uair.