The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Commander_Beef]

Ness Forward Air says hello

I think that's the randomest thing I've ever heard in a smash forum in my life.


LOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think that's the randomest thing I've ever heard in a smash forum in my life.


LOL

Talking about Ness' ability to deal with grabbing, basically they said Wario is much better at avoiding it.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Talking about Ness' ability to deal with grabbing, basically they said Wario is much better at avoiding it.

Oh...meh.

Why is it that whenever we Zpick-up a grenade, it'll kinda drop out of our hands when he pick it up?
Nobody's ever asked that before...

 

[SilverDoc~]

Dedede is too low what the hell.....

I mean come on... the dude has a chain on over half the cast, and he counters about 2 people above him.

And his metagame is flawless too, what is it 55 - 45? Why d3 why

 

[Dark.Pch]

You're getting too deep. I don't want this to turn into one of those "outcamping debates" where each side throws out "ifs" and "buts". I don't even use either character much less see how that matchup is played out, so I wouldn't know. :3

Have you or any other Peach players consistently outcamped GOOD snake players? That'd be better supporting evidence than an explanation.

I'm a deep person. When it comes to Peach i just can't take it easy.

And I have played good snakes that camped me. I don't know about the other peach players though. All I know is ever since I learned how to do this, Snake has been less trouble. Snake does not bother me at all. To me, he is just another character to beat up with Peach.

 

[SilverDoc~]

Why the hell is wario so high, now I know this list is flawed.

Wario should be 6th at the most, you should take his grab release flaw to consideration.

The rest of the list is mostly accurate, but wolf needs to be higher he has the gayest spam game in the world -____-...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why the hell is wario so high, now I know this list is flawed.

Wario should be 6th at the most, you should take his grab release flaw to consideration.

The rest of the list is mostly accurate, but wolf needs to be higher he has the gayest spam game in the world -____-...

He's the one character who can legitimately play the "don't get grabbed" card, has great match-ups, no solid disadvantages, etc.

D3 and Wolf didn't drop as much as it was other characters got better then them.

 

[Dark.Pch]

To me that grab realease is not all that to put wario down alone. For a solid wario is hard to grab in the first place. Which Peach Vs Wario peach players were going on about the grab release on him and that helps on the match up alot. To me it does not cause you just can't grab a good Wario that easy. If Peach was to have the advantage, it has to me more that just that.

But as I said before. I don't know the match up.

 

[Red Arremer]

Why the hell is wario so high, now I know this list is flawed.

Wario should be 6th at the most, you should take his grab release flaw to consideration.

The rest of the list is mostly accurate, but wolf needs to be higher he has the gayest spam game in the world -____-...

Learn 2 Wario and learn 2 Wolf.

lol

 

[Nanaki]

Why the hell is wario so high, now I know this list is flawed.

Wario should be 6th at the most, you should take his grab release flaw to consideration.

The rest of the list is mostly accurate, but wolf needs to be higher he has the gayest spam game in the world -____-...

DeDeDe is dropping because nothing interesting is happening with him. He also has a ton of bad matchups. He's still 3rd in tournament rankings though, so you can justfity your argument that way.

Wario mains are consistently placing high in tournament with him. His grab release flaws aren't as big of a deal as it would seem because of his high affinity for not being grabbed. He has incredible mobility, so he doesn't NEED great range. He's heavy and has a tremendous recovery, so he lives for a very long time.

Who on the list should Wolf be above and why?

Edit: Spadefox wins. Said what I said but shorter and better.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think Wolf is good where he is. It seems the characters above him get the job done better. There does not seem to be much with wolf. Ether that or The wolfs these day play kinda bleh. Mostly Bair camping to Smash attacks. Then wanting to camp with The blaster.

 

[Zankoku]

To me that grab realease is not all that to put wario down alone. For a solid wario is hard to grab in the first place. Which Peach Vs Wario peach players were going on about the grab release on him and that helps on the match up alot. To me it does not cause you just can't grab a good Wario that easy. If Peach was to have the advantage, it has to me more that just that.

But as I said before. I don't know the match up.

From what I've played of Peach vs Wario, her aerial maneuverability lets her annoy Wario's usual aircamping game by playing with his spacing, and he can't stick out of range because her turnips have full flexibility of being thrown anywhere. Add to that being able to KO Wario off the top at 93 100% from a grab release and there's quite a bit going for Peach.

On the other hand, her relatively weak airdodge, light weight, and really slow falling speed make it hard for her to get back on her feet when Wario has momentum.

It might be even, or it might be 55:45 in either direction. Either way both characters can really have their way with the other the moment one gains momentum.

 

[Dark.Pch]

When I first fought wario, I had no clue what to do. Last Wario I played was NinjaLink. since I did not know what to do, I just spaced my azz off and it was hurting wario cause of his range. I had to mix it up with a pressure game to get the beats on Wario. Seems Wario has a hard time getting inside a Peach that spaces like hell. Even with his good air game. ha, that's about all I know on this one. Wish I could fight more warios though. I'm lost in this match up.

 

[M@v]

I think Wolf is good where he is. It seems the characters above him get the job done better. There does not seem to be much with wolf. Ether that or The wolfs these day play kinda bleh. Mostly Bair camping to Smash attacks. Then wanting to camp with The blaster.

its moreso that there are like no wolf players...like at all. maybe 2 or 3.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

C'mon Mav. Pick up Wolf. You can be the best Wolf in Pittsburgh! lol

Edit: Huh. I JUST noticed that Dark.Pch started using orange.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Why the hell is wario so high, now I know this list is flawed.

Wario should be 6th at the most, you should take his grab release flaw to consideration.

The rest of the list is mostly accurate, but wolf needs to be higher he has the gayest spam game in the world -____-...

Whilst I still believe Wario may be a bit too high, I understand that he is solid character overall, with a great recovery and aerial game.

If Wolf needs to be higher due to being the "gayest spammer", then Falco and D3 deserve to be SSSSS tier for having a good projectile game and a chaingrab.

 

[Red Arremer]

@FMOI:
Wario is an extremely versatile and good character. His tournament rankings haven't skyrocketed, but the people representing him in tournaments (Reflex, DMG, Fiction and PhantomX, mainly) constantly place high and well, showing that he is capable of winning.

The Grab Releases are not that much of a problem because grabbing a Wario is extremely hard to pull off, making this an annoyance, nothing more. He has no real hard counters, as well, only a few slightly disadvantaged matchups. The Sheik thing, by the way, was discovered after the tier list was released, so using it as an argument is moot and "unfair", if you know what I mean with it. Not to mention it's pretty situational in any case.

He is one of the heavier characters in the game, has incredibly good momentum cancel as well as an amazing recovery, making him one of the longest living opponents in the whole game. He has good killing moves and his offstage game is great. His aerial mobility combined with his floatiness and strong aerial moves make him easily control the air.

Wario has the tools to beat even his harder matchups with a bit of smartness and patience. His only real downsides are a lack of range and a few grab releases, which a good Wario usually can avoid without much trouble. Wario is one of those characters that can play the "Don't get grabbed" card the best.

Oh, sorry, I actually posted something useful. My bad. *goes back to sipping brandy*

^ There you go.

 

[Deathcarter]

If anything, Wolf will move down as Shiek and Pokemon Trainer will overtake him in the tier list due to their advancements and overlooked base strengths.

 

[SilverDoc~]

I know how to use these characters, and I'm in the tournament scene and all with consistant placings in the top 3 department ( despite being in ontario, lol USA ***** )

But I feel that wolfs aerial game, fast smash attacks, reflector, and blaster is enough to keep him high on the D tier list. Or at least low on the C tier list, imo.

Maybe not enough wolfs are in the tourney scene, not sure. Thanks for your responses guys .

As for the top 6, I feel it should be like this. Metaknight, Snake, Falco, Dedede, Wario / diddy, diddy/wario.

Like for the most part they got the top 6 right for S tier, but its not in proper order imho, I guess brawl needs more time to progress / evolve into a more solid tier list.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

My mistake. Let's rephrase that.

He's light weight compared to the rest of the cast. :3

Quick nairs and good DI keep him alive to about 140+%
The only directions relatively easy to kill him are straight up and straight down.

 

[JCav]

i think climbers are just fine where they are but i wouldnt be surprised to see them rise

 

[DMG]

Falco and Dedede are worse than Wario overall though, at least matchup wise.

 

[Popertop]

I'm a deep person. When it comes to Peach i just can't take it easy.

And I have played good snakes that camped me. I don't know about the other peach players though. All I know is ever since I learned how to do this, Snake has been less trouble. Snake does not bother me at all. To me, he is just another character to beat up with Peach.

what good snakes have you beaten?

 

[Pughead]

I will not tolerate this! Wolf and Ike should be in the GOD tier! why? BECAUSE I MAIN THEM... I'm gonna go cry...

 

[Deathcarter]

Falco and Dedede are worse than Wario overall though, at least matchup wise.

I do agree that Dedede has worse matchups than Wario, but Dedede is grossily underestimated in the matchup department in general, imo. You have Falco, Olimar, and Ice Climbers as his only turly bad matchups. I beleive everyone of his other bad matchups are closer to even than we think.

MK: MK has to kill DDD at extrodanary levels whereas DDD has one of the most powerful vertical kill moves. Unfortunately, MK does not have an onstage move that propells an enemy in a horizontal trajectory. This results in him not being able to kill DDD nearly as easily as he can others.

Diddy Kong: He has edgeguarding to kill his opponents early. DDD is not that easily gimped thanks to the stupendous height he receives from his UpB. Diddy may run around King Dedede like a fly maneuvers around a human, but he needs to land three times as many hits as Dedede does in order to kill him; DDD however, does not have that much trouble hitting the monkey for someone of his mobility.


These are my summarized opinions on the DDD's troubled top tier matchups I dispute. I can give a more indepth summary on them and the high tiers if you or anyone wants to dispute my claim of DDD not being beaten by the amount high tiers people generally beleive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If anything, Wolf will move down as Shiek and Pokemon Trainer will overtake him in the tier list due to their advancements and overlooked base strengths.

I dunno; Wolf's pretty solid. Sheik, maybe, but Pokemon Trainer? I'd be fairly surprised if Wolf dropped to lower than Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Zankoku]

Unfortunately, MK does not have an onstage move that propells an enemy in a horizontal trajectory.

Jump and Shuttle Loop.

 

[Shaya]

Falco and Dedede are worse than Wario overall though, at least matchup wise.

Dedede will **** you with a stick with a fat thing at the e... wait going a bit too far Shaya.


Dedede's disadvantaged match ups all have a large degree of stage dependance on them. Just about every one of D3's disadvantages I can never win on Final Destination. Take it to Battlefield and I'm 2 stocking some of D3's "30:70s". With stage striking in place, and proper consideration of stages when it comes to match up ratios, I honestly think D3's hardest match up would be 40:60 (ICs could be 35:65...). Inui agrees, don't bother him about it.

Falco isn't so lucky; even on his best stages his counters are still counters... all his counters excel against Falco in just about every legal stage... maybe not Brinstar (lol).

 

[Gindler]

I've seen good D3s beat good climbers. Lots of Bthrow and Bair.

Only super horrible I can't bare to watch matchup with him is probably falco, it's so boring.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, abusing D3's fast and semipowerful fthrow/bthrow is very excellent against ICs. Quick seperation, the player controlled one will generally always get grabbed first, and then leaving the silly one to get stomped.

It's a winnable match up though. And yes, D3 vs Falco if the dedede doesn't want to get ****ted over has to play extremely gay. But by doing so D3 can win on the right stages.

 

[Commander_Beef]

what good snakes have you beaten?

JonT from southern California.

 

[Deathcarter]

I dunno; Wolf's pretty solid. Sheik, maybe, but Pokemon Trainer? I'd be fairly surprised if Wolf dropped to lower than Pokemon Trainer.

To be fair, Pokemon Trainer's base attributes were heavily ignored at first because of the perception that he sucked. Which is ignorant since unlike other low tiers, two-thirds of his overall moveset are composed of a high C/bottom B tier character and a low C tier character. Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge Wolf is good, but he didn't have to work to ascend the tier list; he was just placed up relatively high and he gradually descended down the list.

I pretty much agree with Supermodel from Paris that players of characters like PT, ZSS, Mario (not currently, but he shows signs of being the next tier list's rising star character), Sonic, Wario, Peach and Diddy Kong, whom were initially over 5 positions off from their presumed optimal position, had to work their butts off to simply get the ball rolling, where as simplistic characters that were initially considered high (compared to other characters currently occupying the same tier with them) only moved down when other characters userped them.

It is a common reoccuring theme: Characters generally are allowed to keep their position until those lower than them prove their worth and promptly ascend the list (Donkey Kong and Samus are the only apparent exceptions to this rule as we see the effect of DDD on DK's success and that Samus sucks.) The only problem is that lower characters have to work like HELL just to noticably move up while the players of higher characters are not burdened with the burden of proof that they deserve their particular position.

Example: NO character made a fall as big as the rises of Olimar and Sonic in the second and third list respectively.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, Pokemon Trainer's base attributes were heavily ignored at first because of the perception that he sucked.

Maybe he does suck.

I think the biggest idea is that in the beginning, everyone was quick to grab who they initially did well with, because the metagame had barely advanced and there was no good way to tell the tiers accurately right off the bat as a result.

 

[Deathcarter]

Maybe he does suck.

I think the biggest idea is that in the beginning, everyone was quick to grab who they initially did well with, because the metagame had barely advanced and there was no good way to tell the tiers accurately right off the bat as a result.

Is that suck as in compared to the S tier or suck as in having crap options like Captain Falcon, but of course to a lesser extent suck? If it is the former, then I agree. If it is the latter, then I am not feeling you as PT just isn't fundamentally bad like Zelda/Ike/Lucas (well, maybe Ivysaur is).

And remember, it was demonstrated in this thread that some posters still won't let go of the fact that Zelda is trash despite Sucessor of Rapheal coming into the thread on numerous occasions stating otherwise. The burden of proof does lie on the lower characters to prove they deserve to move above the higher characters. I think PT is better than Wolf is because you have at least demonstrated the Trainer's capabilities; provided, it was only once on a large scale, but that is MUCH more than you can say about Wolf. I have not seen anything impressive from the spacie since Brawl started.

Provided, I do second the trainer after Pit so I am a little biased. Though I do think PT is in the right tier for this version of the list (he still needs to be above Zelda and Bowser though.).

 

[Nanaki]

Maybe he does suck.

I think the biggest idea is that in the beginning, everyone was quick to grab who they initially did well with, because the metagame had barely advanced and there was no good way to tell the tiers accurately right off the bat as a result.

Blasphemy!

I think you're right though (2nd part at least). Everyone latched onto Snake hard at first because he was so easy to control the match with. M2K start out DDD and moved to MK as he realized just how good he is. Nobody played Diddy because Diddy was hard to kill with (until Ninjalink came along and started beating MK's with him).

It's at least good motivation to characters in the lower tiers. Your character might have potential! See what you can do with it!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is that suck as in compared to the S tier or suck as in having crap options like Captain Falcon, but of course to a lesser extent suck? If it is the former, then I agree. If it is the latter, then I am not feeling you as PT just isn't fundamentally bad like Zelda/Ike/Lucas (well, maybe Ivysaur is).

And remember, it was demonstrated in this thread that some posters still won't let go of the fact that Zelda is trash despite Sucessor of Rapheal coming into the thread on numerous occasions stating otherwise. The burden of proof does lie on the lower characters to prove they deserve to move above the higher characters. I think PT is better than Wolf is because you have at least demonstrated the Trainer's capabilities; provided, it was only once on a large scale, but that is MUCH more than you can say about Wolf. I have not seen anything impressive from the spacie since Brawl started.

Provided, I do second the trainer after Pit so I am a little biased. Though I do think PT is in the right tier for this version of the list (he still needs to be above Zelda and Bowser though.).

PT is certainly better off than the characters you listed, but I have an idea of where every character stands that doesn't really reflect many spots on the tier list.

I don't think he sucks. I think he's a pretty decent character. I was only listing the possibility. Many people believe it.

 

[Count]

There were plenty of people that played diddy toward the beginning, its just that none of us understood what he could do.

 

[LuigiKing]

Reflex... question for you.

What do you think about Ivy? I feel like he is holding back PT in general, and thats one of the reasons I don't play PT at all... If people manage to get around playing as Ivy and sticking with majority squirtle and tanking with zard is there a possibility trainer can get better? I dunno as I've never played a PT main in my life.

 

[Darknid]

Ivysaur is pretty bad, but whip him out on norfair or pirate ship and he can be good.

Also, PT doesn't belong above Bowser. Bowser, with top quality representation, could be top of mid tier/bottom of high tier. He's got all the tools, he can overcome pretty much everything but d3 problems, and he's got some great things going for him, but without representation he isn't much as far as a tier list is concerned. As a character, he has more things going for him than all 3 of PT's characters(except MAYBE squirtle, but still probably so)

Then again, D3 is a helluva setback. For instance, I wouldn't put DK in the same sentence as Peach and Pit if I wasn't aware of D3's infinite on him. DK could easily be 6th or 7th without the infinite, but one character holds him back so much, perhaps having problems with D3 just wrecks your character completely and shaves a few tiers off of their placement.

 

[deepseadiva]

Is it really just the recovery holding Ivysaur back? If it is, then **** - PT mains need to get on the Olimar train.