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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Kewkky

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inb4edit :(

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, perhaps that Falco's recovery is quite adequate -- i.e. Phantasm is so quick that, despite his deficiencies, Falco isn't actually gimped that often -- and the same could be said of Wario's grab release issues? *shrug* If that's what you're saying, then that was exactly my point. After all, not every character can take advantage of the problems in Falco's recovery. Where Snake or ROB can punish him well, Dedede can't really do much against it. Likewise with Wario being grabbed on flat ground, though almost every character can force an air release on a slope without a platform overhead. (e.g. PictoChat's edges, various spots in Rainbow Cruise or Delfino.) Wario can also accidentally air release if he causes a jump break while button-mashing to struggle out of a grab, though a "good" Wario should rarely make that mistake.

I would've said Olimar, instead of Falco, but I'm pretty sure almost everyone can gimp him. :/ Anyway, the point was that Wario's grab release problems seemed to be entirely ignored this time around, which perhaps inflated Wario's place beyond where he belongs.
Sorry, i didn't say it clearer.

I meant his phantasm IS telegraphed. If he doesn't aim for the stage, he aims for the ledge. If he doesn't aim for the ledge, he aims for the stage. And his upB leaves us craving for more distance, so spikes/dair gimps seriously hinder Falco's game. With Kirby, bairing Falco's phantasm is extremely easy (Fox's is intensely hard due to shine mindgames, Falco doesn't have this), and dairing Falco can also break his phantasm, sending him down to the depths (or he upBs to return, where an edgehog will finish him off).

See? it's easy to say what you'll do to a character if you catch them in the situation you desire, and completely evade the fact that most people will try their very best to avoid the situations, and succeed. I'll admit I don't always pull these off, because my opponents learn and adapt. Warios are no different: they might get grabbed (Fiction got grabbed a few times in the tourney), but when they know the grab's coming, they'll just stay airborne or find a different way to deal with it... And they did find their ways, hence why so many people keep saying "Wario, easy to grab? Try grabbing that slippery little ****".

So you see, Falco has this huge disadvantage... Vertical recovery (sideB), and Horizontal rcovery (upB). If you know this, then it's easy to punish Falco for what you know he's going to do... And even with this huge gimpable disadvantage, he made it to the top 3 last tier list, and now only went down because Wario went up. Wario's disadvantage is air relases, but that can be managed easier, and is not as threatening as telegraphed recoveries.
 

tocador

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I smell it..... It is the "Wario Hater movement". I mean c'mon, since wario being third everyone now thinks he was wayyyyyyyyyy hiped, and how his "horrendous" grab release issues shouldn't allow that, because "not getting grabbed" is so "Icy age".

Jokes appart.

Wario has the pottencial to be third(second if god may help us) and really deserves it more then falco/DDD/*insert char here*. You seem hes "exploitables" are really not as bad as you think. Sure sometimes you can face a kill move here and there, but you can also not be grabbed, or maybe you can just pummel it and force a ground release. It really isnt that bad.

But let's take falco: When someone has a cra** a** recovery, that a simple edge guard can completly scr** and you say "but if wario getts grabbed he loses" its just hipocrisy. When you cant recover, it dosent matter if they throw you off stage at 0 or 999%, if you cant recover YOU ARE going to die. It isnt like wario that only if your grabbed over x% and IF you dont brake it and IF you dont end on a plataform you die.

A..... Wario is to fu**** awsome!
 

VodkaHaze

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Nice! Wario got third place!! Hooray! Wow, Sonic accelerated upward. People are using him more, and has a decent metagame. I think Jigglypuff and G&W should be higher, and CF and Ganondorf tied for last. Those are to only ones I don't agree with though.
 

Mr.E

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Sorry, i didn't say it clearer.

[snip]
Alright, thanks for clearing that up. :p But my point still stands. Falco has a crappy recovery, no denying that. Yeah, a good Falco player will mix it up enough to usually get around the opponent's edgeguarding, but the deficiencies can't be worked around 100% of the time. Sometimes, he gets gimped, edgehogged, or just eats a lot of extra damage before getting back to the stage. Some characters have better tools to do it than others... I'm sure you can connect the dots to Wario with his grab release issue.

And yeah, Falco is just as high on the tier list (3rd previously, only ousted by Wario now), so it's not to say that Wario's little "problem" necessarily means he can't be that high. Indeed, I think it's considerable that Falco also has a beast of a chain grab, the best projectile camping in the game, and favorable match-ups with most of the rest of S-Tier. (Pretty much all but MK and, well, he's MK). Wario is more known for having largely neutral match-ups, which makes me consider him more along the level of Marth near the top of A-Tier, but it seems nobody shares my opinion in that regard. *shrug*
 

Kewkky

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That's probably why he's so high then, even-to-favorable matchups with the rest of the cast, he's practically a mini-MK if you look at him from that perspective... And since his grab-release issues can be maneuvered just like Falco's recovery issues, then it's not as threatening of a problem as it seems to be.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Oh, yeah okay, I knew that. Made it seem like there were certian angles he can't get you no matter what. Thing is with proper spacing, that isn't even an issue. What if he spaces himself so if you come at him from below, you get hit by his dair, and far enough that you can't punish him for it because he can start another one? I don't think it's too huge of a deal though its slightly exploitable.
 

Ryusuta

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I've heard it said that R.O.B. is a lot like Melee Samus, in that he's slowly becoming less and less intimidating as time goes by. I remember the early days of Brawl, where R.O.B. was considered one of the scariest characters to face. Heh, wow... that was loooo-ooong ago.
 

Red Arremer

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Yea, I remember that too. When the game came out in Japan (I had imported it), I played it with my roomie and he first thought R.O.B. was the best character in the game, lol.
 

Mr.E

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ROB's backside "blind spot" is hardly a problem since his BAir auto-spaces and outranges almost everything, not to mention he can turn around in the air with ease. The underside is the real problem: his DAir is extremely slow and position stalls and he's floaty with average drift speed. Not every character can take advantage of his weak underside and he can often push to the ledge uncontested to mitigate the issue but it's still a notable disadvantage. To tie it into my past few posts, it's his "Falco's recovery" or "Wario's grab release," if you will. :p

Likewise to them, the rest of ROB's game is pretty darned solid and he's probably one of the more neutral characters besides Marth and Wario. It's a shame nobody reps him. And I <3 the Melee Samus comparison. Shame Samus got neutered, but her legacy lives on in ROB.
 
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ROB's backside "blind spot" is hardly a problem since his BAir auto-spaces and outranges almost everything, not to mention he can turn around in the air with ease. The underside is the real problem: his DAir is extremely slow and position stalls and he's floaty with average drift speed. Not every character can take advantage of his weak underside and he can often push to the ledge uncontested to mitigate the issue but it's still a notable disadvantage. To tie it into my past few posts, it's his "Falco's recovery" or "Wario's grab release," if you will. :p

Likewise to them, the rest of ROB's game is pretty darned solid and he's probably one of the more neutral characters besides Marth and Wario. It's a shame nobody reps him. And I <3 the Melee Samus comparison. Shame Samus got neutered, but her legacy lives on in ROB.
No one represents RoB o.0 I thought he was one of the more represented characters.
 

DMG

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ROB is pretty poorly represented at this stage of Brawl. A lot of the former ROB mains quit him and moved on to someone else.

Wario's also poorly represented, not person wise (he has amazing people representing him haha), but quantity wise we barely have real Wario players.
 

Kewkky

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ROB is pretty poorly represented at this stage of Brawl. A lot of the former ROB mains quit him and moved on to someone else.

Wario's also poorly represented, not person wise (he has amazing people representing him haha), but quantity wise we barely have real Wario players.
Most people moved to the top tiers of the last tier lists (DDD, Falco, MKs and Snakes for example... ICs in a sense also), abandoning their old mains because they want to play with the best options the game has to offer, in order to win with the most advantages that can be given Which is not a bad thing, mind you! Just... It lessens the representation of other characters, and they end up looking like the Top tiers are leaps ahead of everyone else, when some of the other tiers could be just as good (or better) as the current top tiers.

We can just wait and see how this new tier list influences people's decisions, and the recent re-confirmation of MK's banning being dismissed yet again will probably be the drive behind people's main changes.

I can only hope more kirby mains start appearing at big tourneys and getting far, because Kirby needs the rep if he's to maintain his high tier status.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Hell, almost every character in the game has a grab release on him, yet he manages to be absolutely not hindered by it. Grabbing a Wario, lolz.
Zelda has an easy Grab Release into Lightning kick on him... that SOUNDS great... until you realize that she'll have an easier time hitting him with a lightning kick alone than she will grabbing him... and lightning kicks aren't the easiest attacks to land reliably.

It's not that the GR doesn't HELP, it's just not too devestating.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Rob's problem is that he hasn't gone anywhere since brawl came out. Where most of the cast has advanced, rob is pretty much identical. Good character, but he needs something new.

AKA, he doesn't move down on the teir list, others move up.

DMG said:
Wario's also poorly represented, not person wise (he has amazing people representing him haha), but quantity wise we barely have real Wario players.
High learning curve does that.
 

DMG

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High learning curve does that.
Yeah his learning curve is tough. I remember doing reverse main matches, where I would use someone that they mained like Marth or MK and the other guy would use Wario and they would just shake their heads asking me how I can play so well with this weird character lol.
 

Popertop

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most rob players just don't anticipate/predict enough.

and Rob's Grab range isn't that great.
if robs just thought a little more they would be good.

you gotta understand though, powershielding REALLY hurts Robs game
 

PhantomX

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Please, go look at most any high-level Wario videos. Reflex, Fiction, DMG, doesn't matter who you watch. They certainly don't avoid being grabbed entirely. Occasionally, as above if true, they might get away with it for a match. But hey, M2K didn't avoid getting grabbed by lain's Ice Climbers for an entire set either. :rolleyes:
We get grabbed depending on character and how much we can be punished by said grabs. We are much more likely to be grabbed by characters at lower percents, when we're not at lethal and would prefer to take the risks for damage building over playing safe and not getting grabbed. That doesn't stop us from not being grabbed when necessary. You have to remember that this grab release isn't a weakness only for us, but for our opponents as well. What's the first thing people are going to try to do once we hit kill percentage? Try to grab us. What do we do when this time comes? Bait and punish that ****. I have taken entire stocks of people before they manage to get that needed grab on me. People by now don't even bother, aside from throwing out a pivot grab here and there in the hopes I misspace.

It's safer to go for spacing and easier to land aerials to get that finishing blow, b/c you'll be punished less for it. I live to 160+ on average vs Marths and Peaches and Sheiks, who can kill Wario at like 110 if they get the grab off. Aerial control, AND AN AIRDODGE RETAINING FULL AERIAL CONTROL, are THE BEST spacing tools, you seem to be unable to get that through your head.
 

Dark.Pch

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I have a Question I want a member from The SBR to answer?

Just how the hell DK and Pit went over Peach?
 

DMG

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When I get grabbed, it's because I'm not playing gay enough.

You ever see those matches vs Razer, including the ones from WHOBO, where I get a lead on him fairly early, and yet I am still trying to hit him? Imagine if I didn't try to hit him at all once I had those leads. I was grabbed infrequently when I was APPROACHING, now you have to wonder how much I would have got grabbed if all I focused on was avoiding him for 7 minutes. Kinda like me vs him on Brinstar, except for the parts where I came right at him with the lead. So 8 minutes of pure running.
 

DMG

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Because they actually have a passable movement speed.
Well it's not just that, but frankly a lot of what Peach can do is based on the opponent messing up/not understanding their options as well as they should.

Like when Peach Dairs, I'm surprised how rare it seems for people to SDI out of it, at least in the matches I have watched. Like, I assumed that this late into Brawl's metagame that people would find it fairly common to SDI stuff more frequently/learn the timing to SDI stuff better, but I still see tournament matches where the other person will barely SDI, pick the wrong direction, or not SDI it at all.
 
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