The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Palpi]

only thing i dont like are DKs and GaWs placement, everything else seems pretty legit

Did I not get the memo that called for the switching of definitions for Legit and Incorrect?

 

[laki]

S Tier
Meta Knight
Snake


Top Tier
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Wario
Marth
Falco

High Tier
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Donkey Kong
Zero Suit Samus

Mid Tierr
Lucario
Kirby
Wolf
Pit
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Peach


Lower Tier
Sheik :shiek:
Sonic
Bowser
Pokémon Trainer
Ike
Zelda
Mario

Bottom Tier
Lucas
Yoshi
Ness
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

I don't like the letter system. Seems too pedantic. High low makes more sense. Enjoy.

 

[ook]

Somebody loves monkeys.

Well why would I play DK if I didn't think he was good?

Wait until you see the placements for Ike, Fox, Link Ness and Mario.

Also, Sheik below Fox and Wolf is a big wtf. Hell Sheik in the same tier as anyone in her tier is a wtf. She got the highest C tier placing in Genesis, which as aside from a single B tier, was the highest outside of the top tiers. Surely that has to speak a lot about her viability.

Yeah I agree with the bottom paragraph, I messed up the sheik placement. Sheik is actually pretty good. Edited to put him/her higher

Ike was too high. >_> He's not better then Fox for example.

See, I disagree with this. Ike is pretty amazing. He's got ridiculous range (he outranges even DK) and his moves have.. surprisingly little lag for the amout of power and range they have (except for a couple like dsmash that you should never use). If he predicts what you're gonna do, you're toast.

Fox aint bad, he's about the same as Ike. But unfortunately, you can't show even placements; you have to pick someone to be higher. In this case, I pick Ike, if only for his range.

i actually somewhat agree with snake over mk but then i changed my mind

This is
I don't get what the big deal about MK is. Sure he's good, but... he's not THAT much better than anyone else. He's light, he has no projectiles, he has a little above average range... eh. No doubt he's top-tier. But for some reason (possibly a lot of top players playing him?) he got really hyped up by a lot of people, and now no one wants to even dispute him being the best. Think for yourselvesssss



EDIT:

^I respect DK's placement (a little) but not G&W, Falco and Wario. Oh, and PT, Falcon, and Mario's makes me wanna cry.

I'm sorry...

Edit: No way that Toon Link and Olimar, or even Marth, are better than Falco...

Can someone tell me what's so great about Falco?

I mean... I just don't see it. Is it the chaingrab? The laser? The side-b? Combos? A combination of those?
He just seems... good... but not 4th best in the game good. He has a lot of the same problems other characters have, and his laser isn't that great since he can really only have one at a time (on the same plane). Just shield it.... It's not like Snake's - or even Toon Link's multiple and exploding projectiles, which are a pain to deal with.



And it ALWAYS makes me laugh when people talk about DK's "bad vertical recovery," when FALCO is supposedly the 4th best character in the game. Falco's side-b has ZERO - ZERO vertical distance, and his up-b is incredibly easy to gimp/edgehog. DK has better recovery than Falco....

 

[Palpi]

Hyped for over a year? Please. You just have not experienced a true top MK if you think snake is better than him.

And if DK was really that high, his tourney placing wouldn't suck ****.

Important switched imo for Laki's list would be move IC up 3 then switch marth and falco.

Well why would I play DK if I didn't think he was good?

Because you're dumb?

I kid. I kid.

 

[laki]

Well why would I play DK if I didn't think he was good?

See, I disagree with this. Ike is pretty amazing. He's got ridiculous range (he outranges even DK) and his moves have.. surprisingly little lag for the amout of power and range they have (except for a couple like dsmash that you should never use). If he predicts what you're gonna do, you're toast.


Fox aint bad, he's about the same as Ike. But unfortunately, you can't show even placements; you have to pick someone to be higher. In this case, I pick Ike, if only for his range.


This is
I don't get what the big deal about MK is. Sure he's good, but... he's not THAT much better than anyone else. He's light, he has no projectiles, he has a little above average range... eh. No doubt he's top-tier. But for some reason (possibly a lot of top players playing him?) he got really hyped up by a lot of people, and now no one wants to even dispute him being the best. Think for yourselvesssss

Ike gets predictable with his stuff seeing as he has only so many viable moves in most situations since his stuff DOES have a lot of lag. Fox can approach better than ike, has about equal killing power since the chances of landing F-smash against a good opponent are lol and since fox can combo into U-smash and fox has a projectile to force aproaches. Theres other stuff but for now fox>>Ike.

Also, on Meta, he's the best char. Above average range is false info. He has the best poke(s) in the game, has exceptional range on all areals and has tornado =/ Being able to play hyper offensively in a campy game is a boon as well. Oh, and if planking isn't banned...yeah.

Edit: I hate Falco but he's pretty beast. Chaingrab gives you the lead and from there he can laser camp you. Lasers are SUCH a great tool. They give you control of the match and are very hard to deal with for many chars especially the larger ones. He also has a good mixup game. His only problems seem to be KO power which isn't a big deal really and hyper gimpability. His range is average but his attacks are very fast. He has one of the best jabs in the game and lots of psuedo combos as well. A solid char all around.

@Palpi: I do believe that Marth is superior to Falco, the only glaring thing is Falco doesn't get reemed by metaknight like Marth was. If it weren't for Meta, marth would prolly be top 4 in the game. As is, I believe marth has better overall matchups than falco and meta aside does better against the top tiers unless someone can give me reasonable arguments that say otherwise.

On icies, they may actually be top but I'm remaining skeptical though I'll prolly be proven wrong with time.

 

[Jupz]

Nice list Laki!

I would swap ZSS with Pit and Wolf with Toon Link.

 

[laki]

Nice list Laki!

I would swap ZSS with Pit and Wolf with Toon Link.

Thanks.

From wolf to peach, some placements may be slightly off though there is no way that Pit goes above ZSS or Luc. Wolf and tink though? Possible. My knowledge of wolf is considerably more than my knowledge of Tink.

 

[Jupz]

I feel Pit is really underrated, but whatever.

I liked your high tier and I suppose thats all that matters xD

 

[da K.I.D.]

pit is not overrated, hes just not all that good.

 

[laki]

pit is not overrated, hes just not all that good.

Pretty much. Though good is relative. I'd say anyone that doesn't stand a legit chance of whining a tourney by themselves isn't good which pretty much means everyone below I think Pika on my list and that's being generous.

 

[Dark.Pch]

And if DK was really that high, his tourney placing wouldn't suck ****.

They are not all that cause the people using DK are not all that. If top metas starting placing like garbage in tournaments, you gonna sit here and say he is not all that?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Sheik= way to low

 

[shinyspoon42]

I know Snake is #2, and obviously players are proving it, but I'd like to specifically know why. I want to see what people think make him #2.

And at the comments on Pit- Pit is the character I use second most, and I think he is both underrated and overrated. I think he has the 2nd best projectile in the game (not counting items like diddys nanners or snakes nades, and Falco having the best) a underused gimp game, and good options in most situations. He has a vastly untapped spacing game, through wingdashing, boostwalking, and arrowlooping (to add another projectile while you move around freely is extremely underrated) as well as simply learning to space his attacks. Unfortunately, he is slow. He runs average, has lower aerial mobility, and his attacks all take awhile to startup. His finishers are predictable and thus hard to land, and his arrow, while being amazing in some aspects, is weak and easily shieldable/dodgeable/reflectable. I am conflicted about the character, and I think his metagame could be improved vastly, but he is underrepresented, and his boards have staled because they are trying to "go back to the basics" and will quell any attempt to talk about his useful techniques. He has aspects that make him a good character, but thats it. The farthest he could go is bottom A tier, and even then only if he got picked up by an Ally or M2K or Reflex.

 

[Albert.]

Japanese Pits know incredible s***.

(especially campy s***)

 

[Dark.Pch]

S Tier
Meta Knight
Snake


Top Tier
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Wario
Marth
Falco

High Tier
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch
Donkey Kong
Zero Suit Samus

Mid Tierr
Lucario
Kirby
Wolf
Pit
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Peach


Lower Tier
Sheik :shiek:
Sonic
Bowser
Pokémon Trainer
Ike
Zelda
Mario

Bottom Tier
Lucas
Yoshi
Ness
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

I don't like the letter system. Seems too pedantic. High low makes more sense. Enjoy.

Ok I just now realize this post. WTF at Peach being that low and under these characters?

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Palpi: I do believe that Marth is superior to Falco, the only glaring thing is Falco doesn't get reemed by metaknight like Marth was. If it weren't for Meta, marth would prolly be top 4 in the game. As is, I believe marth has better overall matchups than falco and meta aside does better against the top tiers unless someone can give me reasonable arguments that say otherwise.

On icies, they may actually be top but I'm remaining skeptical though I'll prolly be proven wrong with time.

MK grabs the ledge...


Marth has problems with a planking MK, but Falco can do basically nothing against him, and for Marth it's really not that much worse then his other approach situation.

 

[phi1ny3]

I know Snake is #2, and obviously players are proving it, but I'd like to specifically know why. I want to see what people think make him #2.

And at the comments on Pit- Pit is the character I use second most, and I think he is both underrated and overrated. I think he has the 2nd best projectile in the game (not counting items like diddys nanners or snakes nades, and Falco having the best) a underused gimp game, and good options in most situations. He has a vastly untapped spacing game, through wingdashing, boostwalking, and arrowlooping (to add another projectile while you move around freely is extremely underrated) as well as simply learning to space his attacks. Unfortunately, he is slow. He runs average, has lower aerial mobility, and his attacks all take awhile to startup. His finishers are predictable and thus hard to land, and his arrow, while being amazing in some aspects, is weak and easily shieldable/dodgeable/reflectable. I am conflicted about the character, and I think his metagame could be improved vastly, but he is underrepresented, and his boards have staled because they are trying to "go back to the basics" and will quell any attempt to talk about his useful techniques. He has aspects that make him a good character, but thats it. The farthest he could go is bottom A tier, and even then only if he got picked up by an Ally or M2K or Reflex.

M2K once trolled the Pit boards saying he "wanted to pick him up". It got lots of lols and heart attacks. XD

 

[Suspect]

Wasnt m2k, it was someone on his account

 

[shinyspoon42]

I was there, but I refrained from posting because I suspected he would say "lol just kidding!" but it was someone else on his account. Either way, pits got shafted at the end and were all hyped for it.

Oh, and whoever said Japanese pits know incredible campy **** is dead wrong. There metagame is less advanced then ours and they still haven't caught up, and so they haven't realized that pit gets outclassed by other characters. I think you are referring specifically to masashi, the japanese pit player who is hyped for being so great. He would get crushed if he went up against the best players here in the states.

 

[Deathcarter]

Ok I just now realize this post. WTF at Peach being that low and under these characters?

Did you completely not notice ook placing Peach below Ike or just facepalmed irl and forget about/decided against making a reply?






Anyway, I'm not going to comment on the lower tiers, but the Top Tiers will probably be extremely close to perfection next tier list, aka look something like this:

Finish Him!!!! Tier
Mortal Kombat
Snake
Diddy Kong

Top Tier
Falco
Wario
Marth
King Dedede
Ice Climbers (if they do not lose steam between now and the next list)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK grabs the ledge...


Marth has problems with a planking MK, but Falco can do basically nothing against him, and for Marth it's really not that much worse then his other approach situation.

For using a character that can't do anything against planking SK92 did pretty well.

This is also assuming a ledge grab rule isn't in effect, which is becoming a trend among some tournaments I've seen. Pound 4 doesn't have it, although banned standing infinites.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Did you completely not notice ook placing Peach below Ike or just facepalmed irl and forget about/decided against making a reply?

I just got no words. I can surley say people have not learned anything with this character at all.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If only someone could educate them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hey Dark Pch could you tell us a little bit about Peach?

 

[Nic64]

MK grabs the ledge...


Marth has problems with a planking MK, but Falco can do basically nothing against him, and for Marth it's really not that much worse then his other approach situation.

You need a lead to plank, it's a situational advantage for MK over Falco, where as MK just straight up ***** Marth regardless of stage stock or percent.

 

[Yonder]

Did you completely not notice ook placing Peach below Ike or just facepalmed irl and forget about/decided against making a reply?






Anyway, I'm not going to comment on the lower tiers, but the Top Tiers will probably be extremely close to perfection next tier list, aka look something like this:

Finish Him!!!! Tier
Mortal Kombat
Snake
Diddy Kong

Top Tier
Falco
Wario
Marth
King Dedede
Ice Climbers (if they do not lose steam between now and the next list)

This is what the next tier list top should look like, Game and Watch right after or before the IC's would also work. And Nice Mortal Kombat touch XD

 

[shinyspoon42]

Tier list from Dark Peach;
Top tier-
Bottom tier trash that doesn't matter- every other character in the game, obviously.

Dark, feel free to explain why.


Edit at yonder- G dubs is dropping, ICs are rising, G dubs will drop past them. G dubs suffers from predictability, overly simple play, and crap MUs against the characters that matter.

 

[Yonder]

My thoughts....


EDITED to move G&W down, Falco up, Sheik up


S Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

A Tier
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch

B Tier
Wario
Marth
King Dedede
Falco
Olimar
Toon Link
Pikachu
R.O.B.

C Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Pit
Kirby
Sheik :shiek:
Luigi
Ike
Fox
Peach

D Tier
Wolf
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Link
Zelda

E Tier
Samus
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer
Ness

F Tier
Mario
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Mario bottom 4? Please explain, i'm curious.

And DK's placement I'm not curious about cause I flatout dissagree and sorta smell Bias >_<. Anyone who's ***** so badly by DDD that he rarely places amazingly in tournaments is not 4th in my books.

And there's some other minor muck ups throughout the list not really worth mentioning, just minor...

Oh, and MK>Snake, although it's not a huge mistake or anything, since Snake is pretty good...just not #1.

...Falcon>Ganon. That is all now.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If only someone could educate them.

I know right?

Tier list from Dark Peach;
Top tier-
Bottom tier trash that doesn't matter- every other character in the game, obviously.

Dark, feel free to explain why.

What???????????????????????

 

[shinyspoon42]

The tier list a newbie would make...

1. - This guy is so overpowered, his F-smash does over 9000!11!!!
2. - He does so much dmg, I'm super cereal
3. - Fsmash Fsmash Fsmash


Further edits to be made once the noobs find out that the c stick isn't the only thing you can use...

 

[dainbramage]

For some light entertainment, the worst tier list I could find (and worst page on the internet in general).


http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Kperfekt722

 

[gm jack]

Oh dear god! Snake worst in the game? Someone sent Ally on his ***.

 

[adumbrodeus]

For using a character that can't do anything against planking SK92 did pretty well.

This is also assuming a ledge grab rule isn't in effect, which is becoming a trend among some tournaments I've seen. Pound 4 doesn't have it, although banned standing infinites.

Ok, we are talking about the SBR tierlist. That means it's assuming the SBR ruleset.

Planking is not banned under the SBR ruleset, neither is standing infinites.


Therefore, both should be incorperated into the tierlist.


Also, that was what the "basically" was for, SK92 is amazing.

You need a lead to plank, it's a situational advantage for MK over Falco, where as MK just straight up ***** Marth regardless of stage stock or percent.

...

No.

MK ***** marth on approach because tornado and ftilt option select him and beat pretty much everything on reaction, and beats Marth very slightly from the neutral position due to the superior dtilt range. Marth actually is at an advantage when MK has to approach him, though very slight.


For Falco, except at far range, MK wins in the neutral position, and wins very slightly on approach, similarly he wins reasonably when Falco approaches him.


Planking puts MK in a position where he cannot be forced to approach (eliminating Falco's biggest advantage), and furthermore, puts him at a position that it's very very difficult for Falco to actually hit him at.

Suddenly it moves from "Falco can approach, but with difficulty" to "Falco has pretty much no chance of approaching"

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ok, we are talking about the SBR tierlist. That means it's assuming the SBR ruleset.

Planking is not banned under the SBR ruleset, neither is standing infinites.

Therefore, both should be incorperated into the tierlist.

But typical trends in normal tournaments has lead to the SBR to consider, or change, a few things in the typical rule set. An arguement came up in the pro-ban debate awhile back that stated a few rules had been adjusted to deal with the ever present threat of MK, such as certain stages moved to beginning banned (Luigi's Mansion). It certainly may not have been a major factor contributing to the banning of Luigi's mansion, but it was certainly a consideration.

Other things of MK I believe have been brought up in accordence of changing the ruleset. Ledge grab would be one that I think was probably debated. I have no prove of them doing so, it just seems likely that they would have at the very least given it some debate given the issue being so heavily debated for over year.

Other debated topics like standing infinites might very well change in the future. But until then, the standard way it is.

I actually rather like the current standard rules. Whatever the SBR decides ends up being coming the very basis for what most tournaments play as. The larger the tournament, the more it falls in line with the standard SBR ruleset. By not banning, or suggesting it be common place to do this or that actually gives tournament organizers a bit more power into deciding the ideal tourament while still focusing on a ruleset everyone is familiar with. Such a large list of CPs and neutral selection. Not banning standing infinites means that DDD can particpate more in a tourament while lowering the effects of others.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok, we are talking about the SBR tierlist. That means it's assuming the SBR ruleset.

Planking is not banned under the SBR ruleset, neither is standing infinites.


Therefore, both should be incorperated into the tierlist.

Alright.

Also, that was what the "basically" was for, SK92 is amazing.

Yes he is.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But typical trends in normal tournaments has lead to the SBR to consider, or change, a few things in the typical rule set. An arguement came up in the pro-ban debate awhile back that stated a few rules had been adjusted to deal with the ever present threat of MK, such as certain stages moved to beginning banned (Luigi's Mansion). It certainly may not have been a major factor contributing to the banning of Luigi's mansion, but it was certainly a consideration.

Other things of MK I believe have been brought up in accordence of changing the ruleset. Ledge grab would be one that I think was probably debated. I have no prove of them doing so, it just seems likely that they would have at the very least given it some debate given the issue being so heavily debated for over year.

Other debated topics like standing infinites might very well change in the future. But until then, the standard way it is.

I actually rather like the current standard rules. Whatever the SBR decides ends up being coming the very basis for what most tournaments play as. The larger the tournament, the more it falls in line with the standard SBR ruleset. By not banning, or suggesting it be common place to do this or that actually gives tournament organizers a bit more power into deciding the ideal tourament while still focusing on a ruleset everyone is familiar with. Such a large list of CPs and neutral selection. Not banning standing infinites means that DDD can particpate more in a tourament while lowering the effects of others.

If the SBR changes the ruleset then the tierlist changes because of it, it's that simple. Certain rules have a very obvious effect on the metagame, and as of current, because of his issues with this, I think that Falco should go below marth (Marth stays essentially where he is, no jump to S, just falco moves down).


Also the more tournaments that ban it, the more difficult it is to prove a tactic is truly broken, there's no proof that planking is broken, sure it's got a major effect on certain match-ups, but a ban is premature.


Same with standing infinites.

 

[Llumys]

S
Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Diddy Kong
Marth
Ice Climbers

A
Wario
King Dedede
Pikachu
Pikmin & Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
...

Some of the recent lists are just laughable. Who in their right minds would put DK that high?

 

[smashkng]

S
Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Diddy Kong
Marth
Ice Climbers

A
Wario
King Dedede
Pikachu
Pikmin & Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
...

Some of the recent lists are just laughable. Who in their right minds would put DK that high?

How can IC be that high? They have problem matchups with characters like Snake and Marth yet better than Wario? And they are vulnerable to counter picks as well. With Wario FD just need to be banned and solved problem.
And has Fiction left Brawl?

 

[NeoBatou]

How can IC be that high? They have problem matchups with characters like Snake and Marth yet better than Wario? And they are vulnerable to counter picks as well. With Wario FD just need to be banned and solved problem.
And has Fiction left Brawl?

One grab can change the pace of the game...it could have you from wanting to punish the little kids one minute, then the next your shielding in fear that they'll chain grab you and punish you for your foolishness.

Other than that I don't see the reason why Ice Climbers is that much of a threat.......
Diddy is placed right.
Why is Jigglypuff in the same rank as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Link again? I think that's a bunch of bull right there.

 

[smashkng]

One grab can change the pace of the game...it could have you from wanting to punish the little kids one minute, then the next your shielding in fear that they'll chain grab you and punish you for your foolishness.

Other than that I don't see the reason why Ice Climbers is that much of a threat.......
Diddy is placed right.
Why is Jigglypuff in the same rank as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Link again? I think that's a bunch of bull right there.

Wario's close to fully charged Fart can kill at percents like 60% on light characters and it's extremely quick for a such move, so it can also be really good.


And I've posted the number 10000, already so many posts in less than four months?