Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYDxeUszjqo&feature=related
If that's how your region plays Ganondorf, then they fail pretty hard themselves.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
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If that's how your region plays Ganondorf, then they fail pretty hard themselves.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Canada's pretty beast (*cough*Ally*cough*).
I saw a vid of the "best teams in Australia", and the first thing I thought was how sad it was that they probably wouldn't place higher than last in the US.
I saw a vid of the "best teams in Australia", and the first thing I thought was how sad it was that they probably wouldn't place higher than last in the US.
Clai
Smash Lord
A) That match is outdated (I wasn't thinking about teching G&W's D-throw at the time).
B) Hylian is from Texas, not the East Coast, so techincally they're different regions.
C) I don't have any vids from recent tournaments, so I can't show you more recent efforts, I'll just say that most of the people I face put up a lot more pressure against my Ganon than Hylian did in that match. Being pressured is what's going to kill Ganon more than anything.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Still lost though which is what matters.
I'm not going to get into your guys' silly argument, though I will agree with Clai that offline Ganondorf is much more different than Wi-Fi Ganon, but I disagree with this statement.
The character the opponent chooses dictates whether or not "camping, reactionary" styles or heavy pressure are going to be worse for Ganon.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
my bad, I kinda forgot what the point was exactly that you were trying to make, as its been a while since we had that discussion.
also, at DMG(?) ike is better than PT
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I decided I would drop the discussion until I could put it all together in one post. It was starting to sound worse and worse, which wouldn't help my argument any obviously. Unfortunately, that probably won't be until mid December when UTSA has that lovely 1 month break.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
1. hylian won the match so i dont know what statement that vid was suppose to make.
2. hylian is bad regardless.
3. hylian is from a completely different region than clai
smashkng
Smash Lord
The main reason why Falcon sucks is his difficulty hitting the opponent because of his weird hitboxes. His aerials either have no low hitboxes or are slow. His ground moves are horrible, and so are also his specials (except up b). Falcon Kick is slow and has almost no priority, side b is slow and has no priority at all and Falcon Punch is extremely slow. His ftilt and dtilt are bad moves, his up tilt is slow, all of his smashes are slow and with extremely low priority. His jab is good but usually overrated. His moveset is just horrible. He is also very susceptible to chain grabs, more than Link (who is also susceptible).
Link's main reason he sucks is his terrible offstage game. And Falcon's recovery is gimpable as well by good edgeguarders. But Link has far better moveset with disjointed long sword and projectiles instead of horribly small hitboxes with mediocre range, that are slow and have no priority. Link at least has projectiles, it's too hard to approach with Falcon despite his movement due his major moveset issues.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
FK can clash with Ike's Fsmash.
It has priority.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
1.) By "plays Ganondorf" I was trying to say "play against Ganondorfs".
2.) That's good to know.
3.) I didn't know that.
@SmashKNG: Falcon kick is not slow, nor has bad priority.
smashkng
Smash Lord
It has low priority enough to be clashed with many moves. And it lacks shield stun. It is not fast at all. It sucks because it's easily punished.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
If a move clashes with many moves, it doesnt have bad priority.
EDIT
sorry but it has to be said,
this is the best evidence ive seen of SoPo being better than ganon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN1MCFuyK8&feature=sub
EDIT
sorry but it has to be said,
this is the best evidence ive seen of SoPo being better than ganon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN1MCFuyK8&feature=sub
Frown
poekmon
Question for Inui: Are you really as good as you say? I think you're overrating yourself.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Falcon Kick has great priority. And no projectile camping isn't as effective offline vs a good player, at least Falcon has extreme air mobility to hit and run. Sonic also has a bad move set, but thanks to his punishment game and good recovery, and mindgame potential, he's alot better. Same applies to C. Falcon, except for the good recovery. He's got mindgame potential, usually all the fast characters do.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
From 1:57 onwards, if anyone's wondering.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
People need help understanding priority
ground moves were on a 10% difference. If its 10% and greater, the stronger move will win.
THat is GROUND priority.
Aerial priority=hitbox/hurtbox interaction. Marth's Fair can be said to ahve high priority while Falcon's Fair has little priority
Special moves can clash with anything and go by the 10% rule.
Laser priroity we all know.
Obviously Sopo is better than Ganon since Sopo can actually do decently when facing Sonic.
Ganondorf just takes it in the ***.
Wait a second, why are we even arguing such a thing to begin with? Sopo shouldn't even be on the tierlist let alone measuring the pokemon individually. -_-
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
If NinjaLink went all SoPo, he would of lost no doubt. I've even seen Ganon's do 0%-death combos. Which usually end up with D-air spike or suicidal side b. SoPo can't really gimp like Ganon can. NinjaLink got lucky to get a chain grab from the far side of the stage. And it also doesn't help that Sonic is a character that is horrible at KOing.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
If he went ganon, he would have lost then too... whats your point?
SoPo doesnt really need to gimp because he has moves that are usable that kill from the stage.
the CG only did 30%. he did the other 90% and kill himself... not to mention, the only reason sopo died was because of an unforced error on NLs part.
the debate is really meaningless either way, but i just thought the match was funny
Gindler
Smash Champion
Careful, he'll leave a comment on you profile for saying that. Trust me
PS: this isn't an insult
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
TO bring some light to this topic.
Browny
Smash Hater
*except MK, he always recovers
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Kinzer
Mammy
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Quick we need more vids!
In communist Russia Ivysaur gimps you!
Clai
Smash Lord
In my opinion, regardless of the character, having a camping/reactionary playstyle just allows Ganon to space/bait/mindgame/attempt to control the stage easier. I think it's a lot less trouble to take advantage of Ganondorf's pathetic grab range and slow ground attacks and just take the momentum from the start and go with it. Of course the Ganon player is obviously going to try and prevent the opponent from doing that, but I think pressuring him involves less risk than trying to camp him.
Speaking of which, I've thought from the start that camping/reactionary playstyles will give way to pressuring offense, and I think the next tier list is going to reflect that. Dedede has already fallen two spots since the last tier list, and he's going to fall further before he rises again. Olimar just kind of sits at his spot without moving, and Snake is more prone to dropping on the next tier list than he ever has. Meanwhile, Pikachu, Fox and Sonic have all enjoyed noticeable rises in the current tier list, and people are talking about Diddy Kong overtaking Snake for the number 2 spot.
A pressure game just has more benefits than a camping game, in my opinion. A camping/reactionary game is just limiting the amount of options the player has to however he/she responds to the opponent's next move, and unless those reduced options are really freaking good (F-tilt to victory, Snake!), it just makes it easier for the opponent to read you and act accordingly. Being unpredictable with approaches makes it that much harder for the opponent to continue his/her camping game, not to mention always being pressured takes a huge toll mentally. I hope the metagame continues to shift in this direction, because gay playstyles are simply frustrating.
And to share my opinion on another matter, Link > Captain Falcon (and Jigglypuff as well).
Can't see how this is the case. Mind elaborating? More and more people get around to realize that him and MK are actually really close, you seem to claim the opposite.
All of those characters are good at camping in one way or another - mostly due to their mobility, which allows to play hit 'n run camping.
Nic64
Smash Lord
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Second half of that sentence contradicts the first, having someone do nothing but run from you is hugely annoying and affects you mentally far more than them actually attacking you, Barwl has no where to go but gayer.
Clai
Smash Lord
This is all hearsay, of course, but I've been hearing a lot of things about how Diddy Kong might end up surpassing Snake, so it wouldn't be a testament to Snake declining as much as it a testament to Diddy Kong replacing him. I personally disagree with that notion, but it's certainly not Snake and MK being head-and-shoulders over everyone else like it used to be.
I guess that's a matter of player preference about whether people want to apply pressure or just hit and run, but camping is certainly none of those character's dominant playstyle, especially Sonic's.All of those characters are good at camping in one way or another - mostly due to their mobility, which allows to play hit 'n run camping.
Yeah I caught that contradiction, but I feel that, on the mental level, being annoyed is nothing compared to being pressured. If someone spent the majority of the time running from me, I'd just taunt them and try to make them feel like an idiot. It might get me punished, but this is Brawl, and punishment doesn't really mean anything (unless if you're fighting Ganondorf, but he can't run away from anything anyhow)
The most successful Snake and Diddy playstyles are extremely campy and far from being weak.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Ally's existence keeps Snake in the "Too good" status.
I'm confused on where you're comin' from Clai. I main Flaco, and my winning rate increases when I play to win (camping: lazors, chaingrab, fsmash) than play for fun (offensive: bairs, dairs, tilts,jab, lazor to usmash)
I know Falco has less options when using defensive game, but his defense is just that good of a wall. You can IAP away when the opponent gets close. Even if it's predicted, you're opponent most likely shields or spotdodges, which takes up time and you still get away.
So when you said defensive playstyles will give away to offensive pressure, I'm going to assume that a character like Falco (who has less options) would be demolished. But how can that be when you can simply escape from the opponent who is applying pressure?
I'm confused on where you're comin' from Clai. I main Flaco, and my winning rate increases when I play to win (camping: lazors, chaingrab, fsmash) than play for fun (offensive: bairs, dairs, tilts,jab, lazor to usmash)
I know Falco has less options when using defensive game, but his defense is just that good of a wall. You can IAP away when the opponent gets close. Even if it's predicted, you're opponent most likely shields or spotdodges, which takes up time and you still get away.
So when you said defensive playstyles will give away to offensive pressure, I'm going to assume that a character like Falco (who has less options) would be demolished. But how can that be when you can simply escape from the opponent who is applying pressure?
This shouldn't need to be explained much, considering it is Brawl, but the game is easily defensively orientated. The game isn't even always about "My defense is too good", but rather "Defense is easier, works better, is more effective/safer than Offense, Why take the risk if I don't have to?"
Snake being "close" with MK is debatable by either side, matchup and tier spot wise. It's hard to imagine sometimes how a character with bad matchups/bad character + stage combination issues is supposed to rival MK, but at the same time it's clear that Snake easily has the best shot at going even with MK. So I won't go in depth about whether Snake is REALLY that close to MK or not, but I will note that either side is quite sound depending on your own perspective.
Someone said Link>Jigglypuff. I heartily disagree. I think Jigglypuff, just based on the fact that she actually has reasonable matchups with some of the higher tiered characters AND her flexibility stagewise, that she merits a higher spot on the list that Link.
Snake being "close" with MK is debatable by either side, matchup and tier spot wise. It's hard to imagine sometimes how a character with bad matchups/bad character + stage combination issues is supposed to rival MK, but at the same time it's clear that Snake easily has the best shot at going even with MK. So I won't go in depth about whether Snake is REALLY that close to MK or not, but I will note that either side is quite sound depending on your own perspective.
Someone said Link>Jigglypuff. I heartily disagree. I think Jigglypuff, just based on the fact that she actually has reasonable matchups with some of the higher tiered characters AND her flexibility stagewise, that she merits a higher spot on the list that Link.
Tornadith
Smash Journeyman
People need to accept that defensive strategies are a part of SSBB, and that's the game. Stating it as "gay" and "stupid" doesn't get anything done and in tournaments, defensive strategies have been shown to work.
Nanaki
Smash Lord
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