The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Yuna]

Plus this^ equals lolwut?

Since when does declaring superiority over someone in a certain field equal an ad hominem?

 

[Lord Exor]

Hypocrisy is fun though.

Since when does declaring superiority over someone in a certain field equal an ad hominem?

Since it is a pure attack on someone else's knowledge.

 

[brinboy789]

Only press b once, and you can do it repeatedly with relatively little lag without leaving the ground. The less b tapping, the closer to the ground you are. Just weave in and out like Tenki said and you don't need to worry all that much about lag.

if you press b once the tornado will last for a very short amount of time, have crap priority, and gives the opponent time to think about how to counter it

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Because I didn't feel like it. Neo says a lot of things. He also said only 4 people are good with Marth, for one thing. So by "good", he probably means "top level".

is he wrong?

Name a top level smasher who thinks he should be banned and has motivated it?

dojo. and i know you know who dojo is, who he mains, and what he's done. now, you?

I would like to point out that most of your supporters are also new and have relatively few posts. Why? Because the smart people stay out of threads like these. I just go here to clean out the stupidity and try to inject a little intelligence into it.

most of your arguments are invalid for one reason or another, and you blatantly disregard any arguments thats make you look bad. let us know when you plan on "cleaning out" instead of "dumping," ok? thanks.

Wow, the ad hominems just keep spewing out of you, don't they? The desperate measures of a desperate man. Can't refute what someone says? Insult them.

it wasn't an ad hominem, i was simply conjecturing. you have a... "very displeasing" personality, which leads me to believe you have many things you're angry about. but by no means am i making any accusations or attacks. like i said, conjecturing. in fact, i think i see an ad hominem attack in your very response... how odd.

 

[Overswarm]

Name a top level smasher who thinks he should be banned and has motivated it?

Me, jerkface. >:[

 

[Tenki]

if you press b once the tornado will last for a very short amount of time, have crap priority, and gives the opponent time to think about how to counter it

Eh, I was thinking more like enough tapping to go to about MK's short hop height while approaching, then weaving back out.

 

[Yuna]

is he wrong?

Yes. Especially since he last saw me two+ years ago.

dojo. and i know you know who dojo is, who he mains, and what he's done. now, you?

Even if he's a bit weird sometimes, Mew2King. Hey, you told me to name one Top Level player. Oh, and apparently Overswarm. That's two. It's your move.

most of your arguments are invalid for one reason or another, and you blatantly disregard any arguments thats make you look bad.

No they aren't and no I don't. You saying so does not make it so. How about you try engaging me in actual debate for one and try to refute my points instead of just making blanket statements, random accusations and "conjecture".

it wasn't an ad hominem, i was simply conjecturing. you have a... "very displeasing" personality, which leads me to believe you have many things you're angry about. but by no means am i making any accusations or attacks. like i said, conjecturing.

Yes, keep telling yourself that.

Me, *beep*. >:[

Now, now, let's not get ourselves infractions over people who do not deserve it.

 

[ColinJF]

Argument ad hominem isn't just insulting the person in an irrelevant way, it's construction of an argument of the following form:

P claims X.
Something is wrong with P.
Therefore X is false.

Just saying "Something is wrong with P." is not ad hominem.


Plenty of top level players don't support this scrub movement by the way. M2K seems to think Meta Knight should not be banned for example.

 

[Cook]

Since when does declaring superiority over someone in a certain field equal an ad hominem?

Since all he did was respond to your claim that you know more about Smash than he could possibly know by claiming that he knows more.

Oh, and it's not that it was an ad hominem, just that he was only doing what you were doing. Lern 2 read mindz bettr.

 

[brinboy789]

Eh, I was thinking more like enough tapping to go to about MK's short hop height while approaching, then weaving back out.

lol like, shtornado keep on pressing b and weave in and out of opponent to cause massive amounts of pain? maybe but if you keep on doing it it will become predictable. i rarely use the tornado anyways

 

[Overswarm]

and overswarm, apparently

I want MK banned and have dropped my main for Metaknight. I invented ROB and won over 10 tournaments in a row with him, and have dropped him for MK.

Also, Hobo 11.


By the by, saying "MK shouldn't be banned because this guy maining MK and making a lot of money off of it doesn't wnat him banned" is probably the worst road you can take.

 

[Yuna]

Since all he did was respond to your claim that you know more about Smash than he could possibly know by claiming that he knows more.

Oh, and it's not that it was an ad hominem, just that he was only doing what you were doing. Lern 2 read mindz bettr.

Because, for one thing, he assumes that "not being good at the game" = "not knowing much/anything about the game". I assumed he lacked logic from this.

For example, most sports coaches cannot do what their proteges do or at least as well as them but they know the theory. You can know a lot of things about Smash without actually being good at playing the same since a lot of it is theory.

 

[brinboy789]

I want MK banned and have dropped my main for Metaknight. I invented ROB and won over 10 tournaments in a row with him, and have dropped him for MK.

Also, Hobo 11.


By the by, saying "MK shouldn't be banned because this guy maining MK and making a lot of money off of it doesn't wnat him banned" is probably the worst road you can take.

so, WHY do you want him banned
reasons plz

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I want MK banned and have dropped my main for Metaknight. I invented ROB and won over 10 tournaments in a row with him, and have dropped him for MK.

Also, Hobo 11.


By the by, saying "MK shouldn't be banned because this guy maining MK and making a lot of money off of it doesn't wnat him banned" is probably the worst road you can take.

Did you pick him up to prove he is ban worthy or was it to win with Meta Knight?

 

[Yuna]

I want MK banned and have dropped my main for Metaknight. I invented ROB and won over 10 tournaments in a row with him, and have dropped him for MK.

Hmmm... I somehow misread the name in your quote for the other guy's. I apologize. And didn't you drop R.O.B. for Snake? Or did you do it originally and then go for Meta? Or am I just remembering it wrong?

By the by, saying "MK shouldn't be banned because this guy maining MK and making a lot of money off of it doesn't wnat him banned" is probably the worst road you can take.

The stipulation was one top level player, any top level player. There were no ground rules laid down.

 

[Master Raven]

Didn't M2K say somewhere that he wouldn't care much if MK was banned, and that he'd just switch to another character to get really good with? Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Yes. Especially since he last saw me two+ years ago.

oh, so you have had some competitive success then? like how? i, personally, have won a full one hundred dollars off of this game, and it wasn't even a scrubby tournament where half the matches were on hyrule with items on and four players in a match :D

Even if he's a bit weird sometimes, Mew2King. Hey, you told me to name one Top Level player. Oh, and apparently Overswarm. That's two. It's your move.

i'm pretty sure overswarm agrees that mk should be banned. regardless, m2k is widely known for understating his main. try again.

EDIT: yep, overswarm agrees with the rest of us. looks like you don't understand plain english, yuna. how sad.

No they aren't and no I don't. You saying so does not make it so. How about you try engaging me in actual debate for one and try to refute my points instead of just making blanket statements, random accusations and "conjecture".

they are. you do. you denying it does not make it so. you regularly ignore things that make you look bad. you did so within the past couple pages. see if you can find it!

funny, for someone who seems so against blanket statements, you like to assume a lot of people don't understand "plain english," among other things.

 

[Sudsy86_]

MK weaknesses are that he is light, has no projectile, vulnerable after using all of his b moves, weak attacks in general, slow aerial movement

What does this matter? If you TRY to attack a smart MK user, 70 % has been accumulated on you before you blink twice. It is hard to kill a smart MK who doesn't take advantage of his bs range and attack quickness, since you're getting hit left and right.

Weak attacks? As in knockback? If so, who cares? When damage is being racked up very fast, you can kill very quickly. Besides, that makes it easier to combo people.

Great.

Slow aerial movement? How often is MK HAVING to dodge? Most MK's can play defense by using any aerial attacks, tornado, and sometimes over-B.

MK's weakness are almost irrelevant considering they will rarely come into play because of his impeccable offensive gifts.

How is he not broken, again?

Snake is at least a big target, not fast, and can be attacked easily when using UP-B recovery.

MK is harder to hit, lightning fast on the ground, has lightning fast attacks, can break through shields easily, can wear down shields faster than most with many attacks, can recover from anywhere when having at least most jumps, has attacks that are quick enough to render priority useless in most cases, and let's not forget up-B can kill medium characters at 90 percent.

Broken bull****.

 

[Mocha19]

 

[Cook]

Because, for one thing, he assumes that "not being good at the game" = "not knowing much/anything about the game". I assumed he lacked logic from this.

For example, most sports coaches cannot do what their proteges do or at least as well as them but they know the theory. You can know a lot of things about Smash without actually being good at playing the same since a lot of it is theory.

So how does that make his post ad hominem? You said you knew more, he said he knew more. You were both doing the same thing.

P.S. Post #1915.

 

[Yuna]

oh, so you have had some competitive success then? like how? i, personally, have won a full one hundred dollars off of this game, and it wasn't even a scrubby tournament where half the matches were on hyrule with items on and four players in a match :D

Are we comparing game winnings only? 75 dollars + I don't know, over 200 Euros I'd guess throughout my "career" through money matches (against good people and moderately good people) and top finishers. No big finishers at any major tournament attended by a lot of good people, I never claimed to be a top player. Not in singles, anyway. I usually do very well in teams regardless of teammate and that's where I've had the most success lately.

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a urination contest. When did I ever say I was better at Smash than you, anyway? What difference does it make how much we've made off of Smash or whatever or how much success we've had?

i'm pretty sure overswarm agrees that mk should be banned. regardless, m2k is widely known for understating his main. try again.

You said name one person. You never stipulated anything.

Obviously, the SBR at large agrees with me that banning MK right now is premature, be it due to that it's just too early or that he just hasn't reached "that point" yet or both, judging my SamuraiPanda's words.

Banning MK has not yet become an actual possibility (as of Thursday, anyway).

they are. you do. you denying it does not make it so. you regularly ignore things that make you look bad. you did so within the past couple pages. see if you can find it!

Then quote me and refute me instead of making blanket statements. I do not ignore things that make look bad. I don't see everything posted in threads that go a mile a minute. Sometimes, I skim posts, sometimes I just plain don't see it because it moves so fast inbetween my posting.

If there's something you want me to reply to, link me to it.

funny, for someone who seems so against blanket statements, you like to assume a lot of people don't understand "plain english," among other things.

It's easy to assume that when they cannot comprehend plain English. I write in plain English, yet they often somehow manage to misinterpret what I say, even when I say it again.

So how does that make his post ad hominem? You said you knew more, he said he knew more. You were both doing the same thing.

P.S. Post #1915.

Because he, at the same time, attacked my character and "presented conjecture" for various "problems" that might have lead to my current state? The part where he said I was a bad player was not the ad hominem.

 

[brinboy789]

What does this matter? If you TRY to attack a smart MK user, 70 % has been accumulated on you before you blink twice. It is hard to kill a smart MK who doesn't take advantage of his bs range and attack quickness, since you're getting hit left and right.when you take on a smart falcon player, you get falcon punched in the falce in the game and in real life. seriously, if you play a "smart player" and your nort "smart", then your pretty much screwed.

Weak attacks? As in knockback? If so, who cares? When damage is being racked up very fast, you can kill very quickly. Besides, that makes it easier to combo people.yes, in knockback. his only reliable moves for killing are: fsmash = LAGGY AS HELL. dsash= crazy fast, but not as strong. up+B = kinda risky to use. the way he kills mostly is gimping.

Great.

Slow aerial movement? How often is MK HAVING to dodge? Most MK's can play defense by using any aerial attacks, tornado, and sometimes over-B. i think you misunderstood. slow aerial movement as in he doesnt move fast in the air, now how fast is attacks are. oh and by the way, his forward b sucks.

MK's weakness are almost irrelevant considering they will rarely come into play because of his impeccable offensive gifts.well if your not a MK player, you should know them so you can take advantage of them.

How is he not broken, again?he IS broken. but not to the point where you can ban him.

Snake is at least a big target, not fast, and can be attacked easily when using UP-B recovery.
im not saying snake should be banned, but yes hes a big target. which means he dies with more % then MK. sure hes not fast. he has slow and fast moves. his slow moves SUCK. his fast moves are BROKEN. so...yea. his up+B isnt amazing, but its above average, especially when you incoporate his c4 into it.
MK is harder to hit,easier death lightning fast on the groundyup. check out sonic, has lightning fast attacksall weak, can break through shields easily...where the hell did you get that? breaks through shields easily?, can wear down shields faster than most with many attacks, like what? spamming tornado? you know opponents CAN shield dodge rightcan recover from anywhere when having at least most jumpsMK can be gimpied. its just hard, has attacks that are quick enough to render priority useless in most caseshis attacks have CRAP priority. well his aerial moves. his b moves vary. expecially his mach tornado., and let's not forget up-B can kill medium characters at 90 percent. ok what broken BS is this. kills medium characters @ 90 %???? maybe at the edge of final destination when both of you are off the edge and you kill him while suiciding for the sexy kill.

Broken bull****.see above in red

yes i agree that MK is broken, but not banworthy yet

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Are we comparing game winnings only? 75 dollars + I don't know, over 200 Euros I'd guess throughout my "career" through money matches (against good people and moderately good people) and top finishers. No big finishers at any major tournament attended by a lot of good people, I never claimed to be a top player. Not in singles, anyway. I usually do very well in teams regardless of teammate and that's where I've had the most success lately.

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a urination contest. When did I ever say I was better at Smash than you, anyway? What difference does it make how much we've made off of Smash or whatever or how much success we've had?

neo called you out on being a terrible smash player, you didn't argue it, i brought it back up to question your ability to comment on competitive smash, and, knowing you would question me, i preempted you with my response. neither of us has been that successful, but hey, i enjoyed my hundred dollars :D

You said name one person. You never stipulated anything.

actually i did. apparently you can't comprehend plain english. regardless, if your example is easily refuted for whatever reason, as is the case with m2k, then it's not valid. m2k is widely known for "saying a lot of things," and understating his main's abilities. many months ago i saw m2k make a post stating his belief that captain falcon would end up in high or top tier. i believe it was in the marth forums, ironically. take that for what it's worth.

Obviously, the SBR at large agrees with me that banning MK right now is premature, be it due to that it's just too early or that he just hasn't reached "that point" yet or both, judging my SamuraiPanda's words.

Banning MK has not yet become an actual possibility (as of Thursday, anyway).

coincidentally, i also believe that it is too early to ban mk.

Because he, at the same time, attacked my character and "presented conjecture" for various "problems" that might have lead to my current state? The part where he said I was a bad player was not the ad hominem.

i never attacked your character. not in a way that even a mod hasn't done, anyway.

 

[M.K]

Hey Yuna, I'm gonna admit here that I haven't throughly read every single post of yours, and the ones I HAVE read pertain to arguning against the ban of Meta-Knight....but....

How come you are so intent on keeping Meta-Knight in the competitive scene? I'm just wondering.

 

[brinboy789]

Hey Yuna, I'm gonna admit here that I haven't throughly read every single post of yours, and the ones I HAVE read pertain to arguning against the ban of Meta-Knight....but....

How come you are so intent on keeping Meta-Knight in the competitive scene? I'm just wondering.

its the same reason for all of us. because its not right to ban MK at this point. maybe later, if something major happens, but as for right now. its not right

 

[metaXzero]

Cheeks and eyes are wrong color. IMPOSTOR!

 

[MarKO X]

Pardon my ignorance, but is that how he really looks, or is that simply an artist's rendition?

 

[Mocha19]

its the same reason for all of us. because its not right to ban MK at this point. maybe later, if something major happens, but as for right now. its not right

I agree. I believe it's just too short. New Orleans doesn't believe so, though.

It's an artist's rendition. But still, that's what he would look like when he found out he was banned..

 

[Overswarm]

Yuna, I'm unsure how how much you have won is important, but I've won over $1200 since May and I'm on the low end of the spectrum.

/end money talk

 

[Yuna]

Hey Yuna, I'm gonna admit here that I haven't throughly read every single post of yours, and the ones I HAVE read pertain to arguning against the ban of Meta-Knight....but....

How come you are so intent on keeping Meta-Knight in the competitive scene? I'm just wondering.

I'm trying to get people to be more rational about it instead of just going "Ban him now!" without thought. Because we don't just randomly ban characters. This is why we need a good definition of what constitutes broken and requires banning. So that if another character reaches that level in the future, we'll know what to do.

Also, it is my position that Meta Knight is very, very good, just not "too good" (at this writing moment). What we know about him (at this writing moment) anyway. Additionally, it's too early in the game to have a ban on an entire character.

So I'm not intent on keeping him in, I'm trying to get people to actually sit down and motivate why he should be banned with a clear definition for future reference. I'm also trying to get people to analyze it more. A lot of people just say things like "Meta Knight has this and this and this!" without actually saying "... while most other characters..." or something like it.

actually i did. apparently you can't comprehend plain english.

You said someone who didn't rely solely on "Learn to play, Scrubs". And while M2K has said that, it's not the only thing he's said regarding he subject.

regardless, if your example is easily refuted for whatever reason, as is the case with m2k, then it's not valid.

Only you didn't specify "except someone widely regarded as heavily biased" or "except someone who says a lot of things that aren't true".

m2k is widely known for "saying a lot of things," and understating his main's abilities. many months ago i saw m2k make a post stating his belief that captain falcon would end up in high or top tier. i believe it was in the marth forums, ironically. take that for what it's worth.

This has nothing to do with the stipulations you put forth.

coincidentally, i also believe that it is too early to ban mk.

So basically, we're on the same side and we're both opposing Overswarm?

i never attacked your character. not in a way that even a mod hasn't done, anyway.

Name said mod.

 

[AlexX]

Pardon my ignorance, but is that how he really looks, or is that simply an artist's rendition?

His mask comes off after you beat him in a couple of the Kirby games, so yeah, he's basically just a blue Kirby behind his mask.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I'm unsure how how much you have won is important, but I've won over $1200 since May and I'm on the low end of the spectrum.

/end money talk

It was in response to VulgarHandGestures's:
"Oh, so you have had some competitive success then? like how? i, personally, have won a full one hundred dollars off of this game..."

So I threw in some "war stories" of my own + "What difference does it make how much we've made off of Smash or whatever or how much success we've had?"

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm trying to get people to be more rational about it instead of just going "Ban him now!" without thought. Because we don't just randomly ban characters. This is why we need a good definition of what constitutes broken and requires banning. So that if another character reaches that level in the future, we'll know what to do.

Also, it is my position that Meta Knight is very, very good, just not "too good" (at this writing moment). What we know about him (at this writing moment) anyway. Additionally, it's too early in the game to have a ban on an entire character.

This was funny when I read it. It's as if you're implying that we could ban 1/2, 1/3, or any fraction of a character.

I hereby ban MK's sword.
GGs.

 

[Overswarm]

Did you pick him up to prove he is ban worthy or was it to win with Meta Knight?

Both.



Okay, hypothetical situation:


DOUBLE BLIND


who do you pick?

MK is the 100% best choice at all time, assuming all your characters have equal experience.

Why?

He has no bad matchups, and he has no bad stages.


This sounds familiar... like Fox, from Melee! Unfortunately for Fox, he took it as much as he dished it out. Multiple characters rocked Fox as much as Fox rocked them.

Even more importantly, there were other characters like Fox. Marth, Falco, Sheik, and to a lesser extent Captain Falcon all could do very well against everyone in the game. Yes, the game came to a point where you had to main a "top tier" character to consistently do well. A few exceptions, but nothing crazy.

That was acceptable. Most fighting games have a few "top tiers" that are played consistently, it is natural for this to be so. Melee jsut had a large number of them. Brawl has even MORE.

Snake, D3, ROB, G&W, Falco, Marth, Wario... they can all hang at the top level. But not with MK around. With MK around, there's no reason to play any of those characters.

If you remove MK, those characters all become viable. Even more importantly, they all have a variety of counters! That means most people will be playing two characters! That's great for the community!


In short:

MK is broken. MK is always the best choice save for a few rare occasions where someone else ***** a certain character more than Metaknight does.. but that doesn't mean MK does poorly against that character. MK doesn't NEED anyone else.

Removing MK = awesome for Brawl.

 

[Yuna]

This was funny when I read it. It's as if you're implying that we could ban 1/2, 1/3, or any fraction of a character.

I hereby ban MK's sword.
GGs.

Well, that's what happens when it's 4:00 and you barely slept the day before.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Only while he's the best choice, he's beatable. There are many characters who stand a reasonable chance of beating him.

Being the best choice at all times doesn't necessarily mean you have to be banned, especially not if you still a reasonable chance of being beaten by other characters. It has not devolved into "Play MK or lose", it's more like "MK has a much easier time winning that most characters".

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

You said someone who didn't rely solely on "Learn to play, Scrubs". And while M2K has said that, it's not the only thing he's said regarding he subject.

Only you didn't specify "except someone widely regarded as heavily biased" or "except someone who says a lot of things that aren't true".

This has nothing to do with the stipulations you put forth.

so you're going to willingly and knowingly put out a faulty answer?

So basically, we're on the same side and we're both opposing Overswarm?

not necessarily. i believe mk is ban material, but i think we should give the metagame more time. i feel very uneasy about the whole thing, but as it stands, he falls within my definitions of what should be banned.

Name said mod.

doesn't matter. i never even called you a name or anything, i just said you have a "displeasing personality." that said, you've attacked sarah palin multiple times in this thread. while she's not here and i'm DEFINITELY not a supporter of her, that pretty handily relinquishes you of your right to complain about flaming. imo, anyway.

 

[Espy Rose]

Well, that's what happens when it's 4:00 and you barely slept the day before.

I can imagine Meta Knight being placed on a cutting board...mmhmm....

@Overswarm: I would assume (and am probably wrong) that alot of Smashers play Meta Knight with the same intentions as you do.

If so, why not just take action now rather than wait? Especially if many people are flocking to him for the reason that:

1. Ease of Play/Profit much faster than other characters overall.
2. To show that he is ban worthy.

It's just funky.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

so you're going to willingly and knowingly put out a faulty answer?



not necessarily. i believe mk is ban material, but i think we should give the metagame more time. i feel very uneasy about the whole thing, but as it stands, he falls within my definitions of what should be banned.



doesn't matter. i never even called you a name or anything, i just said you have a "displeasing personality." that said, you've attacked sarah palin multiple times in this thread. while she's not here and i'm DEFINITELY not a supporter of her, that pretty handily relinquishes you of your right to complain about flaming. imo, anyway.

Wait, Yuna brought Sarah Palin into this thread?

 

[AlexX]

If so, why not just take action now rather than wait?

Isn't this the question Yuna has been answering all this time?