The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Espy Rose]

The game is only half a year old. It's way too young to ban anything but blatantly gamebreaking and ******** things, like items and New Pork City. The side arguing for a ban should at least wait a few more months and see if other regions besides Atlantic North finally start getting good Snakes and other top tiers that can beat the Meta Knights. If Meta Knight still never loses outside of Atlantic North, the be my guest and ban him. I won't ever ban him at my events.

MK is gamebreaking and ********. [/opinion]

Meta Knight is not the reason why everyone is acting like brats.

He may not be THE reason, but he's an addition to the problem.

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Kid's on a ****ing winning steak right now.
And no, that's not a typo.

 

[PhantomX]

I may not understand everything, but I do have much better understanding by comparison

If you knew more about how much bias and repetition OS has you wouldn't think that. It's like negative campaign ads where all you see is bad things about a president without seeing the good things, it is eventually going to make people (at least stupid people who don't do research on the whole subject) unfairly biased.

I use DDD occasionally in friendlies, but he's so much more boring. It's too much grab, bair, and fair. Sure I use every move, but it's just not as fun to me. To me MK is fun, since he can attack you a lot. DDD is less fun by comparison. That is 1 big reason.

I actually DON'T think he should be banned, even when I mained DDD. Even if I was never allowed to use MK but had to fight MKs, I wouldn't mind just using Snake or DDD against them, and have done well much in the past. I even beat chililns MK 2-0 in tourney with snake at CH4, despite that being the 2nd tourney match I ever used snake in before, and putting like 3 hours into the character. Snake does well vs MK. I think banning him is stupid, he is a fun character to play by comparison to his competition. Falco and DDD are too heavily reliant on CGs, camping, and bairs/dairs. To me it gets really boring. Motar slides with snake aren't that good on people anymore, and snake's game besides that is just camping. That gets boring. Attacking disadvantages me too much for me to want to often ever do it. Pit would be fun except that attack power deterioration HIGHLY encorages arrow camping, which is extremely boring to do, at least to me. Rob is too camping reliant. Olimar is too camping reliant. Not much is left but Diddy, but since I'm not good with projectile/glide tossing, I can't use him properly/well. You can think MK = no fun, but I have more fun fighting MK than I do vs a Falco or any projectile-camping-character or someone that just tries to be gay to you the whole time.

ledge camping is unfun. Plank won 2 tourney sets over eggm because of ledge camping, sheik vs falco. King and Forward also think ledge camping with jiggs is broken. GW can do it fine in brawl too. It is just unfun. Fighting people is fun, and for the exception of Tornado (which you just have to block), fighting MK is fun. Disagree if you want, but MK is much more fun to fight than Falco/projectilecampers to me, as well as to use.

Wario is as aggro as Metaknight without the ***gotry of a thousand moves per second or nigh unpunishable moves. Hell, even Game & Watch can be played aggro and do very well.

 

[Master Raven]

Wario is **** fun lol

His bite is so broken

 

[PhantomX]

**** straight, Raven Funnest character in the game once you get good with him ^_^

 

[Ulevo]

Wario is **** fun lol

His bite is so broken

It stops Shuttle Loop recoveries.

 

[Atomsk_92]

To bad every character has some broke grab release **** on him XD

 

[Inui]

in the 8 years that we have had melee we are still argueing because we cant figure out who the best character in that game is...
we realised that MK was the best character in brawl after 4 MONTHS. that alone speaks to the speed at which we as a community are maturing this game. i believe that it was also stated earlier in this thread that essentially every broken, or borderline broken mechanic in every fighting game (including akuma, and VCs in SC3) was either banned, or decided not to be banned LESS THAN A YEAR AFTER ITS RELEASE.

also, why do you continue to make these rediculous claims that EC is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to beating MK, when its been proven directly to you that not only does MK win OVER HALF of the tourneys in our region, but he wins more tourneys here than every other region of smash, except for one.

No, we haven't realized anything. In the early days of Melee, everyone considered Sheik the best character, and now only M2K is arguing for that. It shifted from Sheik, to Falco, to Fox, to Marth, etc. I used to think the best character was Ganondorf when I was a scrub, and then I thought it was Falco for a really long time before I starting going to real tournaments. Then I thought it was Sheik until I started getting wrecked by Falcos, then I thought it was Falco again for a long time. Opinions shift based on experiences and new discoveries.

Saying we've definitely decided it's Meta Knight is silly. I've seen extremely good arguments from teh_spamerer saying Snake is the best character. Atomsk has presented great arguments that Olimar is the best character. Nothing is set in stone when the game is so young. Street Fighter II has been out for a very long time and that tier list is still debated. The fact that Meta Knight being the best is still debatable is evidence he shouldn't be banned.

Atlantic North has Meta Knight winning because Mew2King and teh_spamerer live here. They are the only Meta Knights taking 1st at anything, besides Forte winning very rarely in MD/VA. Mew2King and teh_spamerer would both take 1st using Snake, Dedede, Diddy, etc. but use Meta Knight instead because they enjoy using Meta Knight the most. In fact, teh_spamerer used Meta Knight before the game even came out, back when people thought he was only high tier.

I guarantee you that if Mew2King and teh_spamerer weren't here, Meta Knight would almost never take 1st. The other good Meta Knights, like me, Omni, Plank, and Shadow, always end up losing to someone else and not taking first. I often lose to Atomsk. Shadow loses to good Snakes, NinjaLink, and Bum.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

MK won't be banned.

Brawl's community has had to face many hurdles, with many players inexperienced and too expecting of a balanced game, but the metagame did evolve at least. While powerful, the metagame is no longer centralized around chain grabs and infinites, because people learned to make grabbing harder and improved their spacing games. Same with Snake and how people actually managed to put Donkey Kong in a decent tier slot and improved their spacing games.

This is just another hurdle that the community has to climb over, except that even veterans are a huge part of it this time. MK seems to have no equal but himself with every single aspect about him being above average. Despite that, I am sure that MK will not be universally banned, because he simply doesn't make the game impossible, just never in the opponent's favor due to always having some answer to any character's traits (this includes Yoshi, whom most Yoshi mains are probably playing Mario Kart anyway).

I could be wrong, but despite liking the idea of MK being banned, reading posts on this forum in the past (especially that of Yuna) has really shown that it isn't going to happen.

 

[CR4SH]

MK isn't the best?.

You do realize that you're in the 99%+ minority? Saying MK isn't the best character is loony bin material.

 

[shanus]

No, we haven't realized anything. In the early days of Melee, everyone considered Sheik the best character, and now only M2K is arguing for that. It shifted from Sheik, to Falco, to Fox, to Marth, etc. I used to think the best character was Ganondorf when I was a scrub, and then I thought it was Falco for a really long time before I starting going to real tournaments. Then I thought it was Sheik until I started getting wrecked by Falcos, then I thought it was Falco again for a long time. Opinions shift based on experiences and new discoveries.

Saying we've definitely decided it's Meta Knight is silly. I've seen extremely good arguments from teh_spamerer saying Snake is the best character. Atomsk has presented great arguments that Olimar is the best character. Nothing is set in stone when the game is so young. Street Fighter II has been out for a very long time and that tier list is still debated. The fact that Meta Knight being the best is still debatable is evidence he shouldn't be banned.

Atlantic North has Meta Knight winning because Mew2King and teh_spamerer live here. They are the only Meta Knights taking 1st at anything, besides Forte winning very rarely in MD/VA. Mew2King and teh_spamerer would both take 1st using Snake, Dedede, Diddy, etc. but use Meta Knight instead because they enjoy using Meta Knight the most. In fact, teh_spamerer used Meta Knight before the game even came out, back when people thought he was only high tier.

I guarantee you that if Mew2King and teh_spamerer weren't here, Meta Knight would almost never take 1st. The other good Meta Knights, like me, Omni, Plank, and Shadow, always end up losing to someone else and not taking first. I often lose to Atomsk. Shadow loses to good Snakes, NinjaLink, and Bum.

Quoting this again for emphasis, for all those people out there who are so quick to ban a character.

 

[Bwett]

Just as a last note on Yoshi, CG to Fair is not guaranteed. DI away and down easily gets out of it. Not only that but several moves like shuttle will get you killed for even trying it. Furthermore, CG in itself is starting to prove ineffective. People in Dallas are starting to learn that if you mash the buttons fast on the second grab, you can do the insta-grab break and break the grab on the ground. I'm not sure how it works but it does. So far, two of my friends are doing it every time and making CG useless besides the minimal possibility that they don't shield an usmash after the first release.

Take that info how you wish, just wanted to clear up some things. Also, I love fighting MK's. I think it's an awesome challenge to get by as long as they aren't being lame with tornado spamming. However, that doesn't mean I haven't seen the consequences of what MK is doing atleast in the Dallas area. Because of it, I do believe he should be banned, of course this is just my opinion and holds very little if any weight lol.

.

 

[Inui]

You do realize that you're in the 99%+ minority? Saying MK isn't the best character is loony bin material.

Arguments for Snake or Olimar being the best character will become more popular soon enough. I'm sure people were considered crazy for thinking Sheik wasn't the best character, and now she's only 3rd on the latest tier list. Something similar happening to Meta Knight wouldn't surprise me at all because Olimar and Snake are too good LOL.

 

[Master Raven]

Olimar being top tier material is something I'm REAL skeptical of, but who knows. We'll see what happens.

 

[Espy Rose]

Just as a last note on Yoshi, CG to Fair is not guaranteed. DI away and down easily gets out of it. Not only that but several moves like shuttle will get you killed for even trying it. Furthermore, CG in itself is starting to prove ineffective. People in Dallas are starting to learn that if you mash the buttons fast on the second grab, you can do the insta-grab break and break the grab on the ground. I'm not sure how it works but it does. So far, two of my friends are doing it every time and making CG useless besides the minimal possibility that they don't shield an usmash after the first release.

Take that info how you wish, just wanted to clear up some things. Also, I love fighting MK's. I think it's an awesome challenge to get by as long as they aren't being lame with tornado spamming. However, that doesn't mean I haven't seen the consequences of what MK is doing atleast in the Dallas area. Because of it, I do believe he should be banned, of course this is just my opinion and holds very little if any weight lol.

1st portion: Ouch, that hurts Yoshi.

---

From the bolded part, I take it that you've played DMK? =P
As for your argument, don't worry too much about it. M2K's argument isn't any better. At weight-holding I mean.

 

[da K.I.D.]

No, we haven't realized anything. In the early days of Melee, everyone considered Sheik the best character, and now only M2K is arguing for that. It shifted from Sheik, to Falco, to Fox, to Marth, etc. I used to think the best character was Ganondorf when I was a scrub, and then I thought it was Falco for a really long time before I starting going to real tournaments. Then I thought it was Sheik until I started getting wrecked by Falcos, then I thought it was Falco again for a long time. Opinions shift based on experiences and new discoveries.

i didnt say we have figured out everything, i said weve figured out MUCH MORE than what people like you give us credit for...

Saying we've definitely decided it's Meta Knight is silly. I've seen extremely good arguments from teh_spamerer saying Snake is the best character. Atomsk has presented great arguments that Olimar is the best character. Nothing is set in stone when the game is so young. Street Fighter II has been out for a very long time and that tier list is still debated. The fact that Meta Knight being the best is still debatable is evidence he shouldn't be banned.

i believe this is a good basis to take speaking privleges away from you...
this character wins about A THIRD of all tournament held at all skill levels, and you say hes not the best character in the game?!?! WTF?!? dude, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore if you are that deluded

Atlantic North has Meta Knight winning because Mew2King and teh_spamerer live here. They are the only Meta Knights taking 1st at anything, besides Forte winning very rarely in MD/VA. Mew2King and teh_spamerer would both take 1st using Snake, Dedede, Diddy, etc. but use Meta Knight instead because they enjoy using Meta Knight the most. In fact, teh_spamerer used Meta Knight before the game even came out, back when people thought he was only high tier.

i believe that i need to make some thing clear to you...
you need to come to a complete understanding of your own region...
Atlantic North IS NOT just Jersey and MD/VA.
the region of the atlantic north consists of, MD/VA, New Jersey, New york city, Rochester, NY, Rhode Island, Conneticut, and Massachusetts. why dont you go look at all of the tournaments that happen in your entire region before you spoutin off BS about how you know everything about your region...

I guarantee you that if Mew2King and teh_spamerer weren't here, Meta Knight would almost never take 1st. The other good Meta Knights, like me, Omni, Plank, and Shadow, always end up losing to someone else and not taking first. I often lose to Atomsk. Shadow loses to good Snakes, NinjaLink, and Bum.

that still doesnt take away from the fact that the 2 best ppl in your area, the 4-5 best ppl in my area, and most of the top ppl in all of the areas in YOUR region play MK

 

[BentoBox]

"i believe this is a good basis to take speaking privleges away from you...
this character wins about A THIRD of all tournament held at all skill levels, and you say hes not the best character in the game?!?! WTF?!? dude, nothing you say can be taken seriously anymore if you are that deluded"

On his defense, they just made a thread about Marth dominating the Melee scene while Fox and Sheik were the better characters. Winning all tourneys does not make of him the best character, objectively speaking.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Arguments for Snake or Olimar being the best character will become more popular soon enough. I'm sure people were considered crazy for thinking Sheik wasn't the best character, and now she's only 3rd on the latest tier list. Something similar happening to Meta Knight wouldn't surprise me at all because Olimar and Snake are too good LOL.

olimar?
really...?

just cus you suck against oli, doesnt mean that he anywhere near the best character.

unless they find a way to take away the pikmin hurtboxes, make him able to carry 12 pikmin, give him a sonic spring type boost from his up b, AND make it kill at 30%, than oli is not going to be the best in the game

EDIT @Bento, why do ppl keep bringing up melee, please stop that.
and dont play that with me, you know just as well as i do that anybody that believes that there is a better character than MK in this game, has lost touch with reality

 

[Bwett]

From the bolded part, I take it that you've played DMK? =P

How would you ever have guessed rofl. <3 DMK but less b, *******!

 

[Espy Rose]

How would you ever have guessed rofl. <3 DMK but less b, *******!

Read my sig, haha. That's just my matches with DMK.
But yeah, less than three DMK.

 

[BentoBox]

olimar?
really...?

just cus you suck against oli, doesnt mean that he anywhere near the best character.

unless they find a way to take away the pikmin hurtboxes, make him able to carry 12 pikmin, give him a sonic spring type boost from his up b, AND make it kill at 30%, than oli is not going to be the best in the game

EDIT @Bento, why do ppl keep bringing up melee, please stop that.
and dont play that with me, you know just as well as i do that anybody that believes that there is a better character than MK in this game, has lost touch with reality

That wasn't the point.

You cannot call up someone on his BS and then proceed to argue with a logic just as flawed.

Fox 9.9, Sheik 9.9, Marth 9.7, the latter dominated.

You claimed that he had lost all his bearings because MK dominates and therefore is the best character. That's not how it works. M2K could dominate with Snake and what would happen then? The same domino effect, everybody acting like tools going on and maining that exact same character, and you get where I'm going with this.

 

[Lord Viper]

This thread is about to reach 500 pages of what is not going to happen. =/

Ha, I told you. ;p

Back On Topic: How many tourneys actually did this? Because most of the tourneys I know are too scared to ban him due to new commer's comming to tourneys that main Meta Knight.

 

[salaboB]

Fox 9.9, Sheik 9.9, Marth 9.7, the latter dominated.

You claimed that he had lost all his bearings because MK dominates and therefore is the best character. That's not how it works. M2K could dominate with Snake and what would happen then? The same domino effect, everybody acting like tools going on and maining that exact same character, and you get where I'm going with this.

Why do you think listing three characters vs. only having one to list is acceptable?

M2K dominating with Snake would not make everyone switch to Snake, MK is still easier and more effective for the same time spent. Plus he can't be cp'ed to nearly the same extent (One character may have 55:45 against him if M2K is right) the way people have been finding can be done to Snake.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if its possible for us to ban-wagon (see the pun, lol) on M2K like that, why hasnt it happened yet...

if M2K could go to a tourney and win just as easily with D3 or snake, than why hasnt he?
because going to a tourney to try that is risking money, which he wont do because he knows that MK is a asure thing...

and how do you have rankings where the best character isnt the one that wins the most, if you have a system that doesnt have marth at the top, desipite the fact that he wins the most, then your system is flawed...

 

[salaboB]

if M2K could go to a tourney and win just as easily with D3 or snake, than why hasnt he?
because going to a tourney to try that is risking money, which he wont do because he knows that MK is a asure thing...

He's also said, and I believe him, that it's because MK is the most fun.

And of course MK is the most fun. You do an attack. It comes out quickly, it goes away, you can almost immediately do another. You use a special. You end it...and use another! You jump and from there can drop on your opponent, glide over your opponent, attack from either position, shuttle loop at them and then glide away if you don't catch them in it, end that with an attack if they're trying to approach, ground yourself out to dodge their punishment and dashgrab them...etc. He's all about options, has so many more realistic ones than any other character, (From what I've heard) plays the most like a Melee character, and so of course is the most fun.

Which is not a reason to not ban him, but does make him look even more worrisome for balance to me (And for the hopes of finding a counter to him).

(I'd actually get rid of Snake too if that were my only reason for banning MK though, because with his mines, C4, and Smash attacks looking more like special moves he really doesn't fit well into Brawl either -- but that's neither here nor there.)

 

[Mew2King]

i don't even know where to start, but a lot of what i read is just false

you guys underrate olimar's potential A LOT

I have already won plenty of tourneys with DDD, he just gets boring by comparison. I was forced to use DDD in FL to win, hopefully I won't have to do that next time though.

 

[ThaRoy]

i don't even know where to start, but a lot of what i read is just false

you guys underrate olimar's potential A LOT

I have already won plenty of tourneys with DDD, he just gets boring by comparison. I was forced to use DDD in FL to win, hopefully I won't have to do that next time though.

Olimar is Brawl's Marth.

Edit-M2K, I find it hilarious how you have brought up COUNTLESS times how it'll be unfair if MK gets banned because you've spent so much time on him. Wow, so just because you don't want something banned because you spent your time on it we should all listen?

Wow M2K, keep telling us how you know SO much about Brawl because your arguments and points don't contradict what you say at all.

Ignorant hypocrite...

Idiot...

Scrub...

 

[HugS]

Did you ever stop to think that there might be someone on those boards that might know more about a certain match-up than your friends do? Or that, as a community as a whole, a character board has less of a chance to be wrong because they actually discuss and agree on match-ups as a whole. And that one person's opinions have a higher chance of being inaccurate than does the whole board. Also, i highly doubt your friends know everything about a certain match-up, let alone all of them. That is where the boards come into play..

Actually, even though Inui can be wrong 95% of the time, this part is probably where he lies in the 5% range of being right.

Character boards are the place to go for low level guidance on how to play your character. The better you get, the more inaccurate the character boards tend to become.
True, there may be someone on the boards that knows more about a certain character than Inui's friends do, but the logic that says "The more people involved, the more accurate it is" is flawed when it comes to something like this.

 

[Mortimer]

To me it gets really boring. Motar slides with snake aren't that good on people anymore, and snake's game besides that is just camping.

Can you expand on this? The problem I see is, if Snake's game is only camping, how do you beat Meta Knight? What happens if the Meta Knight camps as well?

You seem to be saying that nearly everybody but Meta Knight has to camp to do well in your other posts, but do they have any response to a Meta Knight that camps?

 

[Mew2King]

Olimar is Brawl's Marth.

Edit-M2K, I find it hilarious how you have brought up COUNTLESS times how it'll be unfair if MK gets banned because you've spent so much time on him. Wow, so just because you don't want something banned because you spent your time on it we should all listen?

Wow M2K, keep telling us how you know SO much about Brawl because your arguments and points don't contradict what you say at all.

Ignorant hypocrite...

Idiot...

Scrub...

countless times, like twice? people wanted me to give the reasons I don't want him banned, I'm sorry for one of those multiple reasons being because I put time into him??? Because that ISN'T fair, and it affects every MK main out there. I don't know that much about brawl, but I do know about the characters I use, and I have massive melee experience and brawl is like a downgraded melee. I also know people that know a lot about different characters, and are open to using any character and increasingly get more skilled with them, such as Atomsk. I have not practiced many characters though (mk ddd, very little snake, some marth right when the game came out)

the only way mk can camp snake without planking is to stay in the air and do dairs, and you can just throw grenades against that. Snake is never gonna get hit by those dairs unless he's dumb. Same with olimar, olimar can just use projectiles until MK gets near him, then use priority moves. Did you know if Snake does 2 hits of f tilt, the 2nd hit of f tilt completely outranges and beats a spaced MK fair?

 

[DanGR]

i don't even know where to start, but a lot of what i read is just false

you guys underrate olimar's potential A LOT

I have already won plenty of tourneys with DDD, he just gets boring by comparison. I was forced to use DDD in FL to win, hopefully I won't have to do that next time though.

I actually agree with you for once.

Which Oli did you play against?

 

[salaboB]

the only way mk can camp snake without planking is to stay in the air and do dairs, and you can just throw grenades against that. Snake is never gonna get hit by those dairs unless he's dumb. Same with olimar, olimar can just use projectiles until MK gets near him, then use priority moves. Did you know if Snake does 2 hits of f tilt, the 2nd hit of f tilt completely outranges and beats a spaced MK fair?

But if MK is camping, Snake has to approach. If Snake isn't camping, he's not playing his best, and MK gets the advantage. If Snake tries to camp, MK just backs off and waits until Snake tries to approach...

Why does only the side against MK get to camp to draw the opposition into engagement?

 

[Mew2King]

see that's where you're wrong. Snake never has to approach, he can just get near and use grenades. I know from experience that MK risks being grenaded all the time unless he gets near snake

man brawl is a horrible game, i can't imagine how such a fun, combo/skill oriented game such as melee turned into a campfest known as brawl.

 

[Salem]

see that's where you're wrong. Snake never has to approach, he can just get near and use grenades. I know from experience that MK risks being grenaded all the time unless he gets near snake

man brawl is a horrible game, i can't imagine how such a fun, combo/skill oriented game such as melee turned into a campfest known as brawl.

HEY! don't be hating on no brawl, we all know Brawl and Melee are equal... unless you count the yoshi/JP/Kirby, not like I care about either game or any of the characters, just throwing that out there k'ay? Cough...

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres a massive gross underestimation of sonic as well, and do you know how much ppl care about that? ill give you a hint, its between none and zero. dont talk about untapped potential, focus on whats happening now. If oli is that good, get me some results from some tourneys and put him in top tier...

 

[Espy Rose]

see that's where you're wrong. Snake never has to approach, he can just get near and use grenades. I know from experience that MK risks being grenaded all the time unless he gets near snake

man brawl is a horrible game, i can't imagine how such a fun, combo/skill oriented game such as melee turned into a campfest known as brawl.

Which is why you ledge-stall to avoid the nades.

If you're so bent about how Melee =/= Brawl, then go back to Melee.
It really isn't that hard. Just eject your Brawl disc, then put Melee's in. Done and done.

It's really dissapointing when the supposed "best" person at Brawl in the states is a guy who thinks it would be unfair to ban a character, and is for banning a legitamate tactic. All the while using the lack of "fun", which is subjective in of itself, to back up his statements.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm against this. True, I have never really played a "Great" meta knight, but I know that he's beatable.

 

[Sephiroth27]

Mew2King wins like every Brawl tournament he enters or at least gets an X amount of money, but he hates the game. What a cruel world.

 

[Salem]

Which is why you ledge-stall to avoid the nades.

If you're so bent about how Melee =/= Brawl, then go back to Melee.
It really isn't that hard. Just eject your Brawl disc, then put Melee's in. Done and done.

It's really dissapointing when the supposed "best" person at Brawl in the states is a guy who thinks it would be unfair to ban a character, and is for banning a legitamate tactic. All the while using the lack of "fun", which is subjective in of itself, to back up his statements.

He can do that becuase he's Brawl's Ken, LOL.

[SeriousTag/]

 

[da K.I.D.]

Which is why you ledge-stall to avoid the nades.

If you're so bent about how Melee =/= Brawl, then go back to Melee.
It really isn't that hard. Just eject your Brawl disc, then put Melee's in. Done and done.

It's really dissapointing when the supposed "best" person at Brawl in the states is a guy who thinks it would be unfair to ban a character, and is for banning a legitamate tactic. All the while using the lack of "fun", which is subjective in of itself, to back up his statements.

looks like the puff is trying to get in on the winning steak.

good shiz dude.

I'm against this. True, I have never really played a "Great" meta knight, but I know that he's beatable.

normally i would say something mildly insulting, but im just going to say that this post contradicts itself

 

[OrlanduEX]

Is this thread seriously still here? 7000+ posts? Really? Like, what's seriously left to be said? The main idea of this thread could be summed up in like 3 pages I bet. We've been saying the same thing over and over for weeks.