The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[DRaGZ]

He explained it in detail that was almost entirely personal, i.e. his reasons are almost entirely personal.

Don't think I didn't read it carefully. I was hoping for a good argument, but there was none to be found.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Jason explained everything in a lot of detail. That's not his primary argument at all. Don't insult him like that. It's stupid.



-S Tier-
Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Dedede
Game and Watch
Diddy Kong

That top tier was agreed on by both Mew2King and I. Atomsk and I both think Olimar is possibly in that tier now, so it could need an updating. Those are the best characters in the game, so any of them can win a tournament.

Marth, DK, and Lucario would easily fall into A tier, the second highest tier. This is the tier of characters like Jam in Guilty Gear that have won big tournaments. Those characters winning isn't a big surprise considering they are also good.

Wario is strange, though. Not enough people are abusing the grab release nonsense against him and/or they lack match-up experience. He really shouldn't be winning that much, but oh well. Maybe he's A tier and I'm wrong.

Garbage characters aren't winning. That point hasn't been proven wrong. Garbage characters aren't going to win even with MK gone.
Sorry DK Marth and lucario are still winning and those are garbage characters you already said that only top isn't garbage. I agreed lets move on any tournament with lucario DK or a Marth should be thrown out because they are garbage.


OH NO, KEN SWITCHED TO FOX TO BEAT WIFE'S PEACH BECAUSE WIFE IS EXTREMELY GOOD AGAINST MARTH. FOX IS CLEARLY BANNABLE MATERIAL NOW.

Awesome argument there, buddy.
I seriously can't believe this. Ok that switching to MK because you think your going to loose comment was because you said who cares if ____ used MK in a stage that he was counter picked. I never said this qualified as a ban I said it qualified as MK deserving credit in that tournament win. Did sakurai program your brain or something?



MK =/= only top tier.

Only a fool would seriously go by the SBR's abysmal tier list.
The SBR includes M2K and much smart people in it but I supposed I should go by a 2 man made tier list instead. Its just so much smarter to have 1 guy who only cares about winning easily and 1 guy who worships him with undieing faith make it on there own.

I never said MK was the only top tier thats why my list didn't include snake falco rob all those other guys.


You're dumb. Nobody has any idea how smart Jason is at Smash because they don't get to play him a lot. He'd win with Dedede and Snake just as easily and I'd bet any sum of money on that. It's a shame you don't live close enough to me for me to make some easy money on a bet.

Once again, you're wrong.

Mew2King entered Brawl with a massive advantage in skill that carried over from Melee. He has no reason to work hard in Brawl to stay at the top because he is already so far ahead of the community. If I was at his level, I doubt I'd play as much. He's comfortably at the top and Brawl doesn't have technical things to practice.

I actually got to play Jason at hobo 11. This didn't make him seem smart to me not even at the moment that he was owning me. I found out that he was great at this game but not that he was smart.

I agree that brawl doesn't have technical things to pratice but MK is probably in the 5 lowest technical characters while snake is in the highest 5 so I doubt the pratice one a week would be as efficient.

An attack like this would be like me attacking your abysmal grammar and typing.

It would except that its not an attack against me I'll gladdy admit to having bad grammar and typing. Are you going to agree to having debate skills worse than a child? If so I won't bring it up again.

Nobody should care about what happens on a crappy banned stage. Every time someone picked Poke Floats against me in Melee, I went Fox. Nobody cried about everyone having a pocket-Fox for nonsense stages. Ken busted out Fox to beat Wife before because Wife ***** Marth too hard. By your logic, Fox should be banned.

By his logic Fox deserved credit in winning that tournament. Stop being stupid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

everything you do and say, all of your argument, all of your ideas, all of your reasonings...

they are all completely subjective.

nothing counts unless its on the stages you approve of
the characters you approve of,
the players you approve of,
the regions you approve of,
even the games you approve of...

just because you dont like something doesnt make it invalid,
get that through youre head,
you dont have to care about norfair, you dont have to like norfair, but you DO need to realise that just because you say it, or even just because you and M2K said it does not make it fact.

and the facts are that:
norfair is not a banned stage,
other people are good at smash besides jersey and MD/VA,
olimar is not the best character,
and most importantly,
MK is THE best character in this game by a wide enough margin that him being allowed to be played normally against all the other characters in a competitive environment, is counter productive to the game of brawl.

and sure, im not nationally known but if you wanna be that way and only listen to guys that are...

listen to overswarm.
im going to bed,
i suggest you do the same
ill be back to verbally beat down on you some other time
and for the record jesse usually plays MK 2-4 times per tourney across both finals matches.
just know that MK is too strong and too good for tourneys and that,
Lack of matchup knowledge counters everyone

 

[Inui]

Sorry DK Marth and lucario are still winning and those are garbage characters you already said that only top isn't garbage. I agreed lets move on any tournament with lucario DK or a Marth should be thrown out because they are garbage.

You're honestly just being a prick here if you're going to pick at things like this. You should know exactly what I mean by this.

I seriously can't believe this. Ok that switching to MK because you think your going to loose comment was because you said who cares if ____ used MK in a stage that he was counter picked. I never said this qualified as a ban I said it qualified as MK deserving credit in that tournament win. Did sakurai program your brain or something?

Okay, let's break this down for you nice and simply so you can understand it.

-Jesiah wins every match with Snake.
-His opponent in grand finals picks a ******** stage that needs to be banned.
-Jesiah switches to MK for a single match.
-Jesiah wins and then finishes the set with Snake.

MK doesn't deserve any credit at all. Snake won.

By his logic Fox deserved credit in winning that tournament. Stop being stupid.

Okay? Certainly not the same amount of credit as Ken's Marth, which won every single other match besides one in the entire tournament.

The SBR includes M2K and much smart people in it but I supposed I should go by a 2 man made tier list instead. Its just so much smarter to have 1 guy who only cares about winning easily and 1 guy who worships him with undieing faith make it on there own.

I never said MK was the only top tier thats why my list didn't include snake falco rob all those other guys.

M2K strongly disagees with the SBR tier list, as does every top player around me, which includes Atomsk and teh_spamerer.

I actually got to play Jason at hobo 11. This didn't make him seem smart to me not even at the moment that he was owning me. I found out that he was great at this game but not that he was smart.

I agree that brawl doesn't have technical things to pratice but MK is probably in the 5 lowest technical characters while snake is in the highest 5 so I doubt the pratice one a week would be as efficient.

LMAO

Then you couldn't even fathom the level he's on if you didn't think he was really smart. I've played him countless times. It's like he reads your mind. It's that crazy. He picks the best options in every situation.

It would except that its not an attack against me I'll gladdy admit to having bad grammar and typing. Are you going to agree to having debate skills worse than a child? If so I won't bring it up again.

You've resorted to childish personal attacks and spouting off random nonsense.

I'm considered top 10 in the world at Fire Emblem debating in the English Fire Emblem community, which includes everywhere but Asia. I get accused randomly of not being that good by scrubs and stuff because I'm an elitist and only bust out real posts against other top debaters in debate tournaments.

Proof: http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/392617/1/

they are all completely subjective.

nothing counts unless its on the stages you approve of
the characters you approve of,
the players you approve of,
the regions you approve of,
even the games you approve of...

I can easily prove that the stages allowed on the SBR's list are EXTREMELY bad for competitive play. I think anyone that doesn't see why stages Norfair and Yoshi's Island (Melee) need to banned is a moron. No wonder you people cry about this game so much. You allow garbage stages like those to ruin it even more.

Characters I approve of? What does that even mean?

Players I approve of? You're right. I couldn't care less about what low-level players say and think because they don't understand anything at all. They don't understand high level play and apparently lose to random MKs because they suck.

I care the most about Atlantic North because I live here and a huge chunk of the best players live here. We also generally have a higher overall skill level at tournaments. Of course I'm going to care more about what happens here and what our players think. Other regions apparently can't take down MKs that are worse than ours, so that says something about how good other regions are against MK.

I don't know what you mean by "games I approve of."

just because you dont like something doesnt make it invalid,
get that through youre head,
you dont have to care about norfair, you dont have to like norfair, but you DO need to realise that just because you say it, or even just because you and M2K said it does not make it fact.

It's not that I don't like Norfair. I love Norfair. Meta Knight is indeed broken there. Finally, that word is legit. His ledge camping can't be stopped. There are 6 ledges to abuse and 3 are always right next to each other. Meta Knight can easily work around the random lava events because of his mobility. That's why that terrible stage should be banned.

If Mew2King, the best player in the world, says something, and then other top players like me, teh_spamerer, and Atomsk all agree...it's a safe bet that we are correct and you are wrong. You're not even close to being a top player. Your understanding of this game is vastly inferior to ours. It's a fact.

and the facts are that:
norfair is not a banned stage,
other people are good at smash besides jersey and MD/VA,
olimar is not the best character,
and most importantly,
MK is THE best character in this game by a wide enough margin that him being allowed to be played normally against all the other characters in a competitive environment, is counter productive to the game of brawl.

It certainly should be. The SBR is terribly wrong.

Then why can't you beat MK?

Olimar my not be the best character, but he's incredibly good and can beat Meta Knight.

MK is not the best character by a large amount. He is not in his own tier. There is no tier gap whatsoever between him and characters like Falco and Snake. What's truly counterproductive to the development of Brawl's metagame is crybabies like you that can't man up and beat MK. Whiners like you are what's bad for this community, not a perfectly beatable character.

and sure, im not nationally known but if you wanna be that way and only listen to guys that are...

listen to overswarm.
im going to bed,
i suggest you do the same
ill be back to verbally beat down on you some other time

just know that MK is too strong and too good for tourneys and that,
Lack of matchup knowledge counters everyone

Overswarm has degraded to nothing but a troll and hasn't presented a real argument for quite some time now. In fact, every time I see him post, he is either crying about losing to Meta Knight, slandering me with garbage, or insulting someone else.

MK is obviously not too strong for touraments if he's losing very often to actual good players like Azen, Atomsk, and Bum.

Lack of match-up knowledge indeed counters everyone. Learn how to fight Meta Knight so this conversation can end. Not playing a bottom tier character like Sonic will probably help you in beating MK. I'm being serious here. Play a top tier and you'll be able to compete with the best character just fine.

 

[zamz]

Fyi:

http://theviashino.com/ssbb/tournaments2.txt

Mew2King - 13 wins - 1 2nd - 0 3rd - 1 4th

 

[DRaGZ]

No one is saying Meta Knight can't be beaten by a good player, for the billionth time.

Akuma used by a newb, or even someone who is familiar with SSF2:T, can be beaten by pros and often are at Japanese tournaments, often to rousing applause.

But Akuma is just soft banned in Japan. Back when Akuma WAS everywhere in SSF2:T, everyone used him, but then pros started beating him with their other characters because they were really good and the top people stopped using him out of respect.

This works in Japan, because in Japan there is a concept of honor and respect.

In America, there isn't, hence he is banned here, and this is something no sane-minded player can dispute the validity of.

I honestly don't see how MK, in terms of tournament domination, is different.

 

[da K.I.D.]

2 things that i need to make sure are said.
1. whether im good at the game or not doesnt really have too too much bearing on the amount of information that i can collect on it.
2. ive been playing lucario from the beginning, and i picked up fox and D3 specifically for this matchup, and im tempted to learn bowser and ZSS just for this one character. i legitamately gave up on trying to play sonic against MK about 3 months ago, so character choice has nothing to do with it.
i used to like lucario, but now since my sonic got good enough the only counterpicks that i dont play sonic against are snake and Mk, im fully capable of beating every other character with sonic, and i only play lucario, and i only know lucario for this one match.

 

[Inui]

I honestly don't see how MK, in terms of tournament domination, is different.

Then you have no idea how much better Akuma was than everyone else. If you did, you couldn't possibly have said what you just said.

1. whether im good at the game or not doesnt really have too too much bearing on the amount of information that i can collect on it.

Your skill level can be used as evidence when it comes to how much you actually understand high level play.

2. ive been playing lucario from the beginning, and i picked up fox and D3 specifically for this matchup, and im tempted to learn bowser and ZSS just for this one character. i legitamately gave up on trying to play sonic against MK about 3 months ago, so character choice has nothing to do with it.
i used to like lucario, but now since my sonic got good enough the only counterpicks that i dont play sonic against are snake and Mk, im fully capable of beating every other character with sonic, and i only play lucario, and i only know lucario for this one match.

So...what's your problem? Azen has beaten basically every top MK, including M2K, with Lucario. Atomsk has beaten many with Dedede, INCLUDING MEW2KING'S LOL MEW2KING WAS FORCED TO DEDEDE DITTO HIM TO WIN BECAUSE HIS META KNIGHT GOT SPANKED BY ATOMSK'S DEDEDE IN ROUND 1.

Yes, you will need to use some sort of top tier character or random decent "counter" like ZSS to beat MK. He is the best character in this game.

 

[DRaGZ]

I said in terms of tournament domination.

I specifically made an effort not to compare the two characters as characters, just their tournament history at the beginnings of their metagames.

 

[Inui]

I said in terms of tournament domination.

I specifically made an effort not to compare the two characters.

I don't know any numbers when it comes to how much Akuma won back in those days, so I can't argue with you about that. I just know that Meta Knight is far more beatable than Akuma was.

I also fail to see this MK domination that everyone else is seeing. He's acquiring a lot of points in Ankoku's list because he's popular, mained by the best player in the world, and the best character, but I do not see any form of dominance.

 

[DRaGZ]

I don't know any numbers when it comes to how much Akuma won back in those days, so I can't argue with you about that. I just know that Meta Knight is far more beatable than Akuma was.

I also fail to see this MK domination that everyone else is seeing. He's acquiring a lot of points in Ankoku's list because he's popular, mained by the best player in the world, and the best character, but I do not see any form of dominance.

Well, in your region maybe. Other regions would disagree.

And Akuma actually did not win that much early on because there were already pros and they were already good, despite his superiority as a character, but his rise to notoriety was much faster than with MK because he was such a specific target of scrutiny, both for tourny goers to choose and for people to criticize. If I remember correctly, it actually was initially posited for him to be banned because he was unlockable more than anything else. And then his retardedness became clear, and then he was banned here and soft-banned there.

Also, it was much easier to ban Akuma in terms of acceptance because he was essentially inserted into what was an already existing game (the SF2 series). People had already chosen characters long before this and they were used to them. Then Akuma gets thrown in the mix, and people started playing him. But when he was banned, people were willing to go back to characters they had already developed (made even easier because the ban was very quick).

I feel like this sort of tournament history is exactly what's happening with MK here in America, just slower because it was a completely new-feeling game with no real set understandings of what character was what from the get go (because Akuma played exactly like a Shoto, just much better, it was very easy to pick him up). MK is probably already "soft-banned" in Japan as we speak, since that's mainly dependent on the pros and the pros there are pretty quick to pick up on the needs of their scene.

Unlike here unfortunately. *sigh* I guess it's cuz we're so much bigger.

 

[ChrisTheCom]

I think you're both right.

Yes, Metaknight does have an inherent advantage over loads of other characters in the game, to the point where it just grows absurd to how much he can dominate another person.

Yes, he can be picked up by someone with little experience and they will do better than if they used a more complicated character.

But I see Metaknight's strengths to simply come down to his speed (both attack and movement) and priority. Lets face it, with enough experience facing Metaknights, and perhaps some luck it is possible to defeat him. With any character. It all comes down to skill and experience, of both players.

Lets say Mew2King, to prove his skill, chose sonic, or mario against another high ranked Metaknight player. Surely he would have a chance to win, and it would come down to the two player's skill, reactions, and experience.

Eventually there will be enough people with experience against Metaknight to be able to confidently go against him with their best main, knowing that its not going to be a one -sided match up.

As to theory that Metaknight is so good, that perhaps the best Meta counter is Meta himself, and hence more people will start using Metaknight, I don't see that as a permanent thing, and as such actions shouldn't be made against it. If everyone did start using Meta, eventually someone's going to get so sick of them that they'll use someone "ridiculuous" against them in a tourney, and win.

Already this rejection of Metaknight, simply because he is mainstream, or from the idea that you may need his extra advantages to compensate for your own skill, is occuring.

I will never use Metaknight. Partially because of the two above ideas, but also because he simply doesn't suit my playstyle, and there will always be someone who finds Metaknight uncomfortable, or not fun, to use. And they may be good enough to beat other Meta's at tourneys.

Metaknight should not be banned. Of course he has an obvious advantage, but surely as Brawl devotees we owe it to ourselves and the community to find tactics against Meta players, and find the advantages in even the lowest ranked characters to allow tourneys to be what they should be.

A competition to compare the skill of one player to another, and find the best player, using a character who they have fun with.

 

[Jam Stunna]

it's cuz the new brawl community sucks. Melee community was way better and more mature. http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=165255185

I don't think anything but top level play should count for anything. Nobody should care that Foxmaster97332 can't beat a 9 year-old tornado spamming MK in Wyoming. At the top level, MK frequently loses to many characters and players. The best MKs lose to G-reg's Snake, my Snake, Azen's Lucario, Atomsk's Dedede, D1's Falco, NinjaLink's Diddy, etc.

I agree that the Brawl community has its problems, and I really think it's great that you have fun with MK, M2K. That's what it's about in the end, fun right? I think MK is overpowered, but I admit that when I play with him, I have fun in an "LOL GOD MODE" kind of way.

But I disagree with Inui for that reason. Alot of people are starting to not have fun. Those of us who have been doing this for a while tend to hold the newer players in contempt, call them whiners, say they went for the easy game, etc. And while that may all be true, in the end, Foxmaster97332's opinion is the one that actually matters more. There are only a handful of M2Ks and Azens, but tournaments are comprised primarily of Foxmaster97332 and his friends. They are starting to see the fight against Metaknight (both literally and figuratively) as hopeless. Even the casuals I play against are starting to feel that way. When we sit around and I **** them with Marth and Fox in Melee, I never get a complaint. As soon as I pick MK in Brawl, they're up in arms about it (despite the fact that my MK honestly sucks, I usually barely win with him).

What I'm getting at is that Metaknight is symptomatic of a deeper problem. Brawl's lower threshold of tech skill has brought in a lower caliber of player. That's not a knock, but a fact I believe, supported by anecdotal evidence. When I bring my Wii to my school, I hear this all the time:

Them: What game did you bring?
Me: Melee.
Them: Why didn't you bring Brawl?
Me: I don't like it.
Them: But it's easier!

Brawl has a different culture and philosophy than Melee does, but we continue to apply Melee reasoning (should've teched it!) to a game that doesn't actually support that mentality. It's Foxmaster97332's tournament. If he gets beat by a spammy MK, takes his ball and goes home, then you have a real problem. The M2Ks, Azens and NinjaLinks are still going to be there, but who are they going to play? Who's money are they going to win?

I think Metaknight is gay. I think he's borderline broken. I think that Sakurai designed him in such a way that anyone, skilled or not, could make a match look closer than it actually is. With all that said, I'm still ideologically opposed to banning him, because my opinion has always been "Let the metagame handle it". And if the metagame is insufficient to devise a counter strategy to a character, then why are you playing the game in the first place?

However, I'm moving more in the direction of supporting a ban for practical purposes. In the same way that you can't play Brawl like it's Melee, you can't treat the Brawl community like it's it's the Melee community. I've made it publicly known several times what I think of Brawl, but I support the community at large, and as long as we continue to play this game, the tournament scene has to function. Telling Foxmaster97332 to just "man up" isn't going to work because, no offense, he's not going to. He's probably just going to quit. It hasn't gotten to the point where we need to cave in to the complainers for the sake of the community, but I suspect that day is not far off.

 

[PhantomX]

Did Inui really just put Donkey Kong in top tier? Not only can D3 infinite him, Wario can CG him to about 110 into Fsmash as well :\

It's also not so much that people aren't abusing Grab Release stuff (B/c they are), the Wario's have just stopped doing things like Fsmashing shield and such, and he's arguably the hardest character to grab in the game when played right (I'm usually grabbed at most 2-3 times a round by D3s)

 

[metalmonstar]

because you guys are using different arguments

if you are going on matchups and counterpicks it is the same as fox

if you are going on tourney results at important things it is the same as marth (except at the big things, marths domination was technically more than MKs thanks to ken/azen/me)

fox does not have bad stages. The worst you can do to fox is pick FD with a character that can CG him, and that's not even a bad match. I beat Ken's Marth in tourney before my Fox reached my prime, I beat PC's Marth there, Azen's Marth there, and have lost to PC's Fox there before. Fox has no matchup arguably worse than 55:45, same as MK. He also can't be counterpicked. Fox also has a thing called lasers, so anything he doesn't like he can just run from you and shoot, while MK has to attack you. It is a very comparable thing.

So metaknight is Fox and Marth combined. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the whole reason why we are having this debate in the first place. Metaknight has no bad matchups, no bad stages, very few inherent weaknesses, and makes up the vast majority of the competitive scene. I think that is what people have been saying since page 1.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Question: Do you or the Casuals you play with play at the highest possible level? Nobody cares if you don't have "fun" with Brawl and want to ban things because it's no longer fun for you if you don't even play at the highest possible level.

If the people who do, however, largely feel that it isn't "fun" and want to abandon Brawl, then it'll matter. But nobody cares what you or some Casuals think (and as far as I know, you're not one of the best Brawl players in the world).

 

[Tenki]

Melee was an offline game.
Brawl is a conjunction of online and offline gaming.

Online gamers tend to be worse off in attitude and such than offline gamers, partly because of the internet mask, and because there's no "handshake and good game" like there would be offline.

Brawl community has alot of people who are almost strictly online gamers.

It's to be expected lol.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Question: Do you or the Casuals you play with play at the highest possible level? Nobody cares if you don't have "fun" with Brawl and want to ban things because it's no longer fun for you if you don't even play at the highest possible level.

If the people who do, however, largely feel that it isn't "fun" and want to abandon Brawl, then it'll matter. But nobody cares what you or some Casuals think (and as far as I know, you're not one of the best Brawl players in the world).

The entire point of my post is that it does matter what casual/low placing players think. At some point, everyone who attends tournaments was a casual player that decided to make the jump to competitive play. How do you grow the community if those casuals have already decided it's not worth becoming competitive because Metaknight will **** them?

Same with low-level competitive players. But then the question changes: how do you sustain the community if low-level Smashers have already decided it's not worth getting better because Metaknight will **** them?

 

[ProBrawler]

It's undeniable that the number of MK's in the Brawl community is increasing. That means that the likelihood of MK's winning and generally dominating (as in spots 2-10) tournaments increases. Therefore, people will have an even greater desire to switch to him. Then even MORE MK's will be participating until the entire quarter finals is MK dittos. Those instances where people partially use MK in tourney and win, imo, may just be more proof of his dominance, that people resorted to him when they had their backs against the wall and won b/c of the switch. Now if people would have enough pride in their mains to try and improve them instead of switching, then I'd be more accepting of MK. But that's not a realistic scenario. He brings success, so people will switch to him. Personally, I'm a bottom (mid to low) tier user almost exclusively. And I still use them at a rather high level with decent success. Imo, you don't NEED to be a top tier to win even at a top level, but it's precedent and does help a heck of a lot.

 

[Neon304]

Melee was an offline game.
Brawl is a conjunction of online and offline gaming.

Online gamers tend to be worse off in attitude and such than offline gamers, partly because of the internet mask, and because there's no "handshake and good game" like there would be offline.

Brawl community has alot of people who are almost strictly online gamers.

It's to be expected lol.

Sounds like AiB to me, Smash Brawl Rankings isn't like that. Almost everybody says "gg" after most matches.



Anyway, Metaknight, Metaknight, I honestly don't know what should be done, I just hope the Back Room makes the most logical decision. If they do ban him, I hope they have a good enough reason, and I also hope they keep an eye open for future evidence that could change his ban status. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I watched him footstool the tornado over and over when I played him.[/quot4e]
Stop tornadoing badly then?
Again it sounds like you're making mistakes that shouldn't be made and from the videos I have seen of you, you tend to linger when using the tornado.
[quote[

Once again, stop doing everything in your power to slander me and actually try to debate.

Agreed. Flames are bad

Overpopulation
Why do people keep saying MK has more than 50% of the Atlantic North wins? I went through Ankoku's archive, and MK barely wins. I attend 5 events per month in my region, and MK rarely gets 1st.

What part of the archives are you going through?

 

[Tenki]

Sounds like AiB to me, Smash Brawl Rankings isn't like that. Almost everybody says "gg" after most matches.

It's not specific to just one site or whatever. Almost all online multiplayer games with winning and losing have it.

Think of online FPS games.

>_>

Then inject their mentality to what used to be an offline fighting game.

That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Neon304]

It's not specific to just one site or whatever. Almost all online multiplayer games with winning and losing have it.

Think of online FPS games.

>_>

Then inject their mentality to what used to be an offline fighting game.

That's what I'm talking about.

I know what you mean, and I've experienced it with Brawl, mostly on AiB and Gamebattles though. I have seen it on SBR, but not so much recently.

 

[Inui]

Did Inui really just put Donkey Kong in top tier? Not only can D3 infinite him, Wario can CG him to about 110 into Fsmash as well :\

I personally don't care about techniques like Dedede's walking CG/infinite because that kind of garbage takes away from the competitiveness of Brawl far more than Meta Knight does.

Donkey Kong is probably A tier, which is not top. S is top. A tier is perfectly capable of winning, though. I've won tournaments with Marth.

It's undeniable that the number of MK's in the Brawl community is increasing. That means that the likelihood of MK's winning and generally dominating (as in spots 2-10) tournaments increases. Therefore, people will have an even greater desire to switch to him. Then even MORE MK's will be participating until the entire quarter finals is MK dittos. Those instances where people partially use MK in tourney and win, imo, may just be more proof of his dominance, that people resorted to him when they had their backs against the wall and won b/c of the switch. Now if people would have enough pride in their mains to try and improve them instead of switching, then I'd be more accepting of MK. But that's not a realistic scenario. He brings success, so people will switch to him. Personally, I'm a bottom (mid to low) tier user almost exclusively.

My rank in NJ while maining Marth: 4th
My rank in NJ after maining MK: 4th

My typical tournament placing while maining Marth: 2nd-4th, sometimes 1st.
My typical tournament placing while maining MK: 2nd

I haven't placed lower than 2nd in NJ since switching to MK because M2K hasn't been at a tournament with me for a while, but I also haven't taken 1st in NJ while I did twice with Marth in the past.

Me switching to MK didn't change anything for me. The only thing it did was make me have more fun. I think my doing "better" is because I've improved drastically as a player overall. I am less arrogant, more open to the advice of others, better at taking losses, and more respectful to my fellow players overall. That's why I was popular in Ohio at Season's Beatings III and it's why when Yes! finally ended his losing streak to me I was actually happy for him and took the loss like a real player.

 

[Yuna]

The entire point of my post is that it does matter what casual/low placing players think.

No, we do not rewrite the rules (and do drastic things such as ban characters) to appease the Casual nobodies nobody really cares about.

They don't feel like being a part of our community? Fine, then they don't have to join. Why should we change our way of playing to appease them? It's probably no exaggeration that should we turn items on, hundreds of thousands of Casual gamers would consider joining or actually join our community. Or if we banned chaingrabs. Or banned any number of things that many people feel that "unfair" and "too good".

There are any number of thousands of Casual players and lower leveled players who have given up or not bothered to ever join because they just dislike our rules. We do not change the rules to accommodate them! You can't just go "Change your rules or I won't join!" and expect people to actually change their rules.

If we were to run tournaments merely as a business venture, trying to lure in as many competitors as possible, we'd turn Items on and let the thousands upon thousands of Casual players who just love Items have their way. But we don't do that, now do we?

So, no, nobody (credible) really cares about what you or some Casuals (because you specifically brought up Casuals) play, whether or not you can or cannot beat Meta and whether or not you're no longer having "fun" and quite possible feeling like jumping ship.

At some point, everyone who attends tournaments was a casual player that decided to make the jump to competitive play. How do you grow the community if those casuals have already decided it's not worth becoming competitive because Metaknight will **** them?

We were all Casual players once. But not all of us had the gall to demand the rules change to our liking before joining the Competitive community just because we don't have "fun" with them. Either start your own tournaments where you can set the rules however you like it or try to change the rules through actual logic, reasoning, debating and whatnot instead of "I'm no longer having fun".

Same with low-level competitive players. But then the question changes: how do you sustain the community if low-level Smashers have already decided it's not worth getting better because Metaknight will **** them?

See above.

 

[PhantomX]

I know he's good, but you listed him as top there, which is what made me rofl.

And, while I agree with you that CGs/Infinites are grabage... what give you the right to decide what does/doesn't remove from the competitiveness/fun of a game over everyone else?

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yuna, Smash tournaments in general are fan service affairs. TOs usually don't make money, and they usually don't win their own tournaments. They do it because they love the game, and they enjoy playing with other people. They rely on other people who love the game to come and willingly hand over money that they're never going to see again. Compliance with SBR is voluntary, and the general agreement is that SBR 's ruleset is the best way to have a competitive. We were lucky in the past that most people tended to agree with SBR's judgment.

This Metaknight debate is, to the best of my knowledge, something that the community has never faced before. Most people do not agree. According to the Ban MK Poll, 56% of voters support banning him, while 44% do not. That's not enough of a margin to make a judgment either way.

Now let's say that over the next few weeks, that percentage increases to 60%. Or 65% Or even 70%. Are you going to tell a clear majority of Smashers that, despite what they want, a group of non-elected Smashers that comprises a small fraction of the community and issues non-binding mandates has decided against them? Or conversely, what if the number of people who don't support banning him increases to 60%, and SBR decides to ban him anyway?

THAT is the true problem here. There's never been such a polarizing issue as Metaknight in the community, and what happens if SBR decides against the community, either way? If SBR decides with the minority, where does that leave everyone else? At it's heart, this is a question of governance. SBR does not have the resources to enforce it's decisions. It relies on voluntary compliance, and for the most part it has had it. But what you are suggesting is that we ignore the (admittedly close) majority to stick to an idea of competition. It's a stance I can sympathize with, but where does it leave us in the long run?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yuna, you need to cut that "superiority complex" mess out.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

you cant just say that we cant care about anybody except the 15-20 dudes that win. because if it werent for the low level and casual people, nobody would travel for tournaments. if we didnt have all of those low level dudes coming around, the biggest tourneys would only like 30 people. and you would have to have like the whole east coast show up just for there to be 30 ppl at that one event. you cant support a competitive scene with so few people. if you want to base your judgements only on the people at the top, than you are going to alienate everybody else and nobody will want to play the game.

and the part about fun not being a factor is completely untrue, i dont know about you, but i know that everyone in my area plays because the game is fun and if the game WASNT fun, than nobody would play it and nobody would go to tourneys for it. you have to find the equilibrium between fun and competitiveness in order to make it work and make the game the best it can be so that the maximum amount of people possible go to the tourneys, thats how we sustain the game. and that max equilibrium does not contain meta knight

 

[Jam Stunna]

Spock quote = win.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You're honestly just being a prick here if you're going to pick at things like this. You should know exactly what I mean by this.
I know exactly what you mean here.

Only top tiers really get to win.

Okay, let's break this down for you nice and simply so you can understand it.

-Jesiah wins every match with Snake.
-His opponent in grand finals picks a ******** stage that needs to be banned.
-Jesiah switches to MK for a single match.
-Jesiah wins and then finishes the set with Snake.

MK doesn't deserve any credit at all. Snake won.
thanks for breaking it down for me I think he diserves even more credit now since it was in the grand finals. At first I thought it was in like quarters or eighths but nope its the grand finals where if he lost he would have won a lot less money. Just like azen.


Okay? Certainly not the same amount of credit as Ken's Marth, which won every single other match besides one in the entire tournament.
It deserves the same amount of credit he used it to win theres no ifs ands or buts here.


M2K strongly disagees with the SBR tier list, as does every top player around me, which includes Atomsk and teh_spamerer.
Ok so your region has different representation guess I should use an extremely 4 people made tier list then.


LMAO

Then you couldn't even fathom the level he's on if you didn't think he was really smart. I've played him countless times. It's like he reads your mind. It's that crazy. He picks the best options in every situation.
to bad thats impossible and even reading minds wouldn't make you smart it would just mean you can read minds.


You've resorted to childish personal attacks and spouting off random nonsense.

I'm considered top 10 in the world at Fire Emblem debating in the English Fire Emblem community, which includes everywhere but Asia. I get accused randomly of not being that good by scrubs and stuff because I'm an elitist and only bust out real posts against other top debaters in debate tournaments.

Proof: http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/392617/1/

Ok so you can debate when it comes to other issues but not this one, big deal. I'm not actually attacking you I'm attacking your arguments which contradict them selfs in the same post. Like what you said with Da kid of games I approve of. no time to explain it step by step for you right now though.

 

[Brinzy]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

Except you don't need to play competitively.You don't need to play matches that have items off. You don't need to play matches that allow chaingrabbing and infinites. You don't need to play against edgehogging. You don't need to do any of that........ unless you decide to make the jump to competitive fighting.

Look at South America. Most countries use Spanish as their official language. Brazil's is, iirc, Portuguese. If a Brazilian who, for whatever reason, only spoke Portuguese and wanted to reside in another country in South America (let's say the "upper class neighborhoods, I guess), do you sincerely believe that it's everyone else's job to cater to him and speak Portuguese? No! He better 1) learn how to speak and understand Spanish, or 2) find someone who will use Portuguese with him.

That quote doesn't hold anything unless you compare two groups that are in more similar ruts, not just on opposite sides. If people don't want to be chaingrabbed/edgehogged/playing no item matches, they need to find competitive players who are willing to accomodate them. If others don't want to change standard rules for those players, that's tough. Nobody is forcing you to enter those tournaments. Go host your own for players like you.


Oh, and I could totally wtfpwn that noob Inui at FE, lol elitist don't know what he's SAYIN'.

 

[PhantomX]

Except you don't need to play competitively.You don't need to play matches that have items off. You don't need to play matches that allow chaingrabbing and infinites. You don't need to play against edgehogging. You don't need to do any of that........ unless you decide to make the jump to competitive fighting.

Look at South America. Most countries use Spanish as their official language. Brazil's is, iirc, Portuguese. If a Brazilian who, for whatever reason, only spoke Portuguese and wanted to reside in another country in South America, do you sincerely believe that it's everyone else's job to cater to him and speak Portuguese? No! He better 1) learn how to speak and understand Spanish, or 2) find someone who will use Portuguese with him.

That quote doesn't hold anything unless you compare two groups that are in more similar ruts, not just on opposite sides. If people don't want to be chaingrabbed/edgehogged/playing no item matches, they need to find competitive players who are willing to accomodate them. If others don't want to change standard rules for those players, that's tough. Nobody is forcing you to enter those tournaments. Go host your own for players like you.


Oh, and I could totally wtfpwn that noob Inui at FE, lol elitist don't know what he's SAYIN'.

People need to think up better anecdotes. You just, in essence, proved his point. The Brazilian guy is one of the few.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anecdote

You just wtfpwned yourself there. >_>

 

[Brinzy]

That's nice.

Now apply it to competitive community vs. "casuals." He still in the majority (Casuals are in the majority), but he's in the minority when it comes to competitive gaming (competitive players generally have more priority over this type of stuff than Casuals do). There are more Casuals, but it doesn't matter because there are fewer Casuals who will try to join the competitive scene and also try to change the rules.

I probably suck at wording, but the point was that just because there are more of a certain type of player doesn't mean that they get priority when they jump to another scene.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's nice.

Now apply it to competitive community vs. "casuals." He still in the majority (Casuals are in the majority), but he's in the minority when it comes to competitive gaming (competitive players generally have more priority over this type of stuff than Casuals do). There are more Casuals, but it doesn't matter because there are fewer Casuals who will try to join the competitive scene and also try to change the rules.

You'll have to change your anecdote to accommodate it.
more along the lines of that he enters the upperclass spanish community but refuses tos peak spanish.
While his portugese brethren are the majority overall they are actually the minority when it comes to the competitive community.

<_<
>_>
*runs*

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

This Metaknight debate is, to the best of my knowledge, something that the community has never faced before. Most people do not agree. According to the Ban MK Poll, 56% of voters support banning him, while 44% do not. That's not enough of a margin to make a judgment either way.

NTSC Melee Sheik would like to disagree, I believe.

Stuff.

It's not superiority, it's logic. And quite frankly, the rules are not written to accommodate lower-leveled players. We do not turn on items because one hundred thousand (hyperbole) new players might join if we do. Whether or not Peanut Butter and Jam and/or random Casuals dislike Meta Knight and feel like having him in the have "isn't fun" doesn't matter.

Well, it matters to them, but we won't ban him just because of it. It would be preposterous to. We'll ban him if there are good reasons to and random lowered leveled people saying "We want him banned!" without being able to give up good reasoning except "Just because we dislike him!" is not a good reason.

If we wanted to maximize attendance and minimize whining, we'd turn on all stages, all items, ban chaingrabbing, edgeguarding, edgehogging, comboing, any kind of canceling and every single character down to Low because someone somewhere will whine about everyone else being "cheap" in some way.

If we did, then we'd get thousands of Casuals loving the Competitive scene more and quite possibly joining. But we won't. Because it would be stupid.

I've been saying it for years that we if you don't like a community, fine, don't join (or quit if you're already a part of it). Don't demand the rules change simply because you dislike them. What arrogance and egoism! If you want to change the rules and feel they're wrong, argue, debate and use valid arguments and facts and evidence for why they're wrong, not "I dislike them!".

Successor of Raphael sat down and wrote out a good analogy for what I've been saying for years. Demanding something change just because you dislike it, simply out of personal preference is stupid.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Yuna you've overused your bold quotient for the day.

 

[Yuna]

People need to think up better anecdotes. You just, in essence, proved his point. The Brazilian guy is one of the few.

No, he didn't. The analogy is perfect valid. If 100.000 Brazilian people wanted to re-locate elsewhere in South America, would it then be valid for them to demand everyone else change their way of living to accommodate them?

No. Something that is inherently wrong does not become right or even less wrong just because more people want it! 10 people demanding the rules change for preposterous reasons doesn't magically become less preposterous if they suddenly number 1000.

Come up with valid arguments. Not "Because I want it!".

 

[Brinzy]

Ok then, "upperclass Spanish community" it is if it makes things clearer.

I just assumed that people would think that in my anecdote, the Portuguese speaker was going from community to community (tourney to tourney) and the only way he'd get accommodation would be to find someone who primarily went with Portuguese (those rare item tournies or tournies that ban CGs)... but we know that compared to Brazil (Casuals), these smaller communities in general are still the minority in raw numbers.

I think Yuna explained what I was trying to say better than I even said it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh by no means did I misunderstand you. I understood it perfectly well but pointed it out because it may be difficult to catch on for some people who skim a bit.