The problem with limited grab "solutions" (regarding CG)

[homer2020]

There is the: how do you know how many should be conisidered cheap? when does it all of a sudden become "cheap"? How far can someone take it? can they do one more? and once one more is allowed can they do one more?

Now if it were only X amount of grabs per match the problem here is that it really limits what a character can do, sometime the best thing to do is grab, and you can't just let them not be able to grab as that can get rid of their only option and can screw them over. if you jsut finished grabbing and your opponent and they shielded should they not be allowed to grab them again?

I'm not arguing whether or not CG's should be banned, there's another thread for that, but If you think they should be banned you have to come up with a good solution. *cough*onlyscrubsthinkCG'sshouldbebanned*cough*

 

[Vro]

Well, there should be no term such as cheap in a competitive sense. For friendles tho, it seems like 2-3 grabs per chain is enough. The beginning of your post seems concerned with that aspect mostly.

Also, there are certain chaingrabs that some people deem broken (ic's). So don't go ahead assuming that chain grabs are only accepted at the tourney level. DDD's and Falco's are also very easy and applicable to most of the cast. Should we allow select characters to have such a great advantage or intervene? That seems to be the real question.

 

[Pye]

I'm fairly sure you misunderstand the rule people are trying to implement, homer2020.

I think a "5 grab limit" means "if you grab your opponent, you're allowed a maximum of 5 chaingrabs", not "you are allowed to grab only 5 times a match".

I could be the one completely wrong, but I really hope I'm not.

 

[homer2020]

ok here's the thing I was trying to get at but completely forgot to say it. Say it is only 5 chain grabs then you have to stop. So then what? your opponent does what ever is best at the time (dodge, attack what ever), then you can just grab again, rinse and repeat, no point in even getting rid of the chaingrab at that point. or if you HAVE to do another attack before you grab again then you can be losing on opportunities to grab, which in turn can get you punished, which in turn can make the match unfair for those who can chain grab.

 

[Vro]

ok here's the thing I was trying to get at but completely forgot to say it. Say it is only 5 chain grabs then you have to stop. So then what? your opponent does what ever is best at the time (dodge, attack what ever), then you can just grab again, rinse and repeat, no point in even getting rid of the chaingrab at that point. or if you HAVE to do another attack before you grab again then you can be losing on opportunities to grab, which in turn can get you punished, which in turn can make the match unfair for those who can chain grab.

So you're saying that you have to monitor chain grabbing, but it also gimps them because it reduces followup possibilities? You can just not chain grab. There's a large difference between a talent being burdening and having a small burden as a talent.

Those who are rich have to pay more taxes. Does that mean their status gimps them? No. Instead it came at a small price.

 

[Tien2500]

Isn't there a topic about chaingrabbing already? And didn't you already make another topic about your opinion on chaingrabbing that was closed?

 

[homer2020]

What I think is that CGing shouldn't be banned, but I'm not getting ino that, theres a topic for that.

Is it fair that you need to gimp one character to other are no longer "gimped" (they aren't you're just chaingrabbing them). That's when it becomes hypocrisy. Focus more on the grab... do 5 chain grabs.... stop... do what ever... grab again, or you can just chain grab 5 times, stop grab them again, what's the difference between this and just chaingrabbing regularly? CGing obviously isn't a broken techniques, or else Marth, D3, and IC would all be top of the top tier (More so IC because theirs works on everyone)

 

[homer2020]

Isn't there a topic about chaingrabbing already? And didn't you already make another topic about your opinion on chaingrabbing that was closed?

This isn't so much about chaingrabbing, but about the solution to it that I've seen a few times.

 

[Pye]

ok here's the thing I was trying to get at but completely forgot to say it. Say it is only 5 chain grabs then you have to stop. So then what? your opponent does what ever is best at the time (dodge, attack what ever), then you can just grab again, rinse and repeat, no point in even getting rid of the chaingrab at that point. or if you HAVE to do another attack before you grab again then you can be losing on opportunities to grab, which in turn can get you punished, which in turn can make the match unfair for those who can chain grab.

If you suck enough to get grabbed again immediately after being released from a grab, then what's the difference whether your opponent can chainthrow or not? They could just grab you again with any character, even if they can't chaingrab. So by your logic, we should make it so you can't grab twice in a row with anyone, you must attack in between.

Ludicrous. The idea of the 5 grab limit is so that a grab in a game between evenly matched players doesn't result in chaingrab -> stock. Two evenly matched players will be having trouble grabbing each other, and one won't be able to "simply grab the other" immediately again. That "spotdodge, attack, whatever..." in between grabs is a chance to fight back. This is akin to combos: In a combo, you hit 4-5 times in a row without your opponent escaping (for Brawl players, read 1-2 hits). Then your opponent has the chance to fight back, and might get something on you. Between chainthrows is like your opponent "escaping" it, and has a chance to retaliate.

EDIT: People aren't attempting to ban/limit chaingrabbing because those characters who can do it dominate (they clearly don't), people try to regulate it because it renders certain characters (Ness, Lucas and Luigi to name a few) unusable. Such a powerful character specific technique can be seen as unfair to players of that character, whether or not they'd be winning anyway.

 

[Tien2500]

This can honestly be in the other thread... But if you insist on arguing there is a huge difference between chaingrabbing five times and then stopping, then grabbing them again vs a normal chaingrab. The difference is you have to grab them again (duh).

Lets say its Dedede vs DK. If the limitation was in effect then every time DK gets grabbed he'd lose somewhere between 30-50% I believe. Then he has a chance to escape. So each time he gets grabbed he loses a large chunk of life.

If the limitation is not in effect then every time DK is grabbed he loses a stock. Its a bit worse.

 

[homer2020]

Ok how about we put it this way. You chaingrab 5 times, stop and you give them 1 frame to escape (I know this would be incredibly hard) and grab them again, it is no longer a chaingrab as it is escapable, is this acceptable? yes. I know it would be hard to grab immediately after letting go but it's still possible if you are good enough, if you are trying hard enough you can get a grab relatively soon, two grabs and you can easily take someone out (especially an IC near an edge, that would only take one grab if you spike)

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I'm pretty sure the line is drawn if the CG is infinite (in which case it goes as far as to be called an 'Infinite' specifically to differentiate it from normal chain grabs).

Case in point, chain grabs that aren't infinite are already limited (you can usually escape them with DI and/or at certain percentages. Infinites are inescapable unless the person performing the infinite messes up).

 

[Tien2500]

Nope. You're completely wrong. Because if they're enforcing this rule they would likely force you to give them a period of time where the opponent has a clear chance to escape. Now if you left them with a one frame window of opportunity there is no way a judge or monitor would be able to tell that this was not a chaingrab, based on the capabilities of the human eyes. Now I'm assuming you wouldn't be able to grab immediately after anyway and if you tried without they'd DQ you or something. So they'll be able to get away.

 

[juniorv376]

Ok how about we put it this way. You chaingrab 5 times, stop and you give them 1 frame to escape (I know this would be incredibly hard) and grab them again, it is no longer a chaingrab as it is escapable, is this acceptable? yes. I know it would be hard to grab immediately after letting go but it's still possible if you are good enough, if you are trying hard enough you can get a grab relatively soon, two grabs and you can easily take someone out (especially an IC near an edge, that would only take one grab if you spike)

First, this thread should be closed because this can be containe din the other thres "Chain grabing.. Your perspective/opinion" As this is your opinion.

Anyhow. Im for CG, but if its limited which would be fine too. Then if you block after a chain grab then you can get grabbed again. it wouldnt be against the rule because the "chain" was broken. Even for jsut one chain.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Its not like any limitations set will be observed. In a big tournament, you cant very well have a judge for each match, and this means in early rounds any rules on CG infinites may be ignored. Even if you dont CG Ness in round one, he can still call for a judge and make the claim you CG'd him to 100% and finished with an usmash. Maybe his friends will back him up. Maybe you did CG him, but when he makes the claim, people biased to your side will argue against that. In the early rounds, I can see the ruling being ignored.

But, I'm making an assumption on how tournaments go. I've yet to go to anything but small local tournaments, so dont be too hard on me if I'm not well informed.

I really dont know how we should go about this.

 

[juniorv376]

Its not like any limitations set will be observed. In a big tournament, you cant very well have a judge for each match, and this means in early rounds any rules on CG infinites may be ignored. Even if you dont CG Ness in round one, he can still call for a judge and make the claim you CG'd him to 100% and finished with an usmash. Maybe his friends will back him up. Maybe you did CG him, but when he makes the claim, people biased to your side will argue against that. In the early rounds, I can see the ruling being ignored.

But, I'm making an assumption on how tournaments go. I've yet to go to anything but small local tournaments, so dont be too hard on me if I'm not well informed.

I really dont know how we should go about this.

You're right.

It will take alot of man power to inforce. You are completly right Mr. Escalator. Unless you get CG'ed thendie in order to save the match an show it to judges. but then ppl can CG after the 3 min limit. Again to hard -_-

 

[2.72]

So, your argument is essentially about the practicality of enforcing the rule, correct? The thesis is basically that there is no clear way to draw the line such that "everything beyond here is illegal."

That's a good point. It's true; adjudicating these rules requires some human common sense. That's not necessarily a show stopper, though. There are precedents. In melee we banned extraordinarily evasive tactics (Peach wall bombing and such), even in cases where they were not actually infinite. Where did we draw the line? Well, there wasn't one, really, we just told people that they were illegal and most people were kind enough to not really push the limits. When they did, well, the judge had to step in.

This argument looks a lot like the debate (in Melee) over wobbling, an Ice Climber infinite caused, basically, by having Popo grab someone, then Nana repeatedly jab them, which prevented them from escaping. The SBR voted that wobbling should not be banned, not because a ban was difficult to adjudicate but because they just didn't find it unfair. A lot of tournaments banned it anyway. Ever heard of problems enforcing this ban? I haven't, but it's just as ambiguous as the proposed chain grab ban. Is it fine if Nana jabs someone in a grab exactly once? Sure, it might even be an accident. Where do you draw the line? Well, you don't really have to draw a line at all. Just telling people that wobbling was banned worked almost all the time, and the rest of the time a little common sense on the judges' part worked fine.

Incidentally, for a while there was a much more precise rule, something along the lines of "Nana can only jab someone in a grab 5 times." This is really reminiscent of the proposed chain grab rule. It was more or less abandoned in favor of a blanket "no wobbling" because no one actually cared where the precise line was; no sane judge would make someone forfeit a match just because they put one toe over it. The fact that this rule was more complicated made people forget about it or misunderstand it fairly commonly.

In light of this experience with wobbling, I think that we could make a simple rule: "No chaingrabbing." I'm not sure that I like the rule, but I think that it'd be enforceable.

One random note: you can't claim that a banned tactic was used after the fact, no matter how many witnesses you might have. Pause the game and ask the person to stop. If that doesn't work, call over a judge and have them watch the remaining part of the match.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well, I also thought the pausing functionality was turned off in a tournament, whether to save time or stop a random pause button input that would purposefully mess your opponent up. I didn't think it was left on, but if thats the case, then thats probably the best thing you can go about doing.

So it's got to be all or nothing, then? No gray areas, those where you can CG a set amount? I'm unsure. It looks like it would work better than the limiting solution, but I dont know if enough people will back it.

Hm.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, i shall unveil my master plan for CG management. Because i like the flame. It's cold where i live.

Make an as-neutral-as-possible stage consisting of iceblocks and falling blocks. You can't chaingrab infinitely on falling blocks for obvious reasons, ice surfaces increase the distance of the break-away-from-grab animation and prevent catch-and-release CGs. The level could also contain a few normal surfaces that some players will prefer, some will avoid.
Ness players and the like that don't want to get hit by catch-and-release chaingrabs can opt to play that level instead of the neutrals, if an only if they are in a CG matchup. Which is just Marth, as far as i know.

I don't have anything for Dedede's downthrow right now, maybe later.
Ice Climbers don't need to be restrained yet IMO, they aren't winning tournament or locking specific characters down.