The real reason Japan is better than America

[Sensei Seibrik]

I was doing some thinking, Why did America's best get bodied so hard at Apex?

We're all obviously good players.

And MK is "broken" so why would lets say Ocean's rob beat M2k's mk?


Why would Otori pretty much **** on all of our players, WITHOUT resorting to (from what i saw) a single gay tactic? (timing someone out, sharking/planking)

He didn't SEEM that much more technical than anyone from america....

But his choices.. Safe most of the time, but his reads were so accurate.

So what could cause a player, whom as far as I know, was limited to ONLY playing against the people of Japan, destroy the players that have traveled across america numerous times and played/beaten probably 3 times as many people as an average top japanese player? Keep in mind that a general accepted idea of competative fighting games is the more people you play, the more exp. you get, the better your reads get ect... That's why playing friendlies at tournies are so important.

So naturally one would imagine that since, lets say as an example, someone like M2k traveled pretty much every tourny for the last 3 years LOST to people that played within their region only.

How does that make sense? What could possibly merit this?


The best explaination i could come up with, is the stages.

3 years have gone by, and countless players resort mid set to picking things like RC/Frigate/Brinstar/Delfino ANYTHING to get an edge on their opponent.

Yes their all generally accepted stages in america for smash and it was deemed necessary to learn them. But at what cost?

While we were busy worrying only about how to abuse every mechanic the game offered (chaingrabs, walk offs, sharking, infs.), the japenese were worrying about only one thing: Getting better.

They played on a stage list limited to ONLY battlefield, FD, and smashville. They took every stage in the game off their list that could every possibly effect the outcome of a match. I honestly don't see how people in america complain about tripping so much, then pick frigate in hopes of the flip gaying out their opponent, or delfino in hopes of sharking someone to death.

Do you guys know WHY Ocean, not using mk, was able to beat a MK we thought to be the gayest ever, at a tourny where he was expected to play the gayest since mk was gona be banned anyway?

Because MK is an ABSOLUTELY beatable character. The only issue is that yes, he takes consecutive hard reads to punish most of his approaches/escape most of his traps. But all that means is you require a more solid use of your brain.

How can we prove this?

Ocean was a rob that was allowed to fight MK on an even playing field often. As such he was able to improve as a player, testing himself, pushing himself, LEARNING. He combined what mk exp he had, with the smarts he gained over the years and turned out to be able to outplay our "gayest"mk on a similar "even" playing field.


My point with all this: If america truelly does hope to improve and be competitors for Japan the next time we all meet, adopting a simliar ruleset might be in order.

If we only play on their stages, we'll have to be able to beat each other more strait up, using our brains.



TLDR: Japan is better because they rely more on their own skills to carry them to victory, and less on stage gimmicks. As a result they are much more equipped for fighting MK and are able to take down even our "gayest".

**EDIT**

Oh, this just hit me.They prolly have a 10min timer JUST to help ensure that time is never factor. They want to know who deserves to win, not who runs the last 2 minutes out.


Other peoples well thought out thoughts on the subject. Will be collecting points here over time from both sides of the spectrum, don't worry. Please read all posts in this OP before discussing.

[collapse=Tuen]

I discussed this point of view from a learning psychology point of view in the other thread. I've been doing this kind of thing for 2.5 years, if any of you need some kind of validation of the opinion. (Call me critical, but players tend not to listen to someone who hasn't won a national...)

In smash we have three basic things to think about:

Yourself
This is how you control your character, any applicable techniques you may need to learn, and the practice it takes to make this all fluid.

Your Opponent
This includes match up knowledge, reads + responses, and even some player-specific knowledge if necessary.

The Stages
This includes stage gimmicks, match up altering counterpicks, and character-specific weakness (which would be covered by a stage ban).

Psychologically, we can scaffold knowledge better if we reduce the amount of information we have to think about at once. In mathematics, students have an easy time figuring out 2 variable problems, but 3 variable problems go right over their heads. When the 3rd variable gets thrown in, human beings simply lose their ability to intuitively figure out the appropriate interactions.

So, we need to reduce how much we think about at once. In this case, it's the stage list. Of the three big things there, the stages are the easiest to reduce. The knowledge gained from gameplay on the big three can be transferred to other stages. One example I saw the Japanese use were the Shuttle Loop cancel mechanics used on Smashville. Those were taken over to Frigate at one point, for interesting ledge play near the left side of the first transformation.

I could go on about this forever...

Here, have a collapse tag with the other posts in them.

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Tuen
I got bored about about page 10, but I have an interesting point to bring up.

Did anyone else find it curious that Japan managed to adjust to stages that they do not see regularly in tournament? Oh sure they probably put some practice in on each, but we've got years on them, so going to Frigate should be the best idea ever, right? Right? (Not against Olimar it's not... lol purples).

If you guys didn't already know, I do a bit of education research and that involves some cognitive psychology. I'll probably mix up my terms here and there, but the point that follows still stands:

We should adapt Japan's stage list. If we do so, our skill on stages outside the big 3 will improve.

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow players to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

This will work because with less factors to consider, you will be within the zone of proximital development. This is a term that is used to describe the range of cognitive stress one can survive under when learning. If I play a set with M2K (and I have. And I got whopped), I won't learn much because everything is going WAY TOO FAST. This means that the match itself is outside my zone of proximital development.

The concept works with stage gimicks too. If I have to consider whatever it is M2K is doing to me AND all the funny tricks that are present in playing a match on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, then I have even less of a chance of learning something significant. So I have to reduce the 'stress' on my brain.

The correct response to this problem is a simplified system

In the end, I believe that the implementation a Japanese stage set (BF, FD, SV) will greatly benefit our community via the simplification of our competitive system. Do this, and our character control and knowledge will rise to the challenge when the Japanese decide to fly their very best over to hand us our egos on a silver platter once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuen
I forgot to talk about transfer...

It's the phenomena of applying previously attained knowledge to new conditions. Once players attain mastery of the big 3 stages, they'll be capable of utilizing their skills on other stages. A good example is the level of play displayed by Japanese MK's on Frigate. Did anyone else notice that they applied their BF/SV platform cancelling techniques to the part 1 transformation? It was pretty impressive, and fairly instrumental to their victories. The same could be said for their Olimars on Frigate and Yoshi's Island with respect to their use of platforms to limit overhead options.

When a high enough level of mastery is attained, transfer of skills to other environments becomes readily accessible. This set of high level movement skills will trump most stage gimmicks... but they are overshadowed by said gimmicks when everything is thrown into the mix at once. So my previous point is finally wrapped up here:

Mastering character skills and stage control skills on the big 3 will extend to play on other stages. Our stage skills will not diminish with a change in the rule set.

In the end, I'm arguing for the reverse of this statement. General knowledge will trump the use of gimmicks, if learned properly.

[/collapse]

[collapse=D. Disciple]

This is the only part of your post I 100% agree with Seibrik.

It's not the stages, it's not because they didn't try to use gay gimmicks or gay tactics to beat us like we adopted. They used their SKILLS, all of it from poking, zoning, camping, punishing, reading.

I've been watching the recorded matches of each of them over and over. From when they lost and when they won and their poking and zoning were huge factors, also match up knowledge.

M2K vs Ocean, Ocean vs DeLux and even the friendlies that Otori did against M2K are very prime examples.

Ocean on Delfino got timed out, but it wasn't like neither character were in killing percent. The way he was positioned and how he handled his gyro, and was shooting his lasers, by going under the stage shooting them to having the gyro near the edge and repeating, and slightly moving back and forth hardly moving from his spot. Containing a certain area of the stage was helping him out a lot, not just M2K running into nairs. He showed he knew what to do in certain parts of the match up.

His set against DeLux, he played it differently he stayed away from the ice climbers using his up-b and nair to stall in the air until their invincibility wore off so he can get a safe shield poke. He a played very strong air game against the ICs making them chase him while he threw aerials out, and shot them with gyros and lasers if DeLux tried to roll away.

Yes they play on SD, BF and SV a lot, and probably have clocked in a lot of hours, but they also are more focused on winning than anything else. When they play they take each stock as and think about what happen if they die, I noticed it whenever Nietono got killed, he would put his head down wait a bit before dropping down and start to fight again.

All in all we need to work on our pokes, come up with different situations be a bit more creative with our play style if we want to get better. It's nice to adopt certain styles, but mix it in with your own instead of trying to be the same MK you saw on stream or in tourney.

We know the techs, we know what the japanese know cause they post it on their youtube channels all the time but a lot of times we brush them off and say they aren't useful before trying them in tournament or other matches.

Also I think we need to stop theory crafting

[/collapse]

[collapse=Excel]

My theory and then I'm out of here before it becomes a ****storm.

The reason Japan beat us is because they are better at the game from the basics down to the advanced techniques. Because they want to excel with their character and prove themselves to be the best. They don't play for money; as it's considered gambling. They play for respect amongst their community - which means being the best player in your town, city, prefecture and being the best with that character(s). We in America, play for money. Which means after awhile when skill doesn't help us all the way, we have to resort to playing for the W in the least skillful ways possible. Whether it be through planking, timeouts or relying on the stage to carry you to victory.

Stage Choices
Alot of people scoff at their 3 stage list, because "it's not competitive enough" or it's "scrubby". The Japanese don't want anything outside of player skill to determine a victor. Sure, they may have lost on their opponent's CP but when they ran it back to their original stage, mad people got put on blast.

Adapting
The Japanese adapt so much faster than any American player I've played against. It wasn't uncommon for the to get beat game 1 and then proceed to bodybag their opponents games 2 and 3. They adapted in everything from stages to playstyles. Nietono vs Nairo in winner's went something like this: Nairo runs Olimar Match-Up.exe and wins game 1 convincingly with a 2 stock. Nietono proceeds to set-up his download process games 2 and 3. Nietono beats Nairo barely game 2. Nairo goes to Delfino (A CP stage) and proceeds to beat Nietono convincingly again with another 2 stock. They play again in loser's Nietono has him downloaded from their previous match and makes it look absolutely terrible.

Basics and ATs
The Japanese are spot on with everything as far as basics go. From shield pressure to frametraps, they have it all dialed. They learn the usefulness of each and every attack and try to utilize them. How many MKs have you seen use Dimensional Cape the way Otori and Kakera do? Their buffering is unlike anything I've ever seen. Flawless. I was watching Nairo vs Otori with Orion and I'm sure his tech skill with MK is about on par with the Japanese. He pointed out how well Otori buffered everything. Witnessing buffered Shuttle Loop OOS when Nairo SL'd his shield was more than enough for me.

The top level American players have gotten complacent with their skills. They've gotten complacent with being "good enough" to win in their region. So long as they are able to place in the money, they couldn't care less about getting better so long as they don't get worse. So maybe this was the reality check that alot of people needed to see that just because you're a "top level" player that you've still got SOMEONE (whether it be one person or 5), SOMEWHERE who is better than you and working to be better than they were the day before. Sure, this is coming from PNCATMPlayer8675 but it's the truth.

[/collapse]

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

100% agree with this.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Just think about the potential respect the smash scene would get with a ruleset like this. (from other fighters i mean)


i know one of the main things they laugh at smash about is the fact we let stages decide matches and the CP system being "rediculous"

Theres nothing stopping smash from being like a traditional fighter asside from the stages we ALLOW to be played on.

 

[Shadocat]

I like this post alot!!!

10/10!!

 

[-LzR-]

Though I agree with this, removing a lot of stages is pretty much like killing what makes Smash so unique.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Do we care about smash staying "unique"in america? or getting better?

cause im pretty sure items make smash super ****ing "unique" but we get rid of that **** for improving in competative play.

 

[Tommy_G]

Japan beat us even with the gay stages on. It just proves their stage list is better at getting them better at the game. That added skill simply transfers onto different stages.

 

[Fogo]

Agreed. They play smash like a traditional fighting game, so their fundamentals are stronger.

 

[-DR3W-]

I agree with this 100% as well.

I just don't think people would be up for it, unfortunately. I myself am, but Americans don't react to change very well. Even though you basically explained how we lose.

Thanks for making this post Seibrik. Why are you quitting though?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Well im still interested in getting better as a competative player, but i also want to see how i would do if i put the energy i put in smash into other things like school/writing ect...

I still obviously care about smash and the players, so something like this hit me so i had to do my part.

 

[GreenAce]

Frayfafafafray. Hold that ****.

 

[Tommy_G]

Time management would allow you to do all of it, Seibrik. 1.5 hours of each activity per day would do it (not counting time for class)

There are 24 hours in a day. Use them.

I might even get back into the scene for this.

 

[MK26]

1) Your premise is that the Japanese are better at the fundamentals of smash because they restrict their stage list to sv/fd/bf, causing them to focus more on the 'important' things and not gimmicks.

2) Your thought process is that since m2k and other top players play much more than japan's top, they should have more experience and therefore be much better at the game.

3) Ocean and M2k played on 3 stages: Smashville, Delfino, and Battlefield. Ocean won on Smashville and Battlefield, M2k won on Delfino.

With this info, let me provide an alternate hypothesis: Ocean won because he has more practice/experience on smashville and battlefield than m2k does. Not because that practice is more relevant to smash as a whole, but because that practice is relevant to those specific stages. Just because m2k plays more than Ocean overall doesnt necessarily mean he plays more than ocean on smashville or battlefield, because those are two of the three stages that ocean's tourney play are usually restricted to; whereas m2k could be playing on maybe 7 or 8 different stages in a given tourney. So even if he has more practice in general, it's the specific sv/bf practice that could have given ocean the edge.

======

I dont know if ive explained that well enough...

Say you practice 4 hrs/week on each of the neutrals, and 2 hr/week on each of the cps, for 40 hrs/week total

And say i practice 7 hrs/week on only sv, bf, and fd, and nothing on anything else

And lets just say for the sake of argument that amount of practice directly correlates to skill

At first glance, you'd think you have the edge. Basically, you practice twice as much as me total. But when you think about it, the fact that im so focused on just those 3 stages means that i could probably take you if we go to one of them

And if we stage strike to one of those three, either because the neutral list is so restriced that i can force that or because you like those stages too, then i essentially get an advantage two games out of three, which is all i need to win.

======

tl;dr consider the possibility that the cause-effect relationship could be

More practice on specific stages ==> better on those stages

and not

More practice on specific stages ==> better everywhere

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Why would Otori pretty much **** on all of our players, WITHOUT resorting to (from what i saw) a single gay tactic? (timing someone out, sharking/planking)

He sharked to beat Coney in two matches. Kakera scrooged Reflex hardcore, and that's just what I read/heard from them. There might be more.

They DO use counterpick stages at least for teams.

The reason the Japanese are better is because of Japan's network structure. They can play wi-fi as if it was offline, thus allowing even the most average of players to frequently practice with top players from all over the country. Leaving close to no match-up unknown to those players. (knowledge gained in 1 match-up transfers to overall game-play)
They host frequent online tourneys, and because there is never the money issue at all, people take it way more serious than we do. Hell, most of the players here don't even consider wi-fi.

The stage idea makes sense though.

//2cents

 

[Tommy_G]

1) Your premise is that the Japanese are better at the fundamentals of smash because they restrict their stage list to sv/fd/bf, causing them to focus more on the 'important' things and not gimmicks.

2) Your thought process is that since m2k and other top players play much more than japan's top, they should have more experience and therefore be much better at the game.

3) Ocean and M2k played on 3 stages: Smashville, Delfino, and Battlefield. Ocean won on Smashville and Battlefield, M2k won on Delfino.

With this info, let me provide an alternate hypothesis: Ocean won because he has more practice/experience on smashville and battlefield than m2k does. Not because that practice is more relevant to smash as a whole, but because that practice is relevant to those specific stages. Just because m2k plays more than Ocean overall doesnt necessarily mean he plays more than ocean on smashville or battlefield, because those are two of the three stages that ocean's tourney play are usually restricted to; whereas m2k could be playing on maybe 7 or 8 different stages in a given tourney. So even if he has more practice in general, it's the specific sv/bf practice that could have given ocean the edge.

======

I dont know if ive explained that well enough...

Say you practice 4 hrs/week on each of the neutrals, and 2 hr/week on each of the cps, for 40 hrs/week total

And say i practice 7 hrs/week on only sv, bf, and fd, and nothing on anything else

And lets just say for the sake of argument that amount of practice directly correlates to skill

At first glance, you'd think you have the edge. Basically, you practice twice as much as me total. But when you think about it, the fact that im so focused on just those 3 stages means that i could probably take you if we go to one of them

And if we stage strike to one of those three, either because the stage list is so restriced that i can force that or because you like those stages too, then i essentially get an advantage two games out of three, which is all i need to win.

======

tl;dr consider the possibility that the cause-effect relationship could be

More practice on specific stages ==> better on those stages

and not

More practice on specific stages ==> better everywhere

Japan was taken to gay stages at Apex and still destroyed us.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

that might be true, but i honestly believe even with those numbers, m2k with alllll his travels got more practice on those stages as well, just not as focused.

and the reason i believe the people exp is more important, is cause thats the exp. you tap into when you've never played someone before and need to find ways to make consistant reads.

despite m2k's immense amount of ppl exp, ocean still had the edge because he was more accostumed to using his brain in more neutral situations.

 

[Hippieslayer]

TLDR: Japan is better because they rely more on their own skills to carry them to victory, and less on stage gimmicks. As a result they are much more equipped for fighting MK and are able to take down even our "gayest".

Read the whole thing. Of course it's only natural that there's more room for perfecting gameplay when it takes place on a few stages. Any argument against ultimately fails because it typically involves saying that players ''should'' be able to learn several different stages, when in fact, seeing as the human brain does have its limits, they don't. Ultimately this boils down to what they priorities of the american community are.

Personally I think copying Japan in order to be able to beat them because your national pride has been hurt is ****ing gay and that whoever has suddenly changed their mind about metaknight after apex likely should question whether he should voice his opinion at all while wearing a turncoat.

Edit: Also from everything I saw, they hardly destroyed you, it seemed pretty even. I mean Nairo vs Otori could've gone either way. Also want to add that this is a good thread about a topic I think deserves discussion.

 

[Tommy_G]

Edit: Also from everything I saw, they hardly destroyed you, it seemed pretty even. I mean Nairo vs Otori could've gone either way.

They destroyed us throughout the bracket, not just the results.

 

[Lord Chair]

I do not agree with this, other factors make a much bigger difference.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'd argue it goes deeper than just stages... They don't do everything in their power to win, they do everything they can to outplay their opponents. Small, but very important difference. The latter in a community leads to everyone doing everything they can to master spacing, reading, and the like... The former leads to everyone picking Metaknight for the "easy win".

 

[manofgames4555]

I agree with your post. Adopting their rules set is a must! We should do it. Lol! I actually only ever really played on their stages as I have felt the counter pick stages were handicaps to get advantages. Operation Adopt Japan rule set.

 

[KageMurphy]

No CPs would make this game stale, even Japan uses more then 3 stages now in case you're unaware. Apex stage list was perfect.

 

[Allied]

Seibrik i think its more than the stages baby.

nice read

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

there might be more to it, but i know for a fact the stages make for an amazing start.



or a re-start, i should say

 

[Hippieslayer]

I'd argue it goes deeper than just stages... They don't do everything in their power to win, they do everything they can to outplay their opponents. Small, but very important difference. The latter in a community leads to everyone doing everything they can to master spacing, reading, and the like... The former leads to everyone picking Metaknight for the "easy win".

Well you can hardly deny that the stages play a considerable part in it.

Furthermore, this small but very important difference is also part of why they use so few stages to begin with. They aren't interested in winning unless it's done in a certain way, thus they've a narrowed but more perfected metagame.

 

[Delta-cod]

I think as a whole we just need to change our mindset. We should practice more on SV/BF/FD for reasons that have been stated everywhere, but the Apex ruleset was fine for competition imo.

 

[Tommy_G]

The former leads to everyone picking Metaknight for the "easy win".

****ing....hate....you


FD, SV, BF.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Play Smashville, Smashville, Battlefield.

You only go Battlefield if both players agree

 

[Yikarur]

Battlefield is better than Smashville.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Off to America with you.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

"fine for competition"is debatable. the three neutrals are all generally accepted as amazing.


in any case, i'd like to see an IC beat my mk on halberd GL NUB

peirce/esam know wut im talkin bout lol

 

[Allied]

seibrik unrelated but idc because i hate smashboards LOL

i'm gonna **** will next time we play because of you LOL

 

[Marcbri]

He sharked to beat Coney in two matches. Kakera scrooged Reflex hardcore, and that's just what I read/heard from them. There might be more.

They DO use counterpick stages at least for teams.

The reason the Japanese are better is because of Japan's network structure. They can play wi-fi as if it was offline, thus allowing even the most average of players to frequently practice with top players from all over the country. Leaving close to no match-up unknown to those players. (knowledge gained in 1 match-up transfers to overall game-play)
They host frequent online tourneys, and because there is never the money issue at all, people take it way more serious than we do. Hell, most of the players here don't even consider wi-fi.

The stage idea makes sense though.

//2cents

I read about that wifi stuff once, and if it's true they have those kinds of connection is no wonder they can get insane amount of practice over wifi without screwing up their timing.

Also the OP has a pretty good point but I think they may be more reasons as well, such as the wifi one or their mentality after losing games.

 

[Tommy_G]

I read about that wifi stuff once, and if it's true they have those kinds of connection is no wonder they can get insane amount of practice over wifi without screwing up their timing.

Also the OP has a pretty good point but I think they may be more reasons as well, such as the wifi one or their mentality after losing games.

I don't believe their wifi has no delay. I'd have to see it to believe it. Even smash 64 has delay online due to the constant need of data transfer for every frame inputted.

 

[*CT*]

Don't feel like reading most of the thread since I have class, but honestly I think its along the lines of the OP AND the fact that most people don't put in as much time into "training" and trying to get better. I know numerous American players that only play when they go to tournaments.

 

[clowsui]

i played illmatic back in the summer all the way across the pacific using hong kong internet (roughly equivalent to japanese average)

i got better connection playing him than i did playing with some people in the continental US while BEING in the continental US. suffice to say asian internet is ****ing broken

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I don't believe their wifi has no delay. I'd have to see it to believe it. Even smash 64 has delay online due to the constant need of data transfer for every frame inputted.

Nobody is saying that there is no delay, there is just almost no lag. Think: HDTV lag. Their data transfer is much more optimized than the Western societies currently have.

 

[2-DJeff]

Lol really? Seibrik I posted this last night in the pr thread but its just reworded. W.e. though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well you can hardly deny that the stages play a considerable part in it.

Furthermore, this small but very important difference is also part of why they use so few stages to begin with. They aren't interested in winning unless it's done in a certain way, thus they've a narrowed but more perfected metagame.

Exactly; I don't disagree that the stages are a part of it, but instead I feel that the stages are not the cause, but rather a symptom of the cause... If symptom can be used in a positive connotation, anyways.

****ing....hate....you

"Easy Win" was in quotations for a reason. Of course picking MK isn't an easy win. It's not even really much easier than picking any other high tier, especially not at high levels.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Asians, man. Asians.