The SBR wants your help to hack Brawl for a potential project in the future!

[Wind Owl]

Yes, and all you need is an SD card and Twilight Princess.

 

[stingers]

And what of this use of "Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game" that SamuraiPanda mentions? Would this mean that we would need to have the Homebrew Channel on our Wii?

That could be done on-site...

All that you'd need is a TO with an SD card with everything on it. Wouldn't be difficult at all.

Edit: oh right, and Twilight Princess. Still, not very difficult

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, and all you need is an SD card and Twilight Princess.

NTSC or PAL?

 

[Helkulkhamen]

I whole-heartedly approve of the SBR modifying Brawl. I have no hate for the game, but wider balance creates an infinitely more varied and pleasant meta-game. Plus, how many of us have experienced that slow, sinking feeling in our stomachs once we realize our favorite character is doomed to a certain place on the tier list and that it will hardly ever change. With the power to change Brawl, at least there can be hope.

One thing I would like to know, though, are the criteria by which the SBR will go by when balancing characters? Have you guys made a list or something of the sort about this? I trust that you guys in particular know what game elements exist in this game, how they are weighted, and how they combine with each other; however, balancing a game is a tricky process that can easily go very wrong, very fast.

Also, if you do go ahead with this plan, then I hope that you will put forum comments in the proper perspective. After playing MMOs for a good while, I know that the players on the forums are ALWAYS clamoring "buff/nerf class x". When the game designers never listen, things can get bad, but some of the worst changes have come about because they DO take to heart the comments too seriously.

Anyways, I wish good luck to you guys should you decide on this. Balancing a game is a long and perilous road, but one that is DEFINITELY worth taking.

 

[Wind Owl]

NTSC or PAL?

NTSC, obviously. The codes don't even work for PAL.

@ SBR: This is a LOT of frickin' work. These are individual hacks for each and every one of your little tweaks. You would practically have to pay someone to do this, or find someone with nothing else to do with their time, who loves Brawl, AND is also very skilled. Those people are pretty rare.

 

[stingers]

If this seriously gets off the ground, any other option besides the SBR standardizing the changes for each character would be idiocy.

I wouldn't trust the Brawl community at large to solve x+2=4, let alone entrust them with balancing a game as complex as this one.

 

[Xyro77]

play brawl the way it is.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Let me just say that we are all very well versed in how to balance games (and yes, the balancing would be done solely in the SBR). Nerfs should be few and far in between, while buffs should be the norm. Everyone would rather play a high tier character than a mid tier character, right? But I cannot share criteria or anything like that with you guys right now... because there isn't any. We don't even know if this is possible. This thread was NOT made to discuss what/how is being balanced, or the implications of a patch like this. I made this thread because we need help in hacking the game, so we can start trying this project out.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I would probably prefer it if you left almost everyone from say, bottom of mid to top of high almost the same while really focusing on toning down the top tiers and making the bottom tiers better.

If this even happens, that is.

 

[memphischains]

@ panda
it isn't possible

if it were than the developers of said fighting game would have done it

 

[Wind Owl]

Let me just say that we are all very well versed in how to balance games (and yes, the balancing would be done solely in the SBR). Nerfs should be few and far in between, while buffs should be the norm. Everyone would rather play a high tier character than a mid tier character, right? But I cannot share criteria or anything like that with you guys right now... because there isn't any. We don't even know if this is possible. This thread was NOT made to discuss what/how is being balanced, or the implications of a patch like this. I made this thread because we need help in hacking the game, so we can start trying this project out.

I don't think you understand the magnitude of what you're asking. This is hours and hours of work from someone who has put a lot of time into learning how to do this. If this is really what you guys want, you should consider paying someone.

 

[ice-]

That could be done on-site...

All that you'd need is a TO with an SD card with everything on it. Wouldn't be difficult at all.

Edit: oh right, and Twilight Princess. Still, not very difficult

easier than i thought it was but i still have some questions.

1) How do you TO's get the hack?

2) How does every player that would be attending the TO's event get the hack before the event?


I still think that it is not worth the effort to mod a console game, as well as just basically giving up on Brawl. You can't compare a 2d fighting game to an RTS. The only 2d fighting game that had mods done on any major scale was sf series. And that was not a orginzied effort, and was done on the arcades themselves.

 

[Crystanium]

play brawl the way it is.

I'm starting to agree.

Everyone would rather play a high tier character than a mid tier character, right?

It sounds nice, but I've spent my months into getting better with a low-tier character. If I wanted to play high-tier, I would play as Pit or Donkey Kong, my alternative characters.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I don't think you understand the magnitude of what you're asking. This is hours and hours of work from someone who has put a lot of time into learning how to do this. If this is really what you guys want, you should consider paying someone.

This isn't something we're asking a single person to do. We're asking the entire Smash community to help us out with this. If they don't, then it doesn't happen. Simple as that.

 

[•Col•]

I would probably prefer it if you left almost everyone from say, bottom of mid to top of high almost the same while really focusing on toning down the top tiers and making the bottom tiers better.

If this even happens, that is.

I believe it would be easier to buff, rather than nerf a character. You'd only really need to nerf the top tier characters, and a couple of high tier ones, and then buff everyone else... xP

Plus, it'd just be funner if all characters were in high tier. Just imagine if all characters were equal to where Captain Falcon is right now...... Yeah, not so fun... D:

 

[memphischains]

I don't think you understand the magnitude of what you're asking. This is hours and hours of work from someone who has put a lot of time into learning how to do this. If this is really what you guys want, you should consider paying someone.

or playing another game.


does it really make sense to the SBR that they have to consider the possibility of hacking this stupid game? think about it for a logical second.

live above the influence

 

[stingers]

easier than i thought it was but i still have some questions.

1) How do you TO's get the hack?

2) How does every player that would be attending the TO's event get the hack before the event?

1) You just put it on an SD card then transfer it over to the Wii. It's very basic, there's step-by-step tutorials on Smashboards and everything.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199810

2) They don't need it before the event, as I said, it could be done on-site. The TO would just have to go around to every Wii and transfer the stuff over. Probably 5 minutes per Wii, it's very simple. Could be very easily done during the friendlies before the event.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If they pulled this off, we would have the most balanced console fighter ever, in the palm of our hands eventually.

I'm curious about a few things, though. Namely, altering the startup and cooldown frames of an attack. If you wanted to lengthen the lag of an attack, where would you pull these extra frames of animation from? Can't you only work with what's already on the disc? Or can you slow down the animation to compensate for the additional frames? Sounds complicated.

 

[MuBa]

You may never know that MLG may accept this seeing as how they would listen to the SBR for the rules and whatnot.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Okay, this thread is getting way too out of hand. Many people are being idiotic by thinking we don't like Brawl or something. Many of you simply do not understand what we're trying to do with this. So let me put this as simple as possible:


Brawl is awesome the way it is now. We love it. But it could potentially become awesomer if we could balance the game even better than it already is.

So STOP ASSUMING THIS IS BEING DONE BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE BRAWL. This project was started by ME, and I f'ing love Brawl the way it is.

 

[stingers]

If they pulled this off, we would have the most balanced console fighter ever, in the palm of our hands eventually.

I'm curious about a few things, though. Namely, altering the startup and cooldown frames of an attack. If you wanted to lengthen the lag of an attack, where would you pull these extra frames of animation from? Can't you only work with what's already on the disc? Or can you slow down the animation to compensate for the additional frames? Sounds complicated.

Yeah, this is all theory. We need hackers that have experience in this sort of thing to help us out with how to do it...

Something we're pretty low on . Basically, every Hacker on SWF would have to help out for us to even have a chance at this .

Start learning how to hack IMO

 

[memphischains]

lol @ mlg. i forgot all about them

they lost all my respect if they support this

 

[Wind Owl]

They lost all of my respect when they dropped Melee for Brawl.

 

[stingers]

They lost all of my respect when they dropped Melee for Brawl.

They haven't even picked up Brawl yet.

MLG will run Melee events, it'll just take a bit of coaxing...

I mean, there's no logical reason to run 3 different versions of Street Fighter but not run Melee and Brawl. The smash community just isn't very good at multi-tasking, apparently.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Also, we are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.

 

[memphischains]

Okay, this thread is getting way too out of hand. Many people are being idiotic by thinking we don't like Brawl or something. Many of you simply do not understand what we're trying to do with this. So let me put this as simple as possible:


Brawl is awesome the way it is now. We love it. But it could potentially become awesomer if we could balance the game even better than it already is.

So STOP ASSUMING THIS IS BEING DONE BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE BRAWL. This project was started by ME, and I f'ing love Brawl the way it is.

im confused then

Panda Edit: Stop posting this kind of crap, or else you'll get more infractions for spam.

 

[memphischains]

Also, we are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.

you are one confusing animal

 

[MuBa]

If they pulled this off, we would have the most balanced console fighter ever, in the palm of our hands eventually.

I'm curious about a few things, though. Namely, altering the startup and cooldown frames of an attack. If you wanted to lengthen the lag of an attack, where would you pull these extra frames of animation from? Can't you only work with what's already on the disc? Or can you slow down the animation to compensate for the additional frames? Sounds complicated.

This project will take a long time, but it's definitely doable.

With my limited knowledge I can seriously say that in order to lengthen the lag of an attack, what we could do is have the attack start XX frames after the initial input of the button pressed from the controller unless there's a way to slow down a certain animation then increase speed to normal.

Also yes, this project will be complicated.

 

[stingers]

Memphis, answer this:

Would you rather play Melee, or Melee with Sonic in it?

There would be no changes to the core gameplay mechanics at all, but the game would just have 1 more character to mess around with.

 

[•Col•]

Start learning how to hack IMO

Honestly, if this starts up and someone was willing to explain to me how to go about doing it, I wouldn't mind helping at all... xD I think this is a really cool idea... =P

 

[Judge Judy]

This is an interesting idea but I'm curious as to what the SBR's agenda and incentive for this is. This seems very abritary and very unlike the SBR to make a decision/request like this. What is the real reasoning for this? This can't be just a few tournies gone sour or because a few characters dominating the scene right now. My question is why, why?

 

[Metà]

play brawl the way it is.

This is coming from someone who puts arbitrary restrictions on chain-throws/infinites in tournaments...

 

[BEES]

Sonic needs a lot of rebalancing if we're going to go that road.

I would recommend making his D-air auto-cancelable first and foremost. That alone might do it, but I suspect he needs even more buffs. Perhaps make his spindash a solid hit like Jigglypuff's rollout? Increasing the power of that hit the more you charge it (up to six times like in the games) would make it suitable as Sonic's primary finisher. At the moment, he has none.

I would actually nerf Captain Falcon's D-throw, give it less knockback, precisely to make it easier to combo into. And add some serious priority and hitbox area to his Nair.

Fox's reflector has too little range. I would increase it slightly, and shave some frames off his bair and uair.

Falco's dthrow needs fixing. Have it induce slipping so he can't regrab.

Snake's Utilt has too much horizontal range. His neutral A is way too overpowered, shave a lot of % and knockback off it.

Metaknight: the ending lag on that tornado needs to be upped a whole lot. He's top tier without the move anyway.

 

[memphischains]

omfg melee with sonic in it would be so freaking awesome.

lets work on a useful hack and put sonic in melee rather than this crap

 

[memphischains]

Sonic needs a lot of rebalancing if we're going to go that road.

sonic does not need anything. he is PERFECT IN BRAWL THE WAY HE IS.

 

[Crystanium]

Memphis, answer this:

Would you rather play Melee, or Melee with Sonic in it?

I'm not Memphis, but I'd rather prefer Sonic not be in the game at all.

 

[memphischains]

sonic is the ****

 

[Turbo Ether]

This is an interesting idea but I'm curious as to what the SBR's agenda and incentive for this is. This seems very abritary and very unlike the SBR to make a decision/request like this. What is the real reasoning for this? This can't be just a few tournies gone sour or because a few characters dominating the scene right now. My question is why, why?

He told us why as clear as day. To take a great game and make it even better. I don't see why there would be some sort of hidden agenda.

 

[stingers]

omfg melee with sonic in it would be so freaking awesome.

Right, exactly.

When it's something that you find would make the game better, you support hacking the game in order to get it.

SamuraiPanda and the other SBR people feel the same way about this. Balancing the game by changing arbitrary values in the game code is something that would be pretty freaking awesome to most people. You can't really make an argument against this other then "Stop wasting your time with this and play the game like it is.", which is pretty silly, however you basically negated that by admitting that Sonic in Melee would be something you'd like to hack in.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

He told us why as clear as day. To take a great game and make it even better. I don't see why there would be some sort of hidden agenda.

Smart man.