The SkyWorld Legality Discussion -->

[fkacyan]

Yes it is correct that in HYRULE you could survive quite long.. however in SKYWORLD the platforms disappear...

but no one has yet given me reason to believe that any specific characters have a LARGE advantage on this stage...

Sorry, bud, but as you're the one arguing for a banned stage to get unbanned it's your job to prove that no character have a huge advantage on this stage over other characters.

Good luck with that, I'm not sure if you're quite ready for things like 'the burden of proof.'

 

[House M.D.]

let's be clear. even if there were no huge disadvantage for certain characters on skyworld, it should be banned, because it's an unfun stage to play on where the main skill is always hitting techs and that's not what smash is really all about.

mainly, stage is dumb.

 

[slikvik]

Sorry, bud, but as you're the one arguing for a banned stage to get unbanned it's your job to prove that no character have a huge advantage on this stage over other characters.

Good luck with that, I'm not sure if you're quite ready for things like 'the burden of proof.'

Actually, theres no official stage ban list. It's all up to the tournament organizer. Anyway it should be the other way around. A stage must be proven to be ban worthy. Also people supporting this stage have pointed out that

A. you can tech the ceiling
B. you don't have to be in a situation where you can be easily gimped

 

[M.K]

Yes it is correct that in HYRULE you could survive quite long.. however in SKYWORLD the platforms disappear...

but no one has yet given me reason to believe that any specific characters have a LARGE advantage on this stage...

King Dedede gets gimped by reappearing platforms
Tether recoveries get gimped by broken platforms
Mini Death Club on lower level of Skyworld
Damage Dealing recoveries are also gimped if platform is broken before grab animation performed
Bottom platform is easy camping spot.

There are many more, Skyworld is not tournament worthy.

 

[Xyvir]

Yes it is correct that in HYRULE you could survive quite long.. however in SKYWORLD the platforms disappear...

but no one has yet given me reason to believe that any specific characters have a LARGE advantage on this stage...

You have a point. No specific character has an advantage on skyworld, because EVERY CHARACTER is at a major disadvantage. When you die at less than eighty percent because a platformed spawned and owned you, (which happens no matter who you are playing as) then you character is not reaching his/her full potentional, tether or otherwise.

Verdict: BAN

However, some seem to compare this to Lugis Mansion, but that is a terrible comparision. The only similarity is that, well, basically nothing. Luigis Mansion is a decent level, with it's onlly downfal being the annoying, dumb, unbreakable pillars on the bottom (while the top is intact) that eat spam.

Verdict: Fun, no ban.

 

[fkacyan]

Actually, theres no official stage ban list. It's all up to the tournament organizer. Anyway it should be the other way around. A stage must be proven to be ban worthy. Also people supporting this stage have pointed out that

A. you can tech the ceiling
B. you don't have to be in a situation where you can be easily gimped

Sorry, I take the tournaments I've been to more seriously than you, and Skyworld was banned at all of them.

 

[slikvik]

looks at location. ok it makes sense. dmbrandon and inui are extremely quick to ban stages if you haven't noticed. They banned 24 stages total at their recent tournament. i disagreed openly with a lot of their bans, including hanenbrow, onett, norfair, corneria

 

[fkacyan]

looks at location. ok it makes sense. dmbrandon and inui are extremely quick to ban stages if you haven't noticed. They banned 24 stages total at their recent tournament. i disagreed openly with a lot of their bans, including hanenbrow, onett, norfair, corneria

And I agree with all of them...?

Actually, I'm fairly sure Corneria and Onett were counterpicks. Norfair is one of the easiest stages for Pit, MK, Dedede, and any other character with a lot of jumps to infinite stall on by going from edge to edge. Hanenbow is a large stage with a bunch of stupid mechanics that I've never seen anybody ask to counterpick anyways.

99% of requested counterpicks were on neutral stages or undisputed counterpicks, if not 100%. Bringing your personal opinion in is... K? Great, but there's little to no backup for your points.

EDIT: In fact, another tourney I'm going to, TGP, is allowing a grand total of two stages that Montage did not: Norfair and Hanenbow. I wonder why I'm not seeing any of the other 22?

 

[slikvik]

And I agree with all of them...?

Actually, I'm fairly sure Corneria and Onett were counterpicks. Norfair is one of the easiest stages for Pit, MK, Dedede, and any other character with a lot of jumps to infinite stall on by going from edge to edge. Hanenbow is a large stage with a bunch of stupid mechanics that I've never seen anybody ask to counterpick anyways.

99% of requested counterpicks were on neutral stages or undisputed counterpicks, if not 100%. Bringing your personal opinion in is... K? Great, but there's little to no backup for your points.

My fault. Corneria was allowed and Onett was banned.
My point was that the tournament director decided what was banned/counterpicked based on their personal opinion. That was the sole reason for my last post.

Also Dmbrandons rules
" Any attempt at lame *** tactics will result in a warning. Any further attempt at lame *** tactics will result in forfeit.
These tactics include, but are not limited to:
-Stalling under a stage.
-Running away to run the time limit. "

So why ban a stage to prevent possible stalling if the rules clearly don't allow it. This was also brought up by a player(shadow) when spammerer stalled on brinstar. Should brinstar also be banned? Also I've seen Hanenbrow counterpicked but that's irrelevant.

 

[fkacyan]

Spam stalled on Brinstar for all of ten seconds in the last ten seconds of the match. With Jigglypuff. By flying off the ride side of the stage.

Stages that encourage such tactics should obviously be banned. The rule is there so that people who play Sonic don't stall under FD, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat, etc, or endlessly fly under it.

 

[slikvik]

Spam stalled on Brinstar for all of ten seconds in the last ten seconds of the match. With Jigglypuff. By flying off the ride side of the stage.

He was also camping beneath the stage throughout the match which he admitted

Stages that encourage such tactics should obviously be banned. The rule is there so that people who play Sonic don't stall under FD, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat, etc, or endlessly fly under it.

This is true but right now we're getting off track. My belief is that Skyworld should be a counterpick while you think it should be banned. Where do you draw the line?

 

[fkacyan]

He was also camping beneath the stage throughout the match which he admitted



This is true but right now we're getting off track. My belief is that Skyworld should be a counterpick while you think it should be banned. Where do you draw the line?

Normally Skyworld would be on the same level as Brinstar for me, a counterpick. However, the abnormal stage gimps anybody with a tether or linear recovery if the person trying to recover is unlucky enough to be forced to try. As well, it has a 'Cave of Life' which makes it possible to survive long periods of time. It also has a loop, making it possible to infinite stall.

The combination of these factors is what makes it a ban for me.

 

[manhunter098]

I kind of think Skyworld should be legal, but in some cases I dont think it should be. Mostly the deal with recovering, since your opponent can keep you from sweetspotting by just destroying the playform, or you may destroy it trying to recover. Either one is bad. Im fine though with the tech game that goes on there though, since then it becomes a battle of skill and strategy on setting up the level to your own playstyle so you can win the match, which is actually a cool aspect of the level, but the inability to sweetspot and grapple the edges is a problem.

 

[The King]

The whole "it should be banned because it gimps tether/vertical recovery" argument isn't a legitimate argument by itself for banning a stage on the sole basis that it has disadvantages to certain kinds of characters' recoveries. Much for the same reason you can tell a player "don't play a character that can be CG'ed by DDD on walkoff stages/walls", don't pick tether characters on stages with bad recovery options for said characters. If a player wants to stick with one single character, they'd best be prepared and willing to accept the consequences of their character's pitfalls.

The "cave of death" and "loop" of skyworld is also mostly negatable due to their small size, and ability to have the problematic platforms destroyed. The cave on its own also it's very long nor is it tall, so many characters don't have issues removing their opponent from the cave. Add that the platforms are skinny enough to attack through, and that helps balance spacing issues caused by players separating themselves from each other between the platforms.

In my opinion, it could be close to bannable, if only there were anything else substantially wrong with it...but to me, it's just an awkward counterpick stage with advantages/disadvantages to certain characters, much like stages such as Melee's Brinstar and Mute City were (remember how much fun it was to recover as Falcon, Ness, Sheik, etc on Mute City?). Aside from the destructible ledges & platforms, it has a relatively neutral-style layout, with bottom/upper platforms, sided by two mid-platforms, with decent-ranged blast zones to the sides/ceiling/floor of the stage. Not too big, not to small.

And as much as I would personally love to see the stage gone, we owe each stage due process and evaluation; bias towards certain types of characters shouldn't play a big part in it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and as far as the "burden of proof" is concerned, the burden falls on the community and their members to first prove with due evaluation that the stage is Ban-WORTHY, not that the stage is worthy of becoming Un-Banned.

King Out

 

[Wubblez]

I see nothing wrong with it being a counter pick actually. Some characters will be at disadvantages, is that not the point of counter picks?

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

King does have a legitimate point... [like i've been saying this ENTIRE time]

SkyWorld is CLEARLY not a neutral stage, but as a counterpick it is MORE than viable.. Norfair most certainly gives TETHER characters a LARGE advantage > non tethers but that is a legal counterpick... so why can't SkyWorld be...

This stage gives a level of complexity, and strategy to Brawl far greater to that EVER seen from a stage in melee or even the original SSB.

I am going to leave this as a counterpick until something is discovered that makes bricks automatically appear, or somehow the level becomes TOTALLY broken [no pun intended ;p]

No Johns.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...

I don't know. I don't like the fact that it's like the underground of Hyrule Temple. Or the gimps that happnen, kind of like at Termina Bay in Melee. The missing ledge is only temporary, and if it was only for that I would keep it CP. But...I don't know, it has a large combination of bad stuff working for it I guess. I do agree with the King. I'll go with whatever decision is made though.

 

[fkacyan]

This stage gives a level of complexity, and strategy to Brawl far greater to that EVER seen from a stage in melee or even the original SSB.

You've got to be ****ting me.

 

[replicate]

1. pick toon link
2. down air over and over
3. ?????
4. profit

 

[KoalaBear]

You've got to be ****ting me.

he prob is ****ting you lol

 

[Serris]

1. pick R.O.B.
2. down smash over and over
3. ?????
4. profit

Fixed.

This stage is way too unfair to characters with tether recoveries, and R.O.B. is WAY too overpowered here.

Though I could see it being counterpick, I'm agreeing with the banned side, for now.

 

[Spire]

Anything associated with Pit should be banned...

... including Brawl.

 

[House M.D.]

fighting in the cave restricts vertical movement. the way that you fight has to be vastly altered.

when people talk about knowing a stage well, they refer to having knowledge of the exact height of the platforms and how well the spacing of various approaches/techniques works out. skyworld's definite elements, the cave and the breakability of the platforms, are much more problematic/change the way you play.

it's not that the stage offers certain characters huge advantages/disadvantages, it's that the player has to approach the match quite differently, and that may make it worthy of a ban

 

[Andromeda]

I can't count the times I've been spiked by the level, been caught in the "Cave of Life" or acctually been caught under the reappearing floors while recovering.

EDIT: I hate the level, and I think it should be banned, even if I know it doesn't really qualify for that. It will most probably be a counterpick.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

So i'm basically hearing "i hate this stage, but it probably isn't gay enough to be banned"...

MIright?!

 

[RolandBeoulve]

he prob is ****ting you lol

There's a high chance of ****ing going on apparently.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Let me ask you.. what characters have an advantage on this stage > other characters...

ROB, Snake, Pit > every other character with a less forgiving recovery.

 

[Mista Sinista]

This stage should definitely NOT be banned.

lurn2techand/orrecoverkthx

 

[Homelessvagrant]

This stage should definitely NOT be banned.

lurn2techand/orrecoverkthx

Too bad no one can learn how to go through suddenly reappearing platform that gimps characters or pulling out fourth recovery because your third destroyed the nearby platform. If someone knew how to do those techs maybe I'd see skyworld in a new light.

 

[Mista Sinista]

Here's a tip then. When fighting act Skyworld, DON'T RECOVER towards the middle of the bottom section unless you absolutely won't make it back any other way.

I don't get it, if I'm Wolf let's say, I always up b diagonally up hoping I grab a ledge. Or if anything, I'd rather take my chances that that platform will reappear and I'll grab it rather than have one reappear over me and kill me.

I don't think I've ever been gimped by this stage, just play smart.

 

[TehBo49]

Here's a tip then. When fighting act Skyworld, DON'T RECOVER towards the middle of the bottom section unless you absolutely won't make it back any other way.

The problem is: what happens when you get stage spiked & can't recover at all? What happens when the ledge gets destroyed & your opponent is charging up a smash attack?

 

[fkacyan]

This stage should definitely NOT be banned.

lurn2techand/orrecoverkthx

Teching in the cave of life is part of the reason it should be banned.

Thank you for helping our case.

 

[Mista Sinista]

TehBo49 - Then it sucks to be you lol
Thiocyanide - Then you just have to do horizontal attacks


I can totally understand why it would be banned, but at the same time I don't think the obstacles interrupt the match enough to toss it.

 

[fkacyan]

Thiocyanide - Then you just have to do horizontal attacks

Which highly limits the number of characters who can KO here. Oh, wait, I'm sure most Ftilts will kill at upwards of 300%!

So now it gimps character's recovery and we've proven it's far too easy for most characters to have great issues killing here!

Caves of life = Bad.

 

[AAP]

I'm pretty sure some simple strategy negates the cave of life argument,

Camp up top and destroy the top platforms before heading down to the bottom if your opponent is just waiting to have a high damage tech party. the worse you have to worry about is getting back up there to destroy them again.

Eventually your opponent is going realize what you're doing and will be forced to come up top and fight, or you'll be able to KO them on the bottom when the top is destroyed.

My Vote=Counterpick

 

[fkacyan]

I'm pretty sure some simple strategy negates the cave of life argument,

Camp up top and destroy the top platforms before heading down to the bottom if your opponent is just waiting to have a high damage tech party. the worse you have to worry about is getting back up there to destroy them again.

Eventually your opponent is going realize what you're doing and will be forced to come up top and fight, or you'll be able to KO them on the bottom when the top is destroyed.

My Vote=Counterpick

Because your opponent's going to give you time to destroy them the first time.

The same argument can be used in Hyrule - Don't go down there, just wait up top. It's just as bad there.

Caves of life = bad. They should exist at all. You shouldn't have to have a strategy to negate the default aspects of a stage to make it viable.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I'm pretty sure some simple strategy negates the cave of life argument,

Camp up top and destroy the top platforms before heading down to the bottom if your opponent is just waiting to have a high damage tech party. the worse you have to worry about is getting back up there to destroy them again.

Eventually your opponent is going realize what you're doing and will be forced to come up top and fight, or you'll be able to KO them on the bottom when the top is destroyed.

My Vote=Counterpick

But think this way. You know 75m right? well what about the farthest left bottom corner section, you can brawl there and not have to worry about fire balls or monkeys or jacks but that doesn't make the stage any less broke.

And the fact is weaker players who rely on camping aren't going to budge. The game will become waiting game. I know because I played a stupid camper back on Temple in a tourney. He was at a high percentage and didn't want to lose. We sat there for a nice while doing nothing, the game literally stopped.

Edit: oops Thiocyanide, didn't see your post (I practically repeated you) oh well that should only help stress the point I guess

 

[AAP]

its nowhere near like hyrule , once the top platform is gone so is the cave of life. and if he comes up to get you... bingo you're on the top of the stage and its not an issue.

Its not a waiting game , destroy platforms->attack or destroy platforms->lure opponent up top->attack

shouldn't have to use strategy on a stage? what about shadow moses island, i've seen multiple matches where someone would destroy a wall to enable a kill, this isn't much different.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

The best and most viable strategy will be used. A stage that allows you to survive to high percents making the match last that much longer doesn't work well for tournament play. Now theres nothing wrong with sticking to the tried and true strategies but when a level promotes only one successful way to win and an uphill battle for any other (extreme grade in this case) it is passed over for tourney use.

Please go read reasons why stages are banned, such as the melee stage ban standards let me go find that link...


Edit: Cannot find it at the moment>.> Memorial Day going to eat me alot of food...

 

[TehBo49]

@ Mista Sinista: But it's not just me. It happens to a lot of people.

@ AAP: Even if the top platform gets destroyed, characters like ROB can just fly under the stage until it comes back. Which brings up another problem: this stage has several loops that can be exploited.