Posted here for emphasis. Behold the extremes of randomness.
http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-isntthatlucky&prov=ap&type=lgns
- Many 2D fighters have professional tournaments. Yeah that's pretty obvious, but the thing that people forget is that many characters have more than one super move, thus adding in a bit of randomness to what super will be used by your enemy to trash you.
That's not random at all. You opponent is actively filling a super bar, and you can predict when it will be filled. You can predict what supers he will be able to do. You opponent will have full control of what super they use, how quickly they fill their bar, when they use their super, ect.
If anything items are even less random, especially if you have a list of tournament "legal" items to use. Once an opponent picks up and item you KNOW what is going to happen and you can think of a way to avoid it.
It doens't matter. What matters is that they were given an advantage because now they have more options than they did before. They didn't earn that advantage, and it's not fair that you have to deal with it now.
Think of it this way, Ryu has 1 level on his super bar yet he has 2 level 1 supers to choose from. He can either use his Shinkuu Hadouken or his Shinkuu Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku. You have no way of knowing which, and he can use them at anytime so you have to think up a strategy to be able to avoid either one.
Just because
you don't know which one he uses, doesn't mean that your opponent doesn't. It's not random because the player has complete control over it. He has control of how quickly he fills his super bar, he has control of when he uses his special, and he has control of which special he uses.
In Brawl an enemy would pick up an item that spawned randomly yes, but after picking the item up, you know what's going to happen next thus negating a random effect.
It does not negate the random effect. That's because the simple act of accuiring an item has an immediate affect on the match. The sudden increase in the number of options you have has a direct affect on the momenutm of the match. The conditions that you and your opponent were dealing with have now randomly changed. The random effect bleeds into the outcome and makes matches less consistant.
- Super moves can also greatly change the outcome of a match. Take for example Shin Gouki's Shun Goku Satsu. Yes it's a level 3 hyper move, but it's also unblockable and does an insane amount of damage. Think of this scenario: your enemy is Shin Gouki. It's the final round, you with one win, him with one win. You both have about 1/4 of your health left. He does not yet have 3 levels on his super bar, but he's pretty close. Try as you might you still get friggin' stuck in a corner and can only block or maybe even parry. However he leaves you with no openings and as you are stuck in your corner he launches his Shun Goku Satsu. You lose.
And you deserve to lose. He actively filled his super bar, he aggresively pressured you into a corner, and he took advantage of an opening to pull off his special.
That is exceedingly more deadly and game turning than a simple projectile item or even something like a beam sword. Now you can argue that items spawn more than you actually getting all 3 levels on your super bar during a match, but honestly I have seen even simple combos with an ex move (buffed up version or an ordinary special that requires about half of a super bar) mixed in that turned out to be more game turning than someone getting hit by a freakin' freezie.
It doesn't matter that items are less influential than supers. Supers are earned. Items are not.
- You argue that items would give your opponent an unfair advantage that they have not earned, and could possibly even buff their advantage even more. Well I say that's bull****. I mean think about it, if a beam sword spawns next to your opponent it's all good and well that they can PICK IT UP without having any risk, but if you're far enough away what good will it do them?
They pick it up and now have more options than they did before. They were handed more options. That isn't fair.
maybe we should ban all characters will projectiles, and sword users as well. You can also argue that your opponent should not have gotten an advantage in the first place and instead learned to find ways to overcome your characters attributes instead of getting a projectile to counter your projectiles.
Learning a character is earning an advantage. A character's moveset is consistant and controllable. It can be predicted. Item spawns can't.
Well that's just being close minded. I could in turn say that you should learn to overcome the newly gained advantage that your enemy has just gained.
You shouldn't have to overcome that advantage. The opponent should not have recieved that advantage in the first place. They didn't earn the advantage, so you shouldn't have to deal with it.
- Also for people who say that random spawn points are the bane of ever using items in tournaments are just being stubborn. Honestly think about it. Random spawn points make things fair for everyone in terms of having a useful thing pop up next to you.
There is no guarantee that items will spawn next to you as much as your opponent through the match. Tournaments do not have enough matches for this randomness to even itself out. You get gimped once in winners and once in losers and your out. Heck, you may lose to someone that's just plain better than you in winners, but may get knocked out in losers because your opponent kept getting all the items because they kept spawning next to him.
It's the actual usage of the item that is dangerous, and all elements of a random item being used are thrown out the window when you opponent picks up an item since you can visually see what they pick up and what they're holding.
Like I said further up, the randomness doesn't go away because the momentum of the match gets changed as soon as someone aquires more options. Items instantly give you more options, and thus they instantly change the momentum of the match. However, because items are not earned, this change in momentum is not earned nor justified.
- For Sonic telling someone else to test the possible use of items instead of the competitive community: I'm sorry, but that's just plain idiocy. Yeah you guys have tested the possible uses of em for the previous two games. PREVIOUS TWO! Brawl is indeed a NEW GAME with NEW BALANCE and NEW TWEAKS.
The item spawning system has not changed. Items still appear in random intervals. They were banned in melee because they were random->they are still random in brawl->they will be banned in brawl.
I remember when Gouki appeared in Super Turbo Street Fighter he was too cheap. He was miles ahead of any other character in the game and in the hands of a human player he would automatically win. It became a problem of either ban him, or only use him in competitive gameplay. Well as the next installments of the Street Fighter games came and Gouki appeared once again as a playable character did they say, "Psh let someone else test and see if he's OK for play. He was too overpowered in Super Turbo so we don't want to waste time testing him for this NEW game." Instead they tested him, and he was FINE.
That ban was justified because he devolved the metagame. However, in the later instalments, he actually changed. He was no longer miles ahead of the other characters, and thus his ban had to be re-evaluated because he no longer fit the premise by which he was banned.
Items have not changed. Items were banned because they spawn at random times, and they still fit that criteria. They don't need to be re-tested because the previous test still applies here.
Besides it took like what 2 years before the Melee scene went where it did anyway. Now with all pros becoming practically noobs once again with all of their advanced techs gone, why not test items while also looking for new advanced techs huh?
So does logic go away when you switch to a new game? Anything that isn't equally accessible to both players (note, I said players not characters) should be banned. If it appears randomly, then there is no guarantee that it will be equally accessible.
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. By having a list of tournament legal items it IMPROVES the depth of the game by forcing players to develop even more strategies in order to counter different tactics with the addition of items.
But the random nature by which the items appear detracts from the depth of the game, by forcing players to have to react to an advantage that was never worked for. Nobody can plan for an item to spawn right on top of them.
It also causes people to think more DURING battle than when fighting against a character with a predictable movelist, against a human player who's play style can be read after the first match or so.
If you can read their style after the first match then it is their fault for not mixing things up enough. Fighting games are about predicting your opponent, and using the options you have to punish them for being predictable.
Items are not banned for being good or bad. Items are banned for being random. The size of the advantage that they give is insignificant, the only thing that matters is that they unpredictably appear and give one player more options than they had before.
