ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
blargh **** comp
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The Smash Tournament Format is Flawed
- Thread starter Sephi_hatu
- Start date
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I thought Fox's drill shine was banned. Bah my mistake on that.
As I mentioned before the main reasons it was banned was because of the potential idea.
In this case people basically banned it because they thought the potential danger of wobbling would cause some issues during tournaments where someone would make a stink fest about how they should have won when the IC user was at 120%
Persoanlly I don't mind wobbling and I don't find any issue with it or the drill shine since as you said a good player knows how to avoid it or make it extremely difficult for the IC user to pull it off. Many people don't view it that way and I can understand why.
It can get frustrating when you're stuck in an infinite combo or wobbling after you make a small mistake. (granted the IC user has to be lucky too since its tough to set up too)
Testament27
Smash Journeyman
wobbling drill shining and all that jazz are no different from infinites in MVC2, and look at how that 8 yr old game is still a tourny legend
stop *****ing and learn from it.
a good player doesn't get caught in stuff like that.
stop *****ing and learn from it.
a good player doesn't get caught in stuff like that.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
buzz was right, the attention span of this topic is that of a goldfish
different people saying the same thing >_>
to sum this up, this is everyone, me included forcing their opinions on everyone else. AWESOME!
different people saying the same thing >_>
to sum this up, this is everyone, me included forcing their opinions on everyone else. AWESOME!
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I like it when people read my entire post including the last part.
Simply because someone is explaining the reason why something was banned does not necessarily mean they support the ban.
Xenesis
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2002
- Messages
- 299
Capsules can be turned off now, however.
No, only crates can, capsules stay on.
No, it doesn't and DeDeDe can still throw random capsules and other items even if all items are off.
Xenesis
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2002
- Messages
- 299
Capsules cannot be turned off. Items are therefore banned.
AAARGH.
THE CRATE OPTION TURNS OFF ALL CONTAINERS.
If you look at that thread, you'll notice that I was the one who posted that information. Dedede will throw capsules if Items are off, but individually containers are still on.
If you turn off containers, even with items set to high, Dedede will not throw a capsule.
PanzerOceania
Smash Ace
well what do you know, suddenly half the arguments just went out the window.
Same-Move Sammy
Smash Rookie
Haha. So there is no way a barrel can drop on you if you only have the bat, for example, enabled? I kept hearing that containers could not be COMPLETELY controlled.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
More like 1/3.
You forgot the other ones.
Items are random
Items make matches more campy.
The second one isn't so bad, but until that first one goes away...items will be banned.
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
Banana peel: Enough of these get on the stage (about 4-5 on FD), then movement becomes pretty much impossible for all parties without slipping and getting severely punished by powerful moves. Just like all those pesky banned stages.
Smoke Ball: I think I already said something about this.
1. One of these appearing on top of you could grab it instead of performing an attack.
2. This item's presence on the stage can give you a 'nudge' in a certain direction, simply by being close to it.
The bottom line is that this item actually LIMITS your move pool. Why would anyone pick up an item like that? All does is clutter up the stage and annoy you. Yes, I guess you COULD construe it to be tourney legal (it's a stretch because of #1), but even if you could get it to be legal, would you really want to play a smoke ball only tourney? No. Even if you did the majority would be against you.
Mr. Saturn: This item can be used in very quick succession or dropped to help combos. Also, it's a great way to break people's shields. It can cheaply edgeguard some characters (what happens when Ness is hit while he's waiting for the energy ball to come around and hit him?) And they get in the way more than any other item as they move around.
Jimiisama
Smash Apprentice
There's probably no point in posting to an 11 page thread and maybe 2.3 people will read this post, but I'll post it anyway.
The problem with Smash is the argument over how the game is to be played. Since Smash isn't made for competitive playing, we have to make rules to create a competitive environment. I agree that some items aren't that broken, but I think the main argument is that item spawning is random. Okay, so here are some examples of COMPETITIVE fighters that are RANDOM!
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo
The last iteration of the game that started it all. This game is random as balls; it's obviously not as chaotic as Climbers' stage with pokeballs on Very High, but it definitely has ingame-programmed randomness.
Randomness of Super Turbo
-Damage
-Stun meter
-Startup time (up to 3 frames)
-720 motion doesn't always work
-Some combos don't work half the time
-Throw-vs-throw priority
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core
Also a highly competitive game, and surprisingly balanced. There is a certain level of randomness in the game, most notably Zappa and Faust. Zappa's only inherent move is to summon a random ghost, and the ghost he picks determines his moveset. Faust can throw random items (I guess you can compare this to Peach although Peach gets regular turnips 99% of the time).
Just because a game has a level of randomness doesn't mean it doesn't have competitive value. Some items might actually be decent in competitive play. I find it interesting that he compared it to supers; in some games you have super meters that can be used for other things besides supers, so some people don't even use them at all. A good example is Alex in Third Strike; basically pick the SA with the most meter just so you can do EX moves. Alex's supers are okay, but some may argue that his EX moves are way better. So in a game with items, you might decide that Marth's A attacks are far better than a Parasol's. I'm not 100% endorsing items; I just think people are too quick to discredit them. If I had the choice though, I would still say No Items because it would be nice to reduce the randomness of the game as much as possible. If there was an option to turn off ST randomness, I think many players might consider it (then again the game remains unchanged for over a decade.. any change might be considered blasphemy).
The problem with Smash is the argument over how the game is to be played. Since Smash isn't made for competitive playing, we have to make rules to create a competitive environment. I agree that some items aren't that broken, but I think the main argument is that item spawning is random. Okay, so here are some examples of COMPETITIVE fighters that are RANDOM!
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo
The last iteration of the game that started it all. This game is random as balls; it's obviously not as chaotic as Climbers' stage with pokeballs on Very High, but it definitely has ingame-programmed randomness.
Randomness of Super Turbo
-Damage
-Stun meter
-Startup time (up to 3 frames)
-720 motion doesn't always work
-Some combos don't work half the time
-Throw-vs-throw priority
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core
Also a highly competitive game, and surprisingly balanced. There is a certain level of randomness in the game, most notably Zappa and Faust. Zappa's only inherent move is to summon a random ghost, and the ghost he picks determines his moveset. Faust can throw random items (I guess you can compare this to Peach although Peach gets regular turnips 99% of the time).
Just because a game has a level of randomness doesn't mean it doesn't have competitive value. Some items might actually be decent in competitive play. I find it interesting that he compared it to supers; in some games you have super meters that can be used for other things besides supers, so some people don't even use them at all. A good example is Alex in Third Strike; basically pick the SA with the most meter just so you can do EX moves. Alex's supers are okay, but some may argue that his EX moves are way better. So in a game with items, you might decide that Marth's A attacks are far better than a Parasol's. I'm not 100% endorsing items; I just think people are too quick to discredit them. If I had the choice though, I would still say No Items because it would be nice to reduce the randomness of the game as much as possible. If there was an option to turn off ST randomness, I think many players might consider it (then again the game remains unchanged for over a decade.. any change might be considered blasphemy).
Jimiisama
Smash Apprentice
EDIT: Sorry I double posted.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,478
Why force ourselves to deal with random when it can be taken out? Besides, I look forward to 2v2 matches than anything else.
You bring up good points about other games being slightly random but you said it yourself, why deal with randomness you can turn off? There are plenty of other random elements in Smash, mis-fires, Peach's Down B, DeDeDe's Forward B that we already have to deal with, we don't need any more.
KernelColonel
Smash Journeyman
As empassioned as my previous post was, I do believe in keeping an open mind. Oceania has taken careful steps to point out which items should be usable and not gamebreaking, but I think a lot of people have ignored him specifically and gone for the OP's jugular.
The OP has been proven wrong to the point where he has been chased from the thread.
I think it should be pointed out why items, as a whole (including The Three), should be banned in competetive play. Sometimes, it's not the items, it's when and where they appear. One might appear at a crux in a match, forcing a character to pick up an item instead of attacking. One might appear right beside one opponent, giving an automatic advantage.
Specifically, Banana Peels should just pretty much be kept to Diddy Kong. As said somewhere, a field littered with Banana Peels makes for unjust and unfair movement. Think of the proximity mine. BOOM one misstep and you lose the game, and it's clearly not your fault.
The Smoke Ball...I don't know why you'd want it on; I think it's safe to say that the point of playing with it would just be to see pretty colours, and **** Sakurai if he didn't implement enough pretty colours into the stage backgrounds.
Mr. Saturn is a devilish item, as pointless as he appears. It is too easy to pick one up, go beside someone, and throw it about 2.5 times per second. Too much damage racked up, simply because one player has the Saturn instead of the other.
And finally, sometimes, items are just simply unfavorable. Sometimes, people just don't like items. I am one of them.
Seriously, if you can be reasonable instead of flaming/trolling, people can be informed and item-lovers will know why their passions are banned.
The OP has been proven wrong to the point where he has been chased from the thread.
I think it should be pointed out why items, as a whole (including The Three), should be banned in competetive play. Sometimes, it's not the items, it's when and where they appear. One might appear at a crux in a match, forcing a character to pick up an item instead of attacking. One might appear right beside one opponent, giving an automatic advantage.
Specifically, Banana Peels should just pretty much be kept to Diddy Kong. As said somewhere, a field littered with Banana Peels makes for unjust and unfair movement. Think of the proximity mine. BOOM one misstep and you lose the game, and it's clearly not your fault.
The Smoke Ball...I don't know why you'd want it on; I think it's safe to say that the point of playing with it would just be to see pretty colours, and **** Sakurai if he didn't implement enough pretty colours into the stage backgrounds.
Mr. Saturn is a devilish item, as pointless as he appears. It is too easy to pick one up, go beside someone, and throw it about 2.5 times per second. Too much damage racked up, simply because one player has the Saturn instead of the other.
And finally, sometimes, items are just simply unfavorable. Sometimes, people just don't like items. I am one of them.
Seriously, if you can be reasonable instead of flaming/trolling, people can be informed and item-lovers will know why their passions are banned.
My viewpoint on the tournament scene
@ OP
The reason that people play without items and on neutral stages in tournaments is because of the controlled environment it produces. I understand your "super" analogy but with Smash it is way too unpredictable.
The items spawn randomly around the stage, with games that have "supers" etc you actually know when you have one as does your opponent.
Going back to my first idea, that environment creates a game where the players rely solely on their own skill and knowledge of the game without any interferences.
Items create obstacles on the stage that interfere with various aspects of the battle. In Brawl however I can see Final Smashes being used (debatable).
This ties in with the risk->reward idea in the fact that the Smash Ball gives an equal opportunity for both players to obtain it unlike standard items.
There will always be people debating the tournament scene, if it was like you suggested, there would be loads of threads petitioning the rules to be like they are now. In my opinion, the Smash Ball in Brawl is like meeting halfway for both parties.
Flawed? maybe. Perfect? not a chance.
@ OP
The reason that people play without items and on neutral stages in tournaments is because of the controlled environment it produces. I understand your "super" analogy but with Smash it is way too unpredictable.
The items spawn randomly around the stage, with games that have "supers" etc you actually know when you have one as does your opponent.
Going back to my first idea, that environment creates a game where the players rely solely on their own skill and knowledge of the game without any interferences.
Items create obstacles on the stage that interfere with various aspects of the battle. In Brawl however I can see Final Smashes being used (debatable).
This ties in with the risk->reward idea in the fact that the Smash Ball gives an equal opportunity for both players to obtain it unlike standard items.
There will always be people debating the tournament scene, if it was like you suggested, there would be loads of threads petitioning the rules to be like they are now. In my opinion, the Smash Ball in Brawl is like meeting halfway for both parties.
Flawed? maybe. Perfect? not a chance.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
thats because your like every other item lover thats come to defend the use of items with what appears to logic, when is in fact desperation.
.
No they cant, you work for supers by fighting your opponents and when the time is right your strike, a ba-bomb appears at your feat and suddenly you've won the game. Big difference there...
No it dosnt, Pick up>throw>Lugia>Win, the hammer takes more skill than most of.. all of the pokeballs and most of the other items, throwing a home run bat at someone on a edge with low damage can easily kill them. Where is the skill in that? Items take skill yes but a different kind of skill. A skill that is a far lower grade than the other kinds. I was an item player and I was good at it, then after a while I turned off items because I realized how they get in the way and just take the skill out of the game. And THEN I found out about the competitive community. Its not just a competitive scene thing. Its when a smasher grows out of having to rely on items and grows beyond running around hoping that an item will spawn, grows beyond the limited part of the game that is just items and hoping that one will drop and lead to their victory or at least tip the scales in their favor.
Pick up>throw>Lugia>Win... In some cases you may as well be, Unless of course you took out items you referenced. Still taking out all unfair items would be taking out the fun of the items. Whats fun about them is that they are unfair.
Yes it does give you a very distinct advantage and saying the falcon punch is unfair is not only different its friggen stupid, the falcon punch is powerful but its so very slow and gives you more than enough time to dodge it. Items , Exploding capsule Pick up> throw> win. Without the falcon punch wind up. Its similar to getting the knee without warning at high damage, or jiggly's rest.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Again, super moves do NOT = items. and Melee was designed for both ways of playing. Sakurai himself has stated that brawl is about finding your own way to play, all smashes have been designed to be played without items. A developer of sakurai's caliber wouldn't just say, "hey lets have the chaos(items) turn off that this game thrives on without a solid "bare bones" fighter."
"Bare bones smash" as you call is far more technical than your precious item based battles, items make people play like idiots, running around in circles until finally their god-sent items appears and they win the game. Most item smashers are in fact, the worst smashers in the world because they rely on little to no skill to win a match. I don't always play with items, but I do for fun when Im smashing with my friends who don't like turning off items (Or as just about every smash noob calls them.. weapons) Items have a place. And its NOT in tourneys where one ba-bomb or thrown beam sword or capsule can win a game because someone was lucky enough to have one spawn next to them. The object of a tourney CAN NOT be achieved with items on, plain and simple.
I agree , many items could be used in tournament play, but the fact remains that even that small number of items can turn the tide because one player got lucky.
I already addressed this topic.
Yea, it could possibly be, I hope so bad that Every single stage is tournament legal because the limited number of stages in melee just flat out gets boring, And one of the things im looking forward to in brawl is change. No items will be in tournaments, simple as that, they are still just as random and detrimental to the skill of the player, but of course fun.
You seem like just another smasher who didnt like the melee tourney's were run and got to scared of the competitive scene to join in. But You also seem different than the oh too common "Stick-it-to" the competitive smashers that play tourney rules when brawl comes out Noobs that we seem to get EVERY FREAKIN DAY.
I only *****ed aobut the stuff I dont agree with in here.
-Ja ne
Random bombs don't fall in front of your attacks in Street Fighter.
Golden Hammers don't randomly appear in front of a character and let them KO the other player without effort in Street Fighter.
Items cannot be compared to the Supers in Street Fighter, everyone who plays Street Fighter and Smash Bros know this to be true, except you I guess.
Golden Hammers don't randomly appear in front of a character and let them KO the other player without effort in Street Fighter.
Items cannot be compared to the Supers in Street Fighter, everyone who plays Street Fighter and Smash Bros know this to be true, except you I guess.
Do you honestly think after 200+ posts no one has done EXACTLY what you just did? Did you honestly think your post was relevant to the thread any more? I don't want to seem mean, but considering you didn't bother to read the other pages of the thread there was no way your post would mean anything.
Zant3tsuken
Smash Journeyman
Supers are NOT like items. Items are not a reward for earning a certain condition, such as doing moves in Third Strike or doing anything offensive at all in Guilty Gear. They spawn randomly anywhere on the screen.
I've made the case before, where if you were rewarded items from stage generated events (hitting a predictable spawn question block on a stage) then this could be considered skill, as the player has to control the level. IE, they are rewarded for playing well. Not only do they have to beat out the other players attacks, but they have to control more parts of the screen as well.
Random spawn is random spawn. It could spawn next to you, it could spawn next to the other guy. A shell could hit a slope and run into you. You could kick a smart bomb in mid air. A smash ball could appear just as you have been star KO'ed. A smash ball could appear just as the other guy gets his temp invul from respawn. It's not a reward for good, competitive play. It is simply luck.
In short, it's your logic that is flawed.
edit: After the comparison to poker, I thought back to a recent argument like this, and with items, Smash would make a great bookie style betting game with odds for players. I'm sure there are legality issues with that though. The poker and magic card comparison doens't work because they are both about reading people, bluffing and the like. This is how fighting games and no item smash work already. Reading people doesn't help you one bit with item spawn.
I've made the case before, where if you were rewarded items from stage generated events (hitting a predictable spawn question block on a stage) then this could be considered skill, as the player has to control the level. IE, they are rewarded for playing well. Not only do they have to beat out the other players attacks, but they have to control more parts of the screen as well.
Random spawn is random spawn. It could spawn next to you, it could spawn next to the other guy. A shell could hit a slope and run into you. You could kick a smart bomb in mid air. A smash ball could appear just as you have been star KO'ed. A smash ball could appear just as the other guy gets his temp invul from respawn. It's not a reward for good, competitive play. It is simply luck.
In short, it's your logic that is flawed.
edit: After the comparison to poker, I thought back to a recent argument like this, and with items, Smash would make a great bookie style betting game with odds for players. I'm sure there are legality issues with that though. The poker and magic card comparison doens't work because they are both about reading people, bluffing and the like. This is how fighting games and no item smash work already. Reading people doesn't help you one bit with item spawn.
Jimiisama
Smash Apprentice
I guess I didn't think about that. The randomness I listed is probably more comparable to misfires, random bombs, and whatnot than to items. But items do add something unique to Smash, and I would assume it's what originally drew people to the game. I can't say that for myself since I took little interest in the game until I heard about the competitive community that was developing. Since I entered the game way after the competitive scene was established I never really questioned their legality since the decisions for items to be banned was already made, and I simply accepted that this was for the competitive good. I don't claim to 100% understand why items are gamebreaking since I rarely play with them, but here's what I gather:
Randomness
I stated before that a game can have a level of randomness and remain competitive, but it's always good to reduce randomness as much as we can. We ban stages with random hazards, so why not do the same with items? I think items do have set spawn points, which could basically change in the game into "who controls the spawn points".
Brokenness
Some items allow for easy and low percent KO's. You could always ban the obviously broken ones like Pokeballs, but from what I've seen, any thrown item is extremely deadly.
Uniqueness
Characters like Peach, Diddy, Link, etc depend on the ability to pull out items at will. When everyone else has the ability to use items, it diminishes the importance of these abilities. The brokenness of items may also make them favorable over your character's own attacks. I think, in a way this could hurt the uniqueness of the characters. Imagine if Melee tourneys used items; there would be no need to learn pillaring, shine combos, chaingrabs, and any other techniques when you could simply rely on your items. Individual techniques could become reduced to simply "opening games" until the items begin to spawn.
Luck
The fact remains that just because you have an item does not mean you earned it. Gaining an advantage in a match that you didn't earn is possibly the definition of gamebreaking luck. You have to "earn" supers in fighters (refering to OP's comparison to supers). Even in the above Zappa in GG example (a few posts up), you still have to "earn" his ultimate ghost Raoh. There are cases where you may have earned the item you picked up, but I think for the most part they'll just be picked up by being at the right place at the right time.
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
The Nintendo characters brought people to the franchise.
Not items.
Not items.
Jimiisama
Smash Apprentice
Possibly, but I think Nintendo's ability to create a game for casual appeal brought people to the game. Items and dynamic stages bring a certain level of unpredictability and (dare I say it) "fun". Competitive value doesn't always bring in the huge crowds, but making a game for casual fun does. I'm sure everyone has their own reason for liking the game (I myself didn't care much for it until someone showed me the competitive side of it), but I think it's safe to make the assumption that a lot of players are drawn by the unique gameplay (items are a part of that).
Anyway, that wasn't even part of my main argument.
I haven't read anything that wasn't on this current page, so forgive me if I'm restating something that has been stated 100 times before and just ignore my post.
I don't care about items or no items either way, but I just thought I'd mention this.
But I believe items don't just spawn in random locations. In Melee anyway.
They have set spawn points, and a set amount of time between appearing. The time isn't always the same, but there's a window depending on how you set the timing from very low to very high.
So in a way, items are similar to spawn points in FPSs. You can predict where they will appear and be there. In FPSs, you camp the spawn points to kill. In Smash, same basic principle.
Just thought I'd throw my bit in.
I don't care about items or no items either way, but I just thought I'd mention this.
But I believe items don't just spawn in random locations. In Melee anyway.
They have set spawn points, and a set amount of time between appearing. The time isn't always the same, but there's a window depending on how you set the timing from very low to very high.
So in a way, items are similar to spawn points in FPSs. You can predict where they will appear and be there. In FPSs, you camp the spawn points to kill. In Smash, same basic principle.
Just thought I'd throw my bit in.
But in FPS' spawn times are always exactly the same. If its 1 minute 30 seconds it will always be 1 minute 30 seconds. And the Sniper is always going to spawn in the same place every minute and a half. That's not how it works is Smash.
Dude, ever since Smash 64, it does take skill in order to use the items effectively. However, banning them from tournaments is just another way to "even" the playing field. Major reason why items are off is because the items "explode" which "tide" the outcome or become a "pain." Mainly the reason is that the fear of getting KOed by an item is stupid than getting KOed by an opponent. Ha ha, tourneyf- get their no item "neutral" ground game going, but really, if you have skill on evading items as much as using them effectively, then why would you really turn them off.
Long story short: there is a flaw in every scenario. Deal with it!
Long story short: there is a flaw in every scenario. Deal with it!
And item spawning is fairly regular as well. 30 seconds - 1 minute usually.
There is some level of randomness, I will admit, but it's nothing big.
I'm not saying items should come back to smash instantly and unanimously. Such a claim would be stupid at best. But with the new airdodge, item catching physics and better recoveries, it should be looked into. Item edgeguards are ineffective for the most part, item chucking can't dominate, and getting hit with capsule can no longer randomly equal instant death at random.
Not a demand, but an observation. I'm only saying it should be given the benefit of a doubt, rather than using our Melee prejudice against items to stamp out what coulod be a great aspect of tourney play.
timidshadow
Smash Apprentice
Well, items give unfair disadvatages to those who just happent o be next to it at the right time and I believe tournaments should just be your skill in controlling your character.
^^^@tatsuman
After playing Brawl for unknowing amount of hours, I played a lot of matches with items on and so far I find it fair this time around. Item placement isn't much of an advantage as far as I can tell and shows up pretty randomly. Also, each item has a advantage/disadvantage and easily can be knocked out from the opponent as much as being used against an opponent. Hell, I had a fair share of matches when I didn't get the items and the opponent got most of the items and I still made it alive. I still believe that items should be turned on for tournaments or at least have a section to satisfy the middle. However, there is going to be the majority who will believe that skill with character is what matters than skills with items.
After playing Brawl for unknowing amount of hours, I played a lot of matches with items on and so far I find it fair this time around. Item placement isn't much of an advantage as far as I can tell and shows up pretty randomly. Also, each item has a advantage/disadvantage and easily can be knocked out from the opponent as much as being used against an opponent. Hell, I had a fair share of matches when I didn't get the items and the opponent got most of the items and I still made it alive. I still believe that items should be turned on for tournaments or at least have a section to satisfy the middle. However, there is going to be the majority who will believe that skill with character is what matters than skills with items.
Did you turn off any items?^^^@tatsuman
After playing Brawl for unknowing amount of hours, I played a lot of matches with items on and so far I find it fair this time around. Item placement isn't much of an advantage as far as I can tell and shows up pretty randomly. Also, each item has a advantage/disadvantage and easily can be knocked out from the opponent as much as being used against an opponent. Hell, I had a fair share of matches when I didn't get the items and the opponent got most of the items and I still made it alive. I still believe that items should be turned on for tournaments or at least have a section to satisfy the middle. However, there is going to be the majority who will believe that skill with character is what matters than skills with items.
This is crucial. The argument cannot be made with all items on, as Pokeballs, ATs, stars, and many other items are not going to be right for tourneys.
Ever since I got this game, I have not turned off items at all. Hell, I versus a bunch of Melee players and after they got used to the gravity and all, we finally played and seems to be a lot fairer this time around. I did not hear any complaining except that the smash balls throw off the "balance" but that is to be expected. Hell, ended up playing with items that were explosive and smash balls at one point and sure was fun! *yawn* Ya know, I'll be checking into this again today/tomorrow and I'll get an honest input from the guys and see what they have to say.
Edit:
To further elaborate, there are ways to get through the Pokemon and assist trophies as much as using them to your advantage. Item grabbing is easier this time around and can make a combo out of throwing, for example, Pokeball at the opponent 3 times then smash them and then grab the Pokeball again. However, I have to take a look at it further in order to determine if items are suitable or which items are suitable to make a middle ground.
Edit:
To further elaborate, there are ways to get through the Pokemon and assist trophies as much as using them to your advantage. Item grabbing is easier this time around and can make a combo out of throwing, for example, Pokeball at the opponent 3 times then smash them and then grab the Pokeball again. However, I have to take a look at it further in order to determine if items are suitable or which items are suitable to make a middle ground.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
If he missed the point, explain yourself better. Don't just reply with "LOLOL I CAN USE IMAGE MACROS" and not attempt to clarify the situation at all. Maybe then people will take your arguments seriously.
I been trying to reply that for a while now and only one that was successful is that post above which was posted out of frustration. Putting that thought on hold. I'll try again later. I saved my argument on notepad so I'll paste and post when I get back from sleep.