"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[fromundaman]

I think you misunderstand the way a match-up thread works. Match-up threads are meant to measure the chance one character has of winning against another character at optimal levels of play.

As for the rest of what you said, see the edit to my post, for, you're right, I was kind of being an ***.

Edit:

2. We're making ourselves out to be better than you? The fact of the matter is, we have no idea who you are, and you haven't exactly impressed us yet. YOU are the one who has to prove yourself to US, not the other way around.

I think he was talking about me, in which case it's kind of justified, because I was being an ***.

Edit again:

Bring your Ganon, I'll **** him with my Kirby. Bring your Kirby, and my room mate will **** him with his Ganon.

Doesn't that kind of contradict what you were saying before?

 

[phi1ny3]

K, I'm here for lucario discussion, if that's what's going on! (it still looks like kirby though)

 

[Anomilus]

Alright! Lucario time!! I don't want to ramble, 'cause I'm good at that, so I'm gonna just bring up things that came to my mind while battling a Lucario.

- Lucario's FSmash is definitely an annoying issue since it has such horizontal range and is disjointed. Here's one area where spacing really is key. The FSmash is definitely punishable, but it's gotta be predicted for best results. Ganondorf can bait it out, then get Lucario with a Dash attack or Flame Choke. It has to be quick though, or Lucario can spotdodge any retaliation and go on the offensive. Ganon's FAir works here when an FSmash is predicted. Gets him over the attack and puts him in position to break Lucario's skull before he can react.

- Aurasphere is a problem all in itself. Generally, most Ganon users know to prioritize Lucario's uncharged spheres, not to mention his fully charged spheres can be devoured as well with Dash A, Side B, and FSmash up to a certain point. FAir destroys Auraspheres until very high percentages. This is all good, but assuming Lucario decides not to spam the stuff and instead throw 'em out sparingly or save 'em for when Ganon seems most helpless. Expect the spheres, and bait the Lucario into throwing 'em so you can whiff 'em. When knocked off-stage, avoid being predictable with your recovery and getting snuffed..

- I would definitely say Ganon's biggest problem in this match-up is Lucario's air game. Lucario's FAir is very hard to deal with, allowing him to easily come in with various attack strings. Maybe I just failed to come up with the solution. Ideally, Ganon can predict an incoming aerial and hit Lucario out of the air before he gets started. BAir worked here to an extent. Shield-grabbing is also viable since Lucario's so floaty, but he can cross-up Ganondorf pretty easily. Best bet here is to be extra careful about spacing. Lucario tends to approach with a single-hop, so rolling away and putting some distance between him and Ganon may discourage him from continuing his assault.

- As the guides on this board suggested, Lucario is darn tough to control with Flame Choke. Normal get ups work, rolling in works, and I was able to re-grab if my opponent used his GUA (by retreating and coming back), but anything else was quite difficult, including any other attacks.


That's about all I got. Lucario can make it tough for Ganon to hit him while he doesn't have it as hard. Lucario can also gimp Ganon pretty well with an off-stage FAir string. Ganon can still definitely gimp Lucario though. Just watch out for auraspheres. It's hard to take a Lucario out of the air, so wait for him to land, then punish.

Okee, I think this is a good start to this discussion. Anybody please feel free to tell me where I may have gotten some stuff wrong with the match-up or whatever other comments.

 

[MK26]

Verdict on Kirby?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Verdict on Kirby?

Almost neutral, 55-45 at the mo', may change more later as we get deeper into chainchoking.

 

[Browny]

dash attack is pretty much the best move you have in this matchup imo. save it for KO's every time and use its ridiculous priority to break through most of lucarios moves and KO at around 100. Letting Lucario live to high %'s isnt the problem like some people seem to think, its the fact that actually landing a KO move on him is so difficult when his defensive game is so great, hence you take a ton of damage trying to land the killer on him. vs my brothers ganon i find most of my deaths are to dash attack, if that doesnt hit me or it stale, ill generally live well past 120. grounded dairs are probably the next most often move to ko me with :/

 

[Timbers]

- Lucario's FSmash is definitely an annoying issue since it has such horizontal range and is disjointed. Here's one area where spacing really is key. The FSmash is definitely punishable, but it's gotta be predicted for best results. Ganondorf can bait it out, then get Lucario with a Dash attack or Flame Choke. It has to be quick though, or Lucario can spotdodge any retaliation and go on the offensive. Ganon's FAir works here when an FSmash is predicted. Gets him over the attack and puts him in position to break Lucario's skull before he can react.

- Aurasphere is a problem all in itself. Generally, most Ganon users know to prioritize Lucario's uncharged spheres, not to mention his fully charged spheres can be devoured as well with Dash A, Side B, and FSmash up to a certain point. FAir destroys Auraspheres until very high percentages. This is all good, but assuming Lucario decides not to spam the stuff and instead throw 'em out sparingly or save 'em for when Ganon seems most helpless. Expect the spheres, and bait the Lucario into throwing 'em so you can whiff 'em. When knocked off-stage, avoid being predictable with your recovery and getting snuffed..

- I would definitely say Ganon's biggest problem in this match-up is Lucario's air game. Lucario's FAir is very hard to deal with, allowing him to easily come in with various attack strings. Maybe I just failed to come up with the solution. Ideally, Ganon can predict an incoming aerial and hit Lucario out of the air before he gets started. BAir worked here to an extent. Shield-grabbing is also viable since Lucario's so floaty, but he can cross-up Ganondorf pretty easily. Best bet here is to be extra careful about spacing. Lucario tends to approach with a single-hop, so rolling away and putting some distance between him and Ganon may discourage him from continuing his assault.

- As the guides on this board suggested, Lucario is darn tough to control with Flame Choke. Normal get ups work, rolling in works, and I was able to re-grab if my opponent used his GUA (by retreating and coming back), but anything else was quite difficult, including any other attacks.


That's about all I got. Lucario can make it tough for Ganon to hit him while he doesn't have it as hard. Lucario can also gimp Ganon pretty well with an off-stage FAir string. Ganon can still definitely gimp Lucario though. Just watch out for auraspheres. It's hard to take a Lucario out of the air, so wait for him to land, then punish.

Okee, I think this is a good start to this discussion. Anybody please feel free to tell me where I may have gotten some stuff wrong with the match-up or whatever other comments.

I'd have to get my wii back to confirm any of this, but I'm just throwing out these observations/questions until then.

-If Ganon is just out of tipper range (baiting the fsmash) I still think it's pretty impossible for Ganon to punish with dash attack. SideB might work but I'd honestly have to check to agree with this. Does Ganon's shorthop go over Luc's fsmash? Regardless, at fsmash tipper range I don't think Ganon has enough aerial mobility/range to meet Luc's hurtbox with his own fair. This is all from memory, so I'm not necessarily trying to prove anyone wrong at this moment, but even so you're saying that Ganon can bait fsmashes, which isn't necessarily even part of a matchup discussion and considering Ganon has terrible ground speed and lacks any real threatening approach, I highly doubt he can bait an attack any better than other characters of the roster.

-SideB doesn't outprioritize any aurasphere. Fsmash does to a certain point, but no Luc will be that foolish to throw an aurasphere when you're that close to them. Dash attack works in this regard but keep in mind that Luc's aurasphere (when you're on stage) is mainly used to catch landing frames or used in a retreating manner to keep you at bay.

-Ganon..shieldgrabbing Luc's fair? Really no, sorry lol. Luc being floaty is good in this sense. It allows him greater control of the air around him, being able to execute at least two aerials from a shorthop. This much control is pretty much saying that Luc landing that close to Ganon to be shieldgrabbed by one of the poorest grabranges in the game is the Luc players fault, not the character.

Luc's fair does have some neat strings to it. Thing about rolling away from Luc while he's in pursuit can also get you punished with a fastfalled nair. Your best option in this match is to just space him as well as you can while looking for sideB/dash attack/dair openings. Making yourself vulnerable while Luc is on the assault is definitely a bad idea, as Ganon is one of the few characters in this game that actually has a slower CQ game than Luc, making pressure much easier for us in this sense. The only thing Luc should really watch out for is an angled fsmash can snatch him right out of his fair approach, which does hurt. Luc should be the one playing defense in most of this match though, as Ganon is one of the few who can be camped well.

-

 

[Anomilus]

I'd have to get my wii back to confirm any of this, but I'm just throwing out these observations/questions until then.

-If Ganon is just out of tipper range (baiting the fsmash) I still think it's pretty impossible for Ganon to punish with dash attack. SideB might work but I'd honestly have to check to agree with this. Does Ganon's shorthop go over Luc's fsmash? Regardless, at fsmash tipper range I don't think Ganon has enough aerial mobility/range to meet Luc's hurtbox with his own fair. This is all from memory, so I'm not necessarily trying to prove anyone wrong at this moment, but even so you're saying that Ganon can bait fsmashes, which isn't necessarily even part of a matchup discussion and considering Ganon has terrible ground speed and lacks any real threatening approach, I highly doubt he can bait an attack any better than other characters of the roster.

Ganon does have the Instant Dash Attack, and being just out of tipper range also happens to put him in range to hit Lucario. You would have to react quite quickly though, 'cause otherwise Lucario can shield-grab him.

I do agree to the baiting part not really having much relevance in a Match Up. I'll keep that in mind. I guess in my mind stuff like that counts, but yeah that's more Player-to-Player territory. I guess I'll do more testing with Ganon's FAir, but yeah, a short-hopped one wouldn't really go over it, and picturing now I'm not sure a Full Hopped one would reach Lucario in time before he could shield or dodge it.

-SideB doesn't outprioritize any aurasphere. Fsmash does to a certain point, but no Luc will be that foolish to throw an aurasphere when you're that close to them. Dash attack works in this regard but keep in mind that Luc's aurasphere (when you're on stage) is mainly used to catch landing frames or used in a retreating manner to keep you at bay.

Oops, I meant Down B, not Side B.

I wasn't really suggesting FSmash would eat an Aurasphere while the Lucario was that close.

I was insinuating the landing frames thing, but you put it into words better than I did. That won't tend to matter much. Still, when you have a move that can eat Auraspheres at over 140% (FAir), it's something to keep in mind just in case (for example if Ganondorf was descending too closely to the ground to air dodge an incoming Fully-Charged Aurasphere). As for the retreating though, that's where Dash A helps to keep pressure on Lucario and keep him on his toes (not insinuating that Ganon's going to be agressive though).

-Ganon..shieldgrabbing Luc's fair? Really no, sorry lol. Luc being floaty is good in this sense. It allows him greater control of the air around him, being able to execute at least two aerials from a shorthop. This much control is pretty much saying that Luc landing that close to Ganon to be shieldgrabbed by one of the poorest grabranges in the game is the Luc players fault, not the character.

Understood. I'll have to test then how Ganon's Reverse Pivot Grab does in this case, including using it as an OoS option. It's a stretch I would think, but RPGs do extend Ganon's grab quite noteably. Also, FAir isn't the only aerial Lucario would use, which is why I considered shieldgrabbing to be viable. Maybe it was just a situational result during my match, but I grabbed Lucario out of the air when he used a DAir on me. Dunno - could have been the Lucario player.


Well in any case I'll keep looking into this match up. I probably just need to play somebody who's even more adept at using Lucario than the last person. (Works for me, 'cause it also means I get better at my spacing game. =D )

 

[Timbers]

Ganon does have the Instant Dash Attack, and being just out of tipper range also happens to put him in range to hit Lucario. You would have to react quite quickly though, 'cause otherwise Lucario can shield-grab him.

I still do have to find that hard to believe, as Ganon only has a 12 (?) frame window to initiate the dash, and connect with the dash attack. That wouldn't be such a problem but I mean, have you seen the distance Ganon needs to go from outside fsmash range to actually hit Lucario lol.

Understood. I'll have to test then how Ganon's Reverse Pivot Grab does in this case, including using it as an OoS option. It's a stretch I would think, but RPGs do extend Ganon's grab quite noteably. Also, FAir isn't the only aerial Lucario would use, which is why I considered shieldgrabbing to be viable. Maybe it was just a situational result during my match, but I grabbed Lucario out of the air when he used a DAir on me. Dunno - could have been the Lucario player.

I wouldn't put hopes in it really, as Luc's fair will rarely, if ever, be used on descent. Which basically means that Luc has plenty of time to back off unless he's that determined to pressure you with an fair->nair.

That dair would have to be landed really low on your shield to grab it, so it's definitely bad player error than anything.

 

[Clai]

Ray Kalm, I should bring to your attention that you should change the numbers on the Ness matchup on the first page. It's currently at 25-65, which does not add up to 100.

I might put up stuff for Lucario later. It doesn't looks like a good matchup for Ganon, though.

 

[MK26]

Almost neutral, 55-45 at the mo', may change more later as we get deeper into chainchoking.

I'm assuming that's kirby's favour?

 

[Samuelson]

I think that Ganon vs Lucario is REALLY tough for Ganon.

 

[Asdioh]

Ugh, I came to check on the Ganon:Kirby matchup, noticed that the first page is extremely confusing compared to other matchup threads I've seen, and then read 2 pages (40 posts per page) of intense Ganon-Kirby debate and flame wars.

I was originally going to come and say something along the lines of "lol Kirby owns Ganondorf so hard that it's not funny" but now with all this chainchoking stuff, and the intense flame war crap, I'm kinda scared. And then there's the fact that the Ganondorf I played a couple months ago, who I thought was good (his name was Jekyll, I 2-0'd him in pools with ease) apparently WASN'T so good, and I've been underestimating all the Ganondorfs I've played (him offline, and numerous ones online) all this time.

As for chainchoking, I don't see why you guys are saying it's complicated, it seems extremely simplistic to me, and yet very effective if you can manage to pull it off right.
1. Land a side B.
2. Space yourself and wait for Kirby to either stand up, do a "geddup attack", or roll in/out
3. Side B appropriately
4. Repeat.

If this truly is inescapable with good reactions, then ouch. Even if the Kirby just lays there as long as he pleases before doing another action, a good Ganondorf is something to be feared because of this.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Wii here at college to test things out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_W_b2T6oL4
lol my old combo video... 7:17
All he had to do was memorize my animations O________O


Bah, I don't know. I wish I had someone really good with Ganondorf (or any character for that matter but I won't complain here) to play offline. I'd like to see how this stuff plays out in an actual match, when it looks so good on paper.

Coming into this thread, I was confident enough to say that I would be surprised if I couldn't beat a Ganondorf of equal skill in at least 7 of 10 matches. Now, I'm not so sure.

I know you're doing Lucario now but...yeah.

*wants to discuss more but will refrain for now*

 

[phi1ny3]

Just to let you know, fsmash has some IASA frames, not amazing, but good for a smash. Lucario hence has some good options, including another one (only for mindgames), shield, jab, or BAS. Also, like Timbers said, Lucario's usually do rising fairs, and don't use dair as an approach much. Lucario's are also smart about AS, they are either looking for damage and slight stun, or pressure and limiting movement and attack/defense options. That's the advantage of a slower projectile.

 

[Super Joe]

I would recommend that the Ganon should avoid the edges as much as possible even at a low percent. Lucario can chain fairs with the greatest of ease against a heavy like that, and while it won't rack up tons of damage, it has the potential to carry the King of Evil far away enough to risk an early gimp.

 

[G-Beast]

Lucario has an, at least, 40% chaingrab on ganon

 

[Timbers]

no he doesnt it was discovered like 9 months ago that forcepalm grab can be broken easily.

 

[Samuelson]

No he doesn't, it was discovered about 9 months ago that forcepalm chain grab could easily be broken out of.

You had bad grammar so I decided to fix your post.

 

[Timbers]

No he doesn't, it was discovered about 9 months ago that forcepalm chain grab could easily be broken out of.

You had bad grammar so I decided to fix your post.

Not a very good grammar Nazi my good sir.

No he doesn't. It was discovered, about 9 months ago, that forcepalm chain grab could easily be broken.

Good day!



also its like pretty steep advantage in Luc's favor. I won't throw numbers out but anything better than 35:65 for Ganon is pushing it.

 

[Samuelson]

Timbers, I luff you and your douchey ways.

 

[:034:]

Lucario can be a pretty bad match-up. Ganondorf is forced to approach because of the Aura Sphere, he has disjointed hitboxes, uptilt spam to rack damage, and you need to kill him extremely fast since his power goes up as his percentage rises. Lucario is hard to gimp since his up+b can go anyway he wants and he also has a wall cling and jump.

It's probably somewhere up in the 70:30-75:25 range, I never fought a really good Lucario so I'm just going off theory here..

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario has an, at least, 40% chaingrab on ganon

He doesn't have a chaingrab, but you can string after FP to a boat load of damage like about 40%-50%. Yeah, I'd say 75:25, but this is coming too quickly to conclusions. Watch out for lucario's roll (and I don't mean when it is spammed), it is really fast, like able to spot dodge/shield retaliation fast, so mind your spacing with ganon, because lucario can quickly roll behind for a grab/jab/tilt. I'd say DownB gives you some decent protection against AS stuff, just space it right once again otherwise it's going to hurt.

 

[hyperstation]

So, recently when looking on AiB matchmaking chat for match-ups, I've been asking specifically for the match-ups that either I don't know well or are complete **** against Ganon in hopes of learning them better and finding ways to better Ganon's tumult. I ask specifically for people who play these characters in tournaments and get results. One of them happens to be Lucario (no, I haven't managed to land a match with Azen yet, unfortunately). From my experience so far, I have one specific observation and a larger, general one. Responses would be good.

With Lucario, what I'm finding is that it comes down to range. Lucario has mad psychic range, and it severely limits Ganon's options. His side B can get you in a grab or if you don't space correctly, a blast which has pretty disturbing range. It comes out quicker than any of Ganon's moves that can hit from that far away and definitely has better range. AS obviously forces Ganon to approach. Luckily, it's not particularly difficult to avoid, especially if you're wisely CPing something OTHER than FD, but nonetheless, the AS puts up the pressure and you're forced to move in.

I think this is a matchup in which Buffered Dash Canceled Air Dodges (see my vid here, Lucario Mains: http://www.youtube.com/ganonDAD ) into buffered shields or spot dodge -> sliding follow ups MIGHT come in handy. It's exceedingly difficult to test this online though because it is pretty specific movement.

What I'm finding in this match-up is that it's NOT unwinnable. I've been subjecting myself to Yoshi matches a lot, which is widely considered 100-0 or 90-10 against Ganon, and I've been winning those matches too versus tourney level Yoshis. I mention this because I believe in a way, Ganon has to employ a similar mindset against Lucario as he does against Yoshi. Lucario, like Yoshi, doesn't have a particularly strong pressure game (correct me if I'm wrong, Lucario mains). What I found against Yoshi is that if you're exceedingly patient, never forcing ANYTHING, Yoshi may get impatient and try to force the chain grab release, Ganon's Achilles heel which breaks the match-up. In short, you forced HIM to approach, or at least CONSIDER it. The reason I bring this up is because I think that complicating the dynamic of Approacher/Approachee (new words!) makes a lot of difference in the match. It's like in a soccer game. In a 1v1 break away situation, the offender has the ball and the defender, jogging BACKWARDS, is watching his opponents feet waiting for a move. Likewise, the offender is waiting for the defender to make a move and flub it. Whomever of these two players commits preemptively - assuming they're of equal skill - is going to be put on their heels, loose their balance, and likely be beaten.

Ganon can alter the assumed ideas of these harder match-ups in complicating the relationship between the approacher and approachee. Against, say, Samus, this doesn't work, because her long range pressure game is TOO strong. Against Lucario, Yoshi, and maybe a couple others, this is at least something to consider. This doesn't mean that if you just stand there and dodge all the Aura Spheres, eventually Lucario's gonna come rushing in like a fool and let you DAir him to death. I apologize that this rant isn't honed more specifically, but this general observation SEEMED relevant to the Lucario discussion, even if only peripherally/hypothetically. Feel free to rebut anything I said here with which you disagree.

<3 DAD

 

[phi1ny3]

No match is unwinnable. My friend's bowser almost beat Eggz's D3 at a tourney with infinite chaingrabs allowed. He also beat Mooch's d3, but that's another story. More examination later.

 

[Snowstalker]

On a side note, is it just me or is Yoshi being updated now? 85:15 might be a bit much, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Lucario.

Know when to Dash Attack through his **** and by the way, his F-smash and D-smash can be powershielded and punished if you're good, and of course be really freaking good at powershielding Aura Spheres. If he goes in the air, your only hope to compete with him there is pretty much SH-U-air. Yup.

I haven't played a good Lucario though, so I'm not going to give exact matchup numbers. I don't think this matchup is remarkably bad. Of course it's a bad matchup, but I doubt it is greater than 7/3.

 

[phi1ny3]

Vs Lucario.

Know when to Dash Attack through his **** and by the way, his F-smash and D-smash can be powershielded and punished if you're good, and of course be really freaking good at powershielding Aura Spheres. If he goes in the air, your only hope to compete with him there is pretty much SH-U-air. Yup.

I haven't played a good Lucario though, so I'm not going to give exact matchup numbers. I don't think this matchup is remarkably bad. Of course it's a bad matchup, but I doubt it is greater than 7/3.

fsmash has some IASA frames, and only those with crazy fast punishers like MK dash grab and D3 shield grab can punish after a PS'd fsmash, otherwise the lucario will prolly jump after, shield, spotdodge, or jab an incoming attack. Most lucario's also won't use dsmash too often, it is kinda bad in range and lack of lasting hitbox power.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, you need a LOT of balls to punish Lucario with slow people. I think you have like 17 frames or something to punish him from a powershield.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Lucario's range and Sphere have been big problems for me. The aerials are annoying too. Ganondorf does have a few options, but he has to be fast and smart for them to work. This one's all about the Ganon spacing, baiting, and (to some extent) using mindgames effectively.

I'd say it's a 60:40 for Lucario at the absolute best.
At the very worst, it's probably a 75:25 for Lucario.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I need someone to update the chart, in the OP, for me. Anyone willing to?

 

[Timbers]

Yeah, you need a LOT of balls to punish Lucario with slow people. I think you have like 17 frames or something to punish him from a powershield.

Something like that, and I want to say it's impossible for Ganon to punish Lucario at tipper range fsmash. MK dashgrab only has a few frame window to punish it, so I have to find it difficult to believe that Ganon can meet this window as well. You have range on the dash attack but it's not necessarily fast with the late hit. I'm not entirely sure what you can do with the sideB though.

 

[:034:]

Both Dash Attack and Flame Choke come out at frame 12. Enough time to punish from a powershield if it's 17 frames. However, from tipper range... I wouldn't risk it.

 

[Swoops]

Both Dash Attack and Flame Choke come out at frame 12. Enough time to punish from a powershield if it's 17 frames. However, from tipper range... I wouldn't risk it.

DA actually comes out on frame 10, and choke comes out on frame 16. Out of a powershield there is definitely enough time to punish tipper f-smash with a DA. There's no chance for flame choke.

 

[Timbers]

I think you guys are forgetting additional frames of dropping shield and initiating a dash attack/sideB, the dash attack also has to take into account the actual frames of initiating the dash as well.

I'm not denying the likelyhood that it can happen, but if we're just taking frames here then I can't help but assume Luc is safe on block here.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Can't say I've ever had the honour of even playing a human Lucario though I enjoy playing him from time to time myself. But even without that said I find Lucario an absolutely disgusting matchup and somehow manages to have a consistent upperhand on a Ganon through sheer range.

Aura Sphere isn't a big problem, I think what many people don't know about that move is it has absolutely wonky priority. Sometimes it has decent priority sometimes you can punch it head on and outprioritize it, yes even fully charged AS. Its also surprisingly easy to powershield or aerial dodge with 100% accuracy but that may just be from me being used to Lucario.

I have used enough Lucario myself to realize though he has some absolutely disgusting options on Ganon the most lethal and pratical one I've know is simply a FAir chase. The range, knockback, Lucario's floatiness easily lets him chase Ganon off the stage with zero chance for Ganon to react back. This is NOT the same as Puff or Metaknight chasing you off, you can still react to them and retalliate. With Lucario theres just no room to do so as you can't get get away till he retreats in fear of not making it back to the ledge (very rare).

Fsmash is a disgusting edge guard against Ganon, one even remotely small misspace gets Ganon hit by this move before he can even get anywhere near grabbing the ledge.

Force palm chasing is simply a less reliable version of Ganon's chainchoking in chainability but easier to connect as theres more room for error. Don't be intimidated whenever a Lucario player brings this up because they're simply ignoring the other options they have that do matter.

Flame Choke as I recall has no guaranteed followups on a correctly DI'd Lucario besides another FC.

For the most part I recall the only real upside for Ganon is alot of Lucario's moves are punishable due to slightly more cooldown than normal IF you can block or avoid them. However thats far easier said than done since I know his FSmash has IASA frames and I might be forgetting some others. I will also agree with DAD in saying BDC helps greatly in this matchup, BAir thankfully however is one of Dorf's best options here.

Either way the biggest issue for me is simply those stupid aura flames Lucario has which just making getting into Lucario's hurtbox a complete chore. Although this is nowhere near as bad as a Samus matchup I'd say its pretty much the next worse matchup to it.

 

[:034:]

I think you guys are forgetting additional frames of dropping shield and initiating a dash attack/sideB, the dash attack also has to take into account the actual frames of initiating the dash as well.

I'm not denying the likelyhood that it can happen, but if we're just taking frames here then I can't help but assume Luc is safe on block here.

Dropping a shield is 3 frames, I believe. The running frames are accounted for if you use the instant dash attack (run and immediately C-stick). If you powershield it, Ganondorf should be able to punish it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dang, I got my frames messed up?

It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. I make lots of them every day. =P

Dropping a shield is 3 frames, I believe. The running frames are accounted for if you use the instant dash attack (run and immediately C-stick). If you powershield it, Ganondorf should be able to punish it.

Minimum Normal Shield Duration is 3 frames. Shield drop lag is 7 frames. There is no shield drop lag on a powershield.

 

[:034:]

It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. I make lots of them every day. =P

Minimum Normal Shield Duration is 3 frames. Shield drop lag is 7 frames. There is no shield drop lag on a powershield.

Ah, thanks. So, a powershield would take 3 frames, and dash attack comes out at frame 10, making it about 13 frames... Still enough to try and punish if Lucario spaced incorrectly.

 

[Swoops]

I think you guys are forgetting additional frames of dropping shield and initiating a dash attack/sideB, the dash attack also has to take into account the actual frames of initiating the dash as well.

I'm not denying the likelyhood that it can happen, but if we're just taking frames here then I can't help but assume Luc is safe on block here.

No I'm definitely taking it into account . I happen to think that Ganon will rarely be able to punish Lucario at tipper range if the f-smash connects with his shield.

With a powershield though, there really is minimal shield drop frames, and DA should hit in time, even if it is a weak hit. The weakness in lucario's f-smash though is the start up, which is actually one frame more than ours o.o. Ganon's jump may be slow (7 frames) but that start up is more than enough time to react with a spaced f-air at longer ranges and a stomp at closer ones.

That's not to say that it's not a good pressure tool against the dorf in certain places, just that Ganon does not have an extremely tough time punishing it even from tipper range. But yea, if Ganon happens to shield it then it's pretty hard to punish.

 

[Timbers]

Dropping a shield is 3 frames, I believe. The running frames are accounted for if you use the instant dash attack (run and immediately C-stick). If you powershield it, Ganondorf should be able to punish it.

I've been hearing 4 for a while now, but I don't necessarily indulge in exact frame data. I'll just assume it's 3 then, as I don't really care lol.

Also I'm fairly certain that Ganon has to start his dash before the dash attack can be used, otherwise you'd just dsmash. It may only be a few frames, but it's not literally instant, just using DA asap. If someone can actually confirm that, then that'd be cool, but I haven't heard of a character being able to completely substitute their initial dash frames with an attack.

Again I'm not denying it, infact after loading up Brawl for myself and looking at it, Ganon seems very much capable of this. Considering Ganon covers such a large terrain during those 9 frames of startup, he's pretty much guaranteed an initial hit with DA. I definitely didn't expect that, I just assumed late hit. This is all from observation, I wouldn't actually know if Ganon actually had that window to punish, or even if Luc's cooldown is 17 frames for certain.

I'll assume that DA can punish however, and you'll have to forgive me on that, as Ganon play in tourney isn't exactly common to come across.

. Ganon's jump may be slow (7 frames) but that start up is more than enough time to react with a spaced f-air at longer ranges and a stomp at closer ones.

Seems much less likely. Ganon gets fsmashed out of his shorthop, and is pretty much vulnerable during that shorthop as you have to travel such a long distance with it, and then use a laggy move to punish. Also this is just from obversation but it seems like Ganon users tends to use retreating fairs to not abuse the lag, not blindly rush a character with it, as it seems you'd have to actually predict the fsmash to, at best, trade hits with the fsmash.