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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

@HomE

Smash Ace
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we have a Ganon tier list, and anyone who frequents the Ganon boards knows who the knowledgeable Ganons are.

all im saying is we have definitely discussed all the match-ups, and maybe we should try something different.

no apology necessary, and i didnt mean any disrespect in my reply..


EDIT:

Ant, i'm not sure if you have been on these boards all that long, but there are numerous Ganon mains that know almost everything there is to know about Ganon, and if you combine 5 -7 (again rough numbers) of our BEST Ganons knowledge i think that would accurately depict our match-ups..

again we HAVE discussed all this already thats how all these numbers got there....
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
MK, Marth, DDD, Snake, ICs, those come to mind immediately.

Unfortunately, Ganon isn't a very **** character, he's the opposite, a bottom tier character.
Mk is bad but not that bad imo. Ganon punishes too hard and outranges in lots of cases, but i wont get into that argument now, marth is similar to MK.
Snake is not that bad either imo, but again, i would prolly not argue that now.
ICs get dtilt *****, but its still bad iunno.

I know hes bottom tier, i dont think hes underrated at all actually, I just think he really makes matchups wierd cuz at super high levels he gets a little worse because a lot of his game (most of it actually) is capitilizing on mistakes reaaally hard, and lots of times, it depends on whether you get that one gerudos, or read that one MK ftilt, that decides the outcome.
Of course you guys discussed the matchups, I just think that you are very wrong (the ratios, not you in particular)XD
 

SaltyKracka

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Mk is bad but not that bad imo. Ganon punishes too hard and outranges in lots of cases, but i wont get into that argument now, marth is similar to MK.
Snake is not that bad either imo, but again, i would prolly not argue that now.
ICs get dtilt *****, but its still bad iunno.

I know hes bottom tier, i dont think hes underrated at all actually, I just think he really makes matchups wierd cuz at super high levels he gets a little worse because a lot of his game (most of it actually) is capitilizing on mistakes reaaally hard, and lots of times, it depends on whether you get that one gerudos, or read that one MK ftilt, that decides the outcome.
Of course you guys discussed the matchups, I just think that you are very wrong (the ratios, not you in particular)XD
Socks, not to come down on you TOO hard, but there's a reason Ganon is a bottom-tier character. I actually intend to make a topic about this, including why characters like MK are so high because of design flaws, but that's another matter. The reason Ganondorf is a bottom tier character is fourfold. The first is, he has no projectile. This immediately renders him on the offensive, which, in Brawl, is a place you do not want to be. The second is that, being on the offensive, his approach game is, frankly, rather crappy, what with his low speed, short jumps, lack of mobile moves that do not lag, and his size. The third is, of course, his massive, massive lag, and the fact that even when he gets in range, they are easily blocked, easily dodged, only hit once, and do not do enough damage in order to set up guaranteed (or even easy) kills. The fourth and most obvious is, of course, his recovery. Ganon gets gimped. Period. There is not a character in the game who does not get gimped worse than Ganon (other than Link, but even he's got defensive advantages).

MK ***** Ganon because MKs never stop attacking long enough for Ganon to get a hit in edgewise, outrange and outprioritize almost everything Ganon can do, knock Ganon off the stage easily thanks to their overpowered attack angles, and are, of course, the best gimpers in the game.

Similar to MK, Marth ***** Ganon because of his disjointed hitbox, range, aerial defensive game, and gimping.

As for Snake, the reason Snake ***** Ganon is because everything Ganon SHOULD have, Snake has, and better. Power? Snake's utilt/ftilt. Projectiles? Oh, the traps and tricks one can do with nades. Lag? Utilt/ftilt. Recovery? Don't even try to deny it.

As for the ICs, they are rather different than all of the above examples. The reason they **** Ganon is because of an unfortunate confluence of circumstances, such as the ones that render a game between a DK and a DDD unwinnable for the DK. In other words, there is nothing Ganon can do that won't get him grabbed, and once he's grabbed, he dies.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Ant, i'm not sure if you have been on these boards all that long, but there are numerous Ganon mains that know almost everything there is to know about Ganon, and if you combine 5 -7 (again rough numbers) of our BEST Ganons knowledge i think that would accurately depict our match-ups..

again we HAVE discussed all this already thats how all these numbers got there....
I'm more refering to knowing the other character. I would expect the Ganon mains to know just about everything there is to know about Ganon, but how many Ganon mains know about Zap jump? How about Cape Teleport?

I could go through a ton of them, and while I'm sure a number of people will recognize a few of them, I doubt all the knowledgeable mains will recognize them all, or even any one person will. With the more esoteric techs, I think only one or two Ganon mains will know, and these properties are often match-up defining.


That said, if you do the discussion first and THEN have the knowledgable Ganons give estimates, then we should get a more accurate result.


Mk is bad but not that bad imo. Ganon punishes too hard and outranges in lots of cases, but i wont get into that argument now, marth is similar to MK.
Snake is not that bad either imo, but again, i would prolly not argue that now.
ICs get dtilt *****, but its still bad iunno.

I know hes bottom tier, i dont think hes underrated at all actually, I just think he really makes matchups wierd cuz at super high levels he gets a little worse because a lot of his game (most of it actually) is capitilizing on mistakes reaaally hard, and lots of times, it depends on whether you get that one gerudos, or read that one MK ftilt, that decides the outcome.
Of course you guys discussed the matchups, I just think that you are very wrong (the ratios, not you in particular)XD
The thing is, with both MK and Marth, they need to make a BIG mistake to ever be touched by Ganon. Knowing both Marth and Ganondorf extremely well and knowing MK only slightly less, I can tell you that they both can force Ganon to approach very effectively and at the same time, they have the defensive game to punish it very well. MK also has the offensive game to break Ganon after some pressure. If you want, I did some heavy analysis of those two match-ups, if you check earlier in the thread it's very easy to see why they destroy Ganondorf as much as they do.

The only thing we have going for us with Snake is that fullhap nair works, and that's not much.

Overall, I think you're being too leniant, yes he capitalizes on mistakes, the problem is, he need opponents to make BIG ONES to win. And that generally doesn't happen.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Y'know, instead of all that for the second one, you could've just agreed with what I said.
Had written most of it before you responded anyway lol, been going between a couple of things.

Plus, since I'm pretty responsable for the board's consensus on both of the characters I felt obliged to chime in, that and my reasoning is a little different.
 

TP

Smash Master
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I like the idea of, at the end of a discussion, a select panel votes on the number and an average is taken. We should try it.

Marth is not unwinnable. If we were playing on Bridge of Eldin every round, it would be. We're not. I have beaten Marths that I am not hugely better than, mainly thanks to timely tipmans and good use of the stage, even on neutrals.

Who should our next character of discussion be, guys? We have dawdled long enough.
 

adumbrodeus

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I like the idea of, at the end of a discussion, a select panel votes on the number and an average is taken. We should try it.
Yea, we could definitely do that, probably get a more accurate result. We might wanna add some outsiders to the panel too if they're interested.

Marth is not unwinnable. If we were playing on Bridge of Eldin every round, it would be. We're not. I have beaten Marths that I am not hugely better than, mainly thanks to timely tipmans and good use of the stage, even on neutrals.
In the sense that every matchup is ultimately winnable, you're right. But it is a horribly difficult match-up, and the closer the participants get to the top of the metagame the more difficult it becomes.

Who should our next character of discussion be, guys? We have dawdled long enough.
I think working out discussion methodology should probably be done first and this is as good a time as any.
 

TP

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I think working out discussion methodology should probably be done first and this is as good a time as any.
Multitask lol. The sooner we get a discussion going, the sooner we can test the panel method of reaching a number, if we choose to pursue it.
 

SaltyKracka

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Well, considering that we already have numbers up (even though they're very flawed), we might as well go through the ones that stand out as slightly ridiculous first, and adjust them.
 

TP

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I just realized the order the characters appear in on the chart was designed based on the previous tier list. Can anybody edit it to have the correct order?
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
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Here's a question. Ignoring our numbers, what would you guys call an unwinnable matchup? I've heard people call 35-65 unwinnable.
no, 75-25 or worse is unwinnable IMO, i mean, olimar vs marth/luigi/possibly MK is 65-35 yet it is winnable,

and lol, i might quote that post you said before xD
 

Clai

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Well, considering that we already have numbers up (even though they're very flawed), we might as well go through the ones that stand out as slightly ridiculous first, and adjust them.
My consensus is with this. Why do I have the feeling that all of our discussions are going to result in the matchups being worse for Ganon than better?

That's why these numbers are off, right? Because they give Ganon too much? I don't know what the general feeling about Ganon is.
 

@HomE

Smash Ace
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My consensus is with this. Why do I have the feeling that all of our discussions are going to result in the matchups being worse for Ganon than better?

That's why these numbers are off, right? Because they give Ganon too much? I don't know what the general feeling about Ganon is.
Exact opposite of that I believe, we think the match-up #'s are to harsh
 

:034:

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Personally I think there are only few match-ups above 70:30, which are IC, Yoshi and Marth. The rest is either 70:30 or else. MIGHT AS WELL MAKE A COOL LIST

MK: 70:30
Snake: 65:35
Wario: 65:35
Falco: 70:30
Diddy Kong 70:30
King Dedede 70:30
Marth: 75:25
GDub: 60:40... though I haven't played a good Gdub in a long time, it might be 65:35 by now.
Pikachu: 65:35 from what I've heard.
Olimar: 70:30
IC: 80:20 or higher.
R.O.B.: 60:40 or 65:35
Kirby: 60:40
Lucario: 65:35
ZSS: 65:35 or 70:30
Toon Link: 65:35
Pit: 65:35
DK: 60:40
Peach: 70:30 from what I've heard
Luigi: 60:40
Fox: 60:40
Wolf: 65:35
Sonic: 55:45
Sheik: 70:30
Bowser: 55:45
Zelda: 65:35
All of PT's pokemon: NO CLUE
Ike: 65:35
Lucas: ???
Mario: 60:40
Ness: ???
Yoshi: 80:20
Samus: 65:35
Jigglypuff: 65:35
C Falcon: 50:50
Link: 60:40
Ganondorf: 100:0

It's like a cosmic joke that nobody ever plays Ness or Lucas
 

stRIP

Smash Ace
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FD ...

You know it was discovered a few days ago that Yoshis Chainspike on us is not guaranteed?...

Just move away from the stage and use uair to break it ...

FROM WHAT IVE HEARD!
 

TP

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FD ...

You know it was discovered a few days ago that Yoshis Chainspike on us is not guaranteed?...

Just move away from the stage and use uair to break it ...

FROM WHAT IVE HEARD!
Nah, Yoshi is unwinnable. Even if you survive the CG, you'll automatically have RCO to deal with, and he can regrab you during it if he is smart. Throw in egg camping, and you have one helluva struggle on your hands.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
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FD ...

You know it was discovered a few days ago that Yoshis Chainspike on us is not guaranteed?...

Just move away from the stage and use uair to break it ...

FROM WHAT IVE HEARD!
?

If that's true, the match-up is suddenly a very winnable match-up. The spike is what does me in constantly.

Also, egg-camping is so easy to deal with it's not even funny. It's not even COMPARABLE to Falco's short double laser. Seriously, WALK and POWERSHIELD.

But seriously, if the spike part of the CG isn't garanteed, this'll be a MUCH easier match-up. People who hardly use Yoshi just use him to gay me out of a win, three-stocking me because of those spikes...
 

stRIP

Smash Ace
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?

If that's true, the match-up is suddenly a very winnable match-up. The spike is what does me in constantly.

Also, egg-camping is so easy to deal with it's not even funny. It's not even COMPARABLE to Falco's short double laser. Seriously, WALK and POWERSHIELD.

But seriously, if the spike part of the CG isn't garanteed, this'll be a MUCH easier match-up. People who hardly use Yoshi just use him to gay me out of a win, three-stocking me because of those spikes...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236199

It should be on the last pages :<
 

A2ZOMG

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Yoshi should be 6/4 or closer. Inui said it was even without the chaingrab a loooong time ago.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
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Well, Yoshi still has some points. Chaingrabbing still lays a number, especially since it can link into kill moves. Yoshi also has really good aerial mobility and range in the air with bair. Sure, he's no Jigglypuff and he can definitely be outspaced (dtilt) but it can be an annoyance.

I'll have to try out that uair thing and see how it goes after that. 60:40 or 65L35 don't seem too far off.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Yoshi vs Ganon is like 65:35 yoshis favor. Its hard but its completely winnable if the ganon knows the matchup well. I play both.

Yoshi cant deal with ganons dtilt very well except with a back air, so what you wanna do when hes egg camping is try to airdodge in front of him so that you can down tilt at maxish range. SH retreating uairs are nice because yoshi REALLY wants that grab, and you can punish with a side b if he misses, and then do lots of happy followups :)

When hes recovering, bait an airdodge by jumping at him then double jump dairing, works lots of times (at least against yoshis that arent too good/dont know the matchup). Thats kinda how MK gimps yoshi except ganon only needs on dair and yoshis down :)

Dont full hop nair ever when hes on the ground, yoshi can grab you on landing.
Dont approach with dair, yoshi can just bair you and then get a lil combo out of that.

Fun fact: If a yoshi is getting aggressive with uair, down b :)

Flying dutchman, just play super safe and bait grabs, thats the basis of ganons side of the matchup.
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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You can't bait the grab if the Yoshi is forcing you to approach.

That's the inherent problem with Ganondorf's matchups... if he has to approach he pretty much loses... and anyone with a projectile can force you to approach. It's easy enough to powershield, but it's a lot easier to just press B.
 

TP

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Fortunately for me, I live in the Midwest. Here we always stage strike, usually with 7 starters: the obvious 4, Lylat, PS1, and either Halberd of Castle Siege. Since I get to strike any 3 of them, I can avoid camping before the match even begins, to an extent. You guys should move here for your own sake.
 
D

Deleted member

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You can't bait the grab if the Yoshi is forcing you to approach.

That's the inherent problem with Ganondorf's matchups... if he has to approach he pretty much loses... and anyone with a projectile can force you to approach. It's easy enough to powershield, but it's a lot easier to just press B.
Sure you can, you dont bait the grab from across the stage.
You are mid range, if he eggs you power shield and punish or shad to jab.
If you are just hopping around mid range, yoshi is gonna have to actually fight you with aerials, and then its a fight. Yoshis combos and approaches better, but ganon has more priority in general and better pokes (and yoshi gets poked badly). Both punish eachother really hard, yoshi punishes a little harder(i think the cg to spike works if its buffered, not sure).

Dont get me wrong, its a hard matchup for ganon, but its certainly not unwinnable.
Try playing yoshi some and maybe playing against some ganon players to see what gives you trouble.
 

PhantomX

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The problem is that Ganon's airdodge and quick punishers really aren't that good, plus you guys have DR egg throw to further complicate things.

And nothing is unwinnable. If you're clearly better than your opponent (and/or the IC can't CG), you can fight against anyone.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The problem is that Ganon's airdodge and quick punishers really aren't that good, plus you guys have DR egg throw to further complicate things.

And nothing is unwinnable. If you're clearly better than your opponent (and/or the IC can't CG), you can fight against anyone.
DR egg throw?
If you mean egg toss slide (which does not involve DR, but is a slidy thing), yes we do, but that doesnt complicate things much besides make it a little trickier to get inside

Unwinnable at an even level i mean. If both players both know the matchup and are at the same skill level, the ganon can still win imo.

Play really patiently, you are in no rush to get inside, ganon can easily out do yoshi in damage with one mistake by the yoshi.
Yea its a bad matchup, im telling you guys how from my experience as a yoshi+ganon player, and a little theorycraft of what i know about both characters, how to play it best.

Take what you will of it.
 

TP

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Ugh. We always talk about exciting stuff we are gonna do, and then laziness shows up and defeats us as easy as a campy Falco does. Can we keep the discussion on changing the numbers/methodology alive until someone actually does something about it? Are we doing the panel thing or not?
 
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