"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[A2ZOMG]

Pit is stupid. His projectile game is very hard to react to. His recovery is hard for Ganondorf to punish especially since he can plank. His F-smash and D-smash are disjointed and stupid.

Basically the entire matchup, you will be focussing on getting within D-tilting range, since this is his blind spot. He can only cover this area immediately with his Forward-B, which is a risky move due to its commitment (can be outprioritized by a few of your moves too keep in mind).

Dash Attack and Wizkick clank with Arrows laglessly, which is helpful sometimes since PSing his projectiles on reaction can be tricky.

Either way, the matchup is really stupid due to his F-smash and D-smash alone (aside from his hard to PS projectiles). They have pretty good range/damage/knockback and come out fast. Also if you misspace a D-tilt, he can just hit your foot, which is gay of course.

7/3 Pit I guess. Pit as far as I'm concerned for this matchup handles like a significantly better Lucas (more range, MUCH better projectiles, more reliable KO methods). I don't get why you guys think Lucas is horrible for Ganon though...

 

[:034:]

I fought against a moderate Pit player once, he wasn't good though. His spacing was messed up, I managed to shieldgrab him multiple times... However, I feel that Pit is a hard match-up if his spacing is good. Dtilt is your absolute and total god in this match, it outranges practically everything (well spaced fair not included).

The arrows are very tricky and covers a wide area. Consider all of the stage that is not near Pit a 'danger zone', where you will get hit endlessly. Off stage, Pit can just fly circles around you and make it back. It's hard to KO Pit.

I feel that Pit, even though being difficult, is still a bareable match-up for Ganondorf. It shouldn't be harder than a good Snake (ffffffffff)

 

[SaltyKracka]

One thing to know about Pit is that whenever possible, once you have knocked him off stage, watch to see if he is going high or low for his recovery. If he's going high, just do the normal things that you do for juggles. If he's going low, that's when it gets complicated. If you see he's going low, the first thing you should do is grab the ledge, and then go from there. Since Pit's jumps don't do much vertically, he's going to have to Up-B one of two ways. Either he's going to go for the ledge you're on, and try to make it past you onto the stage, or he's going to try to go under the stage. Of course, should he try to go past you, a ledgedropped tipman will quickly gimp him. Much the same goes for attempting to go under the stage, but in that case, you're probably just better off getting up and running over to the other ledge.

Just my two cents.

 

[ul7r05]

Should I give my 2 cents?

 

[ul7r05]

Pit as far as I'm concerned for this matchup handles like a significantly better Lucas (more range, MUCH better projectiles, more reliable KO methods). I don't get why you guys think Lucas is horrible for Ganon though...

~sigh~ Doesn't Pit only have 1 projectile?

 

[SaltyKracka]

~sigh~ Doesn't Pit only have 1 projectile?

Doesn't Falco have a better projectile than Link?

 

[ul7r05]

lol, you know what? I think it's better if I don't contribute information at all. I mean who am I anyway right?

 

[SaltyKracka]

lol, you know what? I think it's better if I don't contribute information at all. I mean who am I anyway right?

You're somebody who needs to learn, that's who. We all start out asking stupid questions. You're no different.

 

[Noobicidal]

lol, you know what? I think it's better if I don't contribute information at all. I mean who am I anyway right?

Just stick to match ups that you're knowledgeable about. I refrained from posting any information on the current topic due to lack of experience in it.

 

[TP]

I was a complete noob when I first got here. The key to your first month or two on the board is posting little, reading much. That's just the way it is. Don't worry about it, though. You being wrong leaves no negative feelings for us. Don't get discouraged, but don't expect to be "helpful" for awhile either.

 

[:034:]

One thing to know about Pit is that whenever possible, once you have knocked him off stage, watch to see if he is going high or low for his recovery. If he's going high, just do the normal things that you do for juggles. If he's going low, that's when it gets complicated. If you see he's going low, the first thing you should do is grab the ledge, and then go from there. Since Pit's jumps don't do much vertically, he's going to have to Up-B one of two ways. Either he's going to go for the ledge you're on, and try to make it past you onto the stage, or he's going to try to go under the stage. Of course, should he try to go past you, a ledgedropped tipman will quickly gimp him. Much the same goes for attempting to go under the stage, but in that case, you're probably just better off getting up and running over to the other ledge.

Just my two cents.

So, if that's the case - why would Pit ever recover low if he has the much safer option of recovering high up?



(I remember being a noob before the game came out. Yes I've been on the Ganon boards when the game was released in Japan, and we didn't know how bad Ganon was. :V)

 

[A2ZOMG]

~sigh~ Doesn't Pit only have 1 projectile?

1 very good projectile >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 sucky projectiles.

Pit's projectile spams at a much faster rate, starts up and travels faster, has way less commitment, is able to cover more angles, is significantly less laggy, and in general makes Pit plain better at camping than Lucas. His projectile game is also much better at gimping Ganondorf too, and then he has other stupid stuff he can do offstage like Mirror Shield, f-air, B-air, etc. Oh and his aerials actually can kill, unlike Lucas's.

But anyhow my point is that Lucas isn't a terrible matchup for Ganondorf. Pit however is a terrible matchup.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So, if that's the case - why would Pit ever recover low if he has the much safer option of recovering high up?



(I remember being a noob before the game came out. Yes I've been on the Ganon boards when the game was released in Japan, and we didn't know how bad Ganon was. :V)

Because the weight of Ganon's manliness forces him downwards. Also, I was merely listing scenarios. Most people know that it's generally better to recover high if possible, stick around ledge level if you can't, and go low if you can't even do that.

 

[ul7r05]

No, I just think it's better that I don't contribute at all. Anyway, I'm done here with the Ganondorf community, apparently it's for experienced professionals only, never mind newcomers and their "stupid" questions. I'll just read the suggestions you have, and use it to my advantage. I just wish that everybody was open-minded and not closed off, due to the fact that I'm "new." I realized why I never posted in forums from the beginning. Well, I tried to do something new and maybe it's better that I play the game and not get involved with discussions that I have "no experience in." Thanks.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Are you getting the point that we're not putting you down? Everybody starts out as a newb. I know I sure as hell did. >_> Stick around, we can always use more people around here. If it takes time to grow, why not see where it'll lead you?

 

[:034:]

Because the weight of Ganon's manliness forces him downwards. Also, I was merely listing scenarios. Most people know that it's generally better to recover high if possible, stick around ledge level if you can't, and go low if you can't even do that.

That's true, there's the possibility. Most players would probably prefer to recover high up though.

No, I just think it's better that I don't contribute at all. Anyway, I'm done here with the Ganondorf community, apparently it's for experienced professionals only, never mind newcomers and their "stupid" questions. I'll just read the suggestions you have, and use it to my advantage. I just wish that everybody was open-minded and not closed off, due to the fact that I'm "new." I realized why I never posted in forums from the beginning. Well, I tried to do something new and maybe it's better that I play the game and not get involved with discussions that I have "no experience in." Thanks.

Okay, bye.

 

[Noobicidal]

Anyway, I'm done here with the Ganondorf community, apparently it's for experienced professionals only, never mind newcomers and their "stupid" questions.

We have a Q&A thread JUST for that purpose; to ask and answer questions, regardless of how "stupid" they might be.

"Experienced professionals" wouldn't use Ganon in the first place, and this board is extremely chill compared to the likes of the other boards. There's probably more elitism in the JIGGLYPUFF board compared to here, and we all know how srs Jiggs is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, I just think it's better that I don't contribute at all. Anyway, I'm done here with the Ganondorf community, apparently it's for experienced professionals only, never mind newcomers and their "stupid" questions. I'll just read the suggestions you have, and use it to my advantage. I just wish that everybody was open-minded and not closed off, due to the fact that I'm "new." I realized why I never posted in forums from the beginning. Well, I tried to do something new and maybe it's better that I play the game and not get involved with discussions that I have "no experience in." Thanks.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Just because I'm very certain about my knowledge of this game doesn't make me an "experienced professional". If anything, I'm a mediocre player in the big picture of things. =P

Stick around some more man, post some vids, and don't worry, we'll come to love you too.

Every opinion is appreciated...honestly. I mean seriously, where would the discussion be if nobody disagreed? XD

That still doesn't stop me from trying to be smarter than everyone else. =P

 

[Moblin]

psh. I'm way more annoying than anyone else will ever be.


on Ganon boards

 

[ul7r05]

Yeah, screw it, I love this community, plus I think I was overreacting. Most of the other boards are pretty bad. Ganondorf is my main, so I guess sticking around could be beneficial.

 

[Noobicidal]

Yeah, screw it, I love this community, plus I think I was overreacting. Most of the other boards are pretty bad. Ganondorf is my main, so I guess sticking around could be beneficial.

That's the spirit! Just lurk a bit more, read our guides and stickies, and post questions when needed in the Q&A thread.

Alright, now I think we can go back to Pit discussion. Has anyone contacted the Pit boards yet? If not, I'll gladly do so.

 

[SaltyKracka]

You can do that, but I don't think they'll contribute much. The Pit boards are about as bad and dead as any I've ever seen.

 

[Noobicidal]

You can do that, but I don't think they'll contribute much. The Pit boards are about as bad and dead as any I've ever seen.

Eh, the Jiggs are dead too, but we'll gladly help out a MU discussion if someone takes the time to ask us.



Edit: I've contacted their boards.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Since I didn't post a ratio before, 65-35 Lucas' advantage.

I can explain why if prompted, but I think it's pretty much the concensus anyway...


So Pit, I'll post more on this match-up probably later today, but it's bad.

 

[Coffee™]

There isn't really much else to be said about the matchup. Pit's gonna camp Ganon all day and he has better up close options that he does. I haven't seen his CG mentioned anywhere on here so I'll just point out Pit can cg Ganon 0-40 with Fthrow or 0-34 with Fthrow which he can then follow up with Fsmash for a total of 53% or something like that. It's probably 70:30 his favor.

 

[ul7r05]

There isn't really much else to be said about the matchup. Pit's gonna camp Ganon all day and he has better up close options that he does. I haven't seen his CG mentioned anywhere on here so I'll just point out Pit can cg Ganon 0-40 with Fthrow or 0-34 with Fthrow which he can then follow up with Fsmash for a total of 53% or something like that. It's probably 70:30 his favor.

Yeah, that CG is pretty hard on Gannon. I really wish there were ways of getting out of cg's. I guess the best option is an unpredictable approach. I'm going with 70/30 Pit's favor, as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nobody agrees with my opinion of the Lucas matchup. =/

But anyhow vs Pit just sucks. Unless you're Koskinator. =P

 

[A1lion835]

The Kirby boards are discussing Ganondorf! Any help with the discussion would be appreciated.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236395

 

[Swoops]

Nobody agrees with my opinion of the Lucas matchup. =/

But anyhow vs Pit just sucks. Unless you're Koskinator. =P

Lol, I actually completely agree with you on the the Lucas match up. I think Ganon has the range to completely outclass Lucas if spaced properly. To actually get somewhat decent strings on Ganon and relatively good damage (not relative to Ganon of course,) Lucas will have to get in close, which will be hard against a good Ganon.

You could say that the Ganon has to work his way inside first due to PK fire, but let's be honest, Pk fire isn't that great of a projectile to lock Ganon down all that much. One powershield to DA punish = Lucas being a little more conservative with his PK fire use. It doesn't help much either that all of his kill moves are practically as punishable as Ganondorf's (I actually just looked, Lucas' most reliable KO move, F-smash so I believe, ends one frame after Ganon's f-smash does.) I know a good Lucas won't be throwing out KO moves, but seeing as how all of his KO moves can be punished by a flame choke, it doesn't bode well for him.

 

[thexsunrosered]

It doesn't help much either that all of his kill moves are practically as punishable as Ganondorf's (I actually just looked, Lucas' most reliable KO move, F-smash so I believe, ends one frame after Ganon's f-smash does.)

Even though their gross move time is about the same, Lucas' comes out quicker and ends laggier, while Ganons come out slower and ends quicker, making imo Lucas' better.

Anyway, I've never played a good pit so its all you guys right now o.o

 

[Swoops]

Even though their gross move time is about the same, Lucas' comes out quicker and ends laggier, while Ganons come out slower and ends quicker, making imo Lucas' better.

It doesn't necessarily make it better, it's just a trade off. But you're talking about Ganon who is strictly a punishment character. Maybe in the span of all the character match ups f-smash is better move than Ganon's (I don't know why I am debating which is better, I was just making a point that Lucas' f-smash is pretty **** laggy,) but when you're playing a Ganon, a character who punishes mistakes with crazy god like damage and knockback...it's dangerous when your most reliable kill move is grossly punishable.

 

[weinner]

I've never played a good Pit. But my friend uses Pit and he is ANNOYING. He just arrow spams, goes under FD and arrow spams again. Pit can do what ever he wants.

That's about all I can contribute to this match-up.

 

[ul7r05]

Yeah Pit comes off as the type of character, (IMO) well move-set wise, as a person who keeps their opponent(s) at bay with his projectile, and has annoying multi-hit moves up close that keep you, as the opponent, DIing away from him. So usually, that puts you back to square 1 which is getting around the arrows. I've played some pretty decent Pit players, and usually that approach or way of playing seems to fit that move-set. I think he's got a few K.O. moves, but not too many. I usually end up getting so much damage dealt fighting on the inside, that it doesn't matter what move he uses to K.O. me. I guess the main things that work for me pretty well is the D-air in close dodge battles (also OoS), Flame Choke (I think this move, if used properly with good analogy and metagame is the best move he has), U-air, D-tilts for spacing, and U-smash for mind games (due to ISAI). Remember, close range is your only option for Ganon, so pick your moves wisely, and have patience.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What are we getting here? 30:70, 25:75?

 

[:034:]

30:70 sounds good to me.

 

[stRIP]

30:70 sounds good to me.

samez0rs herz0rs

 

[Clai]

Pit is the least manly character in Brawl. Any man that goes out and uses Pit in tournaments deserves to get punched in the face so they can taste what true manliness cooks up for them. I seriously don't know how you can main Pit and have dignity, his down-taunt pretty much destroys every counter-argument Pit mains have for using him. It's just too much.

Pit isn't a real high-tier character because he gets zoned pretty badly- any character that has appropriate speed and range can simply box Pit in and remove all of his safe options. Ganon.... is slow. Pit can fire arrows at Ganon all day long and he really can't do anything about it. Even if Ganon powershields every single arrow, which is extremely unlikely due to the speed of the arrows and Pit's ability to hold them indefinately, Ganon doesn't have any attacks that are fast enough to effectively box Pit in. Pit's F-smash is disgustingly (compared to anything Ganon can do) fast and disjointed, he can essentially just spam that move and Ganon won't be able to safely get inside. It's almost too easy to gimp Ganon with Pit, due to his arrows and mirror shield nonsense, and Ganon doesn't have any area where he can beat Pit in the air. Then there's the chaingrab, which is going to rack up damage quick and easy.

Ganon's only hope is to get a stage with platforms and platform shark the hell out of Pit. That will take away his arrow advantage and with Ganon's fast aerials Pit won't be able to punish platform sharking easily. It's pretty much the way to zone Pit, since nothing else is going to work, as long as the Pit player is playing smartly.

For a ratio, it's at most 25-75, but I can easily see it going into 20-80. Arrows and f-smash just **** Ganon so hard, even newbs with significanly less skill can pull it off.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I see a 70-30 about, he just forces ganon too approach, and we all know what happens when Ganon is forced to approach. His disjoint provides him with too much of a defensive game, and we really don't have a way to properly zone him.


Yea, panelists please.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright, we're moving on to Peach.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach...65/35.

This matchup is basically the same as the ROB matchup. Her camping isn't really the number one threat. It's her plethora of safe pokes. You can outprioritze her and KO her early. Yeah.

F-air is a valuable asset, and an annoying liability in this matchup. F-air is able to outspace EVERYTHING Peach does, and will make her think twice about her approach. However, you'll get punished pretty hard for whiffing it. The better you can space F-air (not to mention U-air, B-air, and U-smash), the better you will do in this matchup.

Predicting when she jumps and punishing is very key in this matchup. Ganondorf is a little bit slow to do this effectively, but it's important to know that Peach rarely ever does aerials on the first frame possible.