"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Superspright]

You obviously haven't played a sheik who can lock you in the chain yet. You can be locked, and **** your DI--it won't work until about 80%.

If you played a sheik who knew the matchup as intimately as you did--you would lose so fast you would have to put the controller down from celerity induced vertigo.

But, you probably already knew that.

I have never been successfully shield camped either--I go for the WK if I can. But, I think if a Sheik was TRULY dedicated...it's a hopeless match.

 

[smashkng]

If Sheik's chain stalling is allowed, it's like MK's infinite cape would also be allowed. Chain is a form of stalling. Against Ganon it should be banned.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Except I have seriously not had a single Sheik successfully chaincamp my Ganondorf.

Thus logically speaking with both cases considered, the matchup is 95/5, not 100/0.

If it's broken enough to be considered stalling, it will be banned, and if it is allowed under the circumstance no Sheik player has perfected it for competitive play, this doesn't warrant the matchup vs Ganondorf being 100/0.

It's unwinnable not because of chaincamping anyway. It's unwinnable due to Ganondorf lacking the tools to deal with Sheik's pressure, juggling, and gimp options.

The Ice Climbers however are in fact a 100-0 matchup. They can rush Ganondorf down with Blizzard, and he cannot work around this. And they are GUARANTEED to 0-death whoever they grab if they don't suck.

The key difference between the Ice Climbers and Sheik being that the Ice Climbers destroy Ganondorf much more efficiently.

 

[CoonTail]

Ivy-Mk is 0-100 honestly dont know if anyone noted it

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Except I have seriously not had a single Sheik successfully chaincamp my Ganondorf.

Thus logically speaking with both cases considered, the matchup is 95/5, not 100/0.

And that is why we discuss match-ups at the highest levels up play.

 

[smashkng]

I don't think in all stages IC/Ganon can be considered close to 100/0. They are so vulnerable to Counter Picking,

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't think in all stages IC/Ganon can be considered close to 100/0. They are so vulnerable to Counter Picking,

Hey, guess what? So is Ganon.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232507&page=1

 

[Z1GMA]

A skilled and campy ROB can be hell.
25 : 75

 

[Superspright]

Yup. I'd say 25:75 is about right. ROB has too many options, and in theory he should always **** you off stage--he can eat your dark dive and fair you and then fair chain you to death.

It's a hopeless match really if played to the fullest extent on both sides.

 

[Jochnick]

Thanks a lot man, I need this! And a VERY good job!

 

[TheMike]

A skilled and campy ROB can be hell.
25 : 75

This.

10thisssssssssss

 

[SmashBrosForce]

A skilled and campy ROB can be hell.
25 : 75

This is my first post in this thread. I'm not good at analyzing Match-Ups, but this current discussion about the Match-Up between Ganondorf and R.O.B caught my attention, especially this post.

I totally agree with you Z1GMA.

A skilled and campy R.O.B who uses a lot Gyro (Down-B) and Robo Beam (Neutral-B) can cause immense problems.

I'm saying this, cause I played a R.O.B who used a lot Down-B and Neutral-B and fled in fear when I got the chance to decently approach him. Since Ganondorf lacks a decent approach and he is a huge target, R.O.B can take advantage of this very well.

 

[TheMike]

ROB can choose: a) camp/**** or b) gimp/****. I mean, he *****. Ganon only has Side B and Dair as viable options.

 

[Clai]

ROB can choose: a) camp/**** or b) gimp/****. I mean, he *****. Ganon only has Side B and Dair as viable options.

I'd say that all of Ganon's aerials are viable in this match-up, as ROB is a big enough of a target for all of Ganon's aerials to hit it no matter where it is on the stage.

I say somewhere around 30:70 for this match-up for the reasons stated above.

 

[VodkaHaze]

ROB has a clear advantage. I'd say between 25/30 : 70/75. I played a good Ganondorf as ROB and the video is on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWmrfxGtas&feature=related
ROB's D-smash is what made him lose the match. I'd say it's one, if not the biggest, annoyance when playing against a ROB.

BTW, how did he regain his first jump at 0:11 and 1:32?!

 

[TheMike]

My post on this discuss:

Both are big targets, which means that both can hit the other on without much difficult, especially ROB. His camping game is amazing, and he'll probably find no problems to do so <3

ROB can also do some good stuff off-stage(GIMPS!), well, but on the MU, ROB doesn't need to worry much about what he's going to do as Ganon doesn't have many options. He'll need to find a way to approach and spam Dair and Side B like hell because, as i said before, ROB is a big target. On stages like Battlefield, Ganon's Side B is eally amazing as it puts ROB above the plattform giving Ganon chances to follow up(Uair/Usmash) racking up some good damage.

For kills, ROB can take Ganon off-stage, EG him well not allowing him to recover at all. For Ganon, i think that Ftilt and Usmash are some options, but nothing much...


In short, this MU depends on stages, but i can that it's 70:30 for ROB. I'm not going to say 75:25 because of Ganon's ways to rack up damage sometimes even quickly(if he can get lose to ROB earlier in the match).

So, for stages, ROB's best CP is Frigate. Gimps FTW. In terms of neutral, FD. For Ganon, i really can't think in another besides BF.

I'm quoting this so as to fix my opinion on 75:25. Damage isn't really important when ROB can gimp easily IMO

I'd say that all of Ganon's aerials are viable in this match-up, as ROB is a big enough of a target for all of Ganon's aerials to hit it no matter where it is on the stage.

How to take ROB on the air? Dair and Side B(plattforms or follow-ups like DA or Dtilt).

BTW, how did he regain his first jump at 0:11 and 1:32?!

At 0:11 I think he didn't use it before. And at 1:32 I really don't know, but maybe the plattform gave him a jump.

 

[VodkaHaze]

How about Norfair as a counterpick? The lava aids Ganondorf's recovery, and Ganonciding into the lava will kill your opponent. Plus, the layout can screw with ROB's projectiles and edgeguarding.

At 0:11 I think he didn't use it before. And at 1:32 I really don't know, but maybe the plattform gave him a jump.

I guess that explains how he got his first jump back, but I could SWEAR he didn't land on the platform or footstool me.

 

[smashkng]

Really is Samus that bad? We're talking about a character that is extremely weak. Her best kill moves lack in range. And Charge Shot is avoidable. Outside offstage gimps it should take forever for her to kill. Hard but I don't think it's that bad.

 

[TheMike]

Norfair isn't bad for ROB. We just don't have gimps, but we kill earlier. On Brinstar we can have kills earlier than usual with Fsmash, Nair, Bair(Side KOs) and Usmash(Up KOs). The last one is pretty good when used under one of the two side plattforms. However, here we can't camp the way ROB likes(only when the stage isn't divided)

Besides killing options, Brinstar's plattforms also give us an extra way to get aerials, especially when the opponent lags, but they can put us in a bad position as ROB sucks above most of the characters. Just avoid staying above them.

 

[TP]

ROB does HORRIBLE on Norfair against Ganon. He is so slow in the air that he can't easily avoid the walls of lava on the sides. Ganon can just wizkick away. When the walls come, ROB focuses on avoiding it and becomes easy Uair bait.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really is Samus that bad? We're talking about a character that is extremely weak. Her best kill moves lack in range. And Charge Shot is avoidable. Outside offstage gimps it should take forever for her to kill. Hard but I don't think it's that bad.

To make a long story short, Samus is an underrated character.

 

[smashkng]

To make a long story short, Samus is an underrated character.

Samus would be probably mid tier if she wasn't so weak. She is also susceptible to DDD infinite. That's what really pulls her off. Sakurai made Charge Shot weak when it shouldn't be weak, fsmash is pretty weak and lacks range, back air is powerful at sweetspot, but it's small, dtilt also lacks range and is weak... it's completely terrible. Against long ranged characters it takes forever to kill. What saves her at least is her weight, otherwise she would be even more horrible.

She has a great Zair but her extreme weak killing power and too little amount of kill moves is what pulls her off. Her roll also sucks.

It's hard but it's not Ganon's worst matchup because of how terrible she is at killing. If she was good at killing it would be 90-10 or worse.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Charge Shot is pretty stupid easy for Samus to land if the player behind her is really smart. All she has to do is combo into it or predict a dodge. Or for that matter edgeguard with it.

B-air is kinda situational, but she can do two in a shorthop.

F-smash has pretty good leanback, and Samus I believe can combo into it with a properly autocanceled F-air.

D-tilt has good range, wtf are you smoking? It's one of her best moves. It's pretty fast, decently safe, and a good KO move if fresh.

More like when you consider Samus's zoning options, she would be TOP TIER if she wasn't so weak, nor infinited by DDD. She's not a bad character. Snake only beats her like 6/4 at most, and the only reason he even wins is because he KOs 70% earlier.

By the way, a good Samus rarely ever has to roll. In case you forgot, you can Z-air out of air dodge. And think for a moment how gay that is.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Samus Vs. Ganon = Camp all day.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Charge Shot is pretty stupid easy for Samus to land if the player behind her is really smart. All she has to do is combo into it or predict a dodge. Or for that matter edgeguard with it.

B-air is kinda situational, but she can do two in a shorthop.

F-smash has pretty good leanback, and Samus I believe can combo into it with a properly autocanceled F-air.

D-tilt has good range, wtf are you smoking? It's one of her best moves. It's pretty fast, decently safe, and a good KO move if fresh.

More like when you consider Samus's zoning options, she would be TOP TIER if she wasn't so weak, nor infinited by DDD. She's not a bad character. Snake only beats her like 6/4 at most, and the only reason he even wins is because he KOs 70% earlier.

By the way, a good Samus rarely ever has to roll. In case you forgot, you can Z-air out of air dodge. And think for a moment how gay that is.

Samus can get away with more mistakes than any other character against Ganondorf. If the Samus is good, he or she will make very little mistakes, resulting in an automatic loss for us.

 

[TheMike]

****. I'm always confusing Norfair with Brinstar. My bad. And yeah, Norfair might be a good option for Ganon, but not too much difference.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, next match-up, Pikachu.

 

[stRIP]

This "new" buffered chaingrab **** rly ****s us hard, and pikachu can also camp us as hell

i would say 75:25

 

[Stealth Raptor]

cg gg no re

jk, yeah pikachu can hurt ganon pretty hard with it. i dont know if its that hard of a counter. then again i havent played a good ganon in a long time so i dont know for sure.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Run away from Pikachu until he does enough damage to you that he can't CG you. Sit idly on a platform if you must and wait for him to do some attacks. This is what I do against Falco to avoid getting chaingrabbed.

Pikachu's camping sucks. It's only good for stopping you from edgecamping, but outside of that, it's really telegraphed and easy to work around, and he can only use it safely at long distances. What's a lot more annoying is that he's a small target, able to move really fast, and he has pretty high priority. And you'll have a lot of trouble edgeguarding him, while he can get the KO pretty easily by just edgeguarding you on the other hand.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Run away from Pikachu until he does enough damage to you that he can't CG you. Sit idly on a platform if you must and wait for him to do some attacks. This is what I do against Falco to avoid getting chaingrabbed.

Pikachu's camping sucks. It's only good for stopping you from edgecamping, but outside of that, it's really telegraphed and easy to work around, and he can only use it safely at long distances. What's a lot more annoying is that he's a small target, able to move really fast, and he has pretty high priority. And you'll have a lot of trouble edgeguarding him, while he can get the KO pretty easily by just edgeguarding you on the other hand.

I'm a representative from the pika boards. My take on the matchup is, mindgame the ____ out of pikachu ^_^.

If you can avoid those multihit fastfall moves or punish them out of shield, then you could have a good avenue for some good damage (at least enough for ganon to kill, which he does okay ^_^). One of the more critical things that should be mentioned is that if pikachu crouches, a lot of ganon's things just miss more often. Be sure to check just how much (since against yoshi's crouch, ganon's thunderstorm barely misses/hits and warlock kick just seems to pass right through sometimes). Please correct me if i am wrong. Taking delibarate damage while punishing moves in a cautious way would be a good way of going about the matchup if the chaingrab becomes problematic. Full-hop t-jolts (since they autocancel) are the main way that pikachu's rack damage and setup their projectiles. If you keep this in mind, you could score and easy KO or rack some nice damage if you read the pika going for a full-hop jolt (with f-air or something). I'd have to say that learning all the timings and vulnerabilities pikachu has during a recovering quick attack is a REAL key in getting easy edgeguard kos. If you land a good sideways-downwards-sending u-air on a pika that has no second jump, its almost always a death on pika if the pika is not Freakin amazing in his QA recovery. Thunderstorm>mindgame on all of pika's u-smash attempts out of shield, and DI away and jump(while airdodging) to escape later f-throw setups. You could gamble with delaying your landing frames with down-b in the case that pika is wanting to punish your landing or mindgame with a low side-b in the event that pika expects down-b coming. Remember, after a certain piont of the shield, down-b can break it leading to an epic warlock punch ko. If the pika does not sweetspot teh ledge (most noob pikas) you can u-tilt kill them most all of the time (since the vaccum drags them nicely close ^_^. I personaly really like ganon and second him. I'll be rooting for ya'll.

 

[Clai]

Can Pikachu shield Ganondorf's aerial Wizard Kick without the move poking through it? I know some small characters can't shield both hits of the WK, and if Pikachu can't, it'd be a pretty easy way to avoid getting grabbed for that buffered chain-grab nonsense.

 

[TheVince]

Can Pikachu shield Ganondorf's aerial Wizard Kick without the move poking through it?

I don't have an answer to this question, but when would you ever want to be above pika?

>_>

*thunder*

 

[smashkng]

Can't you plank against Fox?

 

[Clai]

I don't have an answer to this question, but when would you ever want to be above pika?

>_>

*thunder*

If Pikachu sends Ganondorf up in the air, Ganondorf's in quite a predicament, as everything Ganon can do while in the air can be easily punished on shield or dodge if Ganon tries to use Aerial Flame Choke. If Ganondorf can use an Aerial Wizard Kick and poke through Pikachu's shield, then he can use that as an option so Pikachu can't stay close to Ganon and wreck him.

Ganondorf easily outranges everything Pikachu can do (except Pika's forward-smash), so keeping him away isn't hard to do, the problem lies in what Ganon can do once Pikachu is inside Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Small characters are the ones that are hard to shield poke most of the time....keep in mind.

Anyhow the real problem with this matchup is because he's a small target and really hard to hit, and he's got a ton of priority on his aerials, and some sick edgeguarding.

 

[thexsunrosered]

lucario next please

 

[A2ZOMG]

Didn't we already just discuss Lucario at their forums?

Anyhow this matchup sucks. Hard. It's exactly the same as vs G&W, except he kills you a little slower, but is immune to Flame Choke combos. He's a wall of super safe priority that you can't touch basically, and you can never punish his kill moves, and he edgeguards you hard.

 

[Z1GMA]

20 : 80

 

[smashkng]

Small characters are the ones that are hard to shield poke most of the time....keep in mind.

Anyhow the real problem with this matchup is because he's a small target and really hard to hit, and he's got a ton of priority on his aerials, and some sick edgeguarding.

I think Pikachu has the smallest shield size in the game, so his shield is extremely easy to break.