The truth about Brawl and why it will fail

[Embrio]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152758 This is a post I found that I find to be quite interesting and true. I thought I would bring it to the attention of the Smash boys since SRKers are some of the biggest ******* you'll find on net. I'll post my thoughts later but essentially everything Gimpy had to say I agreed with.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

::Sniff:: It's like "No Child Left Behind" for scrub smash players.

 

[Tofu Beast]

"smash boys"??!!

 

[S0crat3s]

I think I just puked a bit...

 

[Zek]

Yeah, I don't think that's any big secret. Sakurai is obviously not a competitive player and his design decisions reflect that. Most likely though he isn't involved at all in the process of fine-tuning character balance. I'm sure other members of the dev team take care of that, and judging from all the subtle balance tweaks there have been I imagine they're more familiar with high-level play than he is. There's almost nothing in Brawl that actively impedes competitive play, with the exception of tripping which is stupid but not game-breaking.

 

[RedMage8BT]

There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the
game's progress and results falter easily.

Well there you have it, tripping explained in a sentence by the creator himself.

Sakurai failed. I get just as angry when I lose in Melee than when I lose in Brawl. I don't get that angry, but a series of 3 or 4 losses will discourage anyone somewhat, no matter the circumstances. Sakurai even attempting to change that makes the game more of a sham. Sham, I say. And that's a word I don't often use: sham. Shamity sham sham. Sham!

 

[Device]

Interesting read, but it all makes sense. Look at what the main focus of the Wii is? It's no Halo 3 machine or OMG GIB ACHIVEMENT POINTS like the 360 is. And they did surely take their time on balancing everything so perfectly. I kinda like to see a game that all characters are playable, not just a select few. Tho, no matter what, I'll still play competitively ;D

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Yeah, Brawl will die in about a year and everyone will go back to Melee blah blah blah blah. We all know that.

I still won't stop playing the game though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do want to ask why people are bashing Brawl. Some of Melee's skills may be gone, but that's no excuse for saying that Brawl sucks.

 

[Zeborg]

Enlightening.

 

[shurf]

*sigh*

I agree with Gimpy 100%. I just wish Sakurai would. I mean one of the best parts of a fighting game is losing. Its a good driving force to keep a player practicing. And winning from all the practice feels great.

Tourneys are still very possible on Brawl, just no where near as fast-paced as Melee. And yeah, you can say its been "dumbed-down" quite a bit.

 

[Rauzaruke]

Sakurai created an extremely fun franchise loved by millions for its quirkiness and style that earns it its own category in the fighting genre. The way I see it is that the Smash series are one of the only fighting franchises where you can play it at a purely fun and nonsense level, but have the option to play competitively if you so desire. If anything Sakurai's philosophy in game making is creating a game fun for everyone. Look at any other fighting game. Can you honestly say it cater towards everyone and not a specific hardcore userbase? Smash's appeal is where the series gets most of its fanbase from, so naturally the creators are going focus more on the "fun" aspect in order to draw in more of the crowd. That doesn't mean that the completive metagame of Smash wasn't meant to exist or anything, otherwise we wouldn't even be here right now, but it wasn't the main focus of the game.

 

[Paingel]

It's really pretty sad that he thinks this way.

I do get frustrated by things like "glass ceilings" which prevent me from being decent with characters I like, but those are all in my own head and have nothing to do with the game itself.

It's all well and good to consider a player who doesn't like losing and yet isn't very good, but the way to get them to rise above that is to take the time to "teach" the player how to play, or allow the player to teach himself. As a player reaches higher levels of gameplay, he'll get more into the game and in turn will have more fun with it.

Replays help with this. Training mode also helps with this. Forcing players to play almost all of the characters to get through SSE also helps, because by the time you're done with SSE you'll have a basic feel of all of the characters.

Random tripping and trivializing wins through unfairness do not help with this at all. In fact, they make it worse, because the player who is inclined to be depressed after a fair loss will feel even worse after an unfair loss.

So not only did this line of thinking mess with the Competitive community, but it also actually made things worse for the "one little guy" who gets upset after losing.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Best. Topic. Ever. (@ Gimpy, this one is nice too for letting us all know about it).

So the issues and how things worked out aren't all that great, but I seriously hope this topic will stop a lot of the complaints, arguments, and topics about how Brawl isn't competitive enough, or how Brawl is or is not <insert whatever here>.

Brawl was clearly made with the casual player in mind for every moment of development for start to finish, not just the average casual, the very, very light gaming casual who might play the game long enough to finish it SSE and get all of the characters and stages.

There is evidence of it everywhere. Re-read Iwata asks and look at his descriptions and feelings about the players and the game, read that article, look at Nintendo's general philosophy, look at the types of games Sakurai generally makes... everything, absolutely EVERYTHING, points toward this game being simple, and directs it toward the most casual of audiences.

It's why tripping was added, it's why L-canceling was removed even if it was intentional in the last two games. Anything that could give player A any advantage over player B, at least anything they could find that didn't take away the party aspect of the game, was intentionally removed.

This sure answers a lot of questions. Everyone should read Gimpy's topic.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Oh man. All this time I though Sakurai was balancing the characters, so that each fighter wouldn't be considered "unplayable", and paying attention to the competative side of Brawl. Boy, how wrong was I.

It's balanced in the sense that regardless of skill the results will balance out to everyone basically "being a winner"

Well, that it explains it.

if the opponent was putting his heart into it, I'd feel that both were the same.

This just scares me.

 

[Papapaint]

Wow.

I understand so much more now.

 

[Stelfe]

Bah... I can't go back to melee....
I can't believe (in his eyes) that he was the creator of a monster he never even intended to make, and however successful it was, he still had to lock it up.

 

[Embrio]

Well as a result of Saks overall"very ***gy view on competition" this is what the majoirty of hardcore players think of brawl http://www.fightersgeneration.com/main.htm This is easily the largest fighting genre specific site i've seen and the webmaster is pretty consistent with his views.

Now After the extensive amount of time i've spent with brawl ive come to the conclusion that.....well there isnt much there. Sure its a nice multiplayer game but the lack of depth and techs just makes it so shallow and superficial. Forget about this being Melee 1.2 its more a beta for melee. The high level matches r boring and overall the game is tame and stale....melee is the only way to go.

 

[mario brawler]

even tho at the end gimpy said "I'm not saying brawl isn't good and that sakurai is a big dumb dumb" I still feel he implied it...alot,and well I some what agree,but I just feel like every one is just saying "NO HE SHOULD HAVE MADE THE GAME THIS WAY,FORGET ABOUT MAKING A GAME FUN FOR EVERYONE I JUST WANNA BE ABLE TO COMBO AND WAVE DASH" and all that good stuff,but him creating brawl is something he liked and enjoyed doing,if you dont like brawl then what ever dont play it,return it but dont flame it,he just wanted to create a game where no one feels like someone is far more superior than them(cuz lord knows there are a bunch of people who brag and bring other people down when they own the game and have a friend playing it for the 1st time),where they constantly keep getting 4th in matches,the game cuts them a lucky break to finally taste victory(pity FS,tripping),I guess the reason most of you are mad is because you MADE melee competetive,but now you cant make brawl as competitive as melee,and just so everyone knows I play with items off(can't lie sometimes only S balls...and occasionaly the items do go on ),I've played competitivley for years but just because it's not at the same level does'nt mean im not gonna play or enjoy this game,truth is if you really hated that fact about brawl then you would have returned it by know

 

[mario brawler]

OMG I hate my computer/this sites horrible way of posting things -.-

 

[mario brawler]

*slaps his head*

 

[rockmace]

<b>Smash is a FIGHTING GAME and NOT a "make your friends feel good festival". Or is it?</b>

Well, as far back as I can remember, in no fighting game you can win without landing at least one hit. But, hey, yesterday I just got a victory fighting with a friend in wich I only taunted with game%watch 'till he used wolf's sideB, losing 3 stocks this way.

I think a fighting game has as a general rule to defeat your oponent, and smash main rule is to stay alive in the platform.

Besides, there is no only one real truth about brawl, eventually will grow great for Xmashers (since I got a high respect for rethoric and the missuse of Competitive sicks me ) while leaving a complete customization so that noobs can have still fun with items and staying away of tournaments, and Xmashers can have their delightful fights in same skill levels without noobs geting in their way.

A nintendo game being more user friendly is a mistake? should be glad that at least there is a way to turn off randomness , he still apreciates this community hehe even if only as debuggers.

 

[Papapaint]

OMG I hate my computer/this sites horrible way of posting things -.-

No one's saying we're not going to have fun. This just explains why Brawl isn't nearly as competitive.

 

[mario brawler]

No one's saying we're not going to have fun. This just explains why Brawl isn't nearly as competitive.

oh cuz lol every one sounds like they're either going to die or hire an assassin to kill sakurai,well I dont know about you guys but I've been having fun with brawl every day scince I got it even more fun than melee,I think that makes me a casual player...but I dont really care, im obsessed with brawl and it's gonna be my favorite game until/if another smash is made lol,I should think through your guys heads tho I mean all you pro's and what not being used to the extremley fast paced fights...I can't really say any thing sorry...lol try fast high gravity brawl....jk

 

[plasmatorture]

With that kind of philosophy, I don't understand why he made the game the way he did.

Why are so many items bull****? They do not create more fun. It is not fun to get three-stocked by an opponent because they got items slightly faster than you did that all OHKO you even if you're barely hurt. That does not creat a feeling of "oh well I can just pick myself up and try again" it creates the very frustration he wants to avoid.

On the other hand, if you play 1v1 with items off on stages that aren't bull****, which is clearly not how Sakurai intended the game to be played, I think the game becomes far more balanced and is exactly the kind of fighter he wants and we want. It's fun. It's balanced. You don't get discouraged by losing, instead, it simply makes you more encouraged to try you best next time and try a new strategy.

That is all in tact in Brawl still so I'm not sure what the complaints are about.

 

[PhillipthaGoober]

Thats too bad he did that

 

[Rash]

Well, I've always believed that Smash Brothers was a casual game turned competitive by the players. Brawl is no different, really. Yeah, it's missing the techniques that developed Melee's metagame, but it can still be competitive based on what the players make of it. That's the way Smash has always been.

If you were in Sakurai's shoes, you'd develop Brawl as he has. That's because the players can usually make a lot more out of a game than the devs can, because while one team can develop a game, a whole world of gamers are the ones who play and interpret it. In a way, as a dev, you're always aware of the fact that the players of your game are really just extensions of it, so you'd use that to your advantage. As long as a game is open to varied interpretations among different audiences, it's golden. Again, this is what made Smash such a successful series in the first place.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I'd like to see Sakurai's sad face (if he does get sad) when he sees the game he spent so much time making get ignored by the community and left behind. While we play Melee!!!!

YEHS!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do find it possible to do Brawl tournaments. People just need to spend more time getting used to the game. Can't give up too quickly.

 

[Rash]

I don't see why Gimpy would care. His character is actually GOOD in Brawl.

Anyway, I've already made a theory about "competitive factions within the Smash community." To some, Brawl is a step forwards. For others, it's a step backwards. Either way, Brawl will have its own competitive community, with people who try to enhance the metagame. Others who still enjoy the already established metagame with Melee will stick with it, obviously, and just forget about Brawl. Not everyone who played Smash 64 moved onto Melee, especially in a competitive sense. Not everyone who played Melee will move onto Brawl, in the same manner. That's just the way things go. It's up to the gamer in question to decide what he wants to do. I can't believe people expected the transition from Melee to Brawl to be super smooth and flawless. We're talking about VIDEOGAMES here, especially in the fighting genre. Things are always going to change.

 

[BBQ°]

Sakurai needs to acknowledge that in smash bros, the competitive community is larger than the casual-gamer community. One reason why Melee lasted until the release of Brawl was the competitive aspect to it.

If Brawl was meant to be a party game, then a lot of competitives will loose interest in Brawl and go to a new game or back to Melee. But, if Brawl was competitive like Melee, than the competitives will stay, and novices will desire to become better, and ultimately increase the smash bros community. Something similary happened to me. One day I decided to bring my gamecube to school and we had a Melee tournament. I was a semi-competitve player and I just relied on using my casual-gamer skills to win. But a few kids who were playing were able to wavedash, chain grab, shffl, and dash dance. This was the first time I had ever seen these techniques being utilized and it made me even more interested in melee. I started watching pros on youtube such as Ken and Mew2king, and learned the advanced techniques. Later, I found Smashboards and Smashwiki, and I am now a walking information station about Melee. I now can hold my own in fights against the wavedashers at school by learning the techniques. Sakurai needs to realize that he created a masterpiece of a game, and he ruined the amazing competitive nature of smash bros by making brawl. Don't get me wrong. Brawl is an incredible game, but Melee's technical aspect to it surpasses Brawl by a long way.

I'm already slowing turning back to Melee...

 

[Zeldasalsa]

the competition created in SSB games is only one intrepretation of the games.

 

[Rash]

the competition created in SSB games is only one intrepretation of the games.

THANK YOU.

 

[MeLeo]

If I see one more person say "Well competitive players make only 1% of the people who play smash, Sakurai should cater to the other 99% for better business" I will puke.

Melee was the best selling game for the gamecube even though it's probably the most competitive multiplayer game Nintendo ever developed. Why did it sell so well then? Because the 99% of players who bought it have no clue about the advanced techs or even these forums. They bought it because it was a unique and fun game.

THOSE PEOPLE would've bought Brawl regardless if Sakurai left DD, LC, different fall speeds, FASTER gameplay, etc. in Brawl.

The most game-changing (ruining) aspect he designed for Brawl was the absolute lack of hitstun for attacks and grabs. Notice the pattern guys?
Hitstun in SSB64 >> Hitstun in SSBM >>>>>>>> Hitstun in Brawl.

Sakurai is just a selfish pr!@$ who decided that some people were playing his game differently than he wanted, so he decided to f&@$ Brawl over. He did it for personal, not business, reasons, which makes him selfish pr!@$

I repeat, Brawl, like Melee, wouldv'e sold EXCELLENTLY regardless of how competitive the game could potentially be.

Why couldn't he give us the OPTION to have LC, etc. in Brawl. I mean WTF ever happened to adding OPTIONS with games? I don't care if it would've taken the place of (the unremarkable 6 months from now) SSE, MORE options = BETTER.

Oh, and rock-paper-scizzors can be competitive... THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT fun, exciting, or DEEP. So stop regurgitating that ******** quote people.

/rant :D

 

[Mann]

I repeat, Brawl, like Melee, wouldv'e sold EXCELLENTLY regardless of how competitive the game could potentially be.

Sold excellently? Sure. But the fans wouldn't have been as much as they are now. Think about how long Melee was out for, and how many people kept purchasing the game. Now, why did people keep purchasing the game? I'm pretty sure the majority didn't have the idea of "I'm missing a gamecube game, this seems fun." The competitiveness of Melee intrigued players and brought them into try it themselves, which grew and grew. Word of mouth, accidentally stumbling on a video on youtube, neighbors, friends, etc.

 

[MeLeo]

Lol did you just not read the rest of my post? I said there that:
(1) If Brawl was competitive: it will be the best selling game for the Wii
(2) If Brawl was completely a casual party game: it will be the best selling game for the Wii

So either way, Brawl would've sold well. All Sakurai did was alienate many of the most dedicated Smashers
by dumbing it down so much.

EDIT:

Scar asked me to come in and explain the fighting game concept in regard to the actual mechanisms behind competitive play. It general fighting games, the entire engine is boiled down to two things:

The Push and Pull: This is where we encounter the term "mind games" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In smash, we still have the same basic fighter concept, and are given an additional component:

The Edge: Encompasses all things related to killing your opponent off the sides and bottom of the stage through guarding the edge. This is where we see gimping most often.

For the Smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push and pull and the punishment.

In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push and pull less important than being able to consistently death combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push and pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (This is a slightly overstated )

In Melee, there was a balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running(your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hit stun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

I will stop at this point, only because the my purpose here is to explain the imbalance of Brawl and why the mechanisms in this game prevent it from being reasonably viable on a competitive level. Sure, they may continue to play the game in tournament and it may even become big, but it doesn't mean it should be. Brawl has ruined all of the work that we, the melee community, put into getting Smash recognized as a fighting game. Brawl is a platformer party game, not a fighting game.

If anyone disagrees with anything, please feel free to respond with your argument so that I can ruin you. I would further elaborate on what I already have, but I'm starving, and it has probably affected the coherence of some of this post.


Edit: @AlphaZealot: The focus from too many players on too many arguments has been on removal of techniques. All of that is not important. This is.

QFT!!!

 

[Newskool]

So Brawl was developed by Barney the dinosaur.

Now I see...

 

[pirkid]

the competition created in SSB games is only one intrepretation of the games.

Best quote by a Smash n00b ever. Congrats.


Really, this is just more of the same flame twice over. It's not worth worrying about how the game will be in a few years. Just play Brawl, or Melee, your not forced or obliged to not play either one.

Go. Play. Stop with the useless add-on flame that these boards have suffered through since February.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

Yeah, I don't think that's any big secret. Sakurai is obviously not a competitive player and his design decisions reflect that. Most likely though he isn't involved at all in the process of fine-tuning character balance. I'm sure other members of the dev team take care of that, and judging from all the subtle balance tweaks there have been I imagine they're more familiar with high-level play than he is. There's almost nothing in Brawl that actively impedes competitive play, with the exception of tripping which is stupid but not game-breaking.

You obviously didn't read about Sakurai's speech at GDC. He personally tweaked every single frame of every single attack until it was exactly the way he wanted it. Which makes me understand why he didn't want L-canceling to remain; after balancing all of those attacks against one another, watching that balance get ripped to shreds with the push of a button would just make me rage.

 

[kr3wman]

Best quote by a Smash n00b ever. Congrats.


Really, this is just more of the same flame twice over. It's not worth worrying about how the game will be in a few years. Just play Brawl, or Melee, your not forced or obliged to not play either one.

Go. Play. Stop with the useless add-on flame that these boards have suffered through since February.

Anyone objective enough could say that...