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The Truth: Whether we like it....or not.

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Prince Of Fire

Smash Lord
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The smash brothers community took a turn for the worst on March 9th, 2007 when Super Smash Brothers: Brawl came out for the Nintendo Wii. This marked the beginning of the Brawl VS Melee debate. Which game is better? Which is more fun? Will they both stay and stick around? Will one reign supreme and the other one die?

Lets take a look and see.

First off, Melee is arguably one of the most amazing games to ever hit the Nintendo Gamecube….without a doubt and I don’t think anyone on this website can argue against that. Melee is phenomenal whether you could play on a high competitive level…or not.

The smash brothers community now in its current state is playing Brawl. Some people may LOVE this idea while others DESPISE it and want Melee back in its full glory. I’m sorry Melee fans….but Melee will NEVER be what it used to be. Brawl has stolen some of Melees flare and glory whether we like it or not and though it may be revived a bit someday…it will never reach its peak ever again. We don’t know whether or not Brawl is going to be as hot and great as Melee was….but time will tell. I truly think that people are having a hard time understanding exactly WHY Brawl is the “game to play” now. It is not because it is the “better” game….its because it is fresh. Take a look at some sequels that have come out to the following games and ask yourself if the LATEST of those games are better than the originals or the older…..some comparisons may be

Mario Kart 64---Mario Kart Wii
Devil May Cry---Devil May Cry II
Donkey Kong Country---Donkey Kong Country III
Halo II---Halo III
Final Fantasy X---Final Fantasy X-2
Metal Gear: Solid---Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty
Etc etc…..you get the idea.

Not EVERY SINGLE game that follows is better…in fact a majority of games that are released…the originals always catch the most attention. The fact of the matter is despite how good or bad Brawl is people are playing it because “it’s the new thing to do.” To put it in other terms….its like a fashion fad; like adidas black and white sandals for teens, ug boots, performance fleece at Old Navy, (Remember that commerical Old Navy! Old Navy! Old Navy performance fleece!) or the cancer bracelets people used to wear. When Halo III came out on the 360 Halo fans were jerkin their wangs off to the new game but the good and knowledgable Halo fans prefer Halo II because it was much more complicated, more depth, etc. The same instance applies to the Melee VS Brawl debate. A good chunk of smash competitors PREFER Melee but the fact of the matter is they CAN NOT play Melee competitively as much anymore because it does not flow with the times.

For those of you who play Metal Gear: Do you remember the first codec call that The Boss made with “Naked Snake” A.K.A-Big Boss? it’s the opening virtuous mission and she goes on to explain the change in the times and how peoples values change over and with the times as well….if you have the game….go listen to it…it’s a really interesting part of the game.

Its not even the fact that Brawl’s a bad game….its not, it is actually really fun. The fact of the matter of is that the game has no purpose in the competitive scene….at all and with good reasons.

-Armor Frames introduced (Why do Wario, Ike, Snake, Charizard, DK, and DDD get armor frames?)

Half of the characters in that category are already within the top five best characters in the game.

DDD-Chain Throws…enough said….his throws are too good and we all know this.
DK-Best at spacing and the most powerful character in the game (also a good matchup VS Snake….mr top tier.)
Ike-Kills at 50% anyone? His speed is bad, but killing at that low makes up for it. He does need armor frames for his neu b.
Wario-Hes too fast and his fsmash comes out too fast as well, no need for this armor frame.
Snake-They should have designed a better recovery for Snake where he could not be gimped so easily. Poor game development in this aspect….he shouldn’t need armor frames either with his dare I say the banned Snake word….TILTS!

There was no need to give these characters armor frames and I think that is a fair assumption. Why not give armor frames to peach? Or to Sonic? Sonic deserves them more than anyone.

The Toadstool Jump-

Ahh one of the corniest (I guess funniest as well) things in brawl. Why would you want to jump on someones head? If I was eight or nine years old I might find good use for this.

Tripping-

Do I once again need to say anything? This concept inserts the “random element” back into matches and basically adds that item feeling to a match. There is currently a team on this website trying to hack the game and remove this element of the game. All Brawl AND Melee players hate this. This is like using one of diddys bananas in the middle of a match if you want to get technical. Nintendo did not want us to be getting too serious with our matches.

Lack of fun in the Target Tests and HRC-

First, lets take a look at the Target Tests

In both 64 and Melee EVERY character had their own unique course to run through and break those targets. In Brawl they now placed ITEMS in their and used the same five levels for all the characters. You can easily grab the fire cracker with any character and beat the test within a good 7-8 seconds making it less impressive to set records in the target tests. Wasn’t that part of the fun in Melee? Doing something special in the target tests and getting recognized for it? Brawl one again fails in this department.

Now the Home Run Contest-

It still takes skill to get a good solid score down in the HRC but good people in melee are now getting a good 5 or 6 K while noobs who weren’t good at Melee (due to lack of barriers) are now getting 1 or 2,000 and getting a boner. The point is, the noob players are still easy to locate and the experienced HRC people are wrecking their old Melee records. This “barrier” insertion was put into the game to make people feel like they could do some sick stuff. Also, the strategies for the returning characters has generally stayed the same. Capt Falcon, Ganondorf, and Iceys still follow the general same procedure by dropping the bat and then dairing or fairing….from there rinse and repeat. They did nothing special by inserting the “barrier”…it just was there to make less experienced people feel happy or good about themselves.

Online play-

The online play in Brawl has to be one of the worst things ever. The communication for it is pathetic. There is NO WAY you can communicate with someone who is already in a match unless you call or text them on their phone…..no other way. That’s the system I’ve come to develop…I just text my friends when I want to play them and it works nicely. If Brawl was going to be such a “competitive game” they would have had rankings, better communication, and some form of stat sheet. Did they do that though? No.

Replay “tags”-

Have you ever saved a replay of a match you did online or with your friend on your SD card or Wii system? Im sure you’ve noticed that you cant see their ID tags during that match. Hmmm…I wonder why Nintendo went ahead and did that? They did not want to make the game competitive.

The Defensive System and why the game revolves around gimping and spacing-

The defensive system in Brawl is about the most broken thing in all of the smash brothers games aside from the throws in Smash Brothers: 64. Go play a NORMAL match with a friend (NO ONLINE! Timing is key…) pick ANY character and literally do side steps the whole match (3 stock should be decent) you will notice that if you time your side steps well you can constantly evade attacks. There is practically NO lag between each side step. Also, if you roll and hit l or R as soon as you end your roll you can IMMEDIATELY shield and avoid an incoming attack. This is one of the key things that makes Brawl such a boring game. The key to being successful at Brawl is to out camp your opponent. This does not have to mean firing lasers and spamming projectiles…but standing still and knowing when to dodge, roll, shield etc. Be a defensive player…and you will win. This is not a BAD thing but it is how the game is played.

The Length of Matches-

In Brawl the "tournament" setting for matches is 3 stock with a seven minute time limit. In Melee a four stock match took about this long. The reason for the adjustment to 3 stock is because it takes much longer and a much higher percent to kill your opponent which makes the game yet again, dry and boring. Its no shocker to see a marth go up to 148% or Snake to 200% sometimes...which is very stupid and annoying. I personally prefer to get in a good 4-5 matches in 15 minutes of melee than 2-4 in 15 of Brawl.....but that is just me.

Gimping and WHY its important-

Ok, so we’ve seen that the defensive system in Brawl is beyond broken but why is gimping and choosing characters such as GAW, DDD, MK, Kirby etc such a good choice? Half of brawls KO’s simply come off of Gimps…and that’s why MK annoys the crap out of everyone…he does it too well and that’s why hes the second on the tier list behind Solid Snake. The reason why most kills come from gimping is because you have a better opportunity to kill someone before they can recover because the aerial dodge is a lot less broken than the ground defensive game. That’s also why most of Brawls kills are done when someone is coming back from the ledge…the defensive system is weak there as well. I actually personally like to use Shiek and find she does decent against particular match ups. I actually do decently well against Snakes with my shiek. She can stop grenades with her needles…annoy snake and cause him to come to her as opposed to have him approach her, she can knock him off his cypher with a fair or bair if hits his body, she can string attacks onto him up to 80% with EASE….the only thing to watch out for is his f tilt and its not that much of a tough match up actually. Yes, if you want to see me play Shiek tell me your FC and I’ll play you…anyway though….

The Characters-

Every single character is good in Brawl…there is NO DOUBT about it. (Aisde from Sonic, the biggest dissapointment ever. Him and how much he sucks makes me want to not play Brawl alone.) The fact is though is that everyone thinks characters such as Capt Falcon, Shiek, Link, Jigglypuff, etc stink but they really are quite good its just that unbelievable characters such as GAW, DDD, Snake, and MK that are beyond broken in different ways make them look horrible. Play my Shiek….you’ll be surprised how good I am with her. My point is though is that ANYONE who has played smash brothers for more than two days can pick up Luigi, Mario, Bowser, DK, or whoever and make them look good. All of the characters are too user friendly and once again to not welcome a competitive setting.

Spikes-

Some characters in Brawl have spikes EX-Marth, Falco, Toon Link, Olimar, etc) but not every character can be spiked. Whats the point in calling the move a spike if certain characters can not be spiked? Characters such as Meta Knight, Kirby, R.O.B and Pit can avoid spikes by simply just saving their jumps sparingly. Last I checked a spike was a move that goes straight down. When you see a volleyball player perform a spike does the ball surface up again after going straight down? No. Definitely not.

Character Recoveries-

There are certain characters in Brawl that can literally travel to the other side of the stage and pop up on the other side. In Melee, it was only Kirby and the Ice Climbers could do a neat little Hyrule jump…but that’s about it. Characters such as R.O.B, Pit, Jigglypuff, MK, Kirby, and (I think DDD) can drop down and travel to the other side of most stages. So in a sense, they have the most broken recoveries every seen in Smash Brothers Video game.

Little itty bitty stuff that makes no sense-

GAWS Key out prioritizes snakes rockets
Three shots of falcos lasers don’t stop snakes mini missle
Marth doesn’t outrange anyone anymore….he just has “good power” if you tip.
DDD chain throws 3-4 characters without having to move.
Ness and Lucas have an infinite death grab that shows poor game development.
The infinite jump: what is the point of doing this during a match?
The “crawl” wavedash: Are we sinking THAT low people? Come on…….


I seriously wanted Brawl to be the new competitive game and I thought that in time Brawl would come out to be better than Melee…..I was wrong. Even if L canceling was in Brawl…it would not make it better because the whole defensive system is beyond broken as is…sidestepping would alter any point of L canceling.

I have been to around 10-13 Brawl tournaments (both big attendance…and little) and have never placed higher than 13th and would say im a fairly good competitor. I mained Meta Knight, Snake, GAW and Shiek but have grown sick of the game already because the game is too dry for me. I gave the game a chance and did not just sit back and board that Melee rebellion wagon…but the game is truly a failure. The general consensus I’ve gathered is that the people who failed to stand out in Melee are using Brawl as a way to prove to the community that they are a good smasher. I admit, I thought and wanted the same thing initially myself because I personally, am not good at Melee. But what is going to separate you from other people in Brawl? Everyone has seen a good snake, gaw, mk, etc and all those top tier people so to stand out as a good player in Brawl you’ll have to use Sonic or someone like Capt Falcon. No one would care how good you do with GAW or DDD because they’ll just think “Oh, hes good with his snake tilts” or “dam, his GAW’s bair spacing is very good.” Brawls too dry at this point and takes no quick reflexes or though process that melee does.

Regardless of whether you thought melee was about l cancels, giant combos you can link, or just smash buttons….you’re very wrong. L cancels and advanced techniques were not the elements that made Melee stand out. It was quick thinking, characters and attributes that MADE sense, no CHEAP CHARACTERS (MK, Snake; I know some of you think they are both beyond cheap, don’t even lie about it.) etc. Did Melee have any cheap characters that WRECKED EVERYONE? No. The space animals did good against everyone except Marth and marth was a good matchup against Shiek…and shiek dominated everyone else…Melee was well balanced. GAW can not even L cancel three out of his five aerials, and shiek does not even need to l cancel her fair…its lagless. That is why shiek was so dominate even before L canceling was discovered.

Its sad to see people playing Brawl and conforming because I know deep down inside most of you reading this now….Miss Melee. Brawl is at this point the game that everyone is playing and I can not deny that at all….it is the truth but why play something I don’t like just to “fit in?” Actually the real question is, why arent you all playing Melee if you like it more? Oh yeah, I forgot….its what “everyone else is doing”

Brawl is the “bandwagon game”….not Melee. If people could play Melee….they could but like I explained earlier….the times determine what peoples values are and right now….people want to play the new fresh game….Brawl because that’s what people do.

If you want evidence for me to prove that most people prefer Melee, I will provide it for you.

I’m hosting a Melee tournament in the near future and would love to see faces there.

Regards,

-POF
 

ICANTCOUNT123456

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
348
Location
North Carolina
Unfortunately, either way, the smash community would most likely die out if it went back to Melee.
And whilst brawl may not be a game that everyone enjoys, it would probobly last longer,instead of if we instead got Melee back.

Edit: After reading this, it seems as if you have a passion for hating Brawl, who cares about target test? I mean a couple do, but mostly everybody forgot they exist.

Also, you said this in the online thing... (yes I know how to quote)

"If Brawl was going to be such a “competitive game” they would have had rankings, better communication, and some form of stat sheet. Did they do that though? No. "

The thing is, is that, THE SMASH SERIES WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE PART OF COMPETITIVE GAMING.
 

Prince Of Fire

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,316
Location
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7112063&
Obviously they knew that it had transformed into a competitive game becuas they took wavedashing, l canceling, etc out so they definitely knew that having rankings and all of that stuff would make it competitive. Knowing that....they did not do so.

I agree with you otherwise, in fact when Smash 64 came out they just thought it was going to be just a little joke but since it was such a huge success in Japan, they decided to release it in the USA and if it was successful, make a sequel etc etc. I'm not saying people should REVIVE Melee but it should still be part of the scene. As I said, Melee will never be what it once was and I acknowledge that.
 

Best101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
983
Location
Atlanta, GA
I could read this 10 times over lol.

Also I loved Target Test in Melee and Smash64. It was fun trying to sub 4 seconds on Link's Target Test.
 

Laijin

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Messages
5,848
Location
Rylai the Crystal Maiden's Igloo
Its pretty sad that nowadays people are traveling more just to go to melee tournaments. Since they are so rare, more OOS smashers are showing up at more melee tournaments.

LOL @ crawl wding.
brawl is a complete failure as a fighting game.
a party game maybe, but not as a fighting game.
 

brg

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
545
The only way we are going to find out if brawl is good is if the current metagame/state of the game is unchanged in 2 years.
 

acv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
496
Location
VA
The smash brothers community took a turn for the worst on March 9th, 2007 when Super Smash Brothers: Brawl came out for the Nintendo Wii. This marked the beginning of the Brawl VS Melee debate. Which game is better? Which is more fun? Will they both stay and stick around? Will one reign supreme and the other one die?
if you are not even smart enough to know the date brawl came out then why should we listen to your points about which game is better.also you can not provide proof more people like melee.yet why are there more people playing in brawl tournaments?also how can you even make a point when brawl is 4 months old and melee is 7?
 

Dj Chopin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
105
Location
St. Louis, MO
i love brawl. i played alot of melee. alot. personally, i find it refreshing that people are climbing ladders and winning tournaments with more than just a few characters. melee was so unbalanced that if you didnt use Marth, Fox, Falco, Falcon, or Sheik, you were pretty much toast. i quit melee a while back bc i just got bored. i didnt see the need to push my wavedashing abilities to extreme limits any longer. there was no motivation, all the insane players already owned the tourny scene, and it was just never gonna change.

smash brothers is reborn. new. different people are able to pick up the game now, it leveled the playing field in alot of ways. and ppl who played melee obviously still have the advantage. so in my opinion, i was sick of using falco every **** day. sick of black background final destination. sick of wavedashing. sick of melee. personally, i do think it sucks that they neglected some crucial online features, but i think alot of free software more than makes up for it. AIM pretty much covers everyone and the ladders are just run off free websites. long live brawl!
 

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
Is it really necessary to keep bringing this up? Just let time take care of it. If its future ends up being as bad as some say, then people will know when to turn. But until then I and many, many others will do what we find enjoyable.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
all i saw was a lot of QQ'ing, and AWFUL lot of things wrong.

ill start with a few, cbf doing them all

Dedede' up only has SA for a short period, as hes going up. before he reaches the peack, and the entire way down, every single character can attack him out of it. even luigi can stand on the ground and fmsash dedede right out of his recovery. Also, snake doesnt have true SA frames. a lot of attacks knock him out of his up-b. anyone with an aerial finisher can kick him right out of it, or spike him.

G&W rivals DK for most powerful in the game, since his dair, fair are extremely powerful, and his smashes are only slightly less. hes also got the #9, oil panic for 0% KO's.

ike KO's at 50%.... so what lol, landing his fsmash against any good player is near impossible (hence why RoK lands them often lol). all his other moves dont KO till about 100, at which stage ganon, fox, DK, G&W already KO much easily.
 

turbinator

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
46
Good for you if you like melee more than brawl. Melee being better than brawl however is not the truth. It is opinion.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
Its not even the fact that Brawl’s a bad game….its not, it is actually really fun. The fact of the matter of is that the game has no purpose in the competitive scene….at all and with good reasons.
I'm no smash debator, but I'll give it a shot. I honestly disagree with your comments.

-Armor Frames introduced (Why do Wario, Ike, Snake, Charizard, DK, and DDD get armor frames?)

Half of the characters in that category are already within the top five best characters in the game.

DDD-Chain Throws…enough said….his throws are too good and we all know this.
DK-Best at spacing and the most powerful character in the game (also a good matchup VS Snake….mr top tier.)
Ike-Kills at 50% anyone? His speed is bad, but killing at that low makes up for it. He does need armor frames for his neu b.
Wario-Hes too fast and his fsmash comes out too fast as well, no need for this armor frame.
Snake-They should have designed a better recovery for Snake where he could not be gimped so easily. Poor game development in this aspect….he shouldn’t need armor frames either with his dare I say the banned Snake word….TILTS!

There was no need to give these characters armor frames and I think that is a fair assumption. Why not give armor frames to peach? Or to Sonic? Sonic deserves them more than anyone.
At this point, I thought this thread was a joke thread, and that I'd been duped. But after reading onwards, it seems as if you're actually serious about this. Super Armor is not such a big deal. It lets the heavies have some REAL advantages to being heavy, and allows ridiculous, seemingly useless moves to have a practical use (Whistle Armor anyone?). Super Armor frames are so far and wide, anyways, that they're nothing to COMPLAIN about. They're so sparse and the moves in which they inhabit are usually situational at best or simply KO moves. Also, your complaints about the characters makes me question your logic. Why talk about D3 and complain about his chaingrabs instead of the super-armor that you were talking about him for (which can be EASILY punished)?


The Toadstool Jump-

Ahh one of the corniest (I guess funniest as well) things in brawl. Why would you want to jump on someones head? If I was eight or nine years old I might find good use for this.
Toadstooling is a form of spiking that has set knockback if I remember right. Not only do certain moves get special benefits from it/implement it well (Flip Jump, Monkey Flip), but it allows many characters to spike, "counter-edgeguard" if you're crafty enough to turn the tides and recover while sending your foe to the abyss, implement special combos into moves that would normally not land easily (Toon Link's Dair, for one), and ensure a spike or certain doom after a "suicide" move that carries you both downwards (Kirby's the biggest example).

Tripping-

Do I once again need to say anything? This concept inserts the “random element” back into matches and basically adds that item feeling to a match. There is currently a team on this website trying to hack the game and remove this element of the game. All Brawl AND Melee players hate this. This is like using one of diddys bananas in the middle of a match if you want to get technical. Nintendo did not want us to be getting too serious with our matches.
Tripping happens so rarely, is it really that big of a deal? Yes, it's annoying, but it's so rare, there's absolutely NO reason to complain. Heck, you get invincibility frames during most of it, so complaining about it is really just plain johning.

Lack of fun in the Target Tests and HRC-

First, lets take a look at the Target Tests

In both 64 and Melee EVERY character had their own unique course to run through and break those targets. In Brawl they now placed ITEMS in their and used the same five levels for all the characters. You can easily grab the fire cracker with any character and beat the test within a good 7-8 seconds making it less impressive to set records in the target tests. Wasn’t that part of the fun in Melee? Doing something special in the target tests and getting recognized for it? Brawl one again fails in this department.
I completely agree with this statement.

Now the Home Run Contest-

It still takes skill to get a good solid score down in the HRC but good people in melee are now getting a good 5 or 6 K while noobs who weren’t good at Melee (due to lack of barriers) are now getting 1 or 2,000 and getting a boner. The point is, the noob players are still easy to locate and the experienced HRC people are wrecking their old Melee records. This “barrier” insertion was put into the game to make people feel like they could do some sick stuff. Also, the strategies for the returning characters has generally stayed the same. Capt Falcon, Ganondorf, and Iceys still follow the general same procedure by dropping the bat and then dairing or fairing….from there rinse and repeat. They did nothing special by inserting the “barrier”…it just was there to make less experienced people feel happy or good about themselves.
What you say is true, but it really isn't that big of a deal. If anything, there are even MORE possibilities because it bounces off the sides. I miss the acrobatics, though, as it was dang fun to see how far you can get.

Online play-

The online play in Brawl has to be one of the worst things ever. The communication for it is pathetic. There is NO WAY you can communicate with someone who is already in a match unless you call or text them on their phone…..no other way. That’s the system I’ve come to develop…I just text my friends when I want to play them and it works nicely. If Brawl was going to be such a “competitive game” they would have had rankings, better communication, and some form of stat sheet. Did they do that though? No.
...Smash Bros. wasn't meant to be so competitive in the first place. Also, with so many people using the same servers for the game, if they allowed you to really TALK through it, can you imagine how much lag it'd produce for everyone? Personally, I use AIM or the phone when I want to brawl with someone. Actually, now that I think about it, doesn't EVERY online game force you to communicate through outside means in order to initiate a game? I mean, even Metroid Prime: Hunters, which allowed actual voice chat between battles, you both had to be signed in to the game at once and both had to be online...

Replay “tags”-

Have you ever saved a replay of a match you did online or with your friend on your SD card or Wii system? Im sure you’ve noticed that you cant see their ID tags during that match. Hmmm…I wonder why Nintendo went ahead and did that? They did not want to make the game competitive.
...I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. If I remember correctly, Smash Bros. does not truly save "video" footage of your match. What it does is save every single action that was performed in the match, and when you load a replay, it is literally reconstructing the match move by move. Heck, you can take screenshots during replays and move the camera around. You can't do THAT with a regular video footage. Adding ID tags would be too much strain and be just excess baggage, most likely reducing the very short time of 3 minutes even more. Besides, how would that apply to Basic Brawl online? Isn't it supposed to be anonymous? Correct me if I'm wrong (and I might be), but unless you make separate versions of the replays for With Anyone mode, wouldn't you see their ID tag as well if it saved ID tags?

The Defensive System and why the game revolves around gimping and spacing-

The defensive system in Brawl is about the most broken thing in all of the smash brothers games aside from the throws in Smash Brothers: 64. Go play a NORMAL match with a friend (NO ONLINE! Timing is key…) pick ANY character and literally do side steps the whole match (3 stock should be decent) you will notice that if you time your side steps well you can constantly evade attacks. There is practically NO lag between each side step. Also, if you roll and hit l or R as soon as you end your roll you can IMMEDIATELY shield and avoid an incoming attack. This is one of the key things that makes Brawl such a boring game. The key to being successful at Brawl is to out camp your opponent. This does not have to mean firing lasers and spamming projectiles…but standing still and knowing when to dodge, roll, shield etc. Be a defensive player…and you will win. This is not a BAD thing but it is how the game is played.
Untrue. Sidesteps and rolls have vulnerability in between the invincibility frames. It is extremely easy to punish rollers before they have time to shield, as well as sidesteppers who become predictable. Also, MANY moves in brawl are extremely long-lasting and have the "knockback" portion as the final hit, meaning that a person trying to sidestep Pikachu's dsmash or Zelda's fsmash is in for a rude awakening. Also, you have vulnerability frames from landing at any time. :D Heck, even airdodges can be punished.


The Length of Matches-

In Brawl the "tournament" setting for matches is 3 stock with a seven minute time limit. In Melee a four stock match took about this long. The reason for the adjustment to 3 stock is because it takes much longer and a much higher percent to kill your opponent which makes the game yet again, dry and boring. Its no shocker to see a marth go up to 148% or Snake to 200% sometimes...which is very stupid and annoying. I personally prefer to get in a good 4-5 matches in 15 minutes of melee than 2-4 in 15 of Brawl.....but that is just me.
...So? I don't see why it's such a big problem to start using 3-stock instead of 4-stock if the whole point of 4-stock was to be a quick, decisive battle, and if 3-stock can incorporate that better now, then why not?

Gimping and WHY its important-

Ok, so we’ve seen that the defensive system in Brawl is beyond broken but why is gimping and choosing characters such as GAW, DDD, MK, Kirby etc such a good choice? Half of brawls KO’s simply come off of Gimps…and that’s why MK annoys the crap out of everyone…he does it too well and that’s why hes the second on the tier list behind Solid Snake. The reason why most kills come from gimping is because you have a better opportunity to kill someone before they can recover because the aerial dodge is a lot less broken than the ground defensive game. That’s also why most of Brawls kills are done when someone is coming back from the ledge…the defensive system is weak there as well. I actually personally like to use Shiek and find she does decent against particular match ups. I actually do decently well against Snakes with my shiek. She can stop grenades with her needles…annoy snake and cause him to come to her as opposed to have him approach her, she can knock him off his cypher with a fair or bair if hits his body, she can string attacks onto him up to 80% with EASE….the only thing to watch out for is his f tilt and its not that much of a tough match up actually. Yes, if you want to see me play Shiek tell me your FC and I’ll play you…anyway though….
...Shiggawhat? Isn't brawl supposed to be floatier and gimping is supposedly much harder/relatively the same?

The Characters-

Every single character is good in Brawl…there is NO DOUBT about it. (Aisde from Sonic, the biggest dissapointment ever. Him and how much he sucks makes me want to not play Brawl alone.) The fact is though is that everyone thinks characters such as Capt Falcon, Shiek, Link, Jigglypuff, etc stink but they really are quite good its just that unbelievable characters such as GAW, DDD, Snake, and MK that are beyond broken in different ways make them look horrible. Play my Shiek….you’ll be surprised how good I am with her. My point is though is that ANYONE who has played smash brothers for more than two days can pick up Luigi, Mario, Bowser, DK, or whoever and make them look good. All of the characters are too user friendly and once again to not welcome a competitive setting.
...Nope. You're wrong about every character being good. You're somewhat wrong about Sonic, and you're wrong about the "broken" characters. You're also paranoid about the "competitive setting" and somehow believe that Nintendo has a vendetta against it. Nintendo wanted the game to be more FUN to the average player. Honestly, I think they did a good job. HOWEVER, it is NOT as easy as you say it is to "master" a character by a LONGSHOT. You, my friend, are a biased source, having played Melee and probably becoming somewhat proficient in it, you are used to the tricks of the trade and know many of the basic skills necessary that can be applied to all characters. Your concept of how easy it is to "master" a character is extremely different to someone who has never played Melee and has only picked up Brawl "two days ago."

Spikes-

Some characters in Brawl have spikes EX-Marth, Falco, Toon Link, Olimar, etc) but not every character can be spiked. Whats the point in calling the move a spike if certain characters can not be spiked? Characters such as Meta Knight, Kirby, R.O.B and Pit can avoid spikes by simply just saving their jumps sparingly. Last I checked a spike was a move that goes straight down. When you see a volleyball player perform a spike does the ball surface up again after going straight down? No. Definitely not.
Once again, I'm wondering if this is a joke thread and I'm just not getting it. What about meteor cancels? They were in Melee, and they're still in Brawl.

Character Recoveries-

There are certain characters in Brawl that can literally travel to the other side of the stage and pop up on the other side. In Melee, it was only Kirby and the Ice Climbers could do a neat little Hyrule jump…but that’s about it. Characters such as R.O.B, Pit, Jigglypuff, MK, Kirby, and (I think DDD) can drop down and travel to the other side of most stages. So in a sense, they have the most broken recoveries every seen in Smash Brothers Video game.
...What happened to gimping? O,o

Little itty bitty stuff that makes no sense-

GAWS Key out prioritizes snakes rockets
Three shots of falcos lasers don’t stop snakes mini missle
Marth doesn’t outrange anyone anymore….he just has “good power” if you tip.
DDD chain throws 3-4 characters without having to move.
Ness and Lucas have an infinite death grab that shows poor game development.
The infinite jump: what is the point of doing this during a match?
The “crawl” wavedash: Are we sinking THAT low people? Come on…….
Snake's mini-missile is invincible and can only be "stopped" by Snake or by having it collide with an obstruction/it running out of fuel.
Marth outranges MANY characters. Wario's a huge example.
The deathgrab WAS a major oversight, and is simply a glitch. However, to go so far as to call it "poor game development" is a bit much.
Infinite Jump has only been just discovered. The same reaction was given when wavedashing was discovered if I remember right.
The crawldashing is a bit much, but it's a start. Heck, it might become useful somehow. Hell, it might make Falco's dtilt an actual USEFUL move.


I seriously wanted Brawl to be the new competitive game and I thought that in time Brawl would come out to be better than Melee…..I was wrong. Even if L canceling was in Brawl…it would not make it better because the whole defensive system is beyond broken as is…sidestepping would alter any point of L canceling.
...The defensive game is NOT broken if you know what you're doing. If it was, MK wouldn't be dominating tournaments, and Link and Pit would be.

I have been to around 10-13 Brawl tournaments (both big attendance…and little) and have never placed higher than 13th and would say im a fairly good competitor. I mained Meta Knight, Snake, GAW and Shiek but have grown sick of the game already because the game is too dry for me. I gave the game a chance and did not just sit back and board that Melee rebellion wagon…but the game is truly a failure. The general consensus I’ve gathered is that the people who failed to stand out in Melee are using Brawl as a way to prove to the community that they are a good smasher. I admit, I thought and wanted the same thing initially myself because I personally, am not good at Melee. But what is going to separate you from other people in Brawl? Everyone has seen a good snake, gaw, mk, etc and all those top tier people so to stand out as a good player in Brawl you’ll have to use Sonic or someone like Capt Falcon. No one would care how good you do with GAW or DDD because they’ll just think “Oh, hes good with his snake tilts” or “dam, his GAW’s bair spacing is very good.” Brawls too dry at this point and takes no quick reflexes or though process that melee does.
...It seems like you used the "top tier characters." I'm wondering if the characters are so easy to master like you say, why didn't you rank higher, or win?

Regardless of whether you thought melee was about l cancels, giant combos you can link, or just smash buttons….you’re very wrong. L cancels and advanced techniques were not the elements that made Melee stand out. It was quick thinking, characters and attributes that MADE sense, no CHEAP CHARACTERS (MK, Snake; I know some of you think they are both beyond cheap, don’t even lie about it.) etc. Did Melee have any cheap characters that WRECKED EVERYONE? No. The space animals did good against everyone except Marth and marth was a good matchup against Shiek…and shiek dominated everyone else…Melee was well balanced. GAW can not even L cancel three out of his five aerials, and shiek does not even need to l cancel her fair…its lagless. That is why shiek was so dominate even before L canceling was discovered.
...Replace Snake, MK, and D3 with Fox, Marth, and Sheik. Heck, you already did. You completely contradicted yourself in that paragraph.

Its sad to see people playing Brawl and conforming because I know deep down inside most of you reading this now….Miss Melee. Brawl is at this point the game that everyone is playing and I can not deny that at all….it is the truth but why play something I don’t like just to “fit in?” Actually the real question is, why arent you all playing Melee if you like it more? Oh yeah, I forgot….its what “everyone else is doing”
...No. Just no.

Brawl is the “bandwagon game”….not Melee. If people could play Melee….they could but like I explained earlier….the times determine what peoples values are and right now….people want to play the new fresh game….Brawl because that’s what people do.

If you want evidence for me to prove that most people prefer Melee, I will provide it for you.
...I'd love to see this evidence.


If this WAS just a joke topic, feel free to laugh at my obliviousness and I shall try to not be so gullible in the future. D:


Also, Melee's been around for 7 years. Brawl's been out 4 months. Of COURSE there're going to be people who love Melee and say Brawl sucks due to their lack of wanting to change. Give it time, and Brawl might even become just as technical, maybe even MORE technical and advanced as Melee!
 

Union of Darkness

Smash Ace
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Did Melee have any cheap characters that WRECKED EVERYONE? No. The space animals did good against everyone except Marth and marth was a good matchup against Shiek…and shiek dominated everyone else…Melee was well balanced.

Did Melee have any cheap characters that WRECKED EVERYONE?

and shiek dominated everyone else
There is a clear contradiction here.
 

Replacement100

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
104
Nice..... joke..... topic....?
I hope...

Props to Kitamurby for debunking the post, that is, assuming it's not a joke.

Man, I'd love to see a video game that you have made, then we can get talking about bad game development...
 

The Real Inferno

Smash Hero
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My god....this is like the longest version of this complaint I've ever seen. I thought a "Complaints about Brawl" thread was made so we didn't have to see this same topic fifty times and could place all the *****ing in one easy to reference place.

EDIT: On the "joke topic" thing for a moment. Has anyone else noticed often sometimes someone will post a big long *****y topic like this and then after being mocked for several posts come out that it was a joke, ever so conveniently as if they wish to then save face and look like less of a ******* than they were making themselves out to be?
 

Iron Thorn

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Going to Gamelon. I'm taking the Triforce of Spag
If this was a joke, it was so funny I forgot to laugh.
If this was serious, maybe you should go find some help.

I'm one of those casual players. I don't really mind how competitive or not Brawl is, I just want to have fun (and stop sucking in online matches).

Melee was good, but Brawl is an effing work of ART. It's the reason I bought a Wii.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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Not another thread on the same insane topic and the thread even failed in the OP when it claims the American release was the first release (or at least seems to think so) and that the Melee vs. Brawl debates weren't even raging by then.

In fact, the height of the Melee vs. Brawl debate was, in fact, before it was released in Northern America, IIRC.
 

Youko

Podcasting Pro
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The smash brothers community took a turn for the worst on March 9th, 2007 when Super Smash Brothers: Brawl came out for the Nintendo Wii.

To be honest, I stopped reading right there. Being off an entire year kinda lost your credibility.

But really, there is a Complaint Topic that is stickied, and threads like these are why it exists.


:026:
 
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