Mew2King
King of the Mews
DIing shuttle loop as opposed to not changes a lot. I remember shuttle looping Ally's Snake at 180% at the edge of Yoshi's Story and him living, and it wasn't even very staled. You underestimate DI a lot.
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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion
- Thread starter Unity Ruleset Committee
- Start date
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
You know, it IS possible that skill is NOT a simple, objective number. It's possible for Player A > Player B > Player C > Player A.
Rob_Gambino
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,206
So m2k, what specific openings do you look for when trying to punish snake? especially on ground with the nades, tilts, mortar, etc.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I don't like fighting snake on the ground
usually I'll wait mid range until I can bait a dash attack or mortar slide like seibrik does, or sometimes I'll just attack randomly when I "feel like" they won't expect it. Do not have much strategy for that. My skills in that matchup come from other aspects.
as far as Snake tips for fighting MK, I would say just save your shield for tornados, and do reverse grenade walk approaches a lot (they are VERY hard to beat). The only real way I ever punish that is to expect it, and dash grab. Otherwise, it beats any aerial approach, sword approach, or tornado approach.
usually I'll wait mid range until I can bait a dash attack or mortar slide like seibrik does, or sometimes I'll just attack randomly when I "feel like" they won't expect it. Do not have much strategy for that. My skills in that matchup come from other aspects.
as far as Snake tips for fighting MK, I would say just save your shield for tornados, and do reverse grenade walk approaches a lot (they are VERY hard to beat). The only real way I ever punish that is to expect it, and dash grab. Otherwise, it beats any aerial approach, sword approach, or tornado approach.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
that is opinion, but imo consistency is the most important, but again that's just my opinion. On average your tournament record is your consistency (more or less), and if you only lose to a small handful of people rather than a large amount that is good.
You underestimate snake a lot
Disclaimer: The BBR has nothing to do with this, it’s the Unity collective AKA the BBR-RC. Completely separate rooms. The BBR has not voted on any rules since Unity was installed.
As an individual I’ve been following and participated in Meta Knight debates since the start and it’s gotten to a point where I’m pretty sick of the whole discussion. It has harmed the American community more than any character itself ever could and I don’t think it will ever end. People drag in all sorts of arguments and personal attacks (both ways!), but to me it seems rather simple: Meta Knight is perceived as winning too much in the United States. In Europe and Japan he functions pretty much like every other top tier would, even if he is acknowledged as the best character. There are some key differences in stages and perhaps mentality, but I generally find peope very unwilling to explore the continental discrepancies in the first place.
Meta Knight makes about half the total money earned in American tournaments and has several top players consistently performing with him, most notably Mew2King, which has been documented rather thoroughly. Note that this in itself doesn’t mean anything, the data doesn’t make statements on its own. Other than Tuen I don’t think anyone has ever even bothered to do a proper statistical analysis, nor is there material to compare it to. Melee was dominated by a single character too for several long periods, but we didn’t keep monetary records and I don’t think other fighting games scenes do. What it comes down to is that there really isn’t any objective justification for a ban other than that the scene can collectively determine a cutoff point where they think it’s enough, provided TOs are willing to run with it. That’s about as legitimate as it can get and I’m not really against a (super) majority rule as long as people leave their salt at the door. I’ve always acknowledged that MK is very dominant in the US, but I simply don’t agree with most other arguments that get thrown into the mix. There’s nothing “factual” about character diversity and dominance as far as cutoff points are concerned, it all comes down to the values of players.
What I do know is that players like M2K, Ally and Anti deserve their wins and rely on more than their character to be as consistently good as they are. I hope that people can at least have that much respect, even if their character does get banned.
inb4europeknowsnothing
As an individual I’ve been following and participated in Meta Knight debates since the start and it’s gotten to a point where I’m pretty sick of the whole discussion. It has harmed the American community more than any character itself ever could and I don’t think it will ever end. People drag in all sorts of arguments and personal attacks (both ways!), but to me it seems rather simple: Meta Knight is perceived as winning too much in the United States. In Europe and Japan he functions pretty much like every other top tier would, even if he is acknowledged as the best character. There are some key differences in stages and perhaps mentality, but I generally find peope very unwilling to explore the continental discrepancies in the first place.
Meta Knight makes about half the total money earned in American tournaments and has several top players consistently performing with him, most notably Mew2King, which has been documented rather thoroughly. Note that this in itself doesn’t mean anything, the data doesn’t make statements on its own. Other than Tuen I don’t think anyone has ever even bothered to do a proper statistical analysis, nor is there material to compare it to. Melee was dominated by a single character too for several long periods, but we didn’t keep monetary records and I don’t think other fighting games scenes do. What it comes down to is that there really isn’t any objective justification for a ban other than that the scene can collectively determine a cutoff point where they think it’s enough, provided TOs are willing to run with it. That’s about as legitimate as it can get and I’m not really against a (super) majority rule as long as people leave their salt at the door. I’ve always acknowledged that MK is very dominant in the US, but I simply don’t agree with most other arguments that get thrown into the mix. There’s nothing “factual” about character diversity and dominance as far as cutoff points are concerned, it all comes down to the values of players.
What I do know is that players like M2K, Ally and Anti deserve their wins and rely on more than their character to be as consistently good as they are. I hope that people can at least have that much respect, even if their character does get banned.
inb4europeknowsnothing
popsofctown
Smash Champion
He often gets a variant of a soft ban in other continents, which is why continental comparison isn't all that useful. The most cutthroat continent available is America, and I think even America has tons of players that don't play MK because he's the best.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
Every single fighting game has a dominant character. It's not a bad thing for a character to take the lead. It's just that mk is too good to the point of completely changing a lot of game factors like rules, stages, character countering, pocket character, time outs, etc. and it has decreased Brawl as a competitive game into something like MK Battles, which Smash isn't supposed to be.
Also, while we have been giving mk all of these nerfs, mk still stands as an overdominant character. It's like whatever we do to him or Brawl, mk will always over dominate, which leaves up no option but to ban him.
Also, while we have been giving mk all of these nerfs, mk still stands as an overdominant character. It's like whatever we do to him or Brawl, mk will always over dominate, which leaves up no option but to ban him.
Jane
Smash Hero
marc, you make some great points. one in particular i want to point out-- there is not objective justification for a ban. really, when you look at a lot of real world issues, there is never an objective solution. it all comes down to people's views.
with that said, we as brawlers will never ALL come to an agreement. but the numbers speak for themselves. 75-25 is massive. i am almost certain that no other controversial topic in the world of smash will come close to that wide a gap. so, simply put, we need to ban metaknight because it is what an overwhelming majority of our fellow smashers want. its really is that simple.
with that said, we as brawlers will never ALL come to an agreement. but the numbers speak for themselves. 75-25 is massive. i am almost certain that no other controversial topic in the world of smash will come close to that wide a gap. so, simply put, we need to ban metaknight because it is what an overwhelming majority of our fellow smashers want. its really is that simple.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
It's not just what we want. It's also what we think is necessary for Brawl.
Luigi player
Smash Master
doesnt dedede go even with mk..?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
nobody read most of what i said in past 7 hours
I happen to live on another continent and while I can't speak for every country, the strong core countries (The Netherlands, France, Germany) don't soft ban him or anything. It might very well be true that Americans flock to the best characters more than we do, but note that the character getting first at every major international here is Marth (Mr. R/Leon). That means not just the quantity of MKs is different, the character also typically doesn't win it big. I get the same impression from Japan, though I can't judge if they frown upon his usage. That would be a rather baseless assumption though, as their Melee players never had such scrutinies and I believe the Japanese even commented at APEX that America's stage list simply caters to MK too much.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
No, we win. 80:20 Dedede favour.
-_-
Like seriously, I am ****ing sick of this BS of where absolutely ****ing every argument/opinion a player has has to be dictated and influenced by the character they play.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
No, nobody does. MK beats everyone because everything he does is too good.
Geez Luigi Player, get with the times!
Exactly. It also doesn't help that many people have something at stake here and are quick to point the same thing out in others.
It's not even so much what the majority wants as what TOs are willing to enforce, though a 3:1 ratio is fairly onesided. Alex Strife has been vocal about not banning MK, but he's not in the Unity collective and they have the power to make changes. If they think it's in the American community's best interest to ban MK (something the majority would support), then that's their call to make.
Jane
Smash Hero
i read it all. it would be in your best interest to
a.) learn to express your written thoughts in a more clear, coherent way. theres too much emotion in your walls of texts which leads to losing credibility.
and
b.) stop crying so much.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Also, c.) learn to use punctuation, paragraph breaks, and italics / underlines / bolding to visually differentiate parts of your posts so that we can actually read what's going on behind those walls of wails.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
M2K's posting is fine.
He's actually been pretty convincing this thread. If I wasn't opposed to LGLs on principle I'd be antiban by now.
He's actually been pretty convincing this thread. If I wasn't opposed to LGLs on principle I'd be antiban by now.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Meh, it's mainly been emotional argumentation about how unfair it is that he just got done doing all of this hardcore training, and how all of that would go (unfairly!) to waste if he has to switch to another character due to a ban (which, would be unfair, by the way).
Honestly, the arguments on both sides have been presented, analyzed, re-presented, digested, and post-analyzed so many times that it's probably statistically impossible for M2K to present any real-world, empirically-based information that we don't already know, besides how unfair it is that he would have to change characters.
...did I mention how unfair it is?
Honestly, the arguments on both sides have been presented, analyzed, re-presented, digested, and post-analyzed so many times that it's probably statistically impossible for M2K to present any real-world, empirically-based information that we don't already know, besides how unfair it is that he would have to change characters.
...did I mention how unfair it is?
popsofctown
Smash Champion
That's like a quarter of his posts.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Current metagame: You've got your A and B tiers who are like Morocco, Switzerland, and the U.S. Then you have your H tiers which are those really fat kids, and then you have MK who is Kenyan and like 100 yards ahead of you
popsofctown
Smash Champion
So you tell the Kenyans they can't come back next year.
That's what's happening.
That's what's happening.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
What? It's not like Kenyans are real people.
...wait, what were we talking about again?
...wait, what were we talking about again?
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Kenyans are people too. There's DNA evidence.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
that means you support this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0r0DkNiqxc
LGL should exist regardless of MK existing or not
(same for increased timer, same for getting rid of RC/Brinstar)
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
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- Messages
- 4,371
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaLEjFCuZE
I think this one is better because it shows what happens if you take that risk
I think this one is better because it shows what happens if you take that risk
Mew2King
King of the Mews
there's no reason not to plank when ur at kill % if you really want to win
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think this is why they did the poll. Apparently, only 25% were against the ban, so a lot of players will be fine with it, and of the 25%, do you honestly believe they will all quit when they can just pick up another character? Keep in mind that some people that voted no also don't main Meta Knight, so this wouldn't affect them much. It's just their two cents on whether or not they think he's ban-worthy.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Some people will also come back to the community
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
I don't think the LGL should exist at all.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13376599&postcount=102
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yes, so essentially the numbers of the community shouldn't be affected that much.
TheSlothStyle
Smash Apprentice
After seeing that abuse to the ledge from Will's Donkey Kong, there should be a Ledge Grab Limit. Oh and even though I have only been playing Brawl for about 4 months, it's awesome that you're talking to "teh little man".
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
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- Messages
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Planking is just as bad as walk off camping which is banned by banning stages with permanent walk offs. It is low risk high reward and it benefits the player who has the lead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaLEjFCuZE&t=2m30s
look what happens when ADHD tries to stop him from planking
TheSlothStyle
Smash Apprentice
I highly disagree. :/
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
That's funny, since that's the ONLY video that's ever brought up when LGL's are discussed that isn't a video of MK. Besides, one matchup does not a rule change make. So, that particular Olimar couldn't stop one particular DK's ledgestalling? Hmm, maybe that means that:
A ) one of those players needs to learn the matchup better
or
B ) the DK v Oli matchup might be firmly in DK's favor
...but either way, that is not sufficient reason to make a rule that affects the ENTIRE cast. Hell, Meta Knight's planking is not a sufficient reason to make a rlue that affects the entire cast. You know what would be sufficient reason?
When the entire cast could to that to each other, regardless of stage or matchup. Then, you could make a rule about it.
Mew2King, you didn't read my last post to you at all, did you? You know, the one where I refuted this already? Obviously not, since you patently ignored the part where I said all of this already AND didn't take the time to respond to it the first time. Top players FTW, right? -_-;
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
what about this^?