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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

Strong Badam

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Or we could ban the character, and play the game without him.
It's not either, play the game unchanged, or don't play it at all, things don't work like that.
Brawl is a game many players feel is worth playing, more so without a character who's players take over 50% of the pot from tournaments.
yawn. if you want to force the majority's will over the entire playerbase i don't give a ****, just don't try to say it's somehow justified objectively. you additionally stated that the game is worth playing... two of my suggestions included playing the game, one of which is without the worry of "a character who's [sic] taking over 50% of the pot from tournaments."
And as for limiting something used while recovering, you know there's Melee players who want a LGL for their game as well right?
Oh and do I have to mention wobbling? Or Peach Bomber stalling? Or Rising Pound stall? They're limited, just not in the same sense that ledge grabs are limited.
naturally given my previous statement, none of those rules should exist in my opinion. after Brawl's metagame found its way back to Melee (Amsah vs. Jman Pound 4, Hungrybox in general, Armada's Young Link), it was pretty quickly realized that actually enforcing a "no stalling" rule, even for somewhat specific cases, is unrealistic due to subjectivity and I can't think of an actual instance where it was enforced. wobbling is another issue entirely, though I and many other players don't think it should be banned.
additionally, actual Peach Bomber stalling isn't even possible IIRC. it's an artifact of a rule from a long time ago.
this topic is about the Unity Ruleset, which is only relevant to Brawl, however, so I'd like to avoid derailing the topic to Melee or other similar games if possible.
We're not switching to Project M. Stop asking.
sup red herring? lemme know when you want to actually try to refute any of my points.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Strong Bad, your original post heavily implied Melee/Project M supremacy. You shouldn't be surprised by the responses you got. It is nearly impossible to play any of the Smash games competitively without adding surgical rules, don't be daft, SB.
 

Strong Badam

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I didn't mention either game in my original post. I don't care if you start playing Pokemon Puzzle League or Starcraft. This isn't a Brawl vs. Melee topic, and I'm not going to try to make it one.
 

Strong Badam

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lol... I seriously do not think a LGL rule or MK banning is justified, and I'm explaining why, like Twinkie did. I suppose you can easily ad hominem me since I don't play Brawl competitively at the moment, but then again that'd be ad hominem, wouldn't it? ;)
 
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sup red herring? lemme know when you want to actually try to refute any of my points.
I don't, because I don't have to.

We'll keep playing Brawl with our surgical rules (hopefully reducing 2-3 to 1 here pretty soon) and having a great time and you'll keep trying to convince an entire community that it should stop and play either hacked Brawl or Melee. If you don't like Brawl don't play it.
 

Ghostbone

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lol... I seriously do not think a LGL rule or MK banning is justified, and I'm explaining why, like Twinkie did. I suppose you can easily ad hominem me since I don't play Brawl competitively at the moment, but then again that'd be ad hominem, wouldn't it? ;)
Of course you don't think that, you don't play the game, you have little experience in the matter.

You're acting like those youtube noobs who don't play competitively and think we should play with items, on, because they have no idea of the effect that would have on the game.
 

Strong Badam

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Supermodel From Paris, I'm not going to respond to your posts if you're going to try to repeatedly (and fruitlessly) change the subject away from my or anyone else's points. Nowhere in any of my posts here today have I mentioned that Melee or even Project M are superior alternatives to Brawl. My original post only outlined why I believe LGL's and banning any character should not be necessary, and explained several courses of action for if such were deemed necessary.
Of course you don't think that, you don't play the game, you have little experience in the matter.

You're acting like those youtube noobs who don't play competitively and think we should play with items, on, because they have no idea of the effect that would have on the game.
While I most assuredly don't have as much experience in playing this game competitively as you well-established (read: generally, loud) members of the community are, I did indeed play the game competitively for a time — wait a minute.
You're acting like those youtube noobs who don't play competitively and think we should play with items, on, because they have no idea of the effect that would have on the game.
outside of the banning of random factors such as items and polarizing stages or stages that randomize results more than desired, you shouldn't need anything else to ensure the competitive integrity of the game.


I don't play the game competitively (anymore) because of many factors; the effectiveness of planking and other such tactics is only one item on a very long list. The average maturity of its fanbase being slightly lower is also one of them (and I do mean slightly; the Melee community has its fair share of loud and obnoxious). I'll give the Brawl community the benefit of the doubt and assume that at this point the loud people are mostly Smashboards Heroes and don't actually attend relevant tournaments, similarly to the Melee ones.
There are times where I do play this game, but I do so casually, and have quite a bit of fun doing so. The game is not bad, or awful, or terrible, or anything of the sort. If my ulterior motive was really to convince you highly important members of the Brawl community to instead join my community, I'd probably be storming in here explaining that Brawl's air dodge system contributes to defensive play being largely favored among many other such examples (despite the fact that whether or not defensive play being favored being a good or bad thing is subjective) and as such Brawl is teh suck.

I've played this game competitively. I've hacked the **** out of it. I'm in the Smash Lab. I understand its mechanics most likely more thoroughly than you do. Your claim that my (incorrectly assumed) little experience in the matter makes my opinion irrelevant is itself about as relevant as if I were to mention your September 2010 join date and question your experience in the matter because of it. It's a cop-out to an argument, and you should feel bad for making it as opposed to actually responding to my points. I hope the discussions in the BBR have more content and thought, than this. I'd be appalled if a Smash Back Room discussion were going on about the MK ban issue and a Metaknight main made a worthy argument with relevant examples and then his post was quoted, with simply "Of course you say this; you use MK. I have now successfully refuted your argument. Aight who else wants to say something about this?" Such logic would pit (no pun intended) the players who don't main MK and are anti-ban against the players who are pro-ban, which aside from some notable exceptions, are mostly non-MK players. It's pretty obvious why this logic doesn't really work.
While such weak as **** arguments are certainly easier to make than actual ones (and it's certainly fairly easy to just out-talk someone who is putting effort into posts when he is outnumbered as is the case here; I wouldn't be surprised if this occurs), it'd behoove you as both a player and as a person to put a little more effort into something you seem to care about so fervently. I have done so and I'm largely indifferent to the outcome of the MK ban issue.

My opinion on LGL and MK, however, is still an informed one, and the fact that I don't play the game competitively is mostly irrelevant. If anything, it should strengthen my points, as I am unaffected emotionally either way by the MK ban, and look at it in a less influenced manner.

If you want to play this game competitively and enjoy it, you should put up with any such (already established as should not be necessary to ban) bull**** that's in it, similarly to a low tier main dealing with his character's weaknesses and outplaying his opponents. I know this because I use a bad character in the game I play competitively. Are there truly unbeatable tactics in the game? If so, then should it really be played competitively? I think not, and have explained why I think so. Defend your game/viewpoint properly, or be a piece of **** that can't contribute healthy discussion on the Internet about something they supposedly care about. It is your choice.
 

Strong Badam

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It's slightly off topic, but if you could provide some examples that fit such a description I'd be much more convinced.
 

Kewkky

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Grabbing with ICs in melee isn't THAT easy, grim. It's also not "practically unbeatable" if lots of people beat it all the time. Else I could just practice it and waltz right into a tourney and win with this "practically unbeatable" tactic.
 

Strong Badam

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ehh to be fair he did say without a percentage limit. in most melee tourneys where wobbling is legal there's a percentage limit so that Ice Climbers players can't just get a grab when stock is even then wobble for 8 minutes. it's a pretty good point
 

Strong Badam

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yo there's a space in my name wtf Grim_Tuesday

EDIT: resolved, we're now best friends & live on a ranch in Utah
 

Marc

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Wobbling without a percentage limit would be rather silly, but it's feasible to not get grabbed by ICs and, unlike in Brawl, they die rather easily themselves if you get the right moves in. I find myself generally sympathetic to Strong Bad's point of view, though I do think some avenues of abuse are left unexplored in Melee. We have generally always sucked it up though and he is right in saying we didn't implement as many surgical rules.

The poll is about as legitimate as a public poll can be. No one should be taking the absolute numbers at face value and there are some other issues, such as those wanting to overturn the status quo being more motivated to vote. What we can all take away from this is that there is a solid majority one way, and that's honestly good enough for a public poll where you don't know who exactly is voting what and why.

I main R.o.b. and Lucario and I know how you feel.

Hate going to tournaments, especially in California, and either losing or winning to an MK then having to go up against another and another. Game should just be called (SSBM) Super Smash Bros. Metaknight. People rely on him way too much. When I go against any character besides an MK and when I win there is a good chance s/he busts out with an MK for the next match.
Without MK they will go Dedede or something else against your main combination, which consists of a high and mid tier character. Either way I'm not really a fan of selfish reasoning.
 

Ghostbone

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While I most assuredly don't have as much experience in playing this game competitively as you well-established (read: generally, loud) members of the community are, I did indeed play the game competitively for a time — wait a minute.
-insert trolling-
Learn to realise what a comparison is.
I've played this game competitively. I've hacked the **** out of it. I'm in the Smash Lab. I understand its mechanics most likely more thoroughly than you do. Your claim that my (incorrectly assumed) little experience in the matter makes my opinion irrelevant is itself about as relevant as if I were to mention your September 2010 join date and question your experience in the matter because of it. It's a cop-out to an argument, and you should feel bad for making it as opposed to actually responding to my points. I hope the discussions in the BBR have more content and thought, than this. I'd be appalled if a Smash Back Room discussion were going on about the MK ban issue and a Metaknight main made a worthy argument with relevant examples and then his post was quoted, with simply "Of course you say this; you use MK. I have now successfully refuted your argument. Aight who else wants to say something about this?" Such logic would pit (no pun intended) the players who don't main MK and are anti-ban against the players who are pro-ban, which aside from some notable exceptions, are mostly non-MK players. It's pretty obvious why this logic doesn't really work.
While such weak as **** arguments are certainly easier to make than actual ones (and it's certainly fairly easy to just out-talk someone who is putting effort into posts when he is outnumbered as is the case here; I wouldn't be surprised if this occurs), it'd behoove you as both a player and as a person to put a little more effort into something you seem to care about so fervently. I have done so and I'm largely indifferent to the outcome of the MK ban issue.
It's not ad hominem lol, ad hominem would be if I tried to refute facts based on the fact you play Melee, I don't remember trying to do that. I'm saying that you're not a part of the Brawl community, so you wouldn't have the knowledge of why we think MK should be banned, not that MK should be banned, because you play Melee. Surely you can realise that being a part of the community would broaden your knowledge of the subject and give you a more informed opinion?

In fact, I've never even tried to refute your argument, past asking for justification, and asking you not to be hypocritical.
My opinion on LGL and MK, however, is still an informed one, and the fact that I don't play the game competitively is mostly irrelevant. If anything, it should strengthen my points, as I am unaffected emotionally either way by the MK ban, and look at it in a less influenced manner.
It's entirely relevant, but whatever, ignore the obvious.
If you want to play this game competitively and enjoy it, you should put up with any such (already established as should not be necessary to ban) bull**** that's in it, similarly to a low tier main dealing with his character's weaknesses and outplaying his opponents. I know this because I use a bad character in the game I play competitively. Are there truly unbeatable tactics in the game? If so, then should it really be played competitively? I think not, and have explained why I think so. Defend your game/viewpoint properly, or be a piece of **** that can't contribute healthy discussion on the Internet about something they supposedly care about. It is your choice.
Again, why should we put up with it, when it lessens the competitive value of the game?
It's exactly like saying we should put up with all the broken stages in the game. (oh but in your previous post, you made a special exception to stages, what's your justification for that?)
 

Marc

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I'm pretty sure that any personal attack to discredit a person rather than their argument can be considered an ad hominem.
 

Ghostbone

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I'm pretty sure that any personal attack to discredit a person rather than their argument can be considered an ad hominem.
Ad hominem is specifically trying to negate the truth (or support the truth, it works the other way around as well) of something based upon the status of the person making the argument.

Edit: Oh actually I guess I did use ad hominem, in one instance when I was referring to Strong Bad as a hypocrite.
But I'd wonder whether he would really want to push forward an argument which would also apply to Melee.
 

Strong Badam

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No, Marc is correct. Directly from the link I conveniently provided you:
Again, why should we put up with it, when it lessens the competitive value of the game?
To your question, I respond with another. How did you determine this, when "competitive value" is not quantifiable? You've given little justification for this, only assumed it to be true and used it here as your main point. If competitive depth can be defined as (and commonly is) "the amount of unique situations in the game," then surely removing a character decreases the number of of unique situations... but I digress.
It's exactly like saying we should put up with all the broken stages in the game. (oh but in your previous post, you made a special exception to stages, what's your justification for that?)
Generally, the randomness of items & stages lead to inconsistent tournament results. Although I'm of the opinion that items should definitely have been tested competitively in Brawl (they were tested extensively in tournament in Melee before they were eventually banned; Brawl is much different from Melee, yet the community banned items from the start without any relevant data having been able to be collected on the subject), I think that's a topic for another thread/day. Since we're trying to make a game that wasn't intended to be competitive competitive, inconsistent tournament results is undesirable (<-- that's the main point). That's what casinos are for. Stage legality is a pretty controversial issue, though, so I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here for a sec.
So where do we draw the line? Referring to Melee, good ol' grandpa Kish came up with the "Turnip Threshold," a theoretical threshold where a stage's randomness is deemed acceptable because it does not affect the outcome of a game as much as the randomness of Peach's turnip plucks do, assuming we do not want to ban characters (which we don't cuz that's mean and hurtful to teh children). I guess there are other random aspects in Brawl such as Olimar's Pikmin or something. Something like that. The main issue with it is it isn't quantifiable and not everyone can agree on how much turnips affect the game. A little history for you.

To the hypocrisy comment, I did admit that Grim Tuesday's point was a good one, and then didn't say much else on the subject. I hadn't considered it before, but it's true.
 

T0MMY

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If you guys think Strong Bad is incorrect then prove it with intelligent argument. Anything else and you're publicly admitting he won the argument.

I'm anti-ban on the stance of "brokenness", but I would be agreeable to a ban to keep the game from being "gay". I wouldn't condone imposing out-of-game banning/limiting just because scrubs can't win.
 

Mekos

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Mk should not be banned. Armada is right. Many of you just want an easier way to the top and think you can get there with mk's not being able to participate. Ugh it makes me wanna puke the level of passion some of you all have who want mk banned.

Instead of trying to advance your game you want to just get rid of a character. And if we pull vids of most of you, yer playstyle probably hasn't changed in months or even years. So stop crying and put some effort into getting better. Most people I have played in all my smash career starting in 2010 play the same way. I have met very few people who are advancing there game. Use me for an example if you want. If u compare vids 3 months apart, there is new tactics I have developed being used.

I'm gonna use my boy ADHD as an example cuz he's a "pro" and I see him complaining the most about Mk and may have helped in started this whole thing. You people have mastered a playstyle and complain when it doesn't work. Instead of tweaking it. Many people have told ADHD small flaws in his already great playstyle. One example, he always goes for super risky spikes. Against Nairo on delfino at clash 1 he tried to spike him while Nairo was sharking. Cmon! He did it over and over. Yer not gonna spike him. He didn't adapt in that situation. Smash is a game about adapting and reading your opponent. Yes, sometimes u need to have the lead or your opponent will gay u and run. But alot of characters do that besides mk. Gosh people don't do this to our community! Open your eyes and don't be selfish. I used to cry about mk too but I changed my mentality and got better. I'm a LUCAS and with the techniques and playstyle I have created I think the matchup is almost EVEN!!

I want to beat the best(some of them play mk), not get rid of them. It will definitely damage the community to take out mk which WILL cause the top mk's to quit. Are u guys watching School is in session. It's not even mk banned but without the top players there, I am so BORED watching it. No offense.
 

Supreme Dirt

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Instead of trying to advance your game you want to just get rid of a character. And if we pull vids of most of you, yer playstyle probably hasn't changed in months or even years.
My playstyle changes completely all the time, your point is invalid.

I'm actually expecting the poll results to be ignored and MK to remain legal.
 

Doc King

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We've been trying to get rid of mk by metagame, but it never worked and mk actually got stronger and stronger over time.
 

Omni

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You can't "get rid of" the best character in the game.

What exactly are you trying to say by that statement?
 

Maharba the Mystic

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shut up mekos. you saw that m2k posted that same EXACT arguement and your trying to sound like your some god of brawl who is so much better than everyone else but the stone cold fact is your not some god of brawl and while your lucas style is different it doesn't change, you just make smarter reads like every other pro/top character main. nobody cares that you did good when you teamed with m2k (who can win double's with a computer falcon on his team) and nobody cares that your the best lucas because lucas is a ****ty character. your opinion is not the be all end all word of the prophets, and the fact that you think the MK mu with lucas is even is sad and ****s on whatever credibility you have. so does saying there are no pros at siis6 when
1. there are plenty there
2. the fact that it's not mk banned ****s over whatever point you were trying to make
3. the fact that you like watching a **** load of MK matches makes me worry about your health.

also, plenty of top level MK players have secondaries they can switch too and will not quit brawl, you've got people like ally and atomsk and vinnie who have characters like wario DDD ICs g&w snake and i can guarentee they won't be quitting just because of the MK ban.

TL:DR
nobody cares that the best lucas likes watching MK dittos and if a few solo mk mains rage quit this game, oh well, new players will rise and join the community and this game will mimic something that's kind of balanced.
 

Kewkky

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Stop crying and get better nubs.
That's what I read.

Funny thing is that you'll probably go through the exact same thing as every other top player has gone through: go even and/or beat lots of MKs you face, start calling pro-ban people out because you can do it and they can't, then slowly start losing once other MKs learn the MU and your mixups.

There's only so much you can change in your playstyle, Mekos. This game doesn't have hundreds of possibilities, in the end it all boils down to the same thing: hitting your opponent until they die three times per match, and avoiding death meanwhile. You'll start playing differently, they'll get used to it, then you'll change around again and they'll beat you again, until you stick with the formula that works best for you once they have your character figured out.

It's always been this way. Vs Diddy's early days, vs Wario, vs ICs, vs Snake, vs Diddy's more recent days... They all had a golden age of anti-MK hype, then they declined because as the MKs adapt and learn the opponent's characters and what they can do, the MU gets easier for them. You beating MK may just be a one-way deal, you play far more MKs with varying strategies than MKs play pretty much any Lucas main.


Also Mekos, stop acting so elitistic. It makes others dislike you. *looked at maharba's post*
 

popsofctown

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Mk should not be banned. Armada is right. Many of you just want an easier way to the top and think you can get there with mk's not being able to participate. Ugh it makes me wanna puke the level of passion some of you all have who want mk banned.

Instead of trying to advance your game you want to just get rid of a character. And if we pull vids of most of you, yer playstyle probably hasn't changed in months or even years. So stop crying and put some effort into getting better. Most people I have played in all my smash career starting in 2010 play the same way. I have met very few people who are advancing there game. Use me for an example if you want. If u compare vids 3 months apart, there is new tactics I have developed being used.


These assumptions get tiring.
 

Kewkky

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I can't wait to use RC and Brinstar in peace.

Well, not like I've played an MK in either of them yet, but I want to see other characters there. I can't remember the last time I saw two different non-MK characters duking it out on either of the stages... Feels so long ago.
 

Govikings07

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"I main MK"

Haha I've seen many players that try not to go under this even though that is all they ever use in tournaments!
 
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