Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Z1GMA]

Ledge Pressure/Shenanigans
What do you guys normaly do when the opponent is hanging on the ledge?
Mario, for example, use to execute a falling Nair to cover multiple options sometimes.
What do you find yourself doing as Ganon?

 

[Blobface]

U-tilt is a bit character dependent, but it's devastating against characters who's recoveries don't sweetspot the ledge I.E. Shulk.

Otherwise, I like to stand about a character length away from the ledge so I can simultaneously cover every ledge option. If they standard getup I'm right there to grab them, if they roll I can turn around and F-tilt, if they jump I can U-air, and if they ledge attack I'm far enough away to get a free F-smash. It's especially effective at higher %'s where an F-tilt after a roll sends them all the way to the other ledge and resets the situation.

Bonus: If someone has lost their ledge invincibility, you can land a wizkick spike without going off the stage, and believe me, they aren't coming back from that, both in game and out of game.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Forcing them off the ledge by getting on the ledge yourself leading to a Bair is always fun.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Something I've seen other Ganons do that I haven't yet integrated into my game is run off the ledge into Choke. It's good for baiting a ledge roll as Bair threatens their other options.

 

[Kyogokudo]

I either wait like Blobface said, using grab, flame choke and ftilt mainly, or I go for a nair or a fair to cover their jump. One thing I like to throw sometimes is a retreating SH Warlock Blade. If the opponent just get up the timing will be too strict to roll behind Ganon or even jump, leaving them with either spotdodging, shielding or taking the hit. Sometimes people will feel pressured and will go for the shield, which might result in a shield break or at least good shield damage. I doubt I'll use this thing outside of friendlies though, it's a gamble to see how much the opponent fears Ganon.

 

[Blobface]

Do you guys think intentionally going after shield breaks is a viable tactic*? A lot of Ganon's attacks have high shield damage, and U-smash in particular is very safe on block. It's not like you'll always get a shield break, but you can reduce their options in some situations to 1) eat a hit 2) have your shield broken and eat a much stronger hit.

*instead of using grabs to punish shielding, using high shield damage attacks?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pikachu's a funny matchup. It's like a smaller Sheik.

He has possibly the best off stage game amongst the current cast, and that makes it hard for Ganon. I don't find it difficult to avoid gimp or edgegaurd attempts against much of the cast, but some characters like Sheik and Pikachu have some very good options. Both those characters are also hard to grab, jab, hit out of stun, etc due to their sizes abd animations on their moves.

Against Pikachu we lose 40:60, but Pikachu is so light and has small damage input that the match can be turned around at any time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Do you guys think intentionally going after shield breaks is a viable tactic*? A lot of Ganon's attacks have high shield damage, and U-smash in particular is very safe on block. It's not like you'll always get a shield break, but you can reduce their options in some situations to 1) eat a hit 2) have your shield broken and eat a much stronger hit.

*instead of using grabs to punish shielding, using high shield damage attacks?

Generally no. It can be helpful to be aware of when your opponent has a weakened shield, as knowing when you can challenge it with aerial Wizkick or throw out FSmash can be helpful. It's inherently unreliable due to powershielding and the fact that shields regenerate so quickly. USmash shield pressure is nice, but it doesn't last long, and it's situational. Also heads-up players can just spotdodge. It's nice when it works out, but just isn't reliable enough to count on as a strategy. You're generally better off taking the guaranteed damage from a grab.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bonus: If someone has lost their ledge invincibility, you can land a wizkick spike without going off the stage, and believe me, they aren't coming back from that, both in game and out of game.

Tried this on a For Glory scrub. It is the most amazing thing. They ragequit afterward. Hysterical.

 

[adom4]

I'm starting to like Flame chain less & less the more i use it, the start up on this move really kills it for me.
I haven't tried it yet but what do people think here about using flame wave against Rosalina (and maybe a few other characters)?
It seems decent in theory because of the super armor & the blast that hurts luma, also it KO's her mad early.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Flame Wave would be good if it had any range to it. As it stands it moves nowhere and decreases mobility. And flame choke tech chases are too good to give up.

 

[Z1GMA]

Do you guys think intentionally going after shield breaks is a viable tactic*? A lot of Ganon's attacks have high shield damage, and U-smash in particular is very safe on block. It's not like you'll always get a shield break, but you can reduce their options in some situations to 1) eat a hit 2) have your shield broken and eat a much stronger hit.

*instead of using grabs to punish shielding, using high shield damage attacks?

Shield Breaking (or at least weakening their shield) is definitely a thing with Ganon in this game, unlike Brawl.
And like you said, Usmash is both good and safe for this.

 

[adom4]

Flame Wave would be good if it had any range to it. As it stands it moves nowhere and decreases mobility. And flame choke tech chases are too good to give up.

I know, i'm thinking of using flame wave against characters that flame choke isn't good against like Rosalina.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

But it´s so slow and like MagiusNecros said, it doesn´t go as far as Flame Choke. It´s not likely you´ll get to use it often. It does offer another strong kill move but Ganondorf kills with almost everything he does anyways. I´d stick with Flame Chain against Rosa. I just don´t like Flame Wave too much D-:

 

[MagiusNecros]

The hit box on flame wave is also bowser flying slam small. Aerudo won't happen. Only use it if you get hard punishs.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Don't see how you'd get close enough to Rosa to land Flame Wave on her, especially if she's running Shooting Star Bit like she should be. Even with the threat of Dropkick to keep her from spamming it that move is pretty annoying for Ganon.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Don't use flame wave. I have tried to make it work and it doesn't. Only viable applications is ffa and smash run.

 

[jmanup85]

If Flame Wave had super armor throughout the move like Little Macs side b custom it would be better

 

[MagiusNecros]

If Flame Wave had super armor throughout the move like Little Macs side b custom it would be better

Even Donkey Kong got an armored headbutt.

 

[Blobface]

Heck, if Ganon had a better grab range Flame Wave would be useful. It's just that losing Ganon's best shield pressure option is way too much of a loss.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Buffing Ganon´s grabrange to a reasonable level would help him so much man. How come the King of Evil´s arms turn into dinosaur arms when he tries to grab someone?

 

[Blobface]

Buffing Ganon´s grabrange to a reasonable level would help him so much man. How come the King of Evil´s arms turn into dinosaurs arms when he tries to grab someone?

Doesn't even make sense either. I mean, just look at this.

He doesn't even need a Bowser grab range or anything, he just needs a grab that doesn't whiff a point blank.

 

[jmanup85]

Do we have a guide or anyone is familiar with ledge trumping and what options I have during one? I use the bair but sometimes they jump higher than I can reach them or maybe I'm not doing it fast enough. I think if I uair I might be able to get them but idk. I am working on this and after wards I'm gonna slow down my game to get better with inputs and better neutral play as well. For now I'm working on ledge play and how to capitalize on opposing recoveries.

 

[Shogger]

Do we have a guide or anyone is familiar with ledge trumping and what options I have during one? I use the bair but sometimes they jump higher than I can reach them or maybe I'm not doing it fast enough. I think if I uair I might be able to get them but idk. I am working on this and after wards I'm gonna slow down my game to get better with inputs and better neutral play as well. For now I'm working on ledge play and how to capitalize on opposing recoveries.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of what determines whether or not your Bair is guaranteed is how soon you grab the ledge after your opponent. Within a certain amount of frames, it usually works, whereas if you are late then your opponent will be able to jump or airdodge.

 

[Blobface]

Do we have a guide or anyone is familiar with ledge trumping and what options I have during one? I use the bair but sometimes they jump higher than I can reach them or maybe I'm not doing it fast enough. I think if I uair I might be able to get them but idk. I am working on this and after wards I'm gonna slow down my game to get better with inputs and better neutral play as well. For now I'm working on ledge play and how to capitalize on opposing recoveries.

@Vermanubis is definitely the best person to ask for this, but what Shogger said is correct. The sooner you trump someone, the less frames they have.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Mewtwo opinions?

 

[Blobface]

Mewtwo opinions?

If you mean the matchup, it's even at worst (for Ganon), and Ganon's favor at best. Mewtwo will never survive past 80 or so % against Ganon, and he just doesn't have anything to make up for that. Shadow Ball is dangerous, but it's not really a "campy" projectile.

Mewtwo is powerful sure, but that doesn't mean anything when you're against the most powerful character in the game.

 

[Dark Phazon]

If you mean the matchup, it's even at worst (for Ganon), and Ganon's favor at best. Mewtwo will never survive past 80 or so % against Ganon, and he just doesn't have anything to make up for that. Shadow Ball is dangerous, but it's not really a "campy" projectile.

Mewtwo is powerful sure, but that doesn't mean anything when you're against the most powerful character in the game.

Hmmm i kinda think it might be DDD the strongest...he is ridiculous...
Hey i gotta good shirld break match to sure you lot later Ganon is the best.

 

[Z1GMA]

A character receives 20% additional knockback when hit while charging a smash attack

So, guys, Ganon i already a powerhouse, but if we could find good ways of utalizing this, Ganon'd be a monster, espacially if you combine this with rage.
Seems very situational, but the thought is delicious.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So, guys, Ganon i already a powerhouse, but if we could find good ways of utalizing this, Ganon'd be a monster, espacially if you combine this with rage.
Seems very situational, but the thought is delicious.

Have had it happened on multiple occasions.

The results always ended up with my Wii U exploding.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So, guys, Ganon i already a powerhouse, but if we could find good ways of utalizing this, Ganon'd be a monster, espacially if you combine this with rage.
Seems very situational, but the thought is delicious.

Gotten a few Wizkick kills from people prematurely charging smashes in order to trap my landing this way. It's quite handy.

 

[Z1GMA]

Gotten a few Wizkick kills from people prematurely charging smashes in order to trap my landing this way. It's quite handy.

Also, Ledge Drop DJ Fair at ppl who charge smashes at the ledge.

edit:
And if someone is charging a Smash Attack next to you while you're shielding, don't be afraid to simply Shield Drop and Ftilt him/her.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

I prefer the most disrespectful option for opponents desperate enough to dare charge a smash attack on the ledge against the king of evil which is the Ganoncide.

Jokes aside, I tend to jump -> aerial wizkick most of the time against those people, it kills so early it´s not even funny (killed a villager at around 65% with it with some rage)

Dark Fists could also work. You just tank the smashattack with it´s superarmor frames at the beginning and it kills stupidly early too, especially with the increased knockback

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks to Luigi's Fireball nerf, fresh DA will actually go through it at long range instead of clanking. However at close range where it still does 6%, you will still clank.

If only Luigi's entire fireball did 5% or our DA did 1 more damage, then our matchup against Luigi would be a lot more tolerable because then we would be able to punish it in midrange with Dash Attack. Since Mario's Fireballs and Doc's Pills do less damage than Luigi's, you can consistently go through them with fresh DA.

However the other thing you can do is try to clank his fireball with D-smash if you are in range to also hit Luigi. Because the first hit of D-smash does less damage, you don't reel as much when clanking, and it also has a lot of hitstun, allowing you to get interesting combos when you clank.

 

[Z1GMA]

Is it only me, or does Ganon's shield allow for easier Power Shielding than most other characters'?
Sure, it could be because I'm used to the character, but still, it's so disjointed (at least horizontaly).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is it only me, or does Ganon's shield allow for easier Power Shielding than most other characters'?
Sure, it could be because I'm used to the character, but still, it's so disjointed (at least horizontaly).

I guess vs projectiles, I see what you're saying.

Though Ganon doesn't benefit much from say...crouch powershielding in contrast.

 

[Blobface]

While we're talking about wonky Ganon-specific things, am I the only one that feels that the timing to tech Ganon's Flame Choke is stricter than a regular tech? This isn't even just online either, if I get Flame Choked during a local battle, I still have trouble timing it.

 

[Z1GMA]

While we're talking about wonky Ganon-specific things, am I the only one that feels that the timing to tech Ganon's Flame Choke is stricter than a regular tech? This isn't even just online either, if I get Flame Choked during a local battle, I still have trouble timing it.

Yes, it's harder than a regular Tech.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

What do you guys think about the second hitbox of Ganon´s dashattack? I think it´s better to try to land the late hitbox unless you go for the kill. It has really low knockback and pops them up right in front of you and unless they are someone with a really quick aerial (looking at you, Luigi and Yoshi), they are in for lots of damage (late DA>Dthrow>Down B/Uair/Nair etc). And later on at higher %, late DA is a good setup for an Uair/Usmash if we read the airdodge because of it´s low vertical knockback.

I apologize if this was brought up already.

 

[HeavyLobster]

What do you guys think about the second hitbox of Ganon´s dashattack? I think it´s better to try to land the late hitbox unless you go for the kill. It has really low knockback and pops them up right in front of you and unless they are someone with a really quick aerial (looking at you, Luigi and Yoshi), they are in for lots of damage (late DA>Dthrow>Down B/Uair/Nair etc). And later on at higher %, late DA is a good setup for an Uair/Usmash if we read the airdodge because of it´s low vertical knockback.

I apologize if this was brought up already.

Love sourspot DA. Such a nice setup. I once got a Flame Choke ->sourspot DA off the roll away->Dthrow-> Wizkick-> tipman gimp to 0-death a Falcon. Even when things don't go quite that smoothly it can net you a nice 20%-30% pretty easily.