Theory regarding the Phantom

[Ixbran]

From what I've some have argued that the Phantom armor could be an Assist Character, others have said it could be a new special attack for Zelda. While reading these arguments back and forth over and over, a thought entered my head and wanted to share it.

Is it an Assist, or an Ability of Zelda's? My theory is that its Both.

My theory is that, with Peach and Rosalina, both of whom have specials that involve bringing out a being that they are in charge of (Peach's Toad, and Rosalina's Lumas), I thought maybe Zelda was given a similar ability. Mainly due to the fact that all three of them are rulers (Peach is a Princess, Zelda is technically a Queen in TP, just not having had her coronation yet, and Rosalina is god)

for Peachs Toad, its just quickly bringing him out and using him to block an attack, and then countering with a mushroom spores. For Rosalina and Luma its the whole Puppeteer thing, when she does an attack the Luma will do an attack same time as her.

My thought is if the Phantom is something similar, a pawn summoned by Zelda to fight for her, how would it be set apart from the other a fore mentioned characters? Simple: it acts independently and is more akin to an assist trophy, than a standard ability.

Zelda calls out the Phantom and then from there, it acts as its own character, running around and damaging her opponents on her behalf. This could be a double edged sword sort of thing though: You can bring it out and it fights for her, making her more deadly, how ever you have very little control over what it does and who it attacks, and it can be attacked and defeated by other players.

the idea that it could be a character specific assist stems from how characters pull out items for specials, like Links bombs, Peaches turnips, Diddy Kongs banana peels, ect.

But then there's the whole argument of;

why does it appear in this screen shot:

but not this screen shot:

Despite her being posed the same in each image, if my theory is plausible its simple: she can only have one out at a time, and doing the special that would be used to summon the Phantom would have her perform the action, but have nothing happen. Sort of like how if your playing as Olimar, if you keep pressing Neutral Special over and over again to bring out more pikmin, he eventually stops after getting a certain amount. But if you keep pressing the button, he continues to perform the action of reaching down to pull something out of the ground, but pulling up nothing.

It could be that, in that second screen shot, she already has the Phantom out on the battle field and is currently dealing with the 4th fighter in that match, while Zelda, Link, and Peach are the main focus of the image. the Phantom and the 4th fighter merly being off screen. I imagine performing the action to summon the Phantom to battle while its already out would cause it to come to attention and come too her side.

How would this fit with Zelda keeping her ability to change into Sheik, again fairly simple. Make it so summoning the Phantom is her new Down Special, and make it so the Sheik transformation is one of her taunt actions. Effectively making it so Sheik can get a new Down Special as well. Possibly even something to do with her harp from Ocarina of Time.

but as i said, its just a theory.

 

[ぱみゅ]

We really do NOT need another thread of these....

 

[ToothiestAura]

Let's make another thread about this. One where we speculate if it's actually part of Link's moveset.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Let's make another thread about this. One where we speculate if it's actually part of Link's moveset.

No it's clearly one of fox's moves duh

 

[Frostwraith]

And here we go again... >_>

This has already been done to death, but whatever, I will say this again for the nth time.

There are hints pointing towards the Phantom being an Assist Trophy, same for it being a new move for Zelda. In other words, no conclusion can be drawn about the Phantom's role. /thread

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's my theory I posted in the other thread with some changes made in presentation.


Using Down B, Zelda summons a Phantom Knight to her side. Hold Down B again and Zelda will go into her Jojo pose.

During this, Zelda is completely defenseless, but she controls the Phantom Knight. Whether or not the Phantom Knight can jump or not is anyone's guess.

When she releases B, she goes out of the pose into this to order a strike which is possible as it is easy to seamless transition to that physically:

The above theory would explain why Zelda does that same pose in one screenshot with it and without it in another - the Phantom Knight is simply off screen. Meanwhile, the AT summoning pose and this one are very different in body position. While it is possible that the pose may have been redone. Nothing necessarily suggests one way or the other.

As for an additional theory, Din's Fire has been revamped to where the fireball (or possibly more) do not explode automatically. Rather, you set it/them and trigger their explosion using her side taunt which just so happens to feature a fireball in her hands.
These two theories would allow Zelda to have that desperately needed zoning capability with some influences from Carl Clover and Mu-12 of BlazBlue fame - because Rosalina is totally a Smash version of Guilty Gear's Eddie.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Oh, come on, everything about this has been said already, we have to wait for confirmation now. We don't need another thread.

I think the only thing I didn't talked about is how he is modelized. He seems to show some polygons, like Skull Kid and Ashley. Also, like them, his fingers seems to be jointed (but it's clearly not sure, from what we can only see). But it's the same for Toad. But the phantom is also bigger.

Almost every statements can be turned in favor of the move or the AT.
-"Look, it's AT Pose!" VS "Look, it's a new pose!"
-"It's what Zelda do, so she must do it!" VS "It's what another Zelda do, she must not do it!"
-"It's not on the screen so it can move on it's own!" VS "It's not on the screen so it's not a Zelda move!"
-"Sheik is not relevant, new down B!" VS "Sheik is relevant, AT!"
And probably others I forget.

I think we really discussed enough about this.

 

[Ixbran]

I think its funny how every comment is on how this thread isn't necessary, for this reason or that. Yet not one person has actually commented on the theory it self.

If all your going to do is come in here and comment without reading, whats the point in commenting at all? I like to think i put effort and thought into my theory, yet not one of you have made a comment on what I had to say, and i find it rather sad and pathetic that people will just jump to conclusions thinking they know what its about, when they dont, and it clearly shows.

And here we go again... >_>

This has already been done to death, but whatever, I will say this again for the nth time.

There are hints pointing towards the Phantom being an Assist Trophy, same for it being a new move for Zelda. In other words, no conclusion can be drawn about the Phantom's role. /thread

This comment is a perfect example of someone who obviously didn't read it at all. If they had, they wouldn't have made this comment at all.

Is it an Assist, or an Ability of Zelda's? My theory is that its Both.

If your going to comment on this thing, at least bother to f'ing read it.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yes, we read the first post. And it's what every people think about, if it's a move: It act independently. Hence, why we don't comment the thoery itself, as it brings nothing new.

 

[Sharkarat]

I think its funny how every comment is on how this thread isn't necessary, for this reason or that. Yet not one person has actually commented on the theory it self.

If all your going to do is come in here and comment without reading, whats the point in commenting at all? I like to think i put effort and thought into my theory, yet not one of you have made a comment on what I had to say, and i find it rather sad and pathetic that people will just jump to conclusions thinking they know what its about, when they dont, and it clearly shows.
This comment is a perfect example of someone who obviously didn't read it at all. If they had, they wouldn't have made this comment at all.
If your going to comment on this thing, at least bother to f'ing read it.

It's because your idea isn't new, I think the idea that i could work like an Assist has been mentioned at least once in one of the threads. Will you may be descriping it in more detail you don't bring anything new. And by just using Kuma's post as example it's far from the only way it could work.

Is it an Assist, or an Ability of Zelda's? My theory is that its Both.

And the real debate is about it being part of Zelda or not, not how it works. That's just the arguments. So your theory really is just a variant of it being a special, because working similar to an assist doesn't make it not a part of Zelda.

 

[9Volt]

Wait OP...Rosalina is a God? What?

 

[_Darkpit_]

The most important thing for me is, that the side b in SSBB ( Dins fire ) will be replaced by a new attack.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The most important thing for me is, that the side b in SSBB ( Dins fire ) will be replaced by a new attack.

Well, it's back.

 

[KoRLumen]

Phantoms are notorious for one-shotting things. Who's to say it isn't a new Final Smash? xD

 

[Sonicguy726]

Phantoms are notorious for one-shotting things. Who's to say it isn't a new Final Smash? xD

she isn't glowing though

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, characters like Wario don't glow, nor don't have a darker background when using their final smash...

But the arrows of light are way cooler.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Yet not one person has actually commented on the theory it self.

That's because your theory is the main theory. People who think the Phantom is a special move think it's her Down Special and that it would be a summon, not that she would be controlling it. Then there's a smaller subset who thinks it could be her Side Special or a Smash Attack. Then there's the people who think the picture is just a well-placed Assist Trophy (like me, we are the most sane).

You, however, have failed to bring anything new to the table with your "theory."

 

[9Volt]

My Theory is that the phantom is down b and now to turn in Sheik you need Final Smash or Taunt plus something (like Zero Suit Samus)

 

[KoRLumen]

Well, characters like Wario don't glow, nor don't have a darker background when using their final smash...

But the arrows of light are way cooler.

I was thinking more like Pit, whose FS is also a summon-type thing.

But I agree, arrows of light are way better, and more true to canon, really. I mean, Phantom Zelda was never a summon. She WAS the Phantom, per se.

 

[9Volt]

Sakurai already take some liberty in the past with chars...

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

But why taking liberty when you already used something canon? Zelda is way more known for using the arrows of light. She gives them to Link in OoT and ALBW, and she uses them in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks.
Plus, the transformation with Sheik is unique, being a transformation whenever you want (Samus must have a Smash ball) and without any downside (pokémons must be on ground, and have a stamina system, forcing the player to use all of them). It would be bad to change it and have the same mechanics as Samus. They would both lost their transform originality.

 

[Sonicguy726]

I'm still on the fence about this since why would they give zelda that? but it looks to have been redesigned to look like TP which would be fine if toon link wasn't playable

 

[KoRLumen]

... but it looks to have been redesigned to look like TP which would be fine if toon link wasn't playable

Personally, I think the Phantom looks like that in order to fit the rest of the game, not specifically for the TP aesthetic. Frankly, I don't even see where everyone's getting this TP vibe from. All I really see is proper lighting/reflections as opposed to the cel shading from the DS games. It's more of a natural transition.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Personally, I think the Phantom looks like that in order to fit the rest of the game, not specifically for the TP aesthetic. Frankly, I don't even see where everyone's getting this TP vibe from. All I really see is proper lighting/reflections as opposed to the cel shading from the DS games. It's more of a natural transition.

Well it's from the toon games and it's clearly made to look less toony which they didn't really do for toon link, he is still really simple, so there's no reason this shouldn't be

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, there's mainly more details, like the fact the metal is shining. This, and how the the details on the armor looks like... detail on an armor, compared to the artwork where it simply looks painted on it.

Toon Link also get some changes:

Of course they are less visible, but the fabric have fold, and the belt have new details. It's the same kind of changes, thought the phantom's one are more visible.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well, there's mainly more details, like the fact the metal is shining. This, and how the the details on the armor looks like... detail on an armor, compared to the artwork where it simply looks painted on it.

Toon Link also get some changes:

Of course they are less visible, but the fabric have fold, and the belt have new details. It's the same kind of changes, thought the phantom's one are more visible.

Still he should be less realistic if he's representing ST since the conductor link didn't get tons of detail either

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, the conductor is ported directly, of course he have less details.

WW Toon Link still keep this details on the 3DS:

 

[KoRLumen]

Well it's from the toon games and it's clearly made to look less toony which they didn't really do for toon link, he is still really simple, so there's no reason this shouldn't be

That's a good point. However, comparing WW Link's incarnation to Smash 4's, you can see they added in a lot of subtle details as well. You can clearly see the cross stitches and folds that make up the fabric of his tunic, for example, a detail absent in his WW incarnation. These are natural changes to fit in with the HD aesthetic ... though since TL was a simple character to begin with, like you said, the changes are marginal. And TL isn't cel-shaded in Smash 4 either.

However, bringing a sentient suit of armor into the same aesthetic necessitates more than just a few subtle changes. Though Smash 4 is vibrant and colourful, it is also realistic (well... as realistic as it can get, anyway). Metal armor should shine. Designs and patterns should be embossed or bevelled instead of appearing to be painted. The lighting and shading engines don't discriminate, so it wouldn't make sense for the Phantom to keep its cel-shading.

Edit: Lol ninja'd.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well, the conductor is ported directly, of course he have less details.

WW Toon Link still keep this details on the 3DS:

Well they could've added some detail to him but they kept him the same, I'm guessing to show that he is from ST, so why wouldn't they keep the phantom like he was, while toon link is a playable character so they basically have to make him at least a little more detail

 

[Sonicguy726]

That's a good point. However, comparing WW Link's incarnation to Smash 4's, you can see they added in a lot of subtle details as well. You can clearly see the cross stitches and folds that make up the fabric of his tunic, for example, a detail absent in his WW incarnation. These are natural changes to fit in with the HD aesthetic ... though since TL was a simple character to begin with, like you said, the changes are marginal. And TL isn't cel-shaded in Smash 4 either.

However, bringing a sentient suit of armor into the same aesthetic necessitates more than just a few subtle changes. Though Smash 4 is vibrant and colourful, it is also realistic (well... as realistic as it can get, anyway). Metal armor should shine. Designs and patterns should be embossed or bevelled instead of appearing to be painted. The lighting and shading engines don't discriminate, so it wouldn't make sense for the Phantom to keep its cel-shading.

Edit: Lol ninja'd.

But if they were trying to represent ST you'd expect it to keep the ST style like conductor link did unlike toon link who is a playable character and basically needs to mix well with the others while assists and background objects not so much

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Because, as KoRLumen and I said, Toon Link is made to look like a young boy in tunic, and the armor is made to look like an armor. Made of metal, it's shining and have "carved" details.

Dedede cap doesn't shine in the Kirby games, but it does is SSB4.



Also, it's seems to bother no one that Skull Kid have changes as well.

The clothes are more torned, the belt is a little different and the shoes are... well really different. Also, there's white straps on the gloves.

So why changes on one should be nothing, but on another, it automatically mean it's part of a playable character?

 

[Sonicguy726]

Because, as KoRLumen and I said, Toon Link is made to look like a young boy in tunic, and the armor is made to look like an armor. Made of metal, it's shining and have "carved" details.

Dedede cap doesn't shine in the Kirby games, but it does is SSB4.



Also, it's seems to bother no one that Skull Kid have changes as well.

The clothes are more torned, the belt is a little different and the shoes are... well really different. Also, there's white straps on the gloves.

So why changes on one should be nothing, but on another, it automatically mean it's part of a playable character?

no the phantom has a very definite style, the toon style, while skull kid has the more realistic style so it works for him, his change is nowhere near as big as the changes to the phantom and I never said it means that it is, it's just something I noticed

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, if we had to respect totally the art style of the original games, Ashley should be in 2D, don't you think?

Again, the Phantom just follow the same logic than Toon Link: add some details to be less simple. Of course it's clearly visible on the phantom, it's entirely made of metal. But the other additional details, like T.Link are minor. They are there, but... it's not a big deal.

Also, there's an array of assist trophies in brawl with uptated look.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well, if we had to respect totally the art style of the original games, Ashley should be in 2D, don't you think?

Again, the Phantom just follow the same logic than Toon Link: add some details to be less simple. Of course it's clearly visible on the phantom, it's entirely made of metal. But the other additional details, like T.Link are minor. They are there, but... it's not a big deal.

Also, there's an array of assist trophies in brawl with uptated look.

The phantom has clearly gained wayyyyyy more detail than toon link and looks more like TP rather than one of the toon games which it is supposed to be representing and although toon link did gain some details they were very minor as he still looks incredibly cartoony

 

[KoRLumen]

At any rate, I think it's highly improbable that the Phantom is an extension of Zelda for canonical reasons.

Though speaking of canon... The Phantom doesn't have eyes... so... Huh.

The phantom has clearly gained wayyyyyy more detail than toon link and looks more like TP rather than one of the toon games which it is supposed to be representing and although toon link did gain some details they were very minor as he still looks incredibly cartoony

Actually, I think the changes are just as marginal as those to Toon Link. Changing fabric to look more like fabric is hardly noticeable, but the Phantom is made entirely out of armor. Simply changing the way the lighting engine effects armor is as marginal a change as you can get, but because the Phantom is made entirely out of it, it gives off the illusion that much more was changed. As for the details on the armor, again, I believe it's just an extraneous detail. In the artwork, it's implied that those patterns aren't painted on. Making the transition to an HD game, then, the patterns shouldn't appear painted on - it's necessary, in fact, to emboss or bevel them, so it doesn't give off the wrong impression.

 

[Sonicguy726]

At any rate, I think it's highly improbable that the Phantom is an extension of Zelda for canonical reasons.

Though speaking of canon... The Phantom doesn't have eyes... so... Huh.

But it's also the pink one which zelda is known to possess (I haven't played spirit tracks so I don't know if she always posseses the pink ones or if they turn pink when she possesses them)

So could someone explain to me how this works?

 

[KoRLumen]

But it's also the pink one which zelda is known to possesses (I haven't played spirit tracks so Ii don't know if she always posseses the pink ones or if they turn pink when she posseses them)

Yeah, I know. But when she possesses them, they get eyes, which the pink Phantom shown clearly doesn't have.

Man, I don't even know anymore LOL

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Should I mention Waluigi in Brawl that have the same detail overhaul (this word exist, right?) as Mario and Luigi?

Still, if the phantom looks like TP as you said (but shining effect doesn't exist only in the TP world), it's still lack something really important: proportions. It have cartoonish proportions. It have two new things, like Toon Link: realistic material (fold on fabric, shining effect on metal), and more details.

It's nothing like a Darknut, for exemple.

Spoiler

And as the Toon style seems to be a whole thing, WW link replacing SP Link if WW is on the stage (and having Alfonzo on the background instead) even if they are not the same, I seriously doubt Sakurai will start to merge the TP and SP Zelda.
If it's Zelda's colors, it's more a hint toward having Toon Zelda as an assist, possesing a phantom. It can be it.

 

[KoRLumen]

Should I mention Waluigi in Brawl that have the same detail overhaul (this word exist, right?) as Mario and Luigi?

Still, if the phantom looks like TP as you said (but shining effect doesn't exist only in the TP world), it's still lack something really important: proportions. It have cartoonish proportions. It have two new things, like Toon Link: realistic material (fold on fabric, shining effect on metal), and more details.

It's nothing like a Darknut, for exemple.

And as the Toon style seems to be a whole thing, WW link replacing SP Link if WW is on the stage (and having Alfonzo on the background instead) even if they are not the same, I seriously doubt Sakurai will start to merge the TP and SP Zelda.
If it's Zelda's colors, it's more a hint toward having Toon Zelda as an assist, possesing a phantom. It can be it.

That's what I've been thinking. But like I said, the problem is that the Phantom doesn't have eyes - something crucial that distinguishes it from the other Phantoms.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, I think the color scheme is more important to understand it's Zelda than the glowing eyes, but this time, it's my opinion.

Edit: There's also another thing that bother me with the idea of merging the TP and the SP Zelda: timelines.

OoT and TP exist in the same timeline (well, OoT is in every timelines), but how the TP Zelda can use things that don't belong in her universe?

I know there's connections between the timelines (Majora's Mask in ALBW for exemple), and that in a crossover, logic don't really apply, but... I dunno, it really bother me