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Pretty wild that someone can say this about Ganon now. In Smash 4 and Brawl, you were lucky to encounter a Ganon online.The main source of agony for me really just is more how ridiculously common he is
Whats a "stairway from Falco"?(As I've seen someone put it, more or less "Don't like getting killed at 40% by Ganondorf? Well, I don't like getting killed from 0% by stairways from Falco!")
I meant that dumb ladder combo he can do. My bad.Whats a "stairway from Falco"?
I hear he has a decent Uair ladder in ult or something.You're good! I dont even know what you mean by "ladder combo" though. I tried to find some examples on youtube, but the only videos titled "falco ladder combo" are from Sm4sh. Is the combo just about the same from game to game?
That's a huge lie. Cause with the Triforce of Power, he can only be killed off with the Master Sword.This thread sounds like salt to me. Ganon is strong, yes, but he's not invincible.
Thread's over, folks. Nothing more to see here.If Fsmash spamming Dorf "mains" on QuickPlay give you trouble, good luck taking on someone who can play a proper neutral game lmao
Hey....When I think of "too powerful" Ganondorf isn't really what comes to mind . . . tbh there aren't really any characters that I associate with that thought right now. There are a few underwhelming characters though, like little mac
M2k seems to disagree with you about Ganon being low tier.Ganon is still low tier lol.
His disadvantages from the past are all still there, just some slightly harder to exploit, but make no mistake he still has em.
Projectile characters are still his nightmare, he still gets comboed to hell and back by rush downs, and he still has a lot of unsafe moves. And he (along with falcon) still can get screwed by a decent opponent when recovering if they’re good at wall techs, as their up specials still put them in the perfect position to get gimped if they grab someone who’s good at teching.
Really just a few moves have become “slightly” safer, and his reward for getting a good read is way better, which is exactly how it should be. If anything ganon needs more buffs though, he needs his old ganoncide back, he needs to have a safer recovery (at least don’t give opponents a guaranteed way to gimp him for landing the move, make wall techs off it impossible)
M2K also thinks Bayonetta is better than Cloud, the Belmonts are high tier, and that D3 is bottom 15. Ganondorf isn’t low tier though. Mid tier at worst, low high tier at best.M2k seems to disagree with you about Ganon being low tier.
Well its early on in the meta. Understandable that top players going to widely disagree with one another and have varying opinions on how good particular characters are. I don't think anything is really concrete atm (atleast mostly).M2K also thinks Bayonetta is better than Cloud, the Belmonts are high tier, and that D3 is bottom 15. Ganondorf isn’t low tier though. Mid tier at worst, low high tier at best.
He is the only top or even mid level player to share these opinions. Also, objective data can disprove these claims as well as theory craft even. Dedede has achieved consistently great results across players like Zaki, Peli, and Big D hitting top 8 at major tournaments. Bayonetta has been nerfed far more than Cloud and is nowhere close to him in viability. Cloud basically just has 15 second limit and nair for any major nerfs. He still has up air juggles [the nerfs balance out now that you only have one air dodge in Ultimate], Amazing range, a great matchup spread, very safe moves, great dash speed, and an okay projectile, Hot take though: I believe Bayo IS actually a [lower] mid tier. The belmonts have achieved mediocre results, have a horrible recovery without the neutral to back it up, bad disadvantage, and meh frame data. Also you used m2k's opinion as evidence in your previous statement and then backed up and said that it's too early for top players to have correct perceptions of characters.Well its early on in the meta. Understandable that top players going to widely disagree with one another and have varying opinions on how good particular characters are. I don't think anything is really concrete atm (atleast mostly).
Incorrect, I never at all used his opinion as evidence against him. Why are you straw-manning me? I never once said that M2k's opinions were fact or that he was wrong because m2k said this. I'm not even defending m2k or his opinion. I just thought it was a humorous observation since he thinks highly of ganon and the other guy think's he low tier trash. Most top players agree Ganon is definitely not low tier though and it seems you have also reached this consensus. So why are you going after me when its the other guy you have a disagreement with? You clearly misunderstood the meaning of my comment and why I made it in the first place.He is the only top or even mid level player to share these opinions. Also, objective data can disprove these claims as well as theory craft even. Dedede has achieved consistently great results across players like Zaki, Peli, and Big D hitting top 8 at major tournaments. Bayonetta has been nerfed far more than Cloud and is nowhere close to him in viability. Cloud basically just has 15 second limit and nair for any major nerfs. He still has up air juggles [the nerfs balance out now that you only have one air dodge in Ultimate], Amazing range, a great matchup spread, very safe moves, great dash speed, and an okay projectile, Hot take though: I believe Bayo IS actually a [lower] mid tier. The belmonts have achieved mediocre results, have a horrible recovery without the neutral to back it up, bad disadvantage, and meh frame data. Also you used m2k's opinion as evidence in your previous statement and then backed up and said that it's too early for top players to have correct perceptions of characters.
I apologize but be realistic, responding to a comment with “but top player #400 says...” usually implies that you’re agreeing with them and citing them as counter evidence. You then further forced upon yourself this trope by defending M2Ks extremely bad takes in your next post and not clarifying whatsoever.Incorrect, I never at all used his opinion as evidence against him. Why are you straw-manning me? I never once said that M2k's opinions were fact or that he was wrong because m2k said this. I'm not even defending m2k or his opinion. I just thought it was a humorous observation since he thinks highly of ganon and the other guy think's he low tier trash. Most top players agree Ganon is definitely not low tier though and it seems you have also reached this consensus. So why are you going after me when its the other guy you have a disagreement with? You clearly misunderstood the meaning of my comment and why I made it in the first place.
I was just saying in that second post that it's too early to say that all the characters placements are objective. I don't even agree with m2k putting Ganon high tier. Like I said I just thought it was humorous how one person thought highly of the character while the other thought he was garbage. It was to show how widely opinionated the meta still is and how many characters players (not even just top players) disagree with one another in terms of placement. Im well aware anyone can use their favorite top player as an excuse for a certain placement of the character. That was not the intention of why I made that post. I don't think that's a good argument for why a character is good. I'm well aware.I apologize but be realistic, responding to a comment with “but top player #400 says...” usually implies that you’re agreeing with them and citing them as counter evidence. You then further forced upon yourself this trope by defending M2Ks extremely bad takes in your next post and not clarifying whatsoever.
F smash is definitely safe on shield if its slightly spaced and they don't have something like Lucina nair OOS.M2K also said that Ganon's Fsmash is safe on shield. I think we can disregard his opinions on the man from here on out.
Also, "Ganon Tier Containment Thread" when. All I have to offer is "solid mid, both a lot better than people think he is and not as good as people think he is".