Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
At least as long as Olimar isn't having fun, neither is his opponent?
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Against Yoshi, anyone who doesn't really care about pressure-sustaining or hard hit-boxes can deal with him quite well. Hard trades for hard punishes, or can dance around him.
The Ivan Ooze tier kind of represents this factor in the game. A piece of cheese that can completely nullify a game-plan. Yoshi has a game-plan that's very much 'go-for-the-face' and it's what works wonders for him since he can convert so well off anything and trades favor him so strongly. Much like a Wario, but less stream-lined and benefits more from risks since he CAN handle pressure in return, where Wario can't as universally towards converting,.
Where this back-fires, is many characters like to use this against people too. Snake, Peach, Samus, Luigi, Char, even Falcon-leaning characters can work this against him effectively. They thrive off trades harder than a Yoshi, and might not out-maneuver him in mobility, but force him to maneuver certain ways or he'll get hurt for his offense more than it hurts them.
TL the other extreme, it's where a couple good hits can put Yoshi in trouble (same as other extreme), but meanwhile Yoshi is almost setting himself up for hits in the game he has to play, chasing the TL. Same with a Lucas who Yoshi can try walling and pressuring but inevitably will have to do the chasing while holding off hard-pressure himself since he's out-maneuvered and out-ranged in enough ways to count. Or ZSS who can out-maneuver him, and any DJC Aerial is a stunned face since it's so tracking and committing. All of those characters can even just DD Grab Yoshi if he whiffs a DJC, since there's no way out for him on those commitments and it's how he 'has' to move since stationary-play will get him killed, and they can maneuver from range.
So characters Yoshi can't really play his natural-game against. He has to change his game-plan, and they thrive off that naturally.
Summary
Essentially, this is where a solid Dash game functions as a fall-back for people like Peach, Snake, and Wario, who attempt Yoshi's aggressively-passive game too (staying safe while moving AT the opponent offensively whenever possible), who might get platform camped by a Falco and need to ground themselves into certain 'zones' of aggression (floating or DD/WD/Shield/ground game from Peach for example).
I'm simply not confident (yet, at least) that I'll be able to balance an effective chasing game (able to follow and convert with enough variation and safety to make simple DD's and maneuvering (from them) NOT as viable an option to lift the option-elimination I work on) while remaining a threat against their counter-actions at the same time (able to be non-committal in all options as to not be punished for a diverse enough selection of actions, from everything like swatting away projectiles and following up, to turning back to avoid counters so I can actually bait things properly in a pursuit/corner the opponent)
tl;dr, He HAS to commit to things, and the holes are there, and Yoshi WILL be forced to play a lot of 'covering up his own holes' game, just not to the extreme centralization of Falco and other pseudo-pressure thriving characters, so the abusing of those holes will play a big factor.
This will come from forcing him to play a chasing game to get commitment from him that benefits you, or using anything stream-lined against him to test his dynamics in game-plan.
Think opposite of Mewtwo, where he'll Jab > HC F-Air your shield, and if you roll, you get SH Up-B > F-Air'd into a combo for it. So the balance against that is between challenging him in risk that he'll bait something OOS and Grab you/hit you first, or try to get away BUT he can follow anywhere so it doesn't matter.
- Establishing you'll challenge him translates into giving you a chance to get out and punish him (for trying to catch an expected-but-not-coming challenge from you now).
With Yoshi it's more like, he'll Jab > DJC N-Air your Shield, and if you challenge him you risk getting hit (just like Mewtwo), but because he CANNOT follow you as efficiently, the balance will come from testing your way out of situations, and him knowing you WILL try to get away, and follow you, vs punishing him for TRYING to follow you, when you're actually going to just hit him OOS/WD Grab, while he tries to DJC a F-Air somewhere or DD's for a moment himself.
- Establishing you'll get out translates into giving you a chance to punish him for trying to follow you (instead of continuing normal pressure that he expects you'll escape).
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Olimar 4
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
Threw Olimar in there for now.
He's actually pretty decent, like, not 'terrible' or anything (though I guess nobody really is 'terrible' so much as just not as good, you know, whatever)
The simple-game and punishes that he DOES get are pretty significant, but so much is reliant on the abuse of Side-B baits (throwing things on people to rack up damage, forcing them to whack it off or away or something < where you punish), flower bud growth (managing those beastly Purple's for kills while Red's and White's rack up damage, etc), and getting his FACE in there with N-Air or D-Tilt out of his DD game.
That's suck obscure stuff!
It's not much, but he has to stay so grounded (low F-Airs etc included) and that massive-stage crazy-maneuvering cast around him might not be overly bothered by his partial-cheese unless the Oli is over-aggressive. Over-aggression is a fine-line, and whether Oli can do it or not is the only remaining factor...
So, can Oli play aggressive effectively if he HAS to? As in, he needs to take a stock off that 80% opponent when he only has 30% (same stock or not), to keep/gain/whatever the lead/catch-up, can he FORCE a play when someone is being safe, while using his obscure stuff?
I'm thinking glass-canon hit-and-miss is hard-core where this is going to go. lol
AKA, the Oli-game is going to be a lot of pre-meditated decisions on WHEN to try making plays vs not, WHEN it's worth it. More-so than any other character in the game. Not HOW to make what plays, or what plays to make when, but WHEN to go for anything to begin with, and if he can delay (in a way) those short-bursts between hard-decisions WITHOUT giving it away to the opponent that he's vulnerable.
I'm not talking about Pikmin management or stage-control alone, but straight up, do you want to take stage-control at all? Hold off and manage Pikmin at all? Camp at all? The pre-actions, not the actions.
Hope that makes sense.
Totally functional, and the Oli will have lots of fun.
The opponent will either be annoyed or slaughter him, and it could go both ways in a single set too.
The Ivan Ooze tier kind of represents this factor in the game. A piece of cheese that can completely nullify a game-plan. Yoshi has a game-plan that's very much 'go-for-the-face' and it's what works wonders for him since he can convert so well off anything and trades favor him so strongly. Much like a Wario, but less stream-lined and benefits more from risks since he CAN handle pressure in return, where Wario can't as universally towards converting,.
Where this back-fires, is many characters like to use this against people too. Snake, Peach, Samus, Luigi, Char, even Falcon-leaning characters can work this against him effectively. They thrive off trades harder than a Yoshi, and might not out-maneuver him in mobility, but force him to maneuver certain ways or he'll get hurt for his offense more than it hurts them.
TL the other extreme, it's where a couple good hits can put Yoshi in trouble (same as other extreme), but meanwhile Yoshi is almost setting himself up for hits in the game he has to play, chasing the TL. Same with a Lucas who Yoshi can try walling and pressuring but inevitably will have to do the chasing while holding off hard-pressure himself since he's out-maneuvered and out-ranged in enough ways to count. Or ZSS who can out-maneuver him, and any DJC Aerial is a stunned face since it's so tracking and committing. All of those characters can even just DD Grab Yoshi if he whiffs a DJC, since there's no way out for him on those commitments and it's how he 'has' to move since stationary-play will get him killed, and they can maneuver from range.
So characters Yoshi can't really play his natural-game against. He has to change his game-plan, and they thrive off that naturally.
Summary
Essentially, this is where a solid Dash game functions as a fall-back for people like Peach, Snake, and Wario, who attempt Yoshi's aggressively-passive game too (staying safe while moving AT the opponent offensively whenever possible), who might get platform camped by a Falco and need to ground themselves into certain 'zones' of aggression (floating or DD/WD/Shield/ground game from Peach for example).
I'm simply not confident (yet, at least) that I'll be able to balance an effective chasing game (able to follow and convert with enough variation and safety to make simple DD's and maneuvering (from them) NOT as viable an option to lift the option-elimination I work on) while remaining a threat against their counter-actions at the same time (able to be non-committal in all options as to not be punished for a diverse enough selection of actions, from everything like swatting away projectiles and following up, to turning back to avoid counters so I can actually bait things properly in a pursuit/corner the opponent)
tl;dr, He HAS to commit to things, and the holes are there, and Yoshi WILL be forced to play a lot of 'covering up his own holes' game, just not to the extreme centralization of Falco and other pseudo-pressure thriving characters, so the abusing of those holes will play a big factor.
This will come from forcing him to play a chasing game to get commitment from him that benefits you, or using anything stream-lined against him to test his dynamics in game-plan.
Think opposite of Mewtwo, where he'll Jab > HC F-Air your shield, and if you roll, you get SH Up-B > F-Air'd into a combo for it. So the balance against that is between challenging him in risk that he'll bait something OOS and Grab you/hit you first, or try to get away BUT he can follow anywhere so it doesn't matter.
- Establishing you'll challenge him translates into giving you a chance to get out and punish him (for trying to catch an expected-but-not-coming challenge from you now).
With Yoshi it's more like, he'll Jab > DJC N-Air your Shield, and if you challenge him you risk getting hit (just like Mewtwo), but because he CANNOT follow you as efficiently, the balance will come from testing your way out of situations, and him knowing you WILL try to get away, and follow you, vs punishing him for TRYING to follow you, when you're actually going to just hit him OOS/WD Grab, while he tries to DJC a F-Air somewhere or DD's for a moment himself.
- Establishing you'll get out translates into giving you a chance to punish him for trying to follow you (instead of continuing normal pressure that he expects you'll escape).
Here's my best speculation, for now.
All positions are pretty general anyway, give or take 5 and if it turns out to be more on either end, I consider it close enough. haha
It'll have arrows for rising and dropping, and always a 1-4 ratio of evenly matched and polarized match-ups, forcing me to think more accurately on little details. woop
10 of each (1/2/3/4) change with lists
1 = even spread (can basically solo)
4 = polarizing (counters both ways)
^ rise 1 position from most recent list
v drop 1 position from most recent list
A (For Sure Good Enough Tier)
Lucas 1
Yoshi 2 ^
Wolf 1 v
Wario 1
Mewtwo 2 ^
Luigi 2 v
Peach 2 ^ ^ ^
Pikachu 2 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Fox 1 ^ ^
Zero 2 v
Kirby 2 ^
Metaknight 1 v v v v v
Mario 3 v v v v v v v
Falco 1 ^
Pit 1 v v
Captain Falcon 2
Snake 3 v v v
Lucario 3
Toon Link 3 ^ ^
Charizard 4 v v v
Sheik 1 ^ ^
Sonic 1 ^ ^
Diddy Kong 3 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Link 2 ^
Marth 2 ^
Ivysaur 4 v v v v
Donkey Kong 4 v v v v v v v v
Bowser 4
Squirtle 3
Ike 3
ICs 4 v v v
Ness 4 v
Roy 3 v
Zelda 4 ^ ^ ^
Olimar 4
Jigglypuff 4 v v
Ganondorf 4 ^ ^ ^
Samus 3 v v
Mr. Game & Watch 3 v v
ROB 4 v
S (Permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
King Dedede 1 v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
Threw Olimar in there for now.
He's actually pretty decent, like, not 'terrible' or anything (though I guess nobody really is 'terrible' so much as just not as good, you know, whatever)
The simple-game and punishes that he DOES get are pretty significant, but so much is reliant on the abuse of Side-B baits (throwing things on people to rack up damage, forcing them to whack it off or away or something < where you punish), flower bud growth (managing those beastly Purple's for kills while Red's and White's rack up damage, etc), and getting his FACE in there with N-Air or D-Tilt out of his DD game.
That's suck obscure stuff!
It's not much, but he has to stay so grounded (low F-Airs etc included) and that massive-stage crazy-maneuvering cast around him might not be overly bothered by his partial-cheese unless the Oli is over-aggressive. Over-aggression is a fine-line, and whether Oli can do it or not is the only remaining factor...
So, can Oli play aggressive effectively if he HAS to? As in, he needs to take a stock off that 80% opponent when he only has 30% (same stock or not), to keep/gain/whatever the lead/catch-up, can he FORCE a play when someone is being safe, while using his obscure stuff?
I'm thinking glass-canon hit-and-miss is hard-core where this is going to go. lol
AKA, the Oli-game is going to be a lot of pre-meditated decisions on WHEN to try making plays vs not, WHEN it's worth it. More-so than any other character in the game. Not HOW to make what plays, or what plays to make when, but WHEN to go for anything to begin with, and if he can delay (in a way) those short-bursts between hard-decisions WITHOUT giving it away to the opponent that he's vulnerable.
I'm not talking about Pikmin management or stage-control alone, but straight up, do you want to take stage-control at all? Hold off and manage Pikmin at all? Camp at all? The pre-actions, not the actions.
Hope that makes sense.
Totally functional, and the Oli will have lots of fun.
The opponent will either be annoyed or slaughter him, and it could go both ways in a single set too.
Olimar has some interesting quirks about him. The amount of damage you can do with 2+ Flower pikmin latched onto somebody WHILE you're also in the process of a combo is astounding. You can also do some cool things with the white pikmin explosion during the middle of combos, or after an attack, to get free followups. Perfect example is after a Dthrow, you time it to where the person explodes right before they can tumble/recover out of stun, and get a free Fair or Uair.
My opinion of Olimar (decent size post inc)
1. It takes too long for Flower Pikmin to bloom. The process from Leaf to Flower takes approximately 30 seconds right? I'd shave that down a bit. Even with the improved Pikmin health, I feel like that's a bit long to wait for an improvement. Or if anything, at least speed up the Bulb transformation to like 10 seconds instead of 15. The nuance of Leaf < Bud < Flower is appreciated, but could probably happen a bit faster.
2. I think he would have been better served with new tilts and a new DA. His Utilt though you guys did a great job, the other stuff not so much imo. For a Dash Attack, what I thought specifically would be kind of decent is something where he lunges forward with a Pikmin. Whichever Pikmin you used, would give the move different properties. He could be holding it by the stem or by the feet, kind of like a sword or weapon. The Yellow one would stick a bit further and would multi hit. Purp would have a fat hitbox. Red and Blue would be pretty normalish. White would hit weaker but maybe angled a direction or had a much different knockback angle? Idk, he shouldn't use Dash Attack much one way or the other, and I'm definitely not claiming that Olimar of all characters is easy to code or change, but something else in those areas might have been nice.
2B. On the note of Pikmin, if it were possible I think Olimar should spawn with one Pikmin after death. Losing them all feels like a harsh penalty, to waste most of his time plucking them up instead of going for revenge. Again, I know absolutely nothing about the difficulty of programming him or playing "God" with Pikmin, but I feel like that would be a QOL change for him with much approval.
3. His Short Hop is really tiny. Like, it feels weird that he can only auto cancel Fair with strict timing. The benefit is that you get to do a ton of Fairs in a row if you SHFFL I guess. You guys *nailed* his momentum when you jump out of a run/dash. Doing that with Fair feels exactly as it should. Not sure if the SH height is great though.
4. Uair and Dair feel a tad off. They both have pretty solid reach, and do their intended job when they hit, but something feels a bit off. I think for Olimar's Uair, what feels weird is that because he tosses the pikmin upwards noticeably, there's no hitbox/small coverage near his actual hands. Stuff like falling Uair, or rising just a *tad* too high with the move can lead to misses that seem wrong. I can certainly understand not putting a hitbox near there, since the Pikmin itself is supposed to be the move only, but a small weaker hitbox (related to Olimar, not technically attached to the Pikmin) that can't combo or overlap with the main one might be good. For Dair: I think it should get a lingering hitbox/better one. Either make the main hitbox linger for just a teeny tiny few more frames, or give it a second linger hitbox that's weaker. Either way, the move needs to be timed so perfectly that even with good intentions you can end up missing by a hair in an otherwise amazing situation, and just leads to more decision making like "Why try to time Dair, when I can Fair the guy to death offstage anyways?" or "Maybe I won't go offstage and I'll just pick x option". The move itself isn't really wrong, but I think he deserves a bit more leniency in some form or fashion.
That's the main stuff I can think of. I think you just about nailed his Smashes, his grab seems appropriate for how far it goes and how good/bad it can catch airborne opponents, and I can't think of much for balancing his recovery better while keeping it 80% the same. You guys actually did a good job of putting Olimar in this game without destroying his personality and Pikmin flair, but the end result feels like a weaker Brawl Olimar where "taking chances" on his moveset was favored much less than keeping old stuff with nerfs/tweaks. This is a "safe" direction that Olimar is going, and I actually appreciate it since the real fear was an OP Olimar, but he feels a bit underwhelming as a result. I would laugh at calling him the worst character in the game, but I don't know if Olimar will bring home the bacon to his little ****** family anytime soon.
My opinion of Olimar (decent size post inc)
1. It takes too long for Flower Pikmin to bloom. The process from Leaf to Flower takes approximately 30 seconds right? I'd shave that down a bit. Even with the improved Pikmin health, I feel like that's a bit long to wait for an improvement. Or if anything, at least speed up the Bulb transformation to like 10 seconds instead of 15. The nuance of Leaf < Bud < Flower is appreciated, but could probably happen a bit faster.
2. I think he would have been better served with new tilts and a new DA. His Utilt though you guys did a great job, the other stuff not so much imo. For a Dash Attack, what I thought specifically would be kind of decent is something where he lunges forward with a Pikmin. Whichever Pikmin you used, would give the move different properties. He could be holding it by the stem or by the feet, kind of like a sword or weapon. The Yellow one would stick a bit further and would multi hit. Purp would have a fat hitbox. Red and Blue would be pretty normalish. White would hit weaker but maybe angled a direction or had a much different knockback angle? Idk, he shouldn't use Dash Attack much one way or the other, and I'm definitely not claiming that Olimar of all characters is easy to code or change, but something else in those areas might have been nice.
2B. On the note of Pikmin, if it were possible I think Olimar should spawn with one Pikmin after death. Losing them all feels like a harsh penalty, to waste most of his time plucking them up instead of going for revenge. Again, I know absolutely nothing about the difficulty of programming him or playing "God" with Pikmin, but I feel like that would be a QOL change for him with much approval.
3. His Short Hop is really tiny. Like, it feels weird that he can only auto cancel Fair with strict timing. The benefit is that you get to do a ton of Fairs in a row if you SHFFL I guess. You guys *nailed* his momentum when you jump out of a run/dash. Doing that with Fair feels exactly as it should. Not sure if the SH height is great though.
4. Uair and Dair feel a tad off. They both have pretty solid reach, and do their intended job when they hit, but something feels a bit off. I think for Olimar's Uair, what feels weird is that because he tosses the pikmin upwards noticeably, there's no hitbox/small coverage near his actual hands. Stuff like falling Uair, or rising just a *tad* too high with the move can lead to misses that seem wrong. I can certainly understand not putting a hitbox near there, since the Pikmin itself is supposed to be the move only, but a small weaker hitbox (related to Olimar, not technically attached to the Pikmin) that can't combo or overlap with the main one might be good. For Dair: I think it should get a lingering hitbox/better one. Either make the main hitbox linger for just a teeny tiny few more frames, or give it a second linger hitbox that's weaker. Either way, the move needs to be timed so perfectly that even with good intentions you can end up missing by a hair in an otherwise amazing situation, and just leads to more decision making like "Why try to time Dair, when I can Fair the guy to death offstage anyways?" or "Maybe I won't go offstage and I'll just pick x option". The move itself isn't really wrong, but I think he deserves a bit more leniency in some form or fashion.
That's the main stuff I can think of. I think you just about nailed his Smashes, his grab seems appropriate for how far it goes and how good/bad it can catch airborne opponents, and I can't think of much for balancing his recovery better while keeping it 80% the same. You guys actually did a good job of putting Olimar in this game without destroying his personality and Pikmin flair, but the end result feels like a weaker Brawl Olimar where "taking chances" on his moveset was favored much less than keeping old stuff with nerfs/tweaks. This is a "safe" direction that Olimar is going, and I actually appreciate it since the real fear was an OP Olimar, but he feels a bit underwhelming as a result. I would laugh at calling him the worst character in the game, but I don't know if Olimar will bring home the bacon to his little ****** family anytime soon.
The SH height is almost essential due to that necessity to staying grounded (the low F-Airs and whatever else I mentioned in the last post), I'm not a fan of auto-cancelling as much as the options being available for everything from multi-hit N-Airs to har-hit Pikmin whacks to empty jump Grabs and D-Tilt shield-pokes and ground pressure from Jabs catching people if they try something else late.
A lot of that 30 seconds thing comes into that delay-of-game or rush-down-game management, that I think will play a greater role in the Olimar meta-game than the Pikmin managing itself.
Catching him when he's vulnerable = win. Getting caught when he's ready to go = loss.
All about timing. Not camping or rushing, but doing things at the right moment.
Like a Lucario DDing and knowing the opponent knows he only has a few options and trying to avoid them but Lucario knows it too so he just DD's like a boss with his charge letting him go in at any moment then BAM, lands some hit with the perfect timing pre-meditated to go into his partially pre-meditated string and gaining a charge at some point mid-combo and resetting the combo to avoid escapees with DI and timing it to be intimidating enough at the right time to DD the pre-meditated counter-attack out of the opponent only to catch their DJ at the right time with his Up-B cancelled into N-Air into Up-B back to the stage and BAM...
Except with Olimar it's just like PEW and that's all he needed to do...
A lot of that 30 seconds thing comes into that delay-of-game or rush-down-game management, that I think will play a greater role in the Olimar meta-game than the Pikmin managing itself.
Catching him when he's vulnerable = win. Getting caught when he's ready to go = loss.
All about timing. Not camping or rushing, but doing things at the right moment.
Like a Lucario DDing and knowing the opponent knows he only has a few options and trying to avoid them but Lucario knows it too so he just DD's like a boss with his charge letting him go in at any moment then BAM, lands some hit with the perfect timing pre-meditated to go into his partially pre-meditated string and gaining a charge at some point mid-combo and resetting the combo to avoid escapees with DI and timing it to be intimidating enough at the right time to DD the pre-meditated counter-attack out of the opponent only to catch their DJ at the right time with his Up-B cancelled into N-Air into Up-B back to the stage and BAM...
Except with Olimar it's just like PEW and that's all he needed to do...
Ginge
Smash Ace
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
I've yet to figure out some kinda way of reliably killing Samus without edgeguard gods like jiggs, she is literally immortal offstage, the insta-tether combined with the bomb jump give her a recovery nothing short of jaw dropping and she's too floaty to set her up for reliable kill moves at kill percents even though you very much need those setups, she has to be killed outright or she will practically always recover :\
That Lucario comparison is a bit different. If he has the charge already, he's waiting for the right time to strike. Olimar has to wait around to get his own "charge", and then possibly wait around some more for the time to be right. I mean the plus side is that you *can* wait for the benefit, instead of needing to go in or taunt like poocario. With fewer Pikmin available, and still having to manage them by making sure not to throw them offstage/prevent their death, I feel like the time to get to flower could maybe go down a bit. He doesn't even spawn with any Pikmin, gotta pluck them out of the saltiest ground covered in your sweat and blood, just to basically throw away your invincibility and figure out stuff to do for half a minute to get these wimpy Pikmin back into prime shape.
The SH point is fair I guess. Still, it feels really puny and unfitting. You'd expect that guy to not be able to jump period, but alas
Edit: Combatting Tethers in this patch is much easier. Samus reel in from tether also doesn't seem that fast unless I'm ****ing it up somewhere. You could place well timed moves offstage between the edge and where she is, and it's bound to hit.
The SH point is fair I guess. Still, it feels really puny and unfitting. You'd expect that guy to not be able to jump period, but alas
Edit: Combatting Tethers in this patch is much easier. Samus reel in from tether also doesn't seem that fast unless I'm ****ing it up somewhere. You could place well timed moves offstage between the edge and where she is, and it's bound to hit.
Ginge
Smash Ace
I was only saying that it is a huge buff for Lucario to always start with a charge. Starting all of your lives (not just your first life) with Pikmin means your invincibility doesn't need to be wasted. And I'd agree to a shorter time for Pikmin to reach maturity since you now have 66.67% of the Pikmin you had in Brawl. Maybe make it 66.67% of the charge time 
so who likes 3.0 pit?
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Pit too good. I can't handle the insanity. I mean, the grab range...
Ginge
Smash Ace
I've been too distracted playing the newbies that I haven't gone to try 3.0 Pit yet.
Pit's new grab has me so happy.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
How do you feel about his nair changes? Honestly I like how the hitboxes have been cleaned up a little. I also like how it's easier to grab off the last hit since it isn't as strong anymore. Finally, that usmash tho.
nair > grab is a true combo. Tested it extensively. Makes low% much easier. Also the hitboxes being proper makes it less prone to losing to EVERY ****ING MOVE ON THE PLANET.
Usmash final hit makes me happy because now I don't get punished for usmashing as an anti-air. In 2.6/b I could usmash and beat a fox nair, for example, but would get shined or grabbed before the animation finished.
Nguz:
http://smashboards.com/threads/pits-v3-0-changes.343279/#post-16081746 in-depth analysis of 3.0 changes.
Usmash final hit makes me happy because now I don't get punished for usmashing as an anti-air. In 2.6/b I could usmash and beat a fox nair, for example, but would get shined or grabbed before the animation finished.
Nguz:
http://smashboards.com/threads/pits-v3-0-changes.343279/#post-16081746 in-depth analysis of 3.0 changes.
Comeback Kid
Smash Champion
Would Olimar be better served with say, removing a Pikmin type (blue) giving those throw attributes to another type, and managing 4 types in total?
I think that would make the whole thing easier and more fun, oh and that one guy's idea to make Olimar's light the same color as the Pikmin he currently manages.
I think that would make the whole thing easier and more fun, oh and that one guy's idea to make Olimar's light the same color as the Pikmin he currently manages.
That's an awesome idea!
Otherwise, I'm currently under the impression the Pikmin types are fine in terms of diversity, but can someone elaborate on the functional advantages of Yellow Pikmin? I'm just a little confused on how to use them to their advantage... they're just like... not as special for any particular thing, it seems. Or just not as good at their special thing as others are at their special things. haha
Pika's Dash Grab constantly gives me sexy-feelings too. That's been happening for a while though...
DMG: The Lucario example I still kind of stand by. Again, I'm not talking simple 'right-time' in terms of waiting for Pikmin to develop, but more right-time in terms of... an example... Falco can probably just D-Air or Laser a Peach that misses a Dash-Attack straight up, but there's a time and place for that, since it could simply be better to land beside her and Grab to avoid a CC and attempt going for a conversion off Peach's actions when trying to reposition herself.
That's the kind of thing I think Olimar will have tedious meta-game to work out with. WTF is the opportune moment, not just a moment to get some hits in, as it could mean anything from the loss of a Pikmin or simply a lesser combo or stage-control he won't really benefit as much from compared to simply throwing a Pikmin and backing up to bait something out from an opponent to land that special Grab or whatever.
With Lucario, it's very much the same. People Dash-Attack/F-Air > something > Down-B all day (it seems), but that just racks up damage to a point where they can no longer lead into finishers off combo strings. Same concept applies, just more obscure for Oli.
more extensive opinion of kirby: he's absolutely gonna get outspaced by your marths and the like, I see few ways around it aside from maybe a well-read-and-spaced side cutter
buuuut he's safe enough where, if you can't space him, you're gonna have some big trouble so he's fun. I think I agree with how nausicaa placed him on their incredibly difficult to understand at first list
buuuut he's safe enough where, if you can't space him, you're gonna have some big trouble so he's fun. I think I agree with how nausicaa placed him on their incredibly difficult to understand at first list
imo Roy is below average
he suffers from similar fundamental issues that Marth does
like more big stages, dash dancing isn't as strong in the neutral in the grand scheme of things, there isn't a monopoly on range anymore, weak options to escape pressure, inability to get kills outside of random hits if opponents get past combo percents, stuff like that
I would say that Marth is probably a little above average, pretty good spot to be in
but Roy has some problems on top of that, particularly his physics while being very good offensively are total ass cheeks if you want to do something that isn't get hit by any possible combo in the game, his recovery is even worse than Marth's which again stems from his physics, and he's more vulnerable to CC
that said, he's the most fun character in the game to play for me, and I've felt that way since Melee
he can kind of have some Falcon-esque moments where he camps around for hit, and then just goes ham off of it taking you from nothing to eating a sweetspot Fsmash in the face that kills you in like 5 seconds
he suffers from similar fundamental issues that Marth does
like more big stages, dash dancing isn't as strong in the neutral in the grand scheme of things, there isn't a monopoly on range anymore, weak options to escape pressure, inability to get kills outside of random hits if opponents get past combo percents, stuff like that
I would say that Marth is probably a little above average, pretty good spot to be in
but Roy has some problems on top of that, particularly his physics while being very good offensively are total ass cheeks if you want to do something that isn't get hit by any possible combo in the game, his recovery is even worse than Marth's which again stems from his physics, and he's more vulnerable to CC
that said, he's the most fun character in the game to play for me, and I've felt that way since Melee
he can kind of have some Falcon-esque moments where he camps around for hit, and then just goes ham off of it taking you from nothing to eating a sweetspot Fsmash in the face that kills you in like 5 seconds
But... Roy's our Boy
I think Roy is decent, he's just gonna have to rely on cheesy CC stuff for MU's that he can't apply much pressure or poking offensively. He makes FF's look outright bad with how easily you can body them from a single launch
I think Roy is decent, he's just gonna have to rely on cheesy CC stuff for MU's that he can't apply much pressure or poking offensively. He makes FF's look outright bad with how easily you can body them from a single launch
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I used to absolutely ****ing hate this quote. Pretty big FE fan, having playing all the games that have been released in English. I was lucky enough to get my hands on a bunch of fan translates and so when I played FE6 - It completely neutered my desire to play any more games in the series. Terrible game and Roy is an AWFUL Lord. Him being Eliwood's son - who is another pretty meh Lord, though at least he gets a horse when he promotes - didn't really help matters. I will always think of Roy as awful, will never play FE6 and absolutely get burned up when people yap all over the SSB4 boards asking for Roy back over Lyn, Lucina or Ike. He's the worst Lord in the series and about as relevant as Leaf, with only his inclusion in Melee going for him. Ugh.
So of course, when P:M 3.0 came out I ... played him because I have a thing for swords, but just to check out how bad he still was and would never play him again, and then, uh ...
Well, Roy's our boy.
But only in P:M!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ginge
Smash Ace
I honestly don't care where Kirby and Roy end up in the rankings. I just have so much fun using them. And that's enough for me.
PastLink
Smash Journeyman
nah, the blue are good as they are, they could use the extra grab range again though, it seems to me like they don't grab too much further than normal pikmin. plus, what would olimar be without all of his pikmin type?
that olimar light idea though.
i need that in my life.
metroid1117
Smash Master
He can crouch under Ike's QD shenanigans. It makes me so sad =(.
Ginge
Smash Ace
To be fair, one good hit from Ike = dead puffballs. So being able to dodge a move by crouching isn't too bad.
Caryslan
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2010
- Messages
- 169
I enjoy playing as Roy, but it seems like his recovery is still horrible. He barely gains any height and he still falls like a rock offstage. I don't know if his recovery is just as bad as it was in Melee, but it reminds me of vBrawl Link's recovery and that's not a good thing.
I don't know if it's his falling speed or the fact that Blazer still goes not give him alot of height, but I wish they would give him a better recovery. With all the buffs Ike got for his recovery, why can't Roy get any love?
Am I the only one who feels like Roy's recovery is still garbage? Maybe I have not played him enough, but it just feels like with all the nice buffs Roy got, that's the one they did not bother touching.
I don't know if it's his falling speed or the fact that Blazer still goes not give him alot of height, but I wish they would give him a better recovery. With all the buffs Ike got for his recovery, why can't Roy get any love?
Am I the only one who feels like Roy's recovery is still garbage? Maybe I have not played him enough, but it just feels like with all the nice buffs Roy got, that's the one they did not bother touching.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
You can alter its direction as well as its height which gives him some options. Part of the issue is his fall speed mainly. I do believe the overall length of Up B is better overall, but I wasn't expecting anything super amazing.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Umad brian?
FlareHabanero
Banned via Warnings
Regarding to Roy's recovery, what ever happened to the whole wall jump cancel thing Roy had as shown in previews?
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Axrz
Smash Apprentice
That's still in there. The PMBR have coined it a "walltech."
Burnsy
Smash Lord
It was either that or a ledge tech. I'm not sure why you are implying they "coined" it; it was in Melee.
Axrz
Smash Apprentice
I was being sarcastic.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
*woooooooosh*
Vashimus
Smash Master
Low falling speed + heavy weight + excellent recovery options = stop trying to kill her off the sides.
Brim
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2010
- Messages
- 819
- NNID
- Bitterbub
All that (although I wasn't aware you could give him more height, compared to the initial idea in Melee) and I believe his recovery is a Mega Man reference too.