Tier List Speculation

[Juushichi]

I feel like with all the exposure that S@X gets through VGBC, some people make huge generalizations about PM based almost solely on what they see at Xanadu.

Lucas, Wolf, Diddy, Mario?

All of these characters had strong players long before S@X was as big as it was. VGBC's exposure is amazing and reaches a large audience for smash, but these characters were generally believed to be very good way before even 3.0 came out, lol. With the exception of maybe Diddy Kong. (But I believed)

There are still entire areas that people don't know about in terms of PM. There are still people that believe that @Professor Pro isn't the best Snake in the world. Both of these things are crazy.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There are still entire areas that people don't know about in terms of PM. There are still people that believe that @Professor Pro isn't the best Snake in the world. Both of these things are crazy.

Can it be a crime to live under a rock?

 

[Juushichi]

Can it be a crime to live under a rock?

No, unfortunately. But it is crazy.

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

Diddy Kong's throws are a lot better than 'ok'. Having a kill throw at all is amazing, but regardless of the fairly high % requirement (not that diddy has any problem at all racking up %) it is still a potent option when it doesn't kill because it keeps opponents away for so long you can pull bananas. His downthrow leads to fair on bad di or to techchases against fastfallers and diddy kong is one of the most potent techchasers in the game, able to act like they are teching near an edge all the time due to grounded banana pressure. His fthrow and bthrow toss people offstage at a very good angle for edgeguarding afterwards, and diddy kong's edgeguards are some of the strongest in the game with that upb able to cover all options for so long. His backthrow and downthrow also put people into techroll on platforms quite often, and his fair destroys slow tech options while his monkey face grip can punish the tech quite often even if it is late. Furthermore even if you downthrow into a techchase leading from one side of the stage to the other with no bananas to stop them from techrolling away you can still punish them with peanuts to beat the roll away, where even if they get up fast enough to block the peanut you are given enough time to banana pull. This is all without mentioning the obvious glide toss techchases which enable kill combos from a multitude of timings and distances.

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy Kong's throws are a lot better than 'ok'. Having a kill throw at all is amazing, but regardless of the fairly high % requirement (not that diddy has any problem at all racking up %) it is still a potent option when it doesn't kill because it keeps opponents away for so long you can pull bananas. His downthrow leads to fair on bad di or to techchases against fastfallers and diddy kong is one of the most potent techchasers in the game, able to act like they are teching near an edge all the time due to grounded banana pressure. His fthrow and bthrow toss people offstage at a very good angle for edgeguarding afterwards, and diddy kong's edgeguards are some of the strongest in the game with that upb able to cover all options for so long. His backthrow and downthrow also put people into techroll on platforms quite often, and his fair destroys slow tech options while his monkey face grip can punish the tech quite often even if it is late. Furthermore even if you downthrow into a techchase leading from one side of the stage to the other with no bananas to stop them from techrolling away you can still punish them with peanuts to beat the roll away, where even if they get up fast enough to block the peanut you are given enough time to banana pull. This is all without mentioning the obvious glide toss techchases which enable kill combos from a multitude of timings and distances.

I agree with you that Diddy's tech chasing options off of throws are really strong, but the initial point was that while did has strong throws, they are for the most part DI mix ups, Unlike Throws like mario/link/tink/rob/lucas d-throws that get guaranteed follow ups as long as they react to the DI.

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy's throws really aren't anything special compared to the rest of the cast, it's just that Diddy is such a good character that he can capitalize well even off very standard throws. If his throws were stronger he'd be OP.

 

[sneakytako]

Did somebody say diddy's kill moves are broken?

 

[jtm94]

Transform is overpowered.

Did somebody say diddy's kill moves are broken?

I think they alluded to that, yes. And his upthrow is bananas.

 

[Cassio]

Somebody mustve never played a good diddy if they think Diddy's throws arent outstanding.

There are still people that believe that Professor Pro isn't the best Snake in the world. Both of these things are crazy.

Still overrated, so its not really that crazy.

 

[sneakytako]

You wanna know what else diddy has that kills super early? Fsmash and Fair.

 

[Terotrous]

Fair is Diddy's best move IMO. It's so fast, strong, and has one of the best trajectories in the game.

But really, almost everything about Diddy is good. That's what makes him such a solid character.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dont forget about the banana aka "Wait there is tripping in PM?"

 

[Terotrous]

Dont forget about the banana aka "Wait there is tripping in PM?"

Yeah of course bananas are spectacular as well. Everything about Diddy just works so well together. Did you slip on a banana near the edge of the stage? Dash Attack -> Fair, you're done.

 

[JOE!]

Am I the only one around here who thinks its kinda weirs that throws dont use Weight to calculate KB?

 

[Terotrous]

Am I the only one around here who thinks its kinda weirs that throws dont use Weight to calculate KB?

I think it's to prevent heavy weight characters from getting chaingrabbed to death. In general, being thrown a short distance is really bad.

 

[didds]

Fools, it's all about that d tilt-> d tilt-> grab

broken

 

[JOE!]

I think it's to prevent heavy weight characters from getting chaingrabbed to death. In general, being thrown a short distance is really bad.

True, but then you get things like Bowser beign able to be killed faster than fox by Lucas' Uthrow

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy (like a lot of characters) get a lot more off of people not DIing properly. DA is really easily SDI-able. Try DIing beind diddy and getting into the hitbox's on the back end of it, they send backwards so you fall right out of it.

Spoiler

Total: 45
Hit: 7-18 (Strong Hit 7-11, Weaker Hit 12-18)
IASA: 40
Damage:2 (first 4 hits), 4 (final hit)

There are tons of examples in Diddy's hitboxes and combos where people fall out/ tech out/ etc of his strings and chases and item play with proper counterplay. He is really strong and well designed imo, every aspect of his kit has built in counter-play (even side-b grab > slap follow ups can be DI'd behind to prevent Fair follow ups at most percents).
Imo I think Diddy, Wario, and Wolf are the characters that the PBMR made the best, not necessarily on a tier list, but overall design and interaction within the game. I am a little biased towards the monkey though.

 

[Bryonato]

Ok I made another edit to my list.
Thoughts?

A:
Fox
Falco
MK
Sheik
Wolf
Diddy
Mario
Pit
Lucas

B:
Link
Snake
Ivy
Marth
ZSS
Wario
Tink
Peach

C:
Ike
Samus
Mewtwo
Kirby
DK
Ness
ROB
Sonic
CF
Yoshi

D:
GnW
Roy
D3
Zelda
Bowser
Lucario [These last few are relatively interchangeable, aside from Ganon]
Puff
Squirtle
Zard
Luigi
Pikachu
Olimar
Ganon



IDK what to do with this character:
ICies

 

[Soft Serve]

Ok I made another edit to my list.
Thoughts?

A:
Fox
Falco
MK
Sheik
Wolf
Diddy
Mario
Pit
Lucas

B:
Link
Snake
Ivy
Marth
ZSS
Wario
Tink
Peach

C:
Ike
Samus
Mewtwo
Kirby
DK
Ness
ROB
Sonic
CF
Yoshi

D:
GnW
Roy
D3
Zelda
Bowser
Lucario [These last few are relatively interchangeable, aside from Ganon]
Puff
Squirtle
Zard
Luigi
Pikachu
Olimar
Ganon



IDK what to do with this character:
ICies

I wouldn't put Samus quite that high or GnW quite that low, but I do like that D tier is large because they are still good characters.
I disagree with squirtle and olimar being at the bottom though. Id put them both above DK at the minimum.
Its a pretty agreeable list though.

 

[JOE!]

Two things for that list:

1) Falco is not 2nd best anymore

2) Characters I find are often "just as good as" others, which make order within tiers I dont think really matter as much

 

[Bryonato]

Two things for that list:

1) Falco is not 2nd best anymore

2) Characters I find are often "just as good as" others, which make order within tiers I dont think really matter as much

1.who is 2nd best then? I just can't comfortably justify putting anyone else in that spot atm. I think MK is good but not top 2.

2. I agree with you here.

 

[didds]

Ok I made another edit to my list.
Thoughts?

A:
Fox
Falco
MK
Sheik
Wolf
Diddy
Mario
Pit
Lucas

B:
Link
Snake
Ivy
Marth
ZSS
Wario
Tink
Peach

C:
Ike
Samus
Mewtwo
Kirby
DK
Ness
ROB
Sonic
CF
Yoshi

D:
GnW
Roy
D3
Zelda
Bowser
Lucario [These last few are relatively interchangeable, aside from Ganon]
Puff
Squirtle
Zard
Luigi
Pikachu
Olimar
Ganon



IDK what to do with this character:
ICies

definitely needs more cowbell

 

[JOE!]

1.who is 2nd best then? I just can't comfortably justify putting anyone else in that spot atm. I think MK is good but not top 2.

2. I agree with you here.

I'd say MK may rise to be up at that spot given time, followed by some mix of like.. Lucas, wolf, pit and Diddy/Mario. Honestly, so many new characters can just "deal" with Falco now that I have a hard time believing he is the same level of awesome he is in Melee by comparison.

 

[Bryonato]

Right but who is there RIGHT now? Who should replace falco as number 2 at this very moment? This is the question I have trouble answering, so I put Falco there.

 

[JOE!]

Right but who is there RIGHT now? Who should replace falco as number 2 at this very moment? This is the question I have trouble answering, so I put Falco there.

I think he "shares" the number two spot with like, MK / Mario / Sheik / Wolf at the moment. Those 4 have a great deal of versatility that rivals Falco even without 12 years backing them up (well, except Sheik). Over time though I only see Falco going down a little bit as he's just not in Kansas anymore

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm I'm Kansas right now and it's awful

 

[didds]

The state tier list has Kansas in F tier along with Nebraska and North Dakota, I shudder just thinking of living in those places.

Florida also recently dropped from B tier to D tier...

 

[9bit]

Florida also recently dropped from B tier to D tier...

I wonder if that's because of all the **** Florida Man has been getting up to

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree with @ Bryonato 's tier list for the most part. There is justification for Samus so high, great surviving and just wrecking up damage slowly but surely while getting less damage at the same time without getting comboed. People underestimate this because most are all out for as much combo + offense as possible, but Samus tilts+jab, her nair and missiles do the job. A good way to find how you can find out about how strong a character is is examining their neutral game and possible weaknesses/counter-strategies. While most characters are up there because of the neutral game, Samus is great because she has to commit barely and is strong at range, in close combat and doesn't get comboed (well not top tier because other things miss but still it makes her deserve the place).
Btw I think Mario is slightly worse than MK/Sheik/Falco/Wolf, range would be one reason, "floatiness", at least in comparison, makes him have to commit more and that weakens him. If I would have to give the spots in an definite order, it would be 2. Falco (lasers, i tend to rate neutral very high which I am sure should be the way to go because a slight neutral game advantage can be waited out with accumulating positional advantages / forcing opponents into options and will make you win it, if played well, almost every time, what can you do if you can't win neutral?), 3.MK (hm strange his neutral is the worst from MK/Sheik/Falco/Wolf but he has the ability to use mixups better than other characters which gives him always a clear probability to win neutral, in opposite to characters that will just lose it over time and have to wait for slow reactions/errors. The reason I give MK 3rd is his possibility to convert a positional advantage into damage while keeping the advantage with his incredible positioning, leading to long hitstrings which are not really combos or techchases). 4.Sheik 5. Wolf (Wolfs punish game is stronger but Wolfs lasers are his best neutral weapon because his aerials aren't good on shield and you can work around them while needles are just an incredible option devastating the opponents neutral game winning attempts)
I would also slightly downrate ZSS because of grab issues and resulting neutral game issues, but just a little bit because she has the strong punishes and can win neutral with her vertical aerial mobility (great tool for winning neutral, e.g. Wario has almost nothing else in neutral and this makes him decent), at least sometimes and neutral b also helps out.

Long post, I know, please read it anyways^^

 

[didds]

I wonder if that's because of all the **** Florida Man has been getting up to

Florida man you've done it again. That bit with the sword cracked me up.

 

[1FD]

I figured most people would miss the important/most interesting part of the combo and focus on the down-b cancels lol. Looks like I was right :/.

What were you pointing out specifically then?
I missed any discussion on it.

 

[MLGF]

The state tier list has Kansas in F tier along with Nebraska and North Dakota, I shudder just thinking of living in those places.

Florida also recently dropped from B tier to D tier...

There's a state tier list?

 

[Hylian]

What were you pointing out specifically then?
I missed any discussion on it.

Oh there was no discussion. I think the cool part about the combo is the spacing on DA to make ASC stop the knockback from DA and link into Dsmash.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Am I the only one around here who thinks its kinda weirs that throws dont use Weight to calculate KB?

True, but then you get things like Bowser beign able to be killed faster than fox by Lucas' Uthrow

The way I think about it is throws are using the opponent's weight against them. Since you have complete control of them, you get to take your sweet time accelerating them up to the same launch speed as any other character. Hence why throwing heavier characters yields a slower throw but the same knockback.

 

[1MachGO]

Am I the only one around here who thinks its kinda weirs that throws dont use Weight to calculate KB?

Weight applies to horizontal KB whereas fallspeed applies to vertical KB.

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy (like a lot of characters) get a lot more off of people not DIing properly. DA is really easily SDI-able. Try DIing beind diddy and getting into the hitbox's on the back end of it, they send backwards so you fall right out of it.

I know you can SDI, but the link seems fairly reliable as long as you start it from far away enough that only the last couple of hits land.

 

[Mera Mera]

Weight applies to horizontal KB whereas fallspeed applies to vertical KB.

Technically, weight affects knockback as a whole. Fall speed doesn't reduce knockback, it's just that they fall while they're in knockback (so they go a reduced vertical distance). Since hitstun and knockback are directly related (e.g. if two different instances of moves give 100 KB then they will both have the same amount of hitstun), fast fallers go less vertical distance for their given hitstun than floaties do.

As for the throw bit, throws are actually an exception to weight affecting knockback. Bowser dies from kill throws at the same percents as those who fall at the same speed as him (since fall speed does reduce vertical distance).

Oddly enough, weight does have an affect on most (all?) throws, in that the throw animation is slower when you are throwing heavier characters (though not by much).

As such, characters like Charizard, who's heavy but floaty, are more susceptible to kill throws than a majority of the cast.

 

[JOE!]

There's a state tier list?

MA is high tier Cus of POOB, it isn't top due to taxes

 

[SpiderMad]

Doesn't weight still apply to vertical KB
Oops, need to refresh pages more often. Someone needs to make a video describing this stuff.

It's called the three biggest PM misconceptions: Mconceptions Ep.1

1- That Fox's (and others) short hop is easier because of the separate Brawl thing that is unrelated pertaining to momentum being delayed a frame or something, or that the jumpsquat frames are different than Melee's. The real reason is because Melee for some reason checked a frame early for button release to determine shorthop and Brawl pretty much fixed it/checked last frame possible like Melee should have.

2- Fox and Falco aren't heavy they are light in weight value, but their fallspeed helps out vertically (and somewhat horizontally?) AKA how the hell weight and stuff is calculated and works

3- How the hell throws work, and how they're currently different from Melee concerning release points whatever the hell those are

If you're knowledged in these areas contact James.madway on Skype, if you're a women from Brazil I'm auto-blocking you