Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

Ness does not have one of the best MU spreads. FE × STARFAX does, however.

I'm sorry what I meant was one of the better spreads. I think that there are very few characters that Ness solidly loses to.

 

[Ripple]

and you don't think DDD is one of them?

 

[Boiko]

and you don't think DDD is one of them?

Nah. I think it's 55-45 D3. D3 can keep Ness out pretty well, and has a very easy time gimping him.
Ness loses one of his strengths in this MU in that he has a decently hard time gimping D3 at low percents compared to the rest of the cast. But if Ness does get in, D3 is a pretty good combo weight for Ness. A grab at low/low-mid percents can convert into double bair, bair>dair>tech chase, fair>regrab, fair>mag>dair/nair/fair, etc. Plus D3 is a big target for PKF and waddles are just land mines to plant pillars on. If Ness manages to get D3 off stage and get a read on his recovery, he can punish pretty heavy without the need for a gimp. Also, at higher percents, Ness' dsmash will edge guard very well.

It's all tough though, because like I said, D3 keeps Ness out pretty well. But Ness can camp around D3's zone pretty well too. I just don't see it as being as extreme as +3 for D3 (I'm not sure if you're equating that to 65-35). Also, idk if that auto grab break still works, but if it does, it's only at pretty high percents where Ness has other tools anyway.

 

[FreeGamer]

Is Kirby just a joke now? Moving during Inhale must have meant a lot to him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Every other time I see Ike brought up as jank I see nothing but Ike mains defending the opposite. lol

I mean he's cool and balanced, doesn't mean being a slow heavy with a weird burst movement option isn't jank as hell

See I don't see jank as a bad thing, it makes this game fun.

 

[Ogopogo]

Falco, while being the worst of the spacies, is still a spacie. He definitely like... loses 3 or 4 matchups now but hes still a top tier.

Who does he lose to? Maybe Sheik and Mewtwo....?

 

[Player -0]

Kirby's even better than before...

Edit - Couldn't Kirby beat Falco? I could see it.

 

[MLGF]

I think people are sleeping on MK hard.
I feel tempted to pick him back up just to prove he's still really good.

 

[Ripple]

stuff.

I'm curious as to if you think octorok played this entirely wrong or the skill gap is too big between us.


Octo is no stranger to this MU either. we've played multiple times. I get free edgeguards and PK fire is no threat to me at all even if hits a waddle. this MU is so easy

also, the grab break still works, but its absolutely not % specific. you can do it at 0%

 

[Player -0]

Who's Octorok?

 

[Deleted member]

Who does he lose to? Maybe Sheik and Mewtwo....?

Definitely not sheik. I think he has some trouble with wario, ivysaur, ddd, basically anyone who is a floaty character and can weave in/out of lasers (And can also edgeguard/gimp the **** out of him, but almost anyone can do that anyways)

 

[FreeGamer]

Kirby's even better than before...

Edit - Couldn't Kirby beat Falco? I could see it.

Aside from "lol recoveries suck therefore free gimps for Kirby" I don't see anything better in 3.5. >_>

 

[Strong Badam]

Definitely not sheik. I think he has some trouble with wario, ivysaur, ddd, basically anyone who is a floaty character and can weave in/out of lasers (And can also edgeguard/gimp the **** out of him, but almost anyone can do that anyways)

I think Wario vs Falco is even. It's very easy if they don't know the matchup, but becomes even when they do know it.

 

[Player -0]

Ew, I watched that video. That neutral was pretty disgusting, I'm glad I don't watch more Nesses. No dash dance/use of Ness' amazing aerial mobility and pretty lackluster combos. Didn't use D-Tilt like, at all? It's almost strictly better than jab.

Being able to DI DDD's D-Throw Up and/or Away when?

Aside from "lol recoveries suck therefore free gimps for Kirby" I don't see anything better in 3.5. >_>

Kirby was nerfed very minimally (I guess he did lose his dumb CG followups). Other people's recoveries being worse is really amazing as well as most of their stuff being nerfed.

 

[Boiko]

I'm curious as to if you think octorok played this entirely wrong or the skill gap is too big between us.


Octo is no stranger to this MU either. we've played multiple times. I get free edgeguards and PK fire is no threat to me at all even if hits a waddle. this MU is so easy

also, the grab break still works, but its absolutely not % specific. you can do it at 0%

Yeah, it's definitely a combination of him playing the MU wrong, and having an very poor neutral game and poor adaptability (in other words, big skill gap). He hardly used dair/nair in the neutral, didn't really DD at all, and his PKF usage seemed sporadic versus well placed. He failed to adapt to the fact that you DI'd every fair out making a follow up difficult or impossible, his recovery choices were super poor..I mean...you were charging jet hammer ON STAGE, WAITING. I know you can DI out of D3's d-throw so he can't regrab also. Just a lot of poor play, imo. Zero bait and punish. I just think you're a far better player and he has a lot of fine tuning to work on.

@ Player -0 Yeah, dtilt is super good, but it doesn't hit behind like jab 1 does, and of course, doesn't jab reset either. Just different moves.

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, it's definitely a combination of him playing the MU wrong, and having an very poor neutral game and poor adaptability (in other words, big skill gap). He hardly used dair/nair in the neutral, didn't really DD at all, and his PKF usage seemed sporadic versus well placed. He failed to adapt to the fact that you DI'd every fair out making a follow up difficult or impossible, his recovery choices were super poor..I mean...you were charging jet hammer ON STAGE, WAITING. I know you can DI out of D3's d-throw so he can't regrab also. Just a lot of poor play, imo. Zero bait and punish. I just think you're a far better player and he has a lot of fine tuning to work on.

@ Player -0 Yeah, dtilt is super good, but it doesn't hit behind like jab 1 does, and of course, doesn't jab reset either. Just different moves.

I said almost strictly better but yet.

Edit - Pivot D-Tilt like a Roy though.

 

[MLGF]

Every time I see an Ike blindly charge QD in the neutral, with his opponent across the stage, proceeds to go for the attack and gets something off it, I die on the inside.

People need to learn how to punish stupid Ike players, not to say he isn't amazing but I do think to an extent its the opponents fault for not learning how to punish it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah maybe they should shield the QD attack **** what if he grabs
Oh i know just get onto a platform to avoid it wait i forgot he can jump

I'm curious as to if you think octorok played this entirely wrong or the skill gap is too big between us.
Octo is no stranger to this MU either. we've played multiple times. I get free edgeguards and PK fire is no threat to me at all even if hits a waddle. this MU is so easy
also, the grab break still works, but its absolutely not % specific. you can do it at 0%

Well there's more to it than just matchup exp or player skill. Some players play with certain styles that just get countered either by particular characters or by other players. This is especially common in neutral but pinning down what the habits are causing it is pretty tough. Even if you are better than him and the matchup is disadvantageous, it's also possible the effects are compounded by this

 

[howbadisbad]

Yeah maybe they should shield the QD attack **** what if he grabs
Oh i know just get onto a platform to avoid it wait i forgot he can jump

fullscreen 50/50s

whens mahvell

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah maybe they should shield the QD attack **** what if he grabs
Oh i know just get onto a platform to avoid it wait i forgot he can jump


Well there's more to it than just matchup exp or player skill. Some players play with certain styles that just get countered either by particular characters or by other players. This is especially common in neutral but pinning down what the habits are causing it is pretty tough. Even if you are better than him and the matchup is disadvantageous, it's also possible the effects are compounded by this

Or you (in particular) could press the B button

Or you know would you just

Freaking

Hit him

 

[Deleted member]

Ikes current side b definitely has problems. You cannot deny that.

YES, some characters can stuff ikes side b, but the characters who can't suffer very severely. I really like the idea suggested to remove his QD Attack, because it'd still let his grab game be good but help tone down his mixup potential out of the move. Being able to wavedash, jump, grab, and use QD Attack which breaks CC is... pretty ****ing strong.

 

[MLGF]

...Actually, I'd be OK with that. That's quite possibly the best solution I've heard ever, thanks Lunchables.

 

[Foo]

When the response to Ike charging QD when you can actually do something about it is always "Run towards him and slap him in his stupid face" it really doesn't have too many mixups.

QD expands Ike's punish range, it doesn't do anything for his approach. <- Ike 101

The best way to nerf it if y'all really want is to remove QD attack entirely, or nerf it harder than it was in 3.5. Suddenly all of Ike's non-grab punishes are aerials a.k.a "Expose sternum for punish"

tl;dr QD doesn't really force a 50/50 b/w shielding (and getting grabbed) or not, it has way more interaction than is being implied her, can be stuffed relatively painlessly by most of the cast and severely patches up a lot of holes in Ike's game. Try not to hot-button nerf one of the coolest things about this game (and yes I mean that.)

Lunchables isn't the one who suggested it. This is the first post (at least in this thread, I think) to suggest that.

Thanks Lordling Thane of Blue Flames

 

[MLGF]

Well, I think it's a great idea. The only issue is that it may hurt Ike's recovery a bit harshly (so guess I'm leaning on just making QD attack rather bad), but it's a far better trade then most ideas I've seen on here.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, lordling suggested it first. If you get rid of the attack, he can only grab and aerial if hes planning to approach you, aka you can actually stuff him out reliably. Either way, current 3.5 side b is definitely complain worthy lol

 

[Foo]

Well, I think it's a great idea. The only issue is that it may hurt Ike's recovery a bit harshly (so guess I'm leaning on just making QD attack rather bad), but it's a far better trade then most ideas I've seen on here.

If that's a problem you could make it aerial only. JC grab/upsmash etc. only available on ground, and QD attack only available in air. Don't think it'd be a problem though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Or you (in particular) could press the B button

Or you know would you just

Freaking

Hit him

Laser (much like ROB in general) loses to jumps unless you read the jump. Hitting him loses to variable QD timing (it's not lime you can react to the release of the charge), wd back, grab armor if timed right, and trades at best with the QD attack? Lmao the solutions are not as straight forward as you pretend they are

 

[Mean Green]

I have a random question, @ any/every spacie hater. Since 3.5 I've encountered a lot of complaints about them, even on sites other than smashboards. I've read nerf suggestions such as:
delay shine speed
remove jump-canceling from shines
remove shine combos (and that spacies should lose a lot of combos in general)
Fox should become slower
Brawl shine for Fox
Brawl shine for Falco as well
shines should only reflect
shines should be removed altogether
lasers should be altered or removed.

What would be wrong with leaving all their moves/speeds/combos intact, and instead weakening the spacies' damage output & kill moves? (And, remove Fox's dumb dash-->up-C, & make it harder for him to short hop).

 

[MLGF]

They'll always have the best freaking neutral, pressure game, etc, so long as they keep their speed and shine.
I honestly don't care, if they their kill moves hit, then that means more opportunities for being punished, meaning more risk/reward. Couple that with slightly worse tech rolls, and I think Fox could become fair.

 

[JOE!]

I guess part of it would boil down to the damage being nerfed across the board is a good idea, but doesn't really address the core issues people talk about when they mention the spacies IMO. For example, Fox's shine only does a mere 3% but the angles and distance it sends makes it lethal. The laser from a distance hits for 1% if fresh, 0.5% staled but still ultimately forces people to approach. His Mobility allows him to work around another character's defenses and still get in hit after hit with the option to disengage if unpunished. Falco's lasers don't do that much % but the fact that they do un-clankable hit stun neuters the opposition's defense in many ways, opening them up for Falco to link hits in. His spike will still be amazing for the fact that it comes out so fast and lingers, regardless if it did like 2% less or something. Etc, etc.

Sure, it is a viable solution given that say, if they did 2% or something less across the board they would have to work in so many more hits on average and thus open themselves up more for error, and so on. But it doesn't address the core complaints I hear often about how they way they "work" more or less dominate neutral and punishes in a way that would really swing MUs around. At least on paper...

 

[Mean Green]

That is all true. But when I said weaken their damage output, I meant close to halving (if not that), to compensate for their outstanding neutral/pressure/punish game (and Fox's gimping ability).

I also have an unrelated question. Since Lunchables has been posting some pretty good tier lists for awhile, I've been wondering why I never see that much discussion about them?

 

[ConeZ]

That is all true. But when I said weaken their damage output, I meant close to halving (if not that), to compensate for their outstanding neutral (and Fox's gimping ability).

Why not just make shine less broken?

I know it would make a lot of Melee vets mad, but it seriously needs to be looked at. Can't they make Fox good without giving him a 1 frame combo starting get out of jail free card semi spike that is safe on shield, can be spammed, and is also a reflecter?

I mean... can they at least make it unsafe? Like... WHY NOT. make it so you can't jump cancel it if you don't hit the opponent or their shield? Make them sit in a punishable but fair amount of endlag, instead of just giving them such a broken tool.

 

[Mean Green]

I'm just asking because I like the challenge (most of my opponents play spacies), and I like being able to have my Melee skill transfer on the rare occasions that I play Fox and Falco in PM. Of course they can change it, but tbh I'd probably drop them if they were redesigned. Personally I'd feel like they were dumbing down the game and ruining my favorite characters. Melee players handle them just fine; I suppose I fail to see why PM players can't just rise to their challenges instead of trying to get them removed.

 

[PlateProp]

Way I see it, Fox shouldn't have lasers at all. Why give a character a tool that makes it so they dont have to approach at all on top of everything else he already has?

Shine's a whole other problem too

 

[JOE!]

That is all true. But when I said weaken their damage output, I meant close to halving (if not that), to compensate for their outstanding neutral/pressure/punish game (and Fox's gimping ability).

I also have an unrelated question. Since Lunchables has been posting some pretty good tier lists for awhile, I've been wondering why I never see that much discussion about them?

Halving their damage output would be simply overkill IMO. You'd then have them with smashes that like, do 9% etc.

Way I see it, Fox shouldn't have lasers at all. Why give a character a tool that makes it so they dont have to approach at all on top of everything else he already has?

Shine's a whole other problem too

Its more an issue that he has both IMO. Fox (and Falco) are sort of unique IMO in that they have an amazing camp game -and- and amazing approach where most characters really only have one or the other. It in essence allows them to engage and disengage somewhat freely which in turn leads to their dominating neutral.

 

[Strong Badam]

A lot of characters legitimately lose the matchup to spacies, it's not just an issue of "rising to the challenge" when your opponent has an advantage over you by virtue of character selection. Some characters like Roy handle them really well, but many of the newfound PM characters lose to at least one of them and some of them lose to both.

 

[Mean Green]

Halving their damage output would be simply overkill IMO. You'd then have them with smashes that like, do 9% etc.

Then it wouldn't need to be halved if that's too much. Just some % where they're weakened just enough to be left alone, you know?

A lot of characters legitimately lose the matchup to spacies, it's not just an issue of "rising to the challenge" when your opponent has an advantage over you by virtue of character selection. Some characters like Roy handle them really well, but many of the newfound PM characters lose to at least one of them and some of them lose to both.

How many characters actually have unwinnable MU's?

it's not just an issue of "rising to the challenge" when your opponent has an advantage over you by virtue of character selection.

1- Every single fighting game has tiers. 2- that's why secondaries exist. 3- There are quite a few Melee low-tier mains who do just that despite their character being garbage.

 

[JOE!]

Then it wouldn't need to be halved if that's too much. Just some % where they're weakened just enough to be left alone, you know?

I think it'd be a worthy play-testing experiment, but it doesn't really solve the core issue they have in terms of when they land a hit on top of their ease of controlling how they get in hits. Like, unless as you said you essentially nerf their damage to the ground, they would still have the tools to crack open an opponent's defenses or raw mobility to punish things (and even force a move on the opponent's part via lasers) to the point that landing a few more hits would be a bit trivial, hell maybe even easier since less damage means the opponents are carried closer to them for combo purposes.

For that reason I don't think merely dropping their damage some will really solve much unless done to a ludicrous degree. That said, the fact that Fox's Up Air does friggen 18% is dumb lol.

 

[ConeZ]

I'm just asking because I like the challenge (most of my opponents play spacies), and I like being able to have my Melee skill transfer on the rare occasions that I play Fox and Falco in PM. Of course they can change it, but tbh I'd probably drop them if they were redesigned. Personally I'd feel like they were dumbing down the game and ruining my favorite characters. Melee players handle them just fine; I suppose I fail to see why PM players can't just rise to their challenges instead of trying to get them removed.

Melee players CANNOT change the inherent problems Fox has. There are no updates in Melee. PM, on the other hand, can fix their problems.
And as I said, I don't want Fox completely reworked, but if the PMDT is really trying to make a balanced game, then leaving spacies the same just for the sake of keeping Melee players happy and having non-spacy mains have to "rise to the challenge" is counter-productive.

As a Wario main, I wish more characters had a comparable level of balance to my main. Wario has very well defined strengths and weaknesses.

On one hand, he has pretty good combos, a good grab game, some nice mix-ups, solid kill options, and he has top tier air mobility.
On the other hand, he is very easily gimped, he has poor range on most of his moves, he is at a pretty horrible weight because IMO he is combo food. His biggest problem, however, is that he has 2 polarizing matchups (Fox and Marth) that he are borderline unwinnable.

Despite the horrid matchups, I think Wario's balance is good (and this is reflected in the population's opinion of him as well)
I don't think it is unreasonable to want for a game that patches to make other characters like Fox similarly balanced.
You know, keep the strengths, but accentuate their weaknesses?

 

[PlateProp]

Melee players CANNOT change the inherent problems Fox has. There are no updates in Melee. PM, on the other hand, can fix their problems.
And as I said, I don't want Fox completely reworked, but if the PMDT is really trying to make a balanced game, then leaving spacies the same just for the sake of keeping Melee players happy and having non-spacy mains have to "rise to the challenge" is counter-productive.

As a Wario main, I wish more characters had a comparable level of balance to my main. Wario has very well defined strengths and weaknesses.

On one hand, he has pretty good combos, a good grab game, some nice mix-ups, solid kill options, and he has top tier air mobility.
On the other hand, he is very easily gimped, he has poor range on most of his moves, he is at a pretty horrible weight because IMO he is combo food. His biggest problem, however, is that he has 2 polarizing matchups (Fox and Marth) that he are borderline unwinnable.

Despite the horrid matchups, I think Wario's balance is good (and this is reflected in the population's opinion of him as well)
I don't think it is unreasonable to want for a game that patches to make other characters like Fox similarly balanced.
You know, keep the strengths, but accentuate their weaknesses?

Pretty much everyone has bad matchups with Marth and Fox in 3.5 at this point