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Tier List Speculation

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Smash Apprentice
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186
I saw what you meant shortly after I posted, see my edit for that. The tech fail window begins after the last tech input you made, not after your tech actually failed. Both from the quote you posted and from what I know due to frame advance. I'm not sure whether Magus meant that you can't tech for 40 frames after a successful tech or what I just wrote, but I don't think the former is true, so I'd assume he meant the latter. (I performed a quick test on that, but didn't gather enough data to make any definite statement)
 

Magus420

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L and R share the same timer.

It's not 20 frames then 40 frames after those 20. These two windows begin at the same time. The number 40 simply comes from the time you need to wait between two L/R presses. You can press it, then 40 later press it again and it would look like this:

(L/R pressed)
20 Tech
20 No tech
(L/R pressed)
20 Tech
20 No Tech

If you press L/R again before 40 has passed from the last time you pressed it, you begin a new 40 window of not being able to press L/R again to tech, and if you were within the techable window of the previous press when you do this you'll instead flub them.

So if you were to press L/R, and then 15 later press L/R again it'd look like this:

(L/R pressed)
15 Tech
(L/R pressed)
40 No Tech
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
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I saw what you meant shortly after I posted, see my edit for that. The tech fail window begins after the last tech input you made, not after your tech actually failed. Both from the quote you posted and from what I know due to frame advance. I'm not sure whether Magus meant that you can't tech for 40 frames after a successful tech or what I just wrote, but I don't think the former is true, so I'd assume he meant the latter. (I performed a quick test on that, but didn't gather enough data to make any definite statement)
L and R share the same timer.

It's not 20 frames then 40 frames after those 20. These two windows begin at the same time. The number 40 simply comes from the time you need to wait between two L/R presses. You can press it, then 40 later press it again and it would look like this:

(L/R pressed)
20 Tech
20 No tech
(L/R pressed)
20 Tech
20 No Tech

If you press L/R again before 40 has passed from the last time you pressed it, you begin a new 40 window of not being able to press L/R again to tech, and if you were within the techable window of the previous press when you do this you'll instead flub them.

So if you were to press L/R, and then 15 later press L/R again it'd look like this:

(L/R pressed)
15 Tech
(L/R pressed)
40 No Tech
Oops, my bad guys. Thanks for the clarification.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Just Uthrow CG the people you can regardless.
 

Spiffykins

Smash Ace
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Messages
547
What's the general consensus on Zard and Ivysaur?
Most people think they're mid/low. I personally think Zard's a bit more viable than a lot of people seem to, but maybe that's just because Metroid's Zard makes me tingle. I don't really have much of an opinion on Ivy, but nobody's doing exceptionally well with her as far as I know.
 

Archangel

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Most people think they're mid/low. I personally think Zard's a bit more viable than a lot of people seem to, but maybe that's just because Metroid's Zard makes me tingle. I don't really have much of an opinion on Ivy, but nobody's doing exceptionally well with her as far as I know.
Some people are doing decent with Ivy, I think Ivy is an example of a gimmick....like the very definition. As soon as you figure out his strengths and his weaknesses...all of his MU's are brain dead. Either you pick someone who beats him or you pick someone who slowly gets camped out and cheesed.
 

metroid1117

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Most people think they're mid/low. I personally think Zard's a bit more viable than a lot of people seem to, but maybe that's just because Metroid's Zard makes me tingle. I don't really have much of an opinion on Ivy, but nobody's doing exceptionally well with her as far as I know.
Reflex has won every tournament he's entered using Ivysaur, but then it becomes a question of whether it's Reflex being amazing or Ivysuar being better than people thought.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Ivy doesn't impress me, but I play fast approach mobility characters and that's probably her biggest struggle
 

Bryonato

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I would love to see some greatness out of Squirtle. His biggest weakness in Brawl was being tied to PT because by himself he was arguably a high-tier character. I had really hoped that once he got released in PM he would come flying out of the gates but he seems to have some unfortunate weaknesses. Doesn't seem to have to high of a general opinion on him either :/
 

TheReflexWonder

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Yeah, because he was changed so heavily in the transition instead of just being mini-Sheik like he would've been even if we just ported his Brawl stats into PM.
 

TheReflexWonder

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F-Throw -> F-Throw at low percents, yeah. Also, U-Throw would be a legitimate chaingrab on fastfallers in PM's conditions.
 

Translucent

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
354
Yea, I was originally excited to play squirtle because I thought he was going to be an awesome mix between sheik and lucas. But he turned out to be a weird luigi-type character that is just small and has some cool techniques.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I find that I can only do well with squirtle if I just completely ignore all his fancy sideB and shellshifting nonsense. Those things get me hit, and killed more often than not, because they are not second nature to me. And they never will be, because I don't think squirtle is a good or fun enough character for me to put in the time it'd take to learn that stuff. If I just focus on fundamentals, and the occasional downB shenanigans, I can make him passable. The fact that his upB can actually kill on stages with really close blastzones is kinda neat, since nobody ever expects to die when they get hit by it.

Overall though, I just feel like I'm playing Luigi with less range, slower smashes, and has a kinda nifty gimp tool in downB.
 

Kink-Link5

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I had limited to no success trying the character like that, Brown, due to Squirtle's absurdly high SH and slow FF. He can't do basic fundamental stuff like empty hop grab and gets swatted out of the air really easily.

I honestly wouldn't mind F-throw chain grabbing 3-4 times to the edge of the stage and setting up a potential gimp.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I find that I can only do well with squirtle if I just completely ignore all his fancy sideB and shellshifting nonsense. Those things get me hit, and killed more often than not, because they are not second nature to me. And they never will be, because I don't think squirtle is a good or fun enough character for me to put in the time it'd take to learn that stuff. If I just focus on fundamentals, and the occasional downB shenanigans, I can make him passable. The fact that his upB can actually kill on stages with really close blastzones is kinda neat, since nobody ever expects to die when they get hit by it.

Overall though, I just feel like I'm playing Luigi with less range, slower smashes, and has a kinda nifty gimp tool in downB.
I mean, it's easy to say that when people are still figuring out what they find effective and how to approach individual matchups, but there's a good chance you'll find it harder to do that when they realize what beats what. His fundamentals are merely decent, and without those unique mobility options, you're really limiting yourself to a character that doesn't have much room for growth.
 

Aenglaan

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As I've stated before in this thread, I think Ivysaur is the weakest of the Kanto starters. It's excellent when it's opponent is above it, but there isn't that much outside of that.

Charizard can be really good if the player knows what they're doing. Charizard's grabs and n-air, in particualr, stand out as some of it's best options However, I still feel like Charizard still has some issues with much of P:m's cast.

Squirtle is undeniably the best of the 3. While its range is poor and that coupled with the range takes time getting used to, Squirtle has solid smash attacks and grabs. Essentially, it feels a lot like the Fox of the 3.
 

Translucent

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If Squirtle was a mini-sheik lucas hybrid then he would undoubtedly be the best of the three.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Squirtle is undeniably the best of the 3. While its range is poor and that coupled with the range takes time getting used to, Squirtle has solid smash attacks and grabs. Essentially, it feels a lot like the Fox of the 3.
I deny the crap out of that. He's very likely the worst. Ivy isn't amazing, but Ivy is better at what she does than Squirtle is at what he does. Charizard is miles above both of them. He's got a few issues, but he's pretty solid overall.
 

DMG

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Squirtle does not have great Smashes. What he has is Usmash and that move is only relatively good. His grab range is poor, and his throw game lacks for comboing. Having a killing Dthrow just isn't that crucial, or at least shouldn't be for a normal character except Squirtle sucks balls at killing (edge guarding is a different story sometimes) so he might have to rely on that as a killing option. He doesn't have the range to play a poke game on the ground, and unfortunately much of the little range Squirtle does get around to using, he thrusts his body/tail into the move so it's not as impressive.

He's hard to use well and pretty gimmicky. He's an obvious target for buffs imo: Uthrow being a great place to start.


Ivy I'm not a fan of, but for different reasons. She's too defensively orientated in a fairly offensive game. For approaching, she doesn't even have the luxury that Squirtle has of trying to be mobile and mixup grabs to beat shielding. If you jump in the air with Ivy and your opponent is grounded, it tends to be a mistake like 80% of the time. That's just for approaching though, she can try to make do with SH Bair or Razor Leaf defensively.

(No seriously, jumping with Ivy for whatever approach you have in mind is a bad idea. Please don't do it)


Zard is like, 1-2 changes away from being incredibly strong. I'd cringe if he had an Uthrow that was better for CGing or comboing. *Shudders* He has good traits, tends to only get abused by the mobile approaching gods/up close stuffers. I'd put him at the fringe of being in the top or lower half of the game.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I agree that Charizard is by far the best of the 3, although he's been available to play since 2.1 so he's had more time to develop and receive needed changes. He's fairly solid and his design is more cohesive than the other two.

Even though I know very little about him, I'd say Squirtle likely comes in second, but both he and Ivysaur need some serious work.

Also, Water Gun still kinda blows which makes me sad :(
 

Aenglaan

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Zard is like, 1-2 changes away from being incredibly strong. I'd cringe if he had an Uthrow that was better for CGing or comboing. *Shudders* He has good traits, tends to only get abused by the mobile approaching gods/up close stuffers. I'd put him at the fringe of being in the top or lower half of the game.
He's got some good potential. His throws are great and he's got solid range for most of his attacks. I feel like he's not as effective in the air as he should be, though. I mean, sure, he's his f-air and n-air, but he just feels outclassed by other characters in the air, imo.
 

Translucent

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Charizard's nair is so good. It has so much range that covers all around him and is pretty quick. His grounded down-b gives him a huge lift that you can instantly aerial out of which helps him air game. I feel like he is pretty solid in both the air and on the ground.
 

metroid1117

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He's got some good potential. His throws are great and he's got solid range for most of his attacks. I feel like he's not as effective in the air as he should be, though. I mean, sure, he's his f-air and n-air, but he just feels outclassed by other characters in the air, imo.
Charizard's air mobility isn't exactly stellar, but I've had a lot of success with him by staying grounded until I get a hit; Charizard is frighteningly fast for a large and heavy character, with the 4th-fastest run speed in Demo 2.5 (according to MachGo's Statistics List). Because jab hits so high and his dash is so fast, this makes dash-canceled jabs a great option for snuffing out aerial approaches and chasing down opponents.
 
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