Tier List Speculation

[Aenglaan]

That is the case for Jiggs, Falcon and Marth it would seem. For one reason or another. Peach I hear does fantastic in this game still.

I can understand Jiggs and Falcon (while both are mostly identical to what they were in Melee), but I feel Marth is just as deadly as ever. Sure, some characters can do well against him, but he's still a dominant threat in the game.

 

[Oasys17]

I thought that Marth is still supposedly top 4, and wasn't really affected by any new characters. What new characters can give him a hard time?

Might be left over tourney salt by getting beaten by a Brawl player, but Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard. It's very difficult for him to get in on him. I've had trouble with similar matchups like Zelda and Diddy.

 

[CyberZixx]

Might be left over tourney salt by getting beaten by a Brawl player, but Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard. It's very difficult for him to get in on him. I've had trouble with similar matchups like Zelda and Diddy.

Anyone that can handle Marth's range can give him trouble. People like Snake, and Link come to mind.

I don't think Marth is hit near as hard by matchups as say Jiggs. That is not what I meant but him not being as dominant as he was in melee.

 

[Oasys17]

I agree, but I was quoting Translucent because he had asked for newcomers that deal with Marth. That's... What I meant xD

 

[NightShadow6]

I would say that Marth just has to deal with a cast who has more range in general. So its only natural for him to fall from his position in melee where he could zone/space out everyone.

 

[The_NZA]

Everyone's got so much mobility now, too and improved recoveries. Definitely makes Marth's job harder.

 

[BTmoney]

I would like to see a new Match Up (as in name a character with characteristics that actually beat Marth) that Marth actually loses to solidly. If Marth can handle Fox well then I don't see what the hoopla is about.

I don't really see Snake idk.

 

[SpiderMad]

Are you in Chicago, IL?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Marth is too well designed a character to get knocked down very far. He'll likely always be a pretty dangerous tournament threat. I feel like you'd have to tailor make a character to specifically beat Marth, and I don't even know how you'd go about doing that. He's never really been "omfg OP!" but he always has been, and always will be good.

 

[The_NZA]

Something tells me Mario could go in, but that's just a guess.

 

[1MachGO]

I feel like Marth/Mario is 50:50 at worst. If anything, I could see it being 55:45 Marth. Practically all of Marth's move outrange Mario (Jab could probably outrange Mario's fsmash). Marth also has good combos on Mario.

I would like to see a new Match Up (as in name a character with characteristics that actually beat Marth) that Marth actually loses to solidly. If Marth can handle Fox well then I don't see what the hoopla is about.

I don't really see Snake idk.

Marth/Fox is even/stage dependent

Fox/Sheik is 55:45 Fox

Marth/Sheik is 60:40 Sheik

Being able to handle Fox just means you can handle Fox. It doesn't necessarily mean the character has no bad MUs.

 

[Tmacc]

Marth will always be one of the better characters, I feel. His kit is way too strong, and his wavedash and dd are among the best in the game.

 

[BTmoney]

I feel like Marth/Mario is 50:50 at worst. If anything, I could see it being 55:45 Marth. Practically all of Marth's move outrange Mario (Jab could probably outrange Mario's fsmash). Marth also has good combos on Mario.



Marth/Fox is even/stage dependent

Fox/Sheik is 55:45 Fox

Marth/Sheik is 60:40 Sheik

Being able to handle Fox just means you can handle Fox. It doesn't necessarily mean the character has no bad MUs.

I said a new match up lol that would justify marth dropping in viability.
There's not any new character as dynamic as fox so I don't see Marth having new match ups that slay him. Maybe Sonic.

Are you in Chicago, IL?

In the summer I am near(ish) the city, during the academic year I am at (the) OSU
Inbox me or something! I actually don't have a group to play with in the summer as of right now

 

[CyberZixx]

I did not meant to state I think Marth is bad. He is still solid no doubt. His design is just that way, he won't be bad ever. Just that Marth is not the force he was in Melee in this game.

 

[Oasys17]

Yeah, I too, wasn't saying Marth has dropped in viability. But I agree that he's not as... Safe an option, I'd say, in P:M

 

[Professor Pro]

Might be left over tourney salt by getting beaten by a Brawl player, but Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard. It's very difficult for him to get in on him. I've had trouble with similar matchups like Zelda and Diddy.

Is there a hidden projectile that Snake has which I don't know about for why you to have said 'Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard' because otherwise I feel that statement is incredibly wrong if the Marth has any idea on how to play the MU.

 

[CyberZixx]

Is there a hidden projectile that Snake has which I don't know about for why you to have said 'Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard' because otherwise I feel that statement is incredibly wrong if the Marth has any idea on how to play the MU.

I only played snake in one set so I don't know it well. Generally I felt I had to approach, and stay in his face. If you don't snake makes the stage a obstacle course. Good thing is he is kinda slow unless he has game going, you can get in not that hard. Same with staying in his range, not too difficult. I found the match in Marth's favor.

 

[SpiderMad]

In the summer I am near(ish) the city, during the academic year I am at (the) OSU
Inbox me or something! I actually don't have a group to play with in the summer as of right now

When you're in Chicago you should go to the various things we have, like the Glen Ellyn Bi-weeklies or Wavedash Wednesdays at Oak Park.

Are you north like near WI or south of Chicago?

 

[DMG]

All the Marth talk, blah

Marth doesn't really have an influx of bad MU's or something critical holding him down. What he has to deal with is a general shift in the game that has made both recovering and edgeguarding more accessible to the entire cast. Marth had really strong edgeguarding, but he's no longer that special in that area. Meanwhile, his own recovery has stayed the same except this time "Ness" or xyz character doesn't suck as hard at dealing with it.

Onstage, not at lot as changed and there will be very few MU's imo that will shift or challenge regular Marth gameplay. You still got a great grab, WD, DD, Fair, etc. The general gameplan of either outspacing or outmaneuvering on the ground with those tools is the same.

Then you have additional characters who regardless of their standing vs Marth, are also strong contenders for upper spots. That's a lot of work to prove that he should stay near the top, but not enough of a downside to just drop him outside the top 8 imo

 

[CyberZixx]

The Marth talk is my fault. I was not even trying to steer the conversation that way, but I seem to have a knack to get people focused on Marth. Haha. Granted I could talk about Marth all day so no skin off my back.

 

[Oasys17]

Is there a hidden projectile that Snake has which I don't know about for why you to have said 'Snake camps marth REALLY, really hard' because otherwise I feel that statement is incredibly wrong if the Marth has any idea on how to play the MU.

The combination of Downsmash mines, c4, and nades, plus Snakes INSUFFERABLE recovery, make it very difficult for me to get in and do anything effective against the snake player. But feel free to enlighten me.

 

[DMG]

Run up and PS the mines. C4 is a bit more specific but you generally only have to worry about that as a reaction thing instead of an actual projectile threat. Also if the person wants to sticky you for a combo, that will take away the pressure of C4 onstage if they save it to sticky. Nades are ok, but he only gets one and he can end up limiting his mobility/other options if he purposefully holds the grenade for an extended period of time to make it explode closer to you when he throws it. If he quickly lobs it, then he's probably much further away and you only have to focus on dealing with that grenade. It's not like he can lob a single grenade at max/mid range consistently to wall someone out, he loses time and space if he attempts that. However, if you get hit by the mine or the grenade and get sent flying, and then he sets up again, yes that can be annoying. Generally that won't happen though because setting up fully takes time and he generally only gets to do 1 thing at a time. Either set up a Dsmash mine, throw a grenade, C4, Nikita, whatever he wants to do. Sometimes he gets more if he knocks you cleanly offstage by a lot. Either way, starting out and especially at lower %, it's hard for him to be set up completely without feeling the pressure up close and needing to pick different options to swat you away first.

His options to get you off his back are somewhat limited, and up close not a ton of it is reliable besides defensive Upb/OOS. He doesn't "Sheik" you to death up close lol, he can't defend himself that amazing. As Marth at least, if you barrel at him quickly and get near your sword max range, Snake won't have the time to set up some lame camping situation and he will have to further respect how close your character is getting. If you get good at Dash Powershielding, you can take out mines and even reflect back poorly thrown grenades. That should aid you a bit, everything past the camping is whether your character does well at making Snake change his plans. Marth fits under that category quite well.

 

[Professor Pro]

The combination of Downsmash mines, c4, and nades, plus Snakes INSUFFERABLE recovery, make it very difficult for me to get in and do anything effective against the snake player. But feel free to enlighten me.

Well I wouldn't really call Mines a camping tool, they're more stage control which Snake himself can fall victim to.
Nades don't blow up on impact so they're not really effective for camping, it just temporarily forces your opponent temporarily in a defensive position which isn't that effective.

C4 is prob the most effective camping tool but it's only effective on big platformed stages like both of the DK stages and Dreamland, it's garbage for camping on stages without this format.

Also Marth ***** Snake's recovery, by just simply juggling him continously since Snake can't do much out of his recovery, Marth can also (f*** you Jolteon) run off and Dair snake the moment he gets low and trade a hit with the cypher so he can recover, he can juggle Snake pretty hard, he may not be able to get him in a easy position to gimp him but he can gather a really good amount of percent just by juggling him pretty freely.

I really need to get some new matches up cos I have too many old ones and i've gotten better now and understand Snake more and it would help to explain, I was tryna find some but I couldn't
I only think I have this up vs Marth and it's against Jolteon when he didn't know the MU so he looks like a scrub-a-dub and im doing things which don't work as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svr3LxkbBho

He's still not the best Marth, but now he understands the fundamentals of what to do in the MU now (not so much in the vid above lol) and would be able to display, i'll try to get some clips up soon since im going his this Saturday and streaming on www.twitch.tv/Jolte0n

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I did not meant to state I think Marth is bad. He is still solid no doubt. His design is just that way, he won't be bad ever. Just that Marth is not the force he was in Melee in this game.

I agree, but I was quoting Translucent because he had asked for newcomers that deal with Marth. That's... What I meant xD

Marth isn't the force he once was in Melee either. He didn't get worse, he just doesn't have people dominating with him right now. Maybe if Dr. PP starts playing PM more, you'll see.

 

[Deleted member]

from what i can tell, snake vs marth is a pretty close match and puts a lot of duress on both players. that said, i know very little about the MU specifics from neutral, so take my opinion with some degree of skepticism. on the other hand, i think a good starting point with marth would be to upthrow snake upon grabbing him. the character seems to struggle against range juggling in a general way, something marth can finesse well if he goes for an upthrow first. i don't necessarily think the marth should go for a combo out of the upthrow though. play around with that idea and tell us how it works out?

 

[Overswarm]

Snake vs. Marth will go firmly into Marth's favor in time. There is absolutely no reason why Snake should be able to be knocked off stage and make it back without taking a ton of damage, if at all. Once people get the idea down, Snake is going to get absolutely wrecked by Marth off stage. It's possible the on stage game will allow Snake to gain ground but, as it is against Marth, I do not see that occuring.

 

[JOE!]

Link can probably take on Marth very well in this game, similar if not better range with projectiles and all that.

 

[Professor Pro]

Snake vs. Marth will go firmly into Marth's favor in time. There is absolutely no reason why Snake should be able to be knocked off stage and make it back without taking a ton of damage, if at all. Once people get the idea down, Snake is going to get absolutely wrecked by Marth off stage. It's possible the on stage game will allow Snake to gain ground but, as it is against Marth, I do not see that occurring.

I agree Marth ***** Snake while recovering off stage
But were you talking about while he is in the air on stage that he shouldn't get gain ground?
Because even though it's difficult there are still a good few tricks which can get you down which new people using Snake don't utilize and get absolutely air *****.

If you're talking about the general fight of them two on stage that you do not see Snake gaining any ground then I definitely disagree

Though I think this is still in Marth's favour I think a lot of the theory crafting for this MU is based off of experiences of what people know Marth can do and lack of experience and knowledge of what Snake can do and people end up over estimating it.
Every time I play this MU and learn more about what I can do with Snake I see this MU getting closer.

 

[Jolteon]

Well I wouldn't really call Mines a camping tool, they're more stage control which Snake himself can fall victim to.
Nades don't blow up on impact so they're not really effective for camping, it just temporarily forces your opponent temporarily in a defensive position which isn't that effective.

C4 is prob the most effective camping tool but it's only effective on big platformed stages like both of the DK stages and Dreamland, it's garbage for camping on stages without this format.

Also Marth ***** Snake's recovery, by just simply juggling him continously since Snake can't do much out of his recovery, Marth can also (f*** you Jolteon) run off and Dair snake the moment he gets low and trade a hit with the cypher so he can recover, he can juggle Snake pretty hard, he may not be able to get him in a easy position to gimp him but he can gather a really good amount of percent just by juggling him pretty freely.

I really need to get some new matches up cos I have too many old ones and i've gotten better now and understand Snake more and it would help to explain, I was tryna find some but I couldn't
I only think I have this up vs Marth and it's against Jolteon when he didn't know the MU so he looks like a scrub-a-dub and im doing things which don't work as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svr3LxkbBho

He's still not the best Marth, but now he understands the fundamentals of what to do in the MU now (not so much in the vid above lol) and would be able to display, i'll try to get some clips up soon since im going his this Saturday and streaming on www.twitch.tv/Jolte0n

I think the most effective camping tool is the nikita, since it's safe when they're far away due to the end lag. It's still not something that should really give you a problem though, same with nades.

I can pull some matches of Marth vs Snake from my twitch since there are plenty of matches where I get solid wins vs you that portray the MU well, I feel (and vice versa).

Edge guarding snake is pretty simple like you said, just keep swatting them off stage until they die, or if they go low trade with dair. You can also trade with up+b if they're at stage level and the move will kill them.

from what i can tell, snake vs marth is a pretty close match and puts a lot of duress on both players. that said, i know very little about the MU specifics from neutral, so take my opinion with some degree of skepticism. on the other hand, i think a good starting point with marth would be to upthrow snake upon grabbing him. the character seems to struggle against range juggling in a general way, something marth can finesse well if he goes for an upthrow first. i don't necessarily think the marth should go for a combo out of the upthrow though. play around with that idea and tell us how it works out?

This is true, you can shut down snake completely from uthrow. The way I punish snake is the exact way I punish peach, it's just easier to do. You can dthrow/fthrow tech chase regrab on reaction at low/mid percents or uthrow -> wait and react -> juggle off stage -> convert to edgeguard -> stock, another option he gets in PM is the brawl pivot grab which has massive range and beats pretty much every option snake has to land on the stage so its effective on stages like fd/ghz/sv where he's forced to land without a platform.

 

[Oasys17]

You can have two nades out at once. The guy I played against always had one on the ground and one in the hand. Nades blow up on contact with snake if he's holding them. So yeah, he'd run around and generate distance to set up a c4, then stay on the other side of it, toss a nade, pull out another and stare at me. If I got past the nade/c4, I still couldn't hit him, cuz as soon as I did, we'd both explode and the situation would reset. Snake's recovery is still better than marth's in terms of distance, so even being at a % disadvantage wasn't a big deal to him.

 

[Professor Pro]

I think the most effective camping tool is the nikita, since it's safe when they're far away due to the end lag. It's still not something that should really give you a problem though, same with nades.

I can pull some matches of Marth vs Snake from my twitch since there are plenty of matches where I get solid wins vs you that portray the MU well, I feel (and vice versa).

Edge guarding snake is pretty simple like you said, just keep swatting them off stage until they die, or if they go low trade with dair. You can also trade with up+b if they're at stage level and the move will kill them.

I wrote a response to this and it got deleted, or I didn't click the post button like an idiot lol

Well I said before basically that Nikita is an effective defensive tool because you have to respect it because of the end lag of it but it's easily avoidable on stage...so I would say it's a good defensive tool rather than a camping one

And yeah I knew there was matches of us on twitch.tv somewhere but it's among hours of footage where I wouldn't even have a clue where to start looking lol.
And there's no point of you ripping them and uploading them to youtube despite their being some matches which prob show the MU well because im coming around your house tomorrow so we might as well do it then and get some matches recorded SPECIFICALLY for youtube and not just lost footage amongst twitch.

I need some new content up as well.

www.twitch.tv/Jolte0n - PEOPLE, WATCH THIS STREAM TOMORROW

You can have two nades out at once. The guy I played against always had one on the ground and one in the hand. Nades blow up on contact with snake if he's holding them. So yeah, he'd run around and generate distance to set up a c4, then stay on the other side of it, toss a nade, pull out another and stare at me. If I got past the nade/c4, I still couldn't hit him, cuz as soon as I did, we'd both explode and the situation would reset. Snake's recovery is still better than marth's in terms of distance, so even being at a % disadvantage wasn't a big deal to him.

....Are you playing Brawl...you must be playing Brawl and not Project M which is what this thread is about lol....you can't have two nades out in Project M.

http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

And yeah, Snake in Brawl is campy in comparison from what I've seen so no surprize that you felt you got camped, but yeah you are in the wrong thread lol

Project M Snake - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwRIOAZdUPI
Brawl Snake - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLIZGwampHY

Pretty sure you can notice the differences if you watch them both lol

 

[Aenglaan]

Link can probably take on Marth very well in this game, similar if not better range with projectiles and all that.

From my experience, that seems pretty accurate. Link needs to make sure that he can do damage from a distance and be very careful when close up and in the air, but I'd say Link has the tools to preform surprisingly well against Marth.

 

[Oasys17]

I wrote a response to this and it got deleted, or I didn't click the post button like an idiot lol

Well I said before basically that Nikita is an effective defensive tool because you have to respect it because of the end lag of it but it's easily avoidable on stage...so I would say it's a good defensive tool rather than a camping one

And yeah I knew there was matches of us on twitch.tv somewhere but it's among hours of footage where I wouldn't even have a clue where to start looking lol.
And there's no point of you ripping them and uploading them to youtube despite their being some matches which prob show the MU well because im coming around your house tomorrow so we might as well do it then and get some matches recorded SPECIFICALLY for youtube and not just lost footage amongst twitch.

I need some new content up as well.

www.twitch.tv/Jolte0n - PEOPLE, WATCH THIS STREAM TOMORROW


....Are you playing Brawl...you must be playing Brawl and not Project M which is what this thread is about lol....you can't have two nades out in Project M.

http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/

And yeah, Snake in Brawl is campy in comparison from what I've seen so no surprize that you felt you got camped, but yeah you are in the wrong thread lol

Project M Snake - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwRIOAZdUPI
Brawl Snake - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLIZGwampHY

Pretty sure you can notice the differences if you watch them both lol

Nnnnnooo. Lol, it was at ECE for Project M. I don't play Brawl, as Imo, that game is awful. Hmmm.. I swear the player had one in the field and one in his hand at ALL times. *shrugs* Maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

 

[Professor Pro]

There's mines (D-Smash and you visibly see him putting it in the ground), C4's (Down B, you can either stick it to someone or leave it on the floor as another explosive) and grenades.
You must be mistaking him leaving a C4 on the floor for a grenade since it's also black and you can 'have one on the field' as you said lol
But yeah, you can only have one grenade out at a time.

 

[Overswarm]

I agree Marth ***** Snake while recovering off stage
But were you talking about while he is in the air on stage that he shouldn't get gain ground?
Because even though it's difficult there are still a good few tricks which can get you down which new people using Snake don't utilize and get absolutely air *****.

If you're talking about the general fight of them two on stage that you do not see Snake gaining any ground then I definitely disagree

Though I think this is still in Marth's favour I think a lot of the theory crafting for this MU is based off of experiences of what people know Marth can do and lack of experience and knowledge of what Snake can do and people end up over estimating it.
Every time I play this MU and learn more about what I can do with Snake I see this MU getting closer.

I've taken to ignoring hype when it comes to characters and it has served me well; I've been able to make some pretty accurate predictions just by following a few rules.

When you pick a character, you don't have to cross your fingers and hope the matchup is in your favor or neutral by the time everything gets figured out. There have been a few rules that have always been retroactively correct that we can use to judge future performance.

Does my character routinely die at high percentages or low percentages?

If your character, not you yourself but your character, frequently dies at low percentages, that is an obstacle. The more obstacles exist for a character, the less likely they will be good. This isn't necessarily a condemnation of a character; after all, Fox and Falco die at low % fairly consistently. But it IS an obstacle and one that causes considerable grief.

Does my character have a bad recovery?

I went over that in some detail before, but bad recoveries are another obstacle.

Does my character get gimped from a common setup (grab, common aerial trajectory, etc.) that is easy to achieve? Is my opponent's character gimped from one of mine?

If the former is the case your character is almost always going to have a negative success rate. Take Marth vs. Ness in Brawl, for example. No one knows how this matchup would go because Ness simply dies from one grab. Dedede vs. DK, same thing. People argued all day over the matchup but at the end of the day he still had the standing chaingrab. It was easy to start and thus, DK lost the matchup.

Does my character rely on the opponent making a mistake and punishing that mistake, or does my character create the situation?

One of the first things I tell people trying to get better is "stop approaching". To camp good is to be good. Your goal is to sit right outside their range, wait for them to flub something, then start a common setup for damage (whether that be grab, aerial, etc.).

At higher levels that advice still applies... but some characters defy conventional means and are able to actually approach and create positive situations. Fox and Falco's shield pressure is a big and common one. You have like 4 or 5 situations in which you can punish Fox for drill shining or nair shining your shield, but Fox controls each of those situations. You don't punish Fox unless he allows you to do so. Toon Link vs. Jigglypuff is a big one. TLink says "NO U" and throws bombs and boomerangs and arrows and creates dangerous situations for Jiggs. Doesn't matter what Jiggs is doing, doesn't effect TLink. Peach is able to throw a turnip and then follow in with an aerial, safely. Sheik can needle cancel. So on and so forth.

On an individual level it becomes more precise. You play Snake, opponent plays Marth. Does Snake wait for Marth to make a mistake, or is Snake able to reliably rush in and create situations where Marth is at a disadvantage regardless of what he does?

Does my character rely on certain setups and, if so, are they easy to achieve?

Ice Climbers, perfect example. The ICs are not good characters in Melee or Brawl. Powerful, but not good. They require incredibly specific scenarios. If the stage list isn't tailored specifically for them they even fall apart! Getting a grab with the ICs against a good player is NOT easy.

Falco, another easy example. Falco's approach is absolutely awful in almost every respect... except for where it isn't. Add in lasers and the possibility of a dair or grab and suddenly his awful approaches are amazing approaches. Falco relies heavily on lasers, dairs, and grabs (vs. shield) to maintain his offensive potential but it is incredibly easy to achieve.

How many negative engagements can my character suffer before losing a stock?

This is a big one. In Fox vs. Marth, for example, at high level play you'd find the answer hovering between 2-3 on average. Marth grabs Fox on Battlefield, does a ton of damage or kills him. Next grab or strong hit would result in death. Fox grabs Marth, u-throw uair uair uair. Next engagement almost always involved a u-smash that killed Marth.

Jigglypuff vs. Samus though, this allowed for a TON of back and forth. It wasn't some crazy ultra combo, it is a war of attrition. This gives you less variance in the matchup and is a huge advantage Brawl had over Melee. In Melee, at above average levels of play, you typically stuck to the average amount of engagements. A medium level falcon could downthrow to knee a Marth just as well as Darkrain ever could. In Brawl, every situation was a new challenge that involved players trying to outthink each other. When this is the case, the better player is given more opportunities to outthink his opponent and will more likely win.

The more engagements you can survive over your opponent, the higher your chances are. This is one of the reason Jigglypuff absolutely sucked until people started reliably comboing with her instead of just wall-of-paining with bair. If you win 3 out of 4 engagements that's great, but if Jiggs can only withstand 2 major engagements while doing a strategy that allows their opponent to survive 12...

When I hit my opponent, am I given a greater advantage?

This is something people don't think about often as they consider it a "duh" thing. If I hit my opponent, am I put in an advantageous situation. This does not mean "can I combo". It means do they have to do something special so that I don't continually harm them.

Good example? Marth vs. Snake in Brawl. If Marth got Snake in the air in Brawl, Snake took a ton of damage. Not because Marth was super human or anything; he just had a huge advantage. He could juggle him all day with his fair and u-air, no problem.

Marth's u-throw on Fox in Project M or Melee onto a platform was another one. When Marth hit Fox onto a platform, his properties didn't change... but Marth suddenly was in a enourmously advantageous situation. The more likely it was that he was able to maintain that situation, the more likely it was he would win.


There are some other rules, but those are the big ones. Looking at them, Marth is at a pretty consistent advantage over Snake in the long run. I can tell you right now that yes, Marth will begin camping edges or forcing you off them at lower and lower % as part of his gameplan and yes, they will make a "you are dead" edgeguarding algorithm that involves a dair. It's coming if it hasn't happened already. Your only hope is that no one plays Snake or Marth, because the opportunity exists.

Marth is given a much larger advantage over Snake once an engagement begins and, despite Snake's weight, Marth should be living longer than Snake in this matchup in terms of engagements.

If Snake is in the air, Marth should be able to juggle him. You'll find Marth's u-throwing Snakes at medium to high % as time goes on because even though it isn't a combo, Marth can control the space around Snake better than Snake can control it himself.

You'll find that neither Marth nor Snake can approach reliably, but Marth's spacing allows him a far greater reach than Snake and one tippered fair into a grab could be all he needs. Snake has no such luxury.

While the matchup likely won't be impossible, I do not forsee this matchup going well for Snake at all. This isn't a case of not knowing enough about the character, it's more a result of his physical properties. Marth gets Snake off stage and destroys him there. If Marth can get Snake off stage, Marth wins. End of line, pretty much how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Strong Badam]

nb4 everyone says pit is top tier

 

[Tero.]

nb4 everyone says pit is top tier

Been there, done that...


4 months ago

 

[Kink-Link5]

nb4 everyone says pit is top tier

Not with that 2.5 glide he's not.

 

[Bryonato]

Not with that 2.5 glide he's not.

What's wrong with his glide? I find it to be fairly effective.

Pit is definitely top 10 imo. I've been playing him a lot recently as a secondary to cover my bad matchups.

 

[SpiderMad]

Pit is still top tier in 2.5

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4068-post-105100.html#pid105100
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-51#post-15393988