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Tier List Speculation

\Apples

\Apples

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Juushichi said:
I dunno about that. We need SquirtleMaster94 to show up and do work then.
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SquirtleMaster94 is Vidjo. We just don't have a working recording setup around here so the world doesn't know.

Scythe said:
diddy is pretty damn solid, he's just a little odd to play so you don't see him get too much exposure.
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Diddy gets plenty of exposure in the Pacific Northwest: Bladewise and C!z play good Diddys and I fool around with him quite a bit too.
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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yeah, it's always a little jarring for such a good character to have an evenish matchup
 
Oracle

Oracle

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Lol evenish. I dont think any matchup can be even when one character gets guaranteed kills off of grabs at like 80 and the other has to read tech rolls to get any sort of follow up period
 
D

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as a marth guru, i am of the opinion that dk solidly beats marth. then again i also think marth is kinda over-rated in general.
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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Oracle said:
Lol evenish. I dont think any matchup can be even when one character gets guaranteed kills off of grabs at like 80 and the other has to read tech rolls to get any sort of follow up period
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this is a horrendously short sighted view on the match-up that doesn't really prove anything other than your own lack of knowledge. a match-up is not defined by what each characters gets off of a grab, it is but one factor in a large and nebulous web of character interactions. wario gets uthrow u-air kill on sheik at KO percents while sheik has to read their DI to get a followup, yet sheik wins the match-up because she's ****ing sheik and there's hundreds of other variables at play than the grab game. contrarily, the marth-dk match-up is evenish (no further than 55-45 either way, 6-4 if I'm generous) because there are multiple things that both characters do better than each other, such as marth's superior edge guarding, dk's grab game and KOs, the fact that dk's fastest forward facing option in neutral is 13 frames while marth's is 8, the fact that marth has a ****ing sword, etc.. not to mention the fact that marth reacts, not reads, to follow up after an f- or d-throw.
you can't always blame the match-up when you or anyone else from texas loses, rob. you have to accept that sometimes "the best pm region in the world" can and will get outplayed from time to time. the results of a set are not always indicative of the match-up. note how i'm not posting around on the boards about how ddd vs dk makes dk look like a low tier after getting 3-0'd by fly amanita. this is because i respect the game and my opponents enough to realize these facts. i will take my loss, learn from it, and come back stronger next time, not make excuses about the match-up, and i expect sethlon to do the same.
 
D

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MaxwellMouse said:
I'd like to know what you have to say on the details of the match up.
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it's a combination of many things. DK being able to match marth's DD, having similar functional range, marth having difficulty with shield when simple throw set-ups don't work, trading hits unfavorably with DK, and DK just way out-living marth all else equal. oh, and yeah killing at 80 reliably is a big part of that. marth isn't too good at that.

this has nothing to do with SB's play in whatever match you guys are obviously referring to. i just think that marth has a hard time with DK.
 
DMG

DMG

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DMG#931

What it feels like to beat DK with Marth anyone
 
DMG

DMG

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Decent, but he's mostly on the defensive.
 
Archangel

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Umbreon said:
as a marth guru, i am of the opinion that dk solidly beats marth. then again i also think marth is kinda over-rated in general.
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As a Marth Main(in Melee) I'd like to say he is slipping with each update. He's still good mainly because the other characters aren't explored to nearly the same level as the melee vets. However, Unlike Fox/Falco. The other Melee top tier vets are actually at serious risk of dropping from the S-tier rank. In fact, alot of them already have most likely. Marth use to solidly beat alot of characters like GnW and Zelda who are about on par with him now...Not to mention his even-ish MU's are now less evenish-more towards the favor of his enemies(see ganon/Falcon). Then the slight dominations 6-4/65-35 like Marth vs Link, Mario, DK...etc are now his new evenish-MU's.... So...at the rate it's going Marth will have mostly losing/evenish MU's...while it's not bad it still aims him towards the lower end. When the characters beneath him are tweaked to perfection he'll be left taking their place.
 
BTmoney

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Just gonna throw in I think Marth is solidly judged inaccurately (on both extremes) and played for the most part incorrectly because Marth boards.

I have yet to see any MU other than DK (which I don't entirely agree with) that is far enough from even (on the bad side) for it to actually matter

Everytime I want to dedicate myself to Marth to see how true my opinion is I remember how good shine is, and how annoying sheik is


Edit:
His worst MUs are much better than other characters worst MUs (probably 45-55) and I will stand by the claim that Marth does not lose to the assorted bunch of the cast and he didn't in melee
 
DMG

DMG

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Archangel said:
As a Marth Main(in Melee) I'd like to say he is slipping with each update. He's still good mainly because the other characters aren't explored to nearly the same level as the melee vets. However, Unlike Fox/Falco. The other Melee top tier vets are actually at serious risk of dropping from the S-tier rank. In fact, alot of them already have most likely. Marth use to solidly beat alot of characters like GnW and Zelda who are about on par with him now...Not to mention his even-ish MU's are now less evenish-more towards the favor of his enemies(see ganon/Falcon). Then the slight dominations 6-4/65-35 like Marth vs Link, Mario, DK...etc are now his new evenish-MU's.... So...at the rate it's going Marth will have mostly losing/evenish MU's...while it's not bad it still aims him towards the lower end. When the characters beneath him are tweaked to perfection he'll be left taking their place.
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Zelda is not on par with Marth. Zelda wishes Marth didn't exist and she wishes she was as good as him period. G^W has to try a lot harder in neutral vs Marth. I'd ask Dakpo since he plays Sethlon all the time, pretty sure he believes Marth wins (least I think I remember that after our gruesome set). Falcon MU is whatever, basically the same. Ganon's buffs for the MU are pretty slight, and he actually doesn't like the increased KBG on Dthrow that much at lower %. Vs Brawl characters he does very well: 2.5 Sonic was probably the hardest one for him to deal with. He probably beats Ike Wario Lucario ROB Snake, have no idea about Ivy or Sonic anymore, etc. MK right now actually seems pretty even, still a lot of room for MK refining. May even be slightly advantaged vs Marth one day. Not convinced that Mario is even, Mario is a sack of overrated blah blah things. I don't think people realize how "average" Mario's approaching is. I'll give you Link and DK cause that actually sounds reasonable, my gut says Link should lose but it's hard to say for sure. (For clarity, I play Marth in PM. You can feel that he's still fine in PM)

Overall, Marth didn't slip that much. The real thing is that he isn't "special" if you will. He's still really damn good, but his recovery flaws are a bit easier to pick on and he's no longer the scariest range/lame grab/poker. If you aren't convinced by his MU spread in your head, then think of characters that deserve to be listed above him. I've yet to see someone explain why in the hell Diddy is waving his banana in top 6 on some lists, and Marth's as low or lower than like 14th for some people. I can't fathom stuff like that, it's a gross exaggeration because people are willing to put too much faith in PM/buffed characters that frankly tend to not 100% prove themselves. Like the Lucas = Spacies train. That train should derail and fashionably explode overnight.

I think if you have Marth anywhere past 9th or 10th, you're probably crazy. That's giving more than enough leeway as well for people to toss up all their favorite Bowser, Pit, Diddy, Mario, Wolf, and Lucas top 8 extravaganza picks (even though 80% of that is absolute crap). It's not even proven that someone like Peach is now better than Marth, so why are we giving the thumbs up to these other characters.

Beautiful Death said:
hmmm well because I've been thinking that if Snack doesn't do very well against Fox and Falco how could he be top tier y'know
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Snake is really good and honestly frustrating at times (until I pick Marth or Sheik tutututu). His overall defensive strength tends to be through the roof, I'm just glad he is awkward at approaching and sort of awkward at covering certain angles. Nikita is semi god when you have space or pressure going on.

Blacktician said:
Everytime I want to dedicate myself to Marth to see how true my opinion is I remember how good shine is, and how annoying sheik is
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Sheik gay, that's why god invented Fox.
 
ELI-mination

ELI-mination

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DK loses to Marth
Difference is I've played this matchup both ways thousands of times and I'm better with both characters than all of you

So yea theorycraft more

****ing smash community
 
DMG

DMG

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Silly Eli, you wouldn't play a low tier like Marth.
 
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