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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
deadjames
Smash Lord
I don't know man Meta Knight is good, but definitely not that good. I think he's like upper-mid tier at best. Also how is Wario higher than Marth? Wario is good, but not great. As for ZSS and Snake I've changed my opinion about them after spending some time with them, but I still probably wouldn't put them higher than B or C since they both have such terrible approaches and Snake is nowhere near as good at zoning as he was in Brawl. G&W, Lucario, and Charizard are nowhere near that good imo and I think Wolf could potentially be A. Also I think Bowser is better than DK. Lucas, Peach, and Tink should all be A or B, at the very least Tink is definitely better than Link, also a lot of characters have tools to deal with Jiggs and Falcon now, but I'd still say they're at least B, same goes for Ganon because I feel that he's slightly better than Falcon with all of his buffs, as for D, I disagree with pretty much that entire list except for Pikachu who I think is the worst character in the game, imo Zelda, Luigi, Sonic, and Squirtle are all high tier, and Ness and Ike probably both B or C.
Anything and everything.
JUGGERNAUT043
Smash Apprentice
3 things that suprise me are luigis low placement, the wave dash is underrated by a country mile along with the easy setup of dthrow to misfire on fastfallers and fatties, 2 is marios placement, while he has a solid moveset he doesnt have all of docs perks yet like backwards nkick, longer cape to match super sheet in melee, and utilt not having doc range, and the proof of his much lower placement than stated is in tourney results he wins very few compared to the amount who play him, 3 ganondorf is bottom tier as of right now, nobodies made him work in pm so far, and the proof is his terrible tourney results tons play him slim to non succeed which i thinks sad for number 12 in melee tier and even more sad is that somone won a tournament with BRAWL ganondorf and as of now nobody has with pm
JUGGERNAUT043
Smash Apprentice
its cause its 2013 and they have had dumb things about there movesets for 12 years that still arnt fixed^_^! comfy with them or not they still undeniably have OP things for there character types
Oro?!
Smash Hero
How to play mk the right way.
step 1) Pretend you are marth in neutral. Just dd grab/tilt and throw in some Nair if people are jumping in on you.
step 2)throw your opponent offstage with weak moves/throws.
step 3) proceed to turn into a sheik/marth/puff hybrid while edgeguarding.
step 1) Pretend you are marth in neutral. Just dd grab/tilt and throw in some Nair if people are jumping in on you.
step 2)throw your opponent offstage with weak moves/throws.
step 3) proceed to turn into a sheik/marth/puff hybrid while edgeguarding.
Archangel
Smash Hero
nobody is OP'd there are simply characters that are UP'd.
To say that Fox/Falco are OP'd is kinda silly imo. To be 1 and 2(in melee) means overall they are better than the rest but LOOK at the rest of the cast. Not to mention the charcters that are as good as they are pretty much go even with them. The difference is Fox/Falco have an easier time with the not as good characters. That's ENTIRELY different in this game. Where you have by my judgement about 10 50-50 MU's for both Fox/Falco and there could be more. You have some...controversial 45-55 losing MU's for falco. Then you have a whole group of characters that can kill spacies any given day but they lack experience. Spacies atm are only OP'd in development. I think Ness vs Fox could possibly be even some characters are historically late bloomers. Even with the development of melee giving a steroid injection into this game's metagame development it still only really applies to Melee vets(Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Falcon...etc) and Characters that are designed similar to melee vets like a Wolf type character. Nobody like Metaknight, Ivysuar, Pit, or snake exist in melee. for all we know they could be better than fox/falco or they could be low tier. Time hasn't given us the answer yet but that's what it's going to take. Time to develop the new cast members and buffed returning characters.
speaking of DD'ing....is it just me or is something wrong with your ability to DD quickly in this game?
well not with everyone but sometimes with the brawl characters I feel like I can't quick DD or I'm going to trip and fall lol.
It is pretty funny how Fox and Falco weren't exactly winning 'everything' in Melee, and everything except them (and maybe Jiggs) got directly intentionally improved, and they're better proportionally than the PM cast in the public-eye.
I'd really like to see what tips things over the edge with some of the more 'stable' characters. Like Mario, gets a lot of talk about being good, but when is that tipping point? He was 'ok' in Melee, got fused with some of Doc's 'better' qualities, surely that's worth a 'couple placements' or something. Better Fire-balls, better DD, random improvements here and there.
For fun, in a world where Mario > the rest of the cast, what would Mario look like/have different than the current Mario?
In other news, isn't this game amazing?
Like, screw M2 and Roy and whatever else, if the game was exactly as it is, right now, for ever, it would have an amazing near and distant future. Stable yet flashy, professional yet fan-flavored, yet... there's more coming...
Screw more, hype for PM 2.6b!!!
I'd really like to see what tips things over the edge with some of the more 'stable' characters. Like Mario, gets a lot of talk about being good, but when is that tipping point? He was 'ok' in Melee, got fused with some of Doc's 'better' qualities, surely that's worth a 'couple placements' or something. Better Fire-balls, better DD, random improvements here and there.
For fun, in a world where Mario > the rest of the cast, what would Mario look like/have different than the current Mario?
In other news, isn't this game amazing?
Like, screw M2 and Roy and whatever else, if the game was exactly as it is, right now, for ever, it would have an amazing near and distant future. Stable yet flashy, professional yet fan-flavored, yet... there's more coming...
Screw more, hype for PM 2.6b!!!
Peach in recent years too, and Jiggs probably on par with them...
In all seriousness though, I'm curious to know the OPPOSITE of what most Spacie-hate has in mind...
IF WE BUFF EVERYONE TO BE ON PAR WITH THEM...
What would the characters NEED? What would they LOOK LIKE?
Sure, ridiculous polarizing stuff could happen, but disregard that. What would Mario need to further improve him JUST ENOUGH to be on-par with Fox and Falco? Same for... Snake, Bowser, etc?
It's interesting and yet nobody talks about it, despite how much focus there is on making characters 'good enough' but not 'too good' and this gravitates to a select few being consistently 'the only candidates for too good'
In all seriousness though, I'm curious to know the OPPOSITE of what most Spacie-hate has in mind...
IF WE BUFF EVERYONE TO BE ON PAR WITH THEM...
What would the characters NEED? What would they LOOK LIKE?
Sure, ridiculous polarizing stuff could happen, but disregard that. What would Mario need to further improve him JUST ENOUGH to be on-par with Fox and Falco? Same for... Snake, Bowser, etc?
It's interesting and yet nobody talks about it, despite how much focus there is on making characters 'good enough' but not 'too good' and this gravitates to a select few being consistently 'the only candidates for too good'
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Mario isn't on par with Spacies? He is better than Mario/Doc in practically every way already... Shroomed has proven countless times that Doc can top 8 nationals.
Exactly^
What's the deal with Fox/Falco being better still, and what's the deal that will break it so it's finally considered that way?
Edit: I'm talking about the general tier-consensus of the mass population here. Not who's 'actually' better/worse, but what's the deal with why it hasn't flipped in the mass-populace-tier-list-imo's, and what WILL flip it?
What's the deal with Fox/Falco being better still, and what's the deal that will break it so it's finally considered that way?
Edit: I'm talking about the general tier-consensus of the mass population here. Not who's 'actually' better/worse, but what's the deal with why it hasn't flipped in the mass-populace-tier-list-imo's, and what WILL flip it?
dettadeus
Smash Lord
don't forget step 2.5) you are melee sheik when you get a grab
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I mean, he doesn't get tons of easy chaingrabs, but he does have a ton of time to react to most tech situations.
If Mario was > than everyone else, he would have excellent approaching by either having safe/big range, or by having a DD game similar to Falcon. Combine the two and he would be banned, especially some combination of grab range buff + dd buff.
Um wat. Marth has very few players in tournaments these days. PPU is one of the few mains I can think of that you usually see (not "Hey M2K decided to use Marth and be legendary status today/Blue Moon)If we're talking about Spacies, think about PP or Mango usually at the top with one of them and idk how many Fox secondaries or mains there are out there. SFAT plays him, Unknown sometimes whips him out, M2K gives him a whirl, Kels with Fox too, etc. List is pretty significant and the results they garner are significant.
If we are talking about did, as in long time ago in the land of Melee at MLG, sure I guess.
You would have to make Mario completely ridiculous. Make Mario so strong, that he doesn't have a losing/questionably losing MU to:
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
MK
Now sure, if you make a monster like that then he could be on par with Fox. However, Mario may have issues with the newly revamped Wario, who's Waft kills at 0% on every character and charges in 20 seconds. That Wario would lose to the Snake who's Upb cover's 1/3rd of the screen and is invincible until you let go. That Snake would then lose to the Bowser who is literally coded to be ungrabbable, and can cancel his Upb on the ground with attacks and retain invinciblity. Who would still lose to Sheik.
Buffing everyone up to Fox and Falco WOULD have to be done in 1 quick, ridiculous patch, because it would not be fair to have a bunch of Fox like characters run around while D3 or Squirtle lagged behind. Hell, even with your best effort at balancing every character in the game to a Spacie level, WHILE treating this game as Project M instead of Brawl ****in Minus, you would still possibly have huge MU inbalances or incredibly homogenized aspects. Everybody has a good recovery, amazing CG's, moves you can't CC, nasty projectiles, 1HKO moves, very low lag, Big Swords, the list goes on. You're statistically not likely to accomplish such a feat with the entire cast, and you would alienate the cast members who either can't keep up or who get "blowback" bodied by the new tools people have. There would be massive unintended consequences. Not to mention you would have to effectively destroy the "personality" of characters by giving them ridiculous tools and traits that don't fit, all in the name of some incredible power creep that isn't warranted.
Most reasonable people don't even bother considering theorycrafting a world like that, because at the end of the day you would be playing Super Hyper Turbo Smash Brothers: Capcom On Crack Edition and we'd probably be looking at the next MVC2, with 30+ Sentinel Storm Magneto Cable characters.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
The argument was that Mario has decent matchups with Spacies, not the entirety of the cast.
Let's just go with Brawl+ 4.3 Ness and put that into PM 
#FreePMSocial
#FreePMSocial
deadjames
Smash Lord
I think spacies have a slightly advantageous MU against Mario, if only because their fall speed makes it really easy for them to escape his jab follow ups, but because of Mario's CG and cape edge-guards I'd say it's pretty close to even.
Dayum, making Mario a god wasn't what I was asking, that's easy enough.
With Mario, still being Mario as much as possible, none of this Ivan Ooze stuff, how can he be the best in the game?
JUST good enough to be the best, NOT overpowered beyond reason. lol
Just...
A Tier = Mario, someone, someone, 5 other characters, etc
Edit: With the comments about, if spacies aren't really his issue, what does he need then? F-Tilt with Luigi-F-Tilt range and and U-Tilt to have more Diddy U-Tilt range, and D-Tilt to have Ike D-Smash knock-back and trajectory Doc style, all with the purpose of just getting more trajectory-combo control and range to deal with some character's F-Air walls? WHAT would be the tipper? Not RAW BREAK THE GAME, but surely there's like... ONE TINY TWEAK that will make him go gg IIIII'm THE BEST!
With Mario, still being Mario as much as possible, none of this Ivan Ooze stuff, how can he be the best in the game?
JUST good enough to be the best, NOT overpowered beyond reason. lol
Just...
A Tier = Mario, someone, someone, 5 other characters, etc
Edit: With the comments about, if spacies aren't really his issue, what does he need then? F-Tilt with Luigi-F-Tilt range and and U-Tilt to have more Diddy U-Tilt range, and D-Tilt to have Ike D-Smash knock-back and trajectory Doc style, all with the purpose of just getting more trajectory-combo control and range to deal with some character's F-Air walls? WHAT would be the tipper? Not RAW BREAK THE GAME, but surely there's like... ONE TINY TWEAK that will make him go gg IIIII'm THE BEST!
Where's that at? I haven't seen people talk exclusively about that, I'm addressing stuff like "For fun, in a world where Mario > the rest of the cast, what would Mario look like/have different than the current Mario?" and "IF WE BUFF EVERYONE TO BE ON PAR WITH THEM...".
If you guys mean buff people strictly to have a 50:50 MU with Spacies, you would still have a bunch of imbalances and unintended consequences. There would be a lot of better DDing characters, more CG's, stronger edge guarding, more range/grab range, etc. Those are universal buffs a lot of characters would get, and you would still skew things heavily in the non Spacie related MU's.
How to make Mario the absolute best character with no debate:
1. Have speed or range to deal with the current range disadvantages he goes through. Why? It doesn't matter if you can CG Spacies to Death, or manage to get an even MU with them. You'll have to compete then with the characters that have much bigger range and can keep you out.
2. Have more speed or range. Seriously. Minor tweaks like buffing his tilts a bit, or making Dsmash hit harder, probably won't make him the best. You want him to be the best? Fix fundamental and core flaws, not itty bitty stuff like making cape pixels wider or adding 2% damage on Uair, or adding sparkles to Fair. Characters tend to need big peepee tools to truly go even with Tha Space Dolphins. Stuff needs to be ridiculously good to beat very strong characters.
Characters that could use "tiny tweaks" to beat Spacies and/or be considered the best in the game: 2.1 Ike, 2.1/2.5 Sonic, 2.1 Lucario, Sheik
Just about everyone else would need buffs that have clear impacts on the rest of their MU. More grab range so you can pivot grab any Spacie approach? Good luck to Pikachu winning against your character. Uthrow CG to death? Sorry Falcon, Wolf, Lucas, etc. Minorly buffed tilts? Might change some aspects, of some MU's, without ruining them or completely pooing on stuff. A Mario Utilt closer to Diddy's Utilt probably isn't gonna mean a damn thing against Spacies, but might stuff some Falcon approaches better and make the MU slower for Falcon against Mario. Asking for extremely precise and "minor" buffs that supposedly would give people 50:50 with Spacies, without really changing that character's other MU's, is probably asking for the impossible. To make a character go even, AND then also be the best character in the game, chances are you aren't dealing with "minor" changes at that point now are we?
Seriously though, let me reiterate that because I think the fundamental question posed is flawed. You want us to come up with minor buffs to a character, to make them the best? I'm not sure if buffs that potent can even be considered minor at that point. To put Mario, or any character, above the threshold Fox currently sits at, yells anything but minor or healthy. The only way you could do that, is if you effectively cheated and did a 300+ list of small changes patch to patch where the character eventually progressed up to that level. The accumulative effect of those buffs though would be the same as much bigger buffs obviously.
Idk, you're asking for an incredibly grand idea lol. I could make a broken Mario with 5 minutes and some crayons. Making him the absolute best, with buffs so tiny you barely want to mention them in patch notes or to a friend? Ain't happening.
If you guys mean buff people strictly to have a 50:50 MU with Spacies, you would still have a bunch of imbalances and unintended consequences. There would be a lot of better DDing characters, more CG's, stronger edge guarding, more range/grab range, etc. Those are universal buffs a lot of characters would get, and you would still skew things heavily in the non Spacie related MU's.
How to make Mario the absolute best character with no debate:
1. Have speed or range to deal with the current range disadvantages he goes through. Why? It doesn't matter if you can CG Spacies to Death, or manage to get an even MU with them. You'll have to compete then with the characters that have much bigger range and can keep you out.
2. Have more speed or range. Seriously. Minor tweaks like buffing his tilts a bit, or making Dsmash hit harder, probably won't make him the best. You want him to be the best? Fix fundamental and core flaws, not itty bitty stuff like making cape pixels wider or adding 2% damage on Uair, or adding sparkles to Fair. Characters tend to need big peepee tools to truly go even with Tha Space Dolphins. Stuff needs to be ridiculously good to beat very strong characters.
Characters that could use "tiny tweaks" to beat Spacies and/or be considered the best in the game: 2.1 Ike, 2.1/2.5 Sonic, 2.1 Lucario, Sheik
Just about everyone else would need buffs that have clear impacts on the rest of their MU. More grab range so you can pivot grab any Spacie approach? Good luck to Pikachu winning against your character. Uthrow CG to death? Sorry Falcon, Wolf, Lucas, etc. Minorly buffed tilts? Might change some aspects, of some MU's, without ruining them or completely pooing on stuff. A Mario Utilt closer to Diddy's Utilt probably isn't gonna mean a damn thing against Spacies, but might stuff some Falcon approaches better and make the MU slower for Falcon against Mario. Asking for extremely precise and "minor" buffs that supposedly would give people 50:50 with Spacies, without really changing that character's other MU's, is probably asking for the impossible. To make a character go even, AND then also be the best character in the game, chances are you aren't dealing with "minor" changes at that point now are we?
Seriously though, let me reiterate that because I think the fundamental question posed is flawed. You want us to come up with minor buffs to a character, to make them the best? I'm not sure if buffs that potent can even be considered minor at that point. To put Mario, or any character, above the threshold Fox currently sits at, yells anything but minor or healthy. The only way you could do that, is if you effectively cheated and did a 300+ list of small changes patch to patch where the character eventually progressed up to that level. The accumulative effect of those buffs though would be the same as much bigger buffs obviously.
Idk, you're asking for an incredibly grand idea lol. I could make a broken Mario with 5 minutes and some crayons. Making him the absolute best, with buffs so tiny you barely want to mention them in patch notes or to a friend? Ain't happening.
Ariyo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 4, 2012
- Messages
- 123
I dont think Fox and Falco need much of a change, though some things are definitely dumb. Like Fox upsmash and Falco's lasers, personally. But when it comes down to it, almost every character has something ridiculous. Falcon's knee and ability to combo into it. Marth's range overall. Ivysaur's back air and razor leaf. Bowser's upB. Ness's pk fire. Etc, etc. I think every character has something that makes them kinda ********.
Solution: Change everyone into Pichu.
Solution: Change everyone into Pichu.
deadjames
Smash Lord
How exactly is Ness' PK Fire ridiculous? It's incredibly easy to SDI out of. Also I don't see anything wrong with Marth or Bowser, but I could be biased since I play both of those characters, either way I think Bowser needs all he can get just to stay viable, and Falcon's knee may be ridiculous, but it usually requires a hell of a read for Falcon to gain momentum in most MUs.
Ariyo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 4, 2012
- Messages
- 123
I'm not saying that these things should be taken from certain characters. Every character has to have something that demands respect. It's what makes them viable. PK Fire puts you into a situation that the Ness has a large amount of control over. Not saying it's a razor leaf or a laser, but it's definitely not something to overlook. And if Falcon's knee was nerfed in any way, he'd get hard-gay spankings from the whole cast.
Falcon's so polarized that it's ridiculous.
He's at the mercy of basically every character in the game if they ever touch him, and he kind of just hopes that he can dish out more punishment with his autocombos than they can to him. Either that, or he just massively outplays you and/or you fall for his cheese.
We'll just have to wait for 20XX for Falcon.
He's at the mercy of basically every character in the game if they ever touch him, and he kind of just hopes that he can dish out more punishment with his autocombos than they can to him. Either that, or he just massively outplays you and/or you fall for his cheese.
We'll just have to wait for 20XX for Falcon.
deadjames
Smash Lord
I'm not saying Falcon's knee should be nerfed, I thought that's what you were saying, personally I think Lucas' PK Freeze is more annoying than Ness' PK Fire, but then again I feel like Lucas is just a better character in general.
He should be able to transform the phoenix into a sword... of fire. A fire sword.
#FreePMSocial
#FreePMSocial
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Sorry for off topic, but name of player/link?
How to make any character better than Fox/Falco:
Give them a great neutral game through great mobility/pewpewlasers or something similar and a fairly good punish/combo game. Bam, every character is theoretically as good or better than Fox/Falco, probably better since they won't die off of a mistake or two.
Except that's boring as **** and I honestly think Fox/Falco are mostly fine and don't need much changed as long as you're fine with them being fairly obnoxious to play against since one moment they have complete control over you and are dictating the pace of the game, and the next moment they made a mistake and now they're getting comboed to death.
Give them a great neutral game through great mobility/pewpewlasers or something similar and a fairly good punish/combo game. Bam, every character is theoretically as good or better than Fox/Falco, probably better since they won't die off of a mistake or two.
Except that's boring as **** and I honestly think Fox/Falco are mostly fine and don't need much changed as long as you're fine with them being fairly obnoxious to play against since one moment they have complete control over you and are dictating the pace of the game, and the next moment they made a mistake and now they're getting comboed to death.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
I want to be the first person to say i think your wrong about this, pikachu to be more specific. Im willing to bet that if 2 equally skilled players went at it, one with pika and one with fox, it would be either 50:50 or pretty close, the winner would come down to the players and not the characters. I know im probably the only one to think this, but i think space animals are one of pikachu's better match ups. Yup i said it
Oracle
Smash Master
I vote we give charizard belly drum where he goes to % 999 but gets turbo mode for the stock. Then he can compete with spacies
Wouldn't 500% be more appropriate?
#FreePMSocial
#FreePMSocial
spacies are still incredibly awfully designed hth
#freepmsocial
#freepmsocial
Its hard to talk about Falcon. One time you'll be saying buff him because he'll get scrapped, other times you'll be screaming because some Falcon main stopped your **** in or something. I'd prefer that he just doesn't have such a horrible recovery anyway. Ex. his recoveries shouldn't have such terrible landing lag.