Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

This is league of legends level whining right here.

League of Legends is an immensely complicated game that features dozens of characters with hapless, broken kits thrown together into a competitive metagame that over the past five years has essentially just barely continued to function. The reason everyone constantly ******* at Riot Games is because Riot Games has only begun to develop the slightest inkling of how to properly design a video game in the past year or so, and now their game is at conflict with itself more than ever as they and their fanbase come to the slow and agonizing process of updating everything that never should have existed in the state it's in in the first place (Sion comes to mind).

The fact that League of Legends has managed to be as successful as it has been is a testament to just how much broken bull**** gamers are willing to deal with - or, in the case of you and thousands if not millions of others, would rather just pretend doesn't actually exist so that you can make a desperate attempt at pretending to be better at a video game than somebody else, which I would describe using the word pathetic if I wasn't sure that being associated with people like you might make the word pathetic lose hope forever and hang itself on Valentine's Day.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Random question: Has anybody considered giving Zelda and Sheik a real Down B? I was thinking about this the other day when looking at PT's individual pokemon.
Would it be possible to make their transformation command a taunt (that they can use on the ground or in mid-air) and give them Down Bs that they can use for other purposes? I guess it's not necessary, but just a thought I was having...

Short answer: It isn't happening. There's a thread in the Zelda sub forum devoted to this: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-k...as-transformation-necessary-anylonger.339271/

Long answer, but not as long as reading the whole thread:
1. What in the world would we give them?
a) It would mean buffing Sheik, which is not good. Sheik does not need a buff. If her new move was useless to prevent buffing, then what's the point?
b) Zelda could have B as light arrows and down-B as nayru's love. That'd be cool, but it would mean changing the Final Smash or something

2. If they couldn't transform at all, that's just sad. It ruins the identity of the character, and some people actually like playing Sheilda

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

haha...hahahahaah......ahahah...AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Link requires MORE finesse and MORE brainpower (maybe not quite so much technique) than the spacies. People have been developing the Spacie metagame for 13 years now. Only the devoted Link fans are familiar with how he best works. His style doesn't match up with any other character, except maybe Young Link from Melee. Link is so tricky because there are so many ways to play him. You can go bomb heavy, aerial heavy, jab heavy, boomerang heavy...heck, you could even play a game that ACTUALLY uses arrows. There are so many "right" ways to play Link, that you have to know all of them. None of them are particularly effective against EVERYONE. you have to change your playstyle to match your opponent.

Part of what made the Spacies so good in Melee is that they didn't have to cater to the current opponent too much. For the most part, you can laser, shine, nair, bair, drill shine (Fox), drill spike (Falco), and up-smash (Fox) your way to victory against darn near anyone. you get to play YOUR favorite game 90% of the time.

Link on the other hand, has a thousand weapons that sort of work, rather than a small handful that work very well. You have to know how to use ALL of his moves. I can't think of the last match I've played as Link where I opted out of using more than 1 of his moves. (F-smash and d-tilt can be sort of situational) That means he requires twice as much brainpower as the spacies. You have to be a little bit faster as a spacie, but that's about it.



No, that Link wasn't very good. If you want some good Link footage, find Hylian, Internet Explorer, and actually JCaesar has a pretty good Link.

I wouldnt say that. Maybe in melee, but in pm both link and spacies are fairly well designed and require skill. Different strengths = different applications of skill

 

[Bleck]

Yes, being good at something requires skill. I'm glad we all had this discussion.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

he's pretty clearly going towards a generalization that these arguments are coming from the same people, it's not exactly subtle when you start off with "this community is full of whiners"

auto combos are a myth, generally made by people with the lack of self-awareness to wonder why marth fair->dair would be no less fitting of that term than anything DK does, this much people already know and doesn't need Yet Another Post by someone who thinks complaining about their character being changed is a new idea

although, I will always find hilarious the idea of "learn to deal with spacies". kids, people have been learning to deal with spacies for thirteen years now, and when they're only barely nerfed, when compared to characters who go low-tier the next patch the second they get close to them in quality, that's a problem

I dont have any problem with spacies myself, they have a surprising amount of weaknesses if you know hiw to exploit them, and with the weakened lasers they are now forced to put themselves in risky situations, effectively neutering the fundamental fox playstyle. And I wouldnt say that these are unjust generalizations when its a fairly common view amongst the pm community. I do respect those that think otherwise however, though they are somewhat sparse.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I wouldnt say that. Maybe in melee, but in pm both link and spacies are fairly well designed and require skill. Different strengths = different applications of skill

I just feel need to dispel this belief that Link's boomerangs are this magical thing that makes you win the game. Everyone is talking about how OP they are, when they're just fine as is. If they were REALLY that OP, Link would be finishing in the top 8 of big tournaments all the time, yet I have seen none (I probably missed 1 or 2). As it stands, Link is good, but not all that fantastic. He's still a heavy character that gets torn apart by a good spacie. A boomerang isn't going to change that

 

[Fenrir VII]

he's pretty clearly going towards a generalization that these arguments are coming from the same people, it's not exactly subtle when you start off with "this community is full of whiners"

auto combos are a myth, generally made by people with the lack of self-awareness to wonder why marth fair->dair would be no less fitting of that term than anything DK does, this much people already know and doesn't need Yet Another Post by someone who thinks complaining about their character being changed is a new idea

although, I will always find hilarious the idea of "learn to deal with spacies". kids, people have been learning to deal with spacies for thirteen years now, and when they're only barely nerfed, when compared to characters who go low-tier the next patch the second they get close to them in quality, that's a problem

Would you disagree that there are a lot of whiny posts around this community (as well as Melee and Brawl's...and practically the internet in general) that "X is too strong and needs to be nerfed because it beats my character"?

"Auto-combo" is a stupid term used by stupid people. No disagreement there...but I think that's what he was saying, as well, and addressing it in a different paragraph. I don't believe those were targeted at the same people... just 2 different subsets of people. That's just my opinion, though.

I'm of the opinion that the spacies have received significant nerfs in PM by indirect methods... both by raising the level of the rest of the cast, and by slight physics changes that have significant impacts on combos and Firefox, in particular.
Fox in particular had no bad matchups in Melee, but he had quite a few 6-4's (mostly even) against a myriad of characters across the tier list... because those characters have received buffs, I do think Fox has bad matchups now... and I do think we'll see his use and effectiveness taper off a bit as people develop their new characters.

But the second part of your statement is what I respond harshly to... I see a lot of kneejerk reactions because X is "OP"... rather than people taking the time to learn how to deal with it. At this point, there's nothing that we know of that's even close to the unbalance that existed in Melee (not to even mention Brawl MK), so I truly think we need to slow-down the character changes, learn the metagames, see if anything jumps out as "broken" again, and fix it then... This nerf-hammer reaction to things that initially seem harsh is adverse to the metagame and the community at this point (Because we've been mostly aware of PM's overall balance for quite a while now).

 

[trash?]

but again: why aren't others getting the space animal treatment of "wait and see"? ivysaur was close to getting near them. so was wario, arguably (though I still think hylian was a bit overreactive, nobody doubted that wario was damn good at what he did). why did they only get nerfs, with ivysaur in particular being changed majorly, when space animals are supposed to be nerfed through others being better? why is that mindset not applied to sonic when, when someone managed to do incredibly well, and, dare I say, proved that there existed a counter to space animals for once, why did sonic proceed to be thrown to the ground?

this is the one criticism I will always give the project m backroom. their mindsets are inconsistent, and they need to clearly be either for the idea of "wait and see", or against. you cannot cherry-pick which characters you give this mindset to, solely to please a small number of people.

 

[Bleck]

The "wait and see" balance approach leads to a community that's been playing Melee for 13 years and still can't admit that Fox is too strong.

 

[Fenrir VII]

but again: why aren't others getting the space animal treatment of "wait and see"? ivysaur was close to getting near them. so was wario, arguably (though I still think hylian was a bit overreactive, nobody doubted that wario was damn good at what he did). why did they only get nerfs, with ivysaur in particular being changed majorly, when space animals are supposed to be nerfed through others being better? why is that mindset not applied to sonic when, when someone managed to do incredibly well, and, dare I say, proved that there existed a counter to space animals for once, why did sonic proceed to be thrown to the ground?

this is the one criticism I will always give the project m backroom. their mindsets are inconsistent, and they need to clearly be either for the idea of "wait and see", or against. you cannot cherry-pick which characters you give this mindset to to please a small number of people.

True. I completely agree with this post, in particular the bolded parts. That's what I'm arguing for... consistency in how we deal with "OP" issues

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

but again: why aren't others getting the space animal treatment of "wait and see"? ivysaur was close to getting near them. so was wario, arguably. why did they only get nerfs, with ivysaur in particular being changed majorly, when space animals are supposed to be nerfed through others being better? why is that mindset not applied to sonic when, when someone managed to do incredibly well, and, dare I say, proved that there existed a counter to space animals for once, why did sonic proceed to be thrown to the ground?

this is the one criticism I will always give the project m backroom. their mindsets are inconsistent, and they need to clearly be either for the idea of "wait and see", or against. you cannot cherry-pick which characters you give this mindset to to please a small number of people.

Lol I dont understand why you disagree with me when I feel pretty similarly and have been saying nearly the same thing. The only thing I disagree with is the general belief of the spacies dominance in the meta game, they really arent that commanding at all. I also disagree with the notion that 2.1 ike and 2.5 sonic were below spacies in terms of ability (not nevessarily you).

 

[Vashimus]

The "wait and see" balance approach leads to a community that's been playing Melee for 13 years and still can't admit that Fox is too strong.

People played "wait and see" with Fox in Melee for over a decade because they had no choice. They couldn't simply patch the game and rebalance the cast. Either you learned to deal with Fox, or you just didn't play Melee.

 

[ELI-mination]

2.1 Ike was certainly exaggerated in terms of how good he was. He wasn't really that amazing. He just didn't make that much sense as a character and that's why his current iteration is so much better.

 

[SixSaw]

haha...hahahahaah......ahahah...AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Link requires MORE finesse and MORE brainpower (maybe not quite so much technique) than the spacies. People have been developing the Spacie metagame for 13 years now. Only the devoted Link fans are familiar with how he best works. His style doesn't match up with any other character, except maybe Young Link from Melee. Link is so tricky because there are so many ways to play him. You can go bomb heavy, aerial heavy, jab heavy, boomerang heavy...heck, you could even play a game that ACTUALLY uses arrows. There are so many "right" ways to play Link, that you have to know all of them. None of them are particularly effective against EVERYONE. you have to change your playstyle to match your opponent.

Part of what made the Spacies so good in Melee is that they didn't have to cater to the current opponent too much. For the most part, you can laser, shine, nair, bair, drill shine (Fox), drill spike (Falco), and up-smash (Fox) your way to victory against darn near anyone. you get to play YOUR favorite game 90% of the time.

Link on the other hand, has a thousand weapons that sort of work, rather than a small handful that work very well. You have to know how to use ALL of his moves. I can't think of the last match I've played as Link where I opted out of using more than 1 of his moves. (F-smash and d-tilt can be sort of situational) That means he requires twice as much brainpower as the spacies. You have to be a little bit faster as a spacie, but that's about it.



No, that Link wasn't very good. If you want some good Link footage, find Hylian, Internet Explorer, and actually JCaesar has a pretty good Link.

I don't really buy this. It's just a young meta. Eventually Link's play will be distilled down to the most optimal actions just like the spacies' have over their 13 year history. It's inevitable. Lazarond in particular shows off how effective Link can be when you ditch the flashiness and just go for what works. He spams dash attack because it's a ridiculously good move and lo and behold it wins matches.

Also Laz could whoop JC, MM when

 

[Bleck]

People played "wait and see" with Fox in Melee for over a decade because they had no choice. They couldn't simply patch the game and rebalance the cast. Either you learned to deal with Fox, or you just didn't play Melee.

Right, but take Project M's existence into account - there was nothing to be done about how strong Fox (and Falco) were in Melee, but now we have a team who can do something about it, and we're basically just continuing forward with the idea that Fox is totally okay, I guess?

I mean, this all started with people complaining that Link's boomerang was too versatile a tool, right? Well, I posit that characters are only ever going to have tools that are too versatile, or at least appear to be, if the standard through which they're being balanced is one that thinks Fox is okay.

I don't know if Link is overpowered, or if Pit is overpowered, or whoever else is gonna be the topic of discussion - but it's been 13 years and I'm pretty sure that we can all take a deep breath and admit to ourselves that Fox is a little too strong, I think.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't really buy this. It's just a young meta. Eventually Link's play will be distilled down to the most optimal actions just like the spacies' have over their 13 year history. It's inevitable. Lazarond in particular shows off how effective Link can be when you ditch the flashiness and just go for what works. He spams dash attack because it's a ridiculously good move and lo and behold it wins matches.

Also Laz could whoop JC, MM when

Honestly, the other big problem with the backroom is how much they defer to removing an option that seems dangerous instead of just toning it down.

For example, Wario crouching out of down b was removed because it wasn't committal enough. So then, why straight out remove it? Why not make it less committal and see if that fixes the problem (while still keeping the option). It could have been easy--You could have made it so crouching didn't immediately cancel it, or caused a skid where nothing could be done, or you couldn't skid until frame X similar to Ike's "you can't jump out of QD until frame Y". But instead, they straight took it out.

Same with jumping out of downb for sonic. Surely that could have been toned down without being straight removed.

 

[Juker]

Right, but take Project M's existence into account - there was nothing to be done about how strong Fox (and Falco) were in Melee, but now we have a team who can do something about it, and we're basically just continuing forward with the idea that Fox is totally okay, I guess?

I mean, this all started with people complaining that Link's boomerang was too versatile a tool, right? Well, I posit that characters are only ever going to have tools that are too versatile, or at least appear to be, if the standard through which they're being balanced is one that thinks Fox is okay.

I don't know if Link is overpowered, or if Pit is overpowered, or whoever else is gonna be the topic of discussion - but it's been 13 years and I'm pretty sure that we can all take a deep breath and admit to ourselves that Fox is a little too strong, I think.

It hasn't been 13 years; this isn't Melee. There are way too many new variables. Fox doesn't seem overpowered, I don't think; time will tell.

 

[Infil]

Are there people who think Fox won't be in the eventual top 5 characters in this game, if 3.02 was the final release and we played it for 5 years solid? Really, the only question is... is he the best character in the game, or just very, very close to the best.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as they're consistent in their treatment of characters, and others have argued that maybe they haven't been. In general, though, I think Fox being kept as is will be okay as long as people find one or two decent counterpicks against him (and 5-5 is not a counterpick).

 

[Strong Badam]

NZA what game are you playing? Sonic has been able to jump out of Down-B since 1.0.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

Right, but take Project M's existence into account - there was nothing to be done about how strong Fox (and Falco) were in Melee, but now we have a team who can do something about it, and we're basically just continuing forward with the idea that Fox is totally okay, I guess?

I mean, this all started with people complaining that Link's boomerang was too versatile a tool, right? Well, I posit that characters are only ever going to have tools that are too versatile, or at least appear to be, if the standard through which they're being balanced is one that thinks Fox is okay.

I don't know if Link is overpowered, or if Pit is overpowered, or whoever else is gonna be the topic of discussion - but it's been 13 years and I'm pretty sure that we can all take a deep breath and admit to ourselves that Fox is a little too strong, I think.

Ive mained low/mid tiers in melee and I never felt he was too strong there. People have believed fox was the best character in melee despite not having a favorable player count: wins ratio and netting few wins over majors for many years, that they have the idea burned into their minds that he is unbeatable/stronger by a margin.

Are there people who think Fox won't be in the eventual top 5 characters in this game, if 3.02 was the final release and we played it for 5 years solid? Really, the only question is... is he the best character in the game, or just very, very close to the best.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as they're consistent in their treatment of characters, and others have argued that maybe they haven't been. In general, though, I think Fox being kept as is will be okay as long as people find one or two decent counterpicks against him (and 5-5 is not a counterpick).

Matchups in smash are really overrated. The tier list and individual MUs have never been too much of a limiting factor on success, even when you play weaker players the gap in character ability can be accounted for in skill. This is unique to smash. Characters do not need to have losing MUs just for the sake of them, and all well balanced and versatile characters with few shortcomings will at worst have 5-5 but will have trouble having many 6-4 or better matchups against other characters. Mario, spacies, and sheik all fall into this category. Turning smash into super counterpick bros will only further unbalance the game and make winning sets more about rock paper scissors than true skill, and its not necessary to reward players who are well versed in many charavters over those who prefer to simply play their favorites.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't really buy this. It's just a young meta. Eventually Link's play will be distilled down to the most optimal actions just like the spacies' have over their 13 year history. It's inevitable. Lazarond in particular shows off how effective Link can be when you ditch the flashiness and just go for what works. He spams dash attack because it's a ridiculously good move and lo and behold it wins matches.

Also Laz could whoop JC, MM when

Based on the one matchup I saw (Oro posted a few pages back), Laz was pretty much relying on his opponent not knowing how to punish Link out of shield, or how to mixup Spacie recoveries... I'm not exactly detracting Laz as a player for that, but I don't think that match in particular shows how the Link metagame will evolve, at all...

Link has the tools to adapt to different matchups and opponent playstyles... Boomerang may win a match for him against somebody who doesn't know how to deal with it... against somebody else, Bomb mixups may do the trick... against others, Link can ditch the projectile game (almost) entirely and rely on zoning/tech reads with his "GET OVER HERE" grab. He's flexible...that's all I (and Kaeldiar) am saying.

Are there people who think Fox won't be in the eventual top 5 characters in this game, if 3.02 was the final release and we played it for 5 years solid? Really, the only question is... is he the best character in the game, or just very, very close to the best.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as they're consistent in their treatment of characters, and others have argued that maybe they haven't been. In general, though, I think Fox being kept as is will be okay as long as people find one or two decent counterpicks against him (and 5-5 is not a counterpick).

I personally don't think Fox is in the top 5, character-wise, with 3.02. I realize that I'm in the minority, here, but I believe several characters have been brought to a level that will mostly counter him and bring him down to roughly High tier... That's just me though.

 

[Jacob29]

Riot Games bla bla

Riot Game*

 

[The_NZA]

NZA what game are you playing? Sonic has been able to jump out of Down-B since 1.0.

I don't profess to know a lot about Sonic, as I have used the character maybe twice. I'm not sure what the exact debilitating nerfs he received after 2.6 but I presumed that wavedashing and shielding out of Down b was one of them. My bad for expressing different but my point still stands.

Often, the PMBR seems to look to take away options rather than make something perform slightly worse in its function. Personally, I think the Ivy 3.0 changes were a very wise way to approach that character and things of that sort should be done more.

 

[The_Altrox]

2. If they couldn't transform at all, that's just sad. It ruins the identity of the character, and some people actually like playing Sheilda

That's why I suggested that they make the transformation a taunt so that nothing is lost. But yeah, I get the whole issue with Sheik being too strong

 

[Nausicaa]

DON'T YOU KNOW THAT YOU TOXXIIIIIIIIIC

 

[Infil]

Turning smash into super counterpick bros will only further unbalance the game and make winning sets more about rock paper scissors than true skill, and its not necessary to reward players who are well versed in many charavters over those who prefer to simply play their favorites.

I agree that making a counterpick-heavy game is a bad idea, and obviously the balance team should strive for close to 5-5s across the board. However, this is pretty much an unrealistic goal, especially with a character count in the 40s, and characters ranging wildly in toolkits and speed. So the question becomes, what's the best we can realistically do?

What I'd like to see avoided is super counterpick bros where the counterpick is always just Fox or Falco. This is the biggest threat to people "simply playing their favorite character", as you say. If Fox has some characters he struggles against, it will not really prevent Foxes from winning tournaments (which is good), but it will help users of other characters both directly and indirectly.

The reason I don't mind Fox being in the top 5 is because, well... someone has to be in the top 5, and Fox is a character that promotes super fast-paced gameplay and technical skill, things I value in Smash. If the top 5 were composed of slower characters, I think the game would suffer a bit for it. Of course, I'd be fine with other speedy, technical characters being in the top 5 too (for example... Lucas).

 

[DMG]

2.1 Ike would have been fine if he had the current tipper system + fixed hitlag. Not having those made him a bit cheesy, let's not lie. I still never received an explanation why his Fsmash was nearly as strong as Bowser's... while hitting at the very tip of the sword. People legit defended dumb stuff like that about Ike for the longest time... I'm glad he's in a happier place now!

2.1 Ike was certainly exaggerated in terms of how good he was. He wasn't really that amazing. He just didn't make that much sense as a character and that's why his current iteration is so much better.

"Why can't I infinite walljump anymore? WAHHHHHHH"

*Actual complaint someone had about Ike nerfs*

 

[Oro?!]

Pretty sure that was Vro lol.

 

[Rᴏb]

Personally, the only Ike nerf I felt was unnecessary was not being able to JC quickdraw on frame 1. It was certainly versatile, but no where near as versatile as the spacies' JC. Sure, most people were screaming "Ike is OP", but c'mon. People have been saying the same about the spacies for years but the PMBR is too nervous to do **** "because melee".

If the spacies go untouched from now, we are going to continue seeing characters like Sonic, Ivysaur and Bowser become so good but then get nerfed to hell because they get broken aspects added to their kit like the spacies have. Drastic changes like the ones that keep happening are not healthy for this game at all. If the spacies got nerfed enough, we would never have to see stupid **** like Link's boomerang and we would never have to deal with the backlash after the nerfs. Bleck's post says it all.

I mean, this all started with people complaining that Link's boomerang was too versatile a tool, right? Well, I posit that characters are only ever going to have tools that are too versatile, or at least appear to be, if the standard through which they're being balanced is one that thinks Fox is okay.

"Learn the matchup" "git gud" etc. Are not valid arguments btw.

 

[Metazoa]

I just feel need to dispel this belief that Link's boomerangs are this magical thing that makes you win the game. Everyone is talking about how OP they are, when they're just fine as is. If they were REALLY that OP, Link would be finishing in the top 8 of big tournaments all the time, yet I have seen none (I probably missed 1 or 2). As it stands, Link is good, but not all that fantastic. He's still a heavy character that gets torn apart by a good spacie. A boomerang isn't going to change that

I think it's just things we as a whole will have to deal with for PM:
1) Being that it's still not even half a year old, no one has really been fleshed out that wasn't widely used before.
2) Instead of having 7-ish characters to complain about, the community now has 41 characters to complain about.

Although, if the goal of PM is to have all characters be viable in the end, maybe that second part is a good thing.

Actually, on the topic of theoretical changes, is there some kind of "make-over" thread for characters who don't get many changes? I think something like that would be fun to see.

(or we could just continue tearing into each others' hearts)

 

[DMG]

Pretty sure that was Vro lol.

Actually was thinking about DrinkingFood. He didn't have many kind words for the Ike changes at first

 

[woundedust]

Ness also has a quick spike and and PK Pulse (does Up Air kill?).

no. uair cant kill very well

 

[Bryonato]

no. uair cant kill very well

I'm going to redirect you to the last time I quoted your post. Uair is works well for killing in conjunction with the rest of his kit.

 

[woundedust]

I'll give you back 2.1 Ike, if you give Captain Falcon Falco Lasers

one of two things stopping falcon from being tha bes

 

[Fenrir VII]

"Learn the matchup" "git gud" etc. Are not valid arguments btw.

Agreed with most of your post, but not really this part... In many cases, I think these are reasonable arguments.
At the early stages of nearly every fighting game, one particular character or tactic gets the "cheap" or "broken" label because (generally) of its relative ease in use and high priority. After the intro period, though, people usually figure out that the character/tactic is pretty easily beatable.

Heck, when I joined the Melee scene, Sheik was still considered the best character in the game, because Fox hadn't been truly discovered yet, and Sheik was a relatively easy character to use at a high level. (not the best example, because she's still great, but other fighting games have better examples)

So if the players had the power to just insta-nerf characters in the early days of the game, they would essentially be nerfing tactics that aren't all that great once the metagame gets better (and nerfing the characters that use them to the point of killing all character support), which is essentially what we are scared of happening with PM.

 

[woundedust]

I agree with Soft Serve, vets play the game and will claim spacies feel incredibly similar or are even easier in PM. If someone complains they feel slightly different and doesn't play because of that, then screw 'em. The game IS NOT Melee, but they did REALLY good getting as close as possible to the old Melee top tiers, from timing, to graphical effects. The only way for them to be the same is to make the game Melee. I will agree a few characters got overdeveloped and buffed unnecessarily. In Melee there are 5 good characters, in PM there are like 35 or whatever really good characters. Even low tier chars in PM have tools that most would consider somewhat borked in a Melee environment.

The game just needs to balance out and give characters more moves that reward skill, instead of moves that offer immediate gratification for little effort.

you mean fox

 

[woundedust]

The engine differences and adjustments make all characters feel slightly off from their Melee counterpart (or very off, for me going from PAL Melee Ganon to PM Ganon). It doesn't take long to adapt to PM, but going back to Melee with the same characters as in PM just results in missed ledge sweetspots and pointless attempts at reverse jumps. Not only that but there's a great amount of viable, dangerous characters and a fighting a number of them requires specific matchup knowledge.
So yeah, PM is not Melee. I don't see it ever being Melee, so I'm not sure why the PMBR tries to make it a 1:1 port when it's never going to be quite there.

tbh alot of players dont want melee 2.0

 

[Guilu]

Porting some things from Melee make the game better, even if Melee never existed those attributes about the game are good. Not sure where you got us wanting it to be a 1:1 port, our website even says we don't, lol.

*Project M

Looks like you have a communication problem.

The "wait and see" balance approach leads to a community that's been playing Melee for 13 years and still can't admit that Fox is too strong.

> Says no one is overpowered
> Admits toxic elements can creep into the game and have done so in the past
> Wants no discussion on possibly centralizing metagame elements

A++ logic

I honestly just don't want to bother to think about the fact that the game might change. It's useless to debate whether Fox is too strong in Melee because ultimately, it's not going to change. That's why you hear people complaining about the PM whiners, because in those games that never updated, complaints fall on dead ears. They're a waste of time. If I want to get better results all I can do is improve my own skills. The thought that, in PM, those efforts could be wiped away because the game was updated is a terrible one.
And don't give me "Well you'll have improved your fundamentals", because in that case I might as well just play that other game that doesn't have this problem.

So here's to hoping 3.0's balance is final.

 

[woundedust]

Would you disagree that there are a lot of whiny posts around this community (as well as Melee and Brawl's...and practically the internet in general) that "X is too strong and needs to be nerfed because it beats my character"?

"Auto-combo" is a stupid term used by stupid people. No disagreement there...but I think that's what he was saying, as well, and addressing it in a different paragraph. I don't believe those were targeted at the same people... just 2 different subsets of people. That's just my opinion, though.

I'm of the opinion that the spacies have received significant nerfs in PM by indirect methods... both by raising the level of the rest of the cast, and by slight physics changes that have significant impacts on combos and Firefox, in particular.
Fox in particular had no bad matchups in Melee, but he had quite a few 6-4's (mostly even) against a myriad of characters across the tier list... because those characters have received buffs, I do think Fox has bad matchups now... and I do think we'll see his use and effectiveness taper off a bit as people develop their new characters.

But the second part of your statement is what I respond harshly to... I see a lot of kneejerk reactions because X is "OP"... rather than people taking the time to learn how to deal with it. At this point, there's nothing that we know of that's even close to the unbalance that existed in Melee (not to even mention Brawl MK), so I truly think we need to slow-down the character changes, learn the metagames, see if anything jumps out as "broken" again, and fix it then... This nerf-hammer reaction to things that initially seem harsh is adverse to the metagame and the community at this point (Because we've been mostly aware of PM's overall balance for quite a while now).

i agree in the fact that we need to let the meta simmer a little. but when something is stand out OP its a problem: Brawl MK, Melee fox, etc. meta evolved around these gimmicks, granted, with complaining, but there is always gonna be a "best in a game". there is argument yes, but if we wait too long to fix the broken people will rage hard. people dont want to learn mathups when they can get a change. and thats what PM is doing. changing. Give the meta game some time to simmer, then see what needs to be done from there.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

So here's to hoping 3.0's balance is final.

Maybe not final, but hopefully it'll be steady for a year or two before any big changes are made.