Tier List Speculation

[FlamingForce]

I already stated the fact that they trip on contact is bad design because of how advantageous being able to cause tripping from long distance is. I didn't know more explanation was needed other than that.

Also none of those moves are fast projectiles that are safe when thrown and also control the stage once they touch the ground, while also forcing the opponent to tech on top of doing the other two things I just stated.

Bananas also have more uses than what I've stated, I only stated the one thing about Diddy's bananas that is disliked by many people. The fact bananas also trip people while their shielding adds another use to them, especially when combined with Glide Tossing. They would seriously be absolutely fine without tripping on grounded hit.

I also said I respond to bananas fine, not that my banana game was "great." I've been playing a character with items as a main tool since Melee (Young Link) and I play Toon Link in PM. I have a fair item game.

Also I'm not the only person who feels bananas are poorly designed. More well known players, including Diddy players like DLA, feel the same.

Once again, long distance nanners are free if you know what you're doing, they don't fly so fast that you can't shield in time.
Nanners control the stage if you let them.

And my friend's dog feels nanners are fine, anecdotes won't save you here.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Eh, his recovery is overrated. He can't sweetspot the ledge at range, which makes him a Super Captain Falcon. Just stay on the ledge, prepare yourself to intercept if he goes high or just smash him if he goes low.

A super Captain falcon with next to no up-b landing lag + chargeable height and distance mix-ups to help avoid ledge invinc, a projectile to fire onstage, and a Side-b he can act after that is either an air grab or a sex-kick
Yeah sorry that was an awful comparison. MOST characters can't sweetspot at a distance. This a recovery standard, not a recovery flaw.

 

[Phan7om]

Brawl's bananas were miles worse than PM's and we dealt with it. Coming from Brawl, dealing with these naners are a piece of cake.

 

[B.W.]

You both say long distance bananas are free as if they're not free for Diddy as well. I understand that you can just pick bananas up off the ground. But that doesn't make it any less of an approaching tool. Especially if it's a good Diddy and he's following the banana in the first place.

Also yes the banana can trip people out of shield, and no it's not just limited to Glide Tossing a banana under an opponents feet. Please don't make me make a list where long distance tripping is completely reliable or a list of tripping people out of their shields. If you are Diddy players you should know this stuff in the first place.

 

[FlamingForce]

You both say long distance bananas are free as if they're not free for Diddy as well. I understand that you can just pick bananas up off the ground. But that doesn't make it any less of an approaching tool. Especially if it's a good Diddy and he's following the banana in the first place.

Also yes the banana can trip people out of shield, and no it's not just limited to Glide Tossing a banana under an opponents feet. Please don't make me make a list where long distance tripping is completely reliable or a list of tripping people out of their shields. If you are Diddy players you should know this stuff in the first place.

If the opponent diddy gives you the free long distance nanner, don't be that same idiot. It's that simple.

Please provide this list cos I'm deeply intrigued

 

[Axrz]

The only issue I have with diddy is the random rockets on his up b. Who thought that was a good idea?

Also can we please stop talking about who needs to be changed? This is tier list speculation, not "x character is good because y, and z character is bad because w, here's my wishlist for changes." You'd never see people asking for changes in Brawl or Melee.

 

[9bit]

You'd never see people asking for changes in Brawl or Melee.

Gee, wonder why that is...

I agree, though, about too much asking for changes going on. And can people please stop saying "nanners" it sounds ********.

 

[FlamingForce]

too much asking for changes going on.

And can people please stop saying "nanners" it sounds ********.

Real talk tho I love my nanners, quick and easy

 

[9bit]

*shakes fist*

 

[Ace55]

The only issue I have with diddy is the random rockets on his up b. Who thought that was a good idea?

Yeah that's about the only thing about Diddy that bugs me. With the amount of hits it can take to get Diddy out of recovery range I really dislike explosive barrels hitting me during the end lag of my ledge guarding moves...

 

[Praxis]

You both say long distance bananas are free as if they're not free for Diddy as well. I understand that you can just pick bananas up off the ground. But that doesn't make it any less of an approaching tool. Especially if it's a good Diddy and he's following the banana in the first place.

So first it's "Diddy's naners are too good because you can throw them at a distance for free, super range and safe", and now it's "well, Diddy has to follow the naners, but they're still a good approach [exactly like Falco's lasers] so they're too good".

Also yes the banana can trip people out of shield, and no it's not just limited to Glide Tossing a banana under an opponents feet. Please don't make me make a list where long distance tripping is completely reliable or a list of tripping people out of their shields. If you are Diddy players you should know this stuff in the first place.

You're full of crap. Naners only trip people in shield if it shieldpokes. That's why Diddy players aim for the feet, because of shieldpoking.

The only issue I have with diddy is the random rockets on his up b. Who thought that was a good idea?

Also can we please stop talking about who needs to be changed? This is tier list speculation, not "x character is good because y, and z character is bad because w, here's my wishlist for changes." You'd never see people asking for changes in Brawl or Melee.

I'll admit the random rockets is dumb design, it's silly to sometimes get punished for hitting Diddy. I'd much rather the rockets have a set path or something. This is a Brawl carryover.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'll admit the random rockets is dumb design, it's silly to sometimes get punished for hitting Diddy. I'd much rather the rockets have a set path or something. This is a Brawl carryover.

I'd argue that the rockets should be done away with completely. It doesn't make sense to punish somebody for successfully edgeguarding Diddy. Saying that it's a Brawl carryover isn't enough to justify it.

 

[B.W.]

Diddy's bananas trip people out of their shield if the banana manages to go inside of the opponents shield as well. I've seen bananas land in a spot next to a shielding opponent and cause tripping. It happens, though it's not easy to do consistently.

Also why would we ever be talking about Diddy being on one side of the stage, the oppoenent on the other, and Diddy just throwing a banana without trying for a follow up? The entire point of me saying bananas are safe to throw is because it's safe to throw when you're far OR near someone?

And stop comparing them to Falco's lasers. Aside from the fact that both projectiles are safe, Diddy's bananas are much much more versatile than Falco's lasers, and they force techs or when the tech is missed, a wakeup roll. Falco's lasers do not, and you can in fact shield the next laser if it comes in contact with you when you're on the ground.

 

[Player -0]

Am I the only one that enjoys item play?





...





Ok, I guess so.

 

[9bit]

More people need to learn to work with items since there's a lot more of them to deal with in PM than there was in Melee.

Everyone should at least know how to AGT and snatch items from the air/ground.

Meta Knight can AGT upwards at least twice (if he has all his jumps) when he's got an item. Crazy vertical recovery boost.

 

[Praxis]

Diddy's bananas trip people out of their shield if the banana manages to go inside of the opponents shield as well. I've seen bananas land in a spot next to a shielding opponent and cause tripping. It happens, though it's not easy to do consistently.

The shield thing is not true. Bananas bounce off shields when thrown.

Also why would we ever be talking about Diddy being on one side of the stage, the oppoenent on the other, and Diddy just throwing a banana without trying for a follow up? The entire point of me saying bananas are safe to throw is because it's safe to throw when you're far OR near someone?

And stop comparing them to Falco's lasers. Aside from the fact that both projectiles are safe, Diddy's bananas are much much more versatile than Falco's lasers, and they force techs or when the tech is missed, a wakeup roll. Falco's lasers do not, and you can in fact shield the next laser if it comes in contact with you when you're on the ground.

And now you're backtracking. First you said Diddy's naner throw was safe from range, now it's only safe when Diddy chases them. Guess what? Falco's lasers are safe on shield and on hit when he chases him.

Diddy is extremely comparable to Falco in this regard. Bananas might be a bit better than lasers overall, but they also have the additional downside of being able to be used back against the user, which makes them actually less spammable than Falco's laser.

There's really nothing wrong with them. They're much, much worse than they were in Brawl.

 

[Praxis]

Am I the only one that enjoys item play?





...





Ok, I guess so.

Nope, this is why I played Peach in Brawl and Diddy in PM. I'd actually still play Peach except that I dislike DJC. I love item play and find item placement and punishment logic very natural.

 

[GP&B]

I don't like Diddy's bananas because I consider it rude to throw garbage at people.

This is beautiful. I need this.

 

[Hashtag]

/le sigh...

 

[Hashtag]

You read that wrong.

When Diddy throws his bananas at an opponent that's standing, the banana trips the opponent. It should not.

In previous versions it just caused hitstun, and you could only trip over them if they were stepped on. Which is how it should be. They should not take away tripping from bananas all together, just when thrown.

Also you can powershield all of those projectiles, powershielding shouldn't even be in that list.

Ou know that means you would still be tripped if you are blocking and a diddy player agts a banana at yoir feet right? It's affectively a shield poke since diddy places the banana where the opposong character's feet are.


At least, right now it trips you so you have options to escape throigh teching as long as you know the window to tech ( and the diddy has to make the correct read or cover the correct option). 2.6 bananas were harder to follow up on and i think a different approach would have to be used to allow diddy to still get good follow ups just like every one elses' projectiles. At the same timedoing that could be even more dangerous than the tripping on hit. Same knock back as 2.6 bananas takes away quite a bit of diddy's follow ups. Hurts his nuetral quite a bit and makes people care even less about actually getting hit on stage with a banana since it would create space. ( more often than not diddy couldn't follow up for anything really significant unless he was relatively close already when the banana hit) They'd only be worried about tripping while walking over it.

We wouldnt really get any follow ups off bananas from throwing them. Only, you were in front of us and now you are across the stage. In comparison, it would be pretty weak as an approach otion in comparison to other characters' projectiles. I. e. Falco, mario, pit, ivy, peach, luigi pikachu etc. Still good as a hazard but it woould decrease his opportunities to get in by more than i think it should.

Then again, if it had peach turnip type stun... man... that could get ugly.

 

[Soft Serve]

2.6 bananas when you were grounded had a crazy semi spike angle that straight up killed some characters (roy, falco) if you hit them near he ledge. It also made them fly so far away that your only option to cover their options was throwing the same banana again. The most exp in 2.6 I got was against a 2.6 Ivy and literally It was me dealing with razor leaf(by clanking it with a banana and re-throwing it) until I got a banana in, then having to just throw a banana to get a follow up.

turnip hitstun would be crazy, but I wouldn't mind a set-knockback or something. Then again I think I'm just going to play fox mostly now because balancing 2 characters is stupid hard, so I'm pretty ambivalent.

I'm also really sick of Diddy talk because on one side he is clearly obscene and needs some tweaks, but its also difficult to do because people dont exactly realize where his power lies. He is a heavily re-set based character and his extended combos rely on a lot of dair to force another tech chace situation, and getting reads to end stocks. His recovery is strong to compensate for the fact he has to make the right decisions on stage more than some other characters. However Bananas exist and if the opponent doesnt know the MU specific counterplay to the same degree that the Diddy knows it (or better) just throwing a banana in neutral is the best option in most situations so he doesn't have to rely on resets and reads as much. Basically imo, up-b should get hit (distance, mis-fire barrels, grabbing backwards leniency) but buffed (hitboxes and sweetspot leniency to compensate), Fair toned down to be even with shiek's, DA slightly more CC/SDI able or have harder/stricter followups offstage.

2.6 Bananas are NOT the way to go, I'll dig up a really good Post by Disqo explaining why the banana change was a bad idea in genera if the topic is still alive tomorrow morning.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

In this thread people complain about good characters and people that main said characters defend them.

 

[Soft Serve]

In this thread people complain about good characters and people that main said characters defend them.

Good thing ill never have to defend fox, because melee

 

[FlamingForce]

They'd only be worried about tripping while walking over it.

So never assuming your opponent can wavedash lol

 

[Hashtag]

So never assuming your opponent can wavedash lol

Lol

Wavedashing is a myth.

 

[Ace55]

Wavedashing is so 2006. All the cool kids wavecrawl nowadays.

 

[TreK]

I'd argue that the crouch cancelling should be done away with completely. It doesn't make sense to punish somebody for successfully hitting somebody else. Saying that it's a Melee carryover isn't enough to justify it.

fixd

jkjk I like CC, I'm just salty that my character is so weak against it :V

On the topic of Diddy talk : it took four years for people to understand how to properly play against bananas in Brawl. Not six months. Stop complaining and go in the lab. As a Brawl Diddy main, I can tell you this much : PM Bananas are decent at best.

I agree, though, about too much asking for changes going on

Yup yup yup. This is a tier list thread, it should be about tier lists.
The thing is, I don't see any thread named "Project M feedback and suggestion thread" around here. I've been holding on to my suggestions forever now, but not everybody is as disciplined it seems :V

 

[Phan7om]

Dealing with Brawl bananas to PM bananas is probably similar to Melee tech skill being a bit harder than PM tech skill. Theres a gap between the two games.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wavedashing is so 2006. All the cool kids wavecrawl nowadays.

I'm still on that 1990's slip and slide.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

READ THIS: This is not a official tier list, merely some data I have collected!
However I do believe it accurately reflects PM's 'tier list' at this time, bare in mind this is for the current time and will definitely change month to month depending on game updates and developing meta.

Spoiler: Community Tier List

Community tier lists will forever be a great place for debate which is why I love doing it, especially since this is a Speculation thread! The voting system allows for people from all over to influence the tier list which means different regions with different strong characters/players will be represented. Now this obviously has flaws in it as more people could vote from one place or another, stupid people might vote, and trolls might lurk. But it still shows what people are thinking in general on this thread and is a good thing to keep track of.

Spoiler: Tournament Tier List

When I was first gathering data about PM and trying to create a current 'tier' list I was using tournament results in my tier list and some people kept saying it was a bad idea. I have thought about it and looked at what I was doing and figured that the way I was collecting data and including top results was more along the lines of showing what characters you are most likely to face off against in the top 8 at a random tournament in the past couple months (random day of the week and random place around the world). Now this is not what a typical tier list represents per-say, but it definitely shows helpful things about who people are playing at a higher level, what characters you should practice against more maybe, etc.
The percentage in the tier represents the likelihood of a top 8 battle. (made up)

Spoiler: Combined Tier List

The tier lettering system is often misinterpreted and I have tried to change the titles of tiers and seen others do the same. Do not misinterpret letters like D to mean bad and not viable, PMBR has done a great job at balancing and more importantly designing the entire cast. Its just that in the end, someone has to be on bottom and on top. Plenty of people on here have labeled there own meanings for the different tiers based on viability or need for changes or being slept on. This tier list is as I said, based on the data of community and tournament, which means it resembles something that can be more understood then someones speculation.

So, the described the two other 'tier' lists above are the most influential in the creating of this tier list that I have. I think that all in all this 'combined' tier list if you will represents the tier list of the short term future as it includes the data of the past and the speculation of the future. Predicting who has the most end all potential is hard and in the end somewhat pointless. Even games that dont change (melee) change there tier list every once in a while to respect changes in the meta. I think this tier list is the perfect way to show what PM is like at the current time/short future.

I again used similar methods from the last data tier list that I created, just a few changes to weight assigned. This tier list is comprised of the community tier ranking that was filled out here on smashboards (~45%), around 120 tournament results (~35%), and then ~20% of random factors such as other peoples community tier lists made on here, facebook, and everywhere, CT tier list, character usage, etc.
The tournament results are weighted on number of entrants and date of tournament, so the more recent tournaments and larger tournaments assign a greater value for placing.

Again, I understand people hate the numbering list because then characters in 30s or 40s seem bad, but this is NOT the case, all characters are viable proven by Dakpo, Hbox, Vist, etc.

If this tier list has any confusing placements of any character for you then its either because the community disagrees with you or the character has had unexpected tournament results. There are still tournaments I did not include so it has flaws in it for sure, but take it for what it is worth, I spent a lot of time on it. If you care about tier lists and think I need to change the weighting system I have or something, feel free to give any advice.

 

[mimgrim]

I think it would be good to know what tournaments you use for your tier lists. Do you use locals, regional, nationals, or what?

 

[Turazrok]

MK is too high in all those tier lists, top 5 is a pipe dream for him in 3.0.2. Not saying he's bad by any stretch, but there are far better characters.

 

[9bit]

MK is legitimately top 4

 

[Vashimus]

MK is too high in all those tier lists, top 5 is a pipe dream for him in 3.0.2. Not saying he's bad by any stretch, but there are far better characters.

You're literally the only person I've seen who truly believes that. People have made a case for a few characters being better, but have never seen anyone say top 5 is a long shot for MK.

 

[Turazrok]

You're literally the only person I've seen who truly believes that. People have made a case for a few characters being better, but have never seen anyway think top 5 is a long shot for MK.

To be fair as this is a speculation thread for a tier list in a game that's not even finished you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Let's be real how many people have you actually sat down and talked with about how good MK is?

MK has good combos, yes. MK has an amazing tech game yeah. Recovery, PRI good. I'm not denying his strengths.
However def heavily weak to CC, making his approaches pretty predictable. Additionally he can only clank with projectiles with his dash attack, unless I'm mistaken.

Assuming top 5 right now is some combo of Fox/Falco/Pit/Link/Zelda/Mario/Mewtwo I don't see room for MK in that group.

 

[Vashimus]

Assuming top 5 right now is some combo of Fox/Falco/Pit/Link/Zelda/Mario/Mewtwo I don't see room for MK in that group.

The minute I saw Mario and Zelda > Wolf, Diddy, Lucas, Sheik, MK, or even Marth makes me question where you're coming from.

 

[Turazrok]

I didn't list out everyone give me a break. Don't cherrypick the **** out of my post and make a real argument kthx. I listed some characters I think are better than MK ( I didn't mention anything about wolf,etc. or how I feel about those don't change the topic), AND said assuming the competition consists of only those. Nothing you posted invalidates anything I said.

 

[Vashimus]

There is no need to get defensive.

If predictable approaches is what holds MK back, then help me understand the Mario hype (hint: I never will), because 8% fireballs that lead to nothing and stubby limbs vs. sword, godlike DD (as well as being faster overall), better SHFFL and multiple jumps leads me to believe MK has the far better neutral, as well as getting arguably just as good rewards off his grab as Mario's when he is faced with CC.

 

[Turazrok]

Wasn't defensive, you weren't saying **** ( or rather were).

MK is better than mario? Fireballs do lead into things tho, and 8% is a ****load for a fireball, especially for how safe mario's are. Additionally mario has a decent amount of mixups to his approach, cape is something I feel players heavily underutilize (IT GOES THRU SHIELD WAAAAAAAAAAA)

But mario isn't the subject at hand. So again, let's assume MK>Mario, but is he still better than any of the other characters I, or you listed? My problem with placing MK top 5 is I still haven't seen a strong enough reason to put him above the characters listed.

 

[Vashimus]

I won't deny there can be arguments made for characters such as the ones you listed being better than MK, and I'm always willing to listen. But it's far from me or anyone to say it's, as you put it, a pipe dream for MK to be top, especially considering how successful he is now and how things can easily change in the future. Who knows, you could right, MK might drop off and everyone figures him out. I just certainly don't see it happening any time soon.

Mewtwo I don't feel I can properly assess since I've really only seen matches of him versus fast / semi-fast fallers, which he seems to do very well against.