Tier List Speculation

[FlamingForce]

Oh I believe Leffen when he says NTSC usmash saved him, I just think it says more about his love for running usmash rather then good game balancing.

 

[Hylian]

You can't just cherrypick that one instance of NTSC coming through for him, PAL Fox's recovery is also weaker, he is lighter and his Fire Fox has a smaller hitbox.
15% wasn't the difference, all of the buffs he has in NTSC were the difference.

There's not much to think about when a player playing a stronger character and a favorable MU in PAL requires said character to be even better to just barely beat Armada, when they played PAL in Norway a while later Leffen was once again destroyed in familiar fashion.

I wasn't cherry picking, leffen specifically cited the upsmash as the reason he won. Fox also has a significant laser nerf in PM and removed shine invincibility(which is actually significant when it comes to wake-up options and avoiding grabs) and has to deal with a variety of characters having absurd grab combos on him instead of just a couple like melee. I'm not trying to compare them in a vacuum, just offering some insight as to how the nerf can affect tournament play, and that it isn't insignificant.

It remains to be seen if fox is the best character or not, this is not something I'm arguing. Let's just have open minds instead of jumping to conclusions based off little evidence.

 

[FlamingForce]

It remains to be seen if fox is the best character or not, this is not something I'm arguing. Let's just have open minds instead of jumping to conclusions based off little evidence.

I do agree, there's a decent shot that people are jumping the gun.
That being said I do want to ask, would the PMDT ever consider hitting the spacies if it ever became obvious that it's necessary?
The main piece of evidence that people work with right now is that even with the strength of many character in 3.0, Fox was still very strong and very effective and none of his 3.5 changes seem to address his effectiveness as much as the other top tiers who got hit pretty hard.

There is of course fear that once again we'll see familiar and, by now, honestly stale characters dominating the game.

 

[Jacob29]

3.0 kills Mario on Smashville at 81% (without di)
3.5 kills Mario on Smashville at 89% (without di)

Those are the values he was at before being hit.. dunno which way is more appropriate.

 

[CyberZixx]

Unregistered Ike nerfs:

Because of the new ledge mechanics,

DEAR IKE MAINS,
ALWAYS F***ING BAN LYLAT
SERIOUSLY DO NOT LET ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TAKE YOU THERE EVER

That is all

What was changed about ledges?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Thane of Blue Flames taking my BFF Tyler there today. Going to wear my Friday pants for the impending SDs
My body is ready to be humored

 

[DARKcpu0]

Welp, its been confirmed.

Time to learn fox everybody.

 

[MLGF]

Leaning on Wolf TBH, dude is so damn smooth and aggro now, with juggles on his juggles.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Leaning on Wolf TBH, dude is so damn smooth and aggro now, with juggles on his juggles.

Hm. Maybe. I'm tempted. I have always kinda liked wolf, but I could never wrap my mind around that fast and that aggro.

So I went with a just as fast and aggro falco?

 

[Strong Badam]

The PMDT will have to see if the changes to Fox & Falco are enough. Only time will tell. But I don't think the general consensus is wrong or misguided. It's extremely obvious that not-Fox/Falco top tiers were changed in much more significant ways than they were, I'd be a fool to try to deny it.

15% is the difference between Leffen beating Armada in NTSC at TBH4 and losing. 60% a game is pretty significant. Leffen himself said he doubt he would have won with PAL upsmash. Just something to think about.

Yes, absolutely. The better player would have won if it had been PAL usmash.

 

[FlamingForce]

Yes, absolutely. The better player would have won if it had been PAL usmash.

Honest to god, I just didn't have the balls to say it. :D

 

[Kar]

leffen was playing godlike at the bh4, while Armada wasn't at his best. Armada is still one step ahead imo, just watch europeans tournaments, and it's not only because it's PAL

 

[trash?]

I've mentioned the problem with spacies since forever, at LEAST since like two months after I joined; when anyone gets to fox's level, it's a general consensus that they get REALLY ridiculous. 3.0 had like nine characters on the level of spacies, with only mewtwo being considered "above" that level, and those characters were why people disliked that version so heavily.

there was clear bias for spacies in the PMDT since forever, but now that it's universally understood that "buff up to fox and falco's level" is a horrible idea for design, and they're still allowed to be fox and falco after everyone else got reasonable nerfs? it's the elephant in the room, there's not really any way one can ignore it anymore, because every other change was based on an understanding that being as strong as they are isn't a good thing anymore.

 

[CyberZixx]

Totally agree Canon. It really stands out now. No excuse for it.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I really wish we would have nerfed Fox harder. : (

I would have given him (and maybe Falco) the whole PAL treatment.

Also, Fox used to have a really ridiculous DACUS that covered five-six units (in training stage) if you did it right. I found this. Imagine if that would have gotten in the game, lol. He also used to have a gatling until we fixed it.

One thing that people should understand about nerfs and whatnot, especially when it comes to other characters coming up nerfed in a new version is that the DT has to best use their judgement on how a character will function in the new character environment.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to play against 3.02 Charizard, Ness, hell DK or Zelda (you should have ****ing SEEN that grab range on DK from 3.02) with a lot of 3.5 characters. Even with the new mechanics changes on shield, WD, SDI modifiers and more. There is a lot more that goes into balance changes than even just Character vs Character.

I agree with this for sure. 3.02 Zard would've been stupid in the new environment. I'm okay with every nerf to him except the glide change really since it kills its on-stage use. The nair change and f-tilt nerf were very necessary. As they would've been absolutely free for edgegaurding or setting up edgegaurding.

I just dislike the glide change because it was flashy and yet took a lot of risk to use it on-stage. And now its pretty much not even worth using. Practicing intricate glide tech is almost not worth it anymore due to how difficult it is without being able to angle it.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Eh I still think its dumb that Mewtwo eats his double jump to act out of it and that the reasoning is listed as for wasting his float, when I've very much been jumping out of up b off stage.

It feels pointless. Same for the slower shadow ball start up. Shadow ball was pretty slow on start as it was. Anything else I'm pretty ok with. Down B nerf feels unwarranted but its understandable. Everything else I'm perfectly ok with. But just eating the double jump? Really? Someone said it gives a higher risk reward, but there was kinda already the high risk of having went reached out to hit, and if it missed there was an easy window to be punished. I would have much preferred acting out then going into recover rather than not getting to act at all.

Blahblahblahmoremewtwowhining.

 

[shairn]

Eh I still think its dumb that Mewtwo eats his double jump to act out of it and that the reasoning is listed as for wasting his float, when I've very much been jumping out of up b off stage.

It feels pointless. Same for the slower shadow ball start up. Shadow ball was pretty slow on start as it was. Anything else I'm pretty ok with. Down B nerf feels unwarranted but its understandable. Everything else I'm perfectly ok with. But just eating the double jump? Really? Someone said it gives a higher risk reward, but there was kinda already the high risk of having went reached out to hit, and if it missed there was an easy window to be punished. I would have much preferred acting out then going into recover rather than not getting to act at all.

Blahblahblahmoremewtwowhining.

The only point to eating the DJ is to prevent hover out of teleport as an approach.

 

[DARKcpu0]

The only point to eating the DJ is to prevent hover out of teleport as an approach.

when I've very much been jumping out of up b off stage.

 

[shairn]

Hm, attacking really doesn't seem to eat the DJ at all doesn't it.
EDIT: Using teleport in the air seems to not allow me to DJ after it.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Hm, attacking really doesn't seem to eat the DJ at all doesn't it.
EDIT: Using teleport in the air seems to not allow me to DJ after it.

Really?

Strange. I have every now and again. Non consistently I should add, but I have. Same for attacking out of up b upon using 2nd jump. Maybe there's a small window to do so? TO DEBUG!

 

[shairn]

Really?

Strange. I have every now and again. Non consistently I should add, but I have. Same for attacking out of up b upon using 2nd jump. Maybe there's a small window to do so? TO DEBUG!

From my experience you can teleport from ground to air and DJ/attack freely but if you teleport from air to air you can only attack.

 

[NeoZ]

On the topic of spacies, they've gotten nerfs in both in past versions and in 3.5, it's clear that the PMDT is willing to change them if it becomes necessary, the changes were less significant than what other top tiers got, but I'd rather wait and see how these changes affect them than just start suggesting more nerfs right away.

Random question for @ Strong Badam , there's a player claiming G&W's change log is completely wrong, that he got pure nerfs and that you personally confirmed it to him yesterday, about an hour and half after S@X's double GF.
Is it true?

 

[Strong Badam]

The G&W changelist is 100% correct; it just lists primarily nerfs.

 

[Bleck]

it's clear that the PMDT is willing to change them if it becomes necessary

everybody keeps saying this but nobody ever specifies under what circumstances they believe it would be necessary

 

[NeoZ]

The G&W changelist is 100% correct; it just lists primarily nerfs.

He's saying dtilt got nerfed though.

everybody keeps saying this but nobody ever specifies under what circumstances they believe it would be necessary

To me it would be if the current cast wouldn't fair as well against spacies as the viable characters in Melee do, but writing that out it seems like it would be a really hard condition to meet.
I guess not having 8-2 or 7-3 matchups against low tiers might be a way to evaluate that.

 

[1MachGO]

One build ago people couldn't stop complaining about Diddy, Mewtwo, Mario, etc. now Fox is decisively "broken", again? Please.

To be fair, the usmash nerf isn't super significant (the PAL weight and recovery nerfs would have been better, imo) but its like people can't rationalize how good P:M characters are compared to Melee. The punish games a lot of these characters have on fast fallers is insane.

 

[CyberZixx]

Probably if the meta is so fox dominant he wins most tournaments. I feel at this point it would take that to maybe fix fox.

 

[pkblaze]

The average PM character can mess up fastfallers suuuuper hard. Learn to combo spacies, learn to edgeuard them.

 

[Strong Badam]

^Did you not even read the changelog? Lmfao.

He's saying dtilt got nerfed though.

Dtilt is unchanged.

 

[pkblaze]

@ Strong Badam Why does Falco's upthrow have more A/SDI on lasers(compared to melee) and why was this change never documented?

 

[CyberZixx]

^Did you not even read the changelog? Lmfao.

Are you referring to me? Yes, I read most all of it. Lots of changes around the board, leading to a new vision I appreciate. Except with spacies were excempt from the philsophy. Just makes me salty,Sorry if I am skeptical about you guys changing them in the future just that it has forever since your big post on spacies not be sacred but barely anything happened since and by now it is disappointing because I fear it will hinder 3.5 in the long run.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Strong Badam Why does Falco's upthrow have more A/SDI on lasers(compared to melee) and why was this change never documented?

Changes between Melee/Brawl and Project M are never documented. It is a Project M changelist, it describes changes between versions of Project M and nothing else. The SDI on lasers issue is caused by something unknown.

@ CyberZixx I was referring to pkblaze, not you.

 

[pkblaze]

I read the changelog, yeah. Nothing in there made me think spacies don't still get combo'd super hard. light weight + fast fallspeed = combo food. Spacies that aren't mango/PP will make mistakes and if you can't get like 70-80% or a kill off of a mistake then work on your punish game.

PAL upsmash is a good change IMO cuz NTSC upsmash is bonkers. PAL weight is something I wouldn't be surprised at if PMDT decides to further nerf fox.

 

[Jacob29]

"Caused by something unknown"

That's some spooky stuff right there...

 

[CyberZixx]

Oop, aww. Sorry Strong bad. Defended my stance for nothing.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Yeah because no character that has not performed well has ever merited or received changes due to toxic design elements.

yeah so toxic I mean he's clearly ruined melee... /s

... giving a character with one of the worst recoveries in the game a reliable spike is pretty much the opposite of toxic design... I'm so sick of hearing the word "toxic" applied to everything that people don't like getting own'd with. "toxic" is sheik's ntsc dthrow. "toxic" is 3.02 Ivysaur. "toxic" is not one of the glassiest of cannons having a reliable kill/combo game.

you want to pick on a toxic element of Falco's.... I dunno, shine maybe? The thing is, looking at the melee meta, though fox and falco are clearly the best, nothing they have is toxic. it all encourages interactivity and highly skillful play. the game hasn't devolved into LASER SPAM SHINE SHINE SHINE SPIKE LOL YOU LOSE. their matchups aren't even that ridiculously good for the most part, it's not like they hard counter everyone like some people ITT seem to think.

 

[pkblaze]

yeah so toxic I mean he's clearly ruined melee... /s

... giving a character with one of the worst recoveries in the game a reliable spike is pretty much the opposite of toxic design... I'm so sick of hearing the word "toxic" applied to everything that people don't like getting own'd with. "toxic" is sheik's ntsc dthrow. "toxic" is 3.02 Ivysaur. "toxic" is not one of the glassiest of cannons having a reliable kill/combo game.

Thank you jesus christ. I understand issues with Fox cuz he's less glass and arguably more cannon, and I understand issues that mid tiers in Melee have with Falco (Poor DK and his ****ty shield...) But Falco's got well defined weaknesses. Exploit them. Your character has tools.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

yeah so toxic I mean he's clearly ruined melee... /s

You didn't see my signature huh.

I don't even watch Melee matches without M2K or Armada anymore. Sometimes Shroomed, Bizzarro and Darkrain for flavor.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

You didn't see my signature huh.

I don't even watch Melee matches without M2K or Armada anymore. Sometimes Shroomed, Bizzarro and Darkrain for flavor.

if you fail to see how the supposed "20XX" meta is actually the best possible end-state for a game over a decade old I don't really know what to say. melee would have died in 2010 if spacies lost decisively to something as stupid as Jiggly's bair.

 

[pkblaze]

People in general tend to suck vs projectiles. Sheik needles in melee **** on marth harder than falco lasers. Powershielding is hard but running shield and WD OoS are enough to maintain mobility vs many projectile based characters.