Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Awestin placed better than just about every other Ness main people toss out. If you thought he was garbs, you literally must have thought other Ness players were dookie x 20. He's moved onto Smash 4 mostly, would not be surprised if he's somewhat bad now relative to prior godly ness patch + his stronger focus on PM back then.

Zeej has also been consistently underrated by just about everyone. Pretty sure Awestin gave him the thumbs up over the others that travelled back at LTC2: been a couple of months and a new patch but still nice to see him get his props

 

[DrinkingFood]

shoutouts to DF tbh

you're like the only one that bothers to go through good frame data research and some people still argue with you over it

Well my methods aren't perfect but I try

Example worth noting is the whole ZSS dthrow on peach. Subtle DI changes and non-overlapping frame-perfect regrab windows basically mean ZSS players would need to be gods. So I would go back and correct myself in that it's not reliably feasible on peach (and probs zelda). Their intuition wasn't TOTALLY flawed. But to say that her dthrow would then be bad is silly when any faster falling characters DO get knocked down with DI away, or if they are lighter but also floaty they CAN get reliably regrabbed or otherwise followed up... or bthrow/uthrow mix'd up which I found out is possible

 

[Boiko]

Awestin placed better than just about every other Ness main people toss out. If you thought he was garbs, you literally must have thought other Ness players were dookie x 20. He's moved onto Smash 4 mostly, would not be surprised if he's somewhat bad now relative to prior godly ness patch + his stronger focus on PM.

Zeej has also been consistently underrated by just about everyone. Pretty sure Awestin gave him the thumbs up over the others that travelled back at LTC2: been a couple of months and a new patch but still nice to see him get his props

I always thought Zeej was better at the time. And I did, lol. If you go into the Ness boards you can find me making a post stating that I think everyone is playing Ness poorly, lmao.

Awestin had good reads and was an overall smart player, but he only utilized half of Ness' toolkit and in my mind that forever held him back.

 

[Deleted member]

btw, if you guys want some harder evidence for your arguments, you should learn how to use project smash attacks. You can basically look at or edit anything

I relearned the program and everything makes x10 more sense.

 

[DMG]

I always thought Zeej was better at the time. And I did, lol. If you go into the Ness boards you can find me making a post stating that I think everyone is playing Ness poorly, lmao.

Awestin had good reads and was an overall smart player, but he only utilized half of Ness' toolkit and in my mind that forever held him back.

He used the GOOD half of Ness toolkit. Everyone else wasted so much time with DJC Magnet blah blah blah onstage, they forgot to hit Giant Enemy Crab at the weakpoint for massive damage. PK fire into grab, do some combo, toss them offstage and use rising Dair. 80% of cast is now ded. I don't know how they fudged it back in that patch lol. I'll give you that if you were consistent with the hate on Ness mains in general though.

I don't think Zeej was better then, but I'd be surprised now if there are 4 or 5 legit mains that are better atm. Rankings schmankings, dude is good

 

[Deleted member]

yeah im with dmg id be really floored to see any ness better than zeej let alone multiples

 

[TreK]

btw, if you guys want some harder evidence for your arguments, you should learn how to use project smash attacks. You can basically look at or edit anything

I relearned the program and everything makes x10 more sense.

Isn't it unreliable because frame speed modifiers aren't displayed in it ?
Idk it's been like 4 years since I last touched that program

 

[Boiko]

He used the GOOD half of Ness toolkit. Everyone else wasted so much time with DJC Magnet blah blah blah onstage, they forgot to hit Giant Enemy Crab at the weakpoint for massive damage. I'll give you that if you were consistent with the hate on Ness mains in general though.

I don't think Zeej was better then, but I'd be surprised now if there are 4 or 5 legit mains that are better atm. Rankings schmankings, dude is good

Magnet is so situational and everyone tried to force it. If you weren't spamming PKF in 3.02 were you even playing Ness?

@Umbreon top 5 Ness players in no particular order are StereoKiDD, Zeej, Tetraflora, Aki, and myself. I find we're all better at different things. But some of those things are more important than others, and that's why I feel like Stereo is above the rest with me and Zeej just a stone's throw behind.

 

[Jolteon]

btw, if you guys want some harder evidence for your arguments, you should learn how to use project smash attacks. You can basically look at or edit anything

I relearned the program and everything makes x10 more sense.

Wise words.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't it unreliable because frame speed modifiers aren't displayed in it ?
Idk it's been like 4 years since I last touched that program

You can see frame speed modifiers. If you're really uncertain, you can just debug mode it ingame

but the whole point of PSA is you can see stuff like hitbox sizes, what those hitboxes do, when they refresh/if they refresh, tons of things. Tons.

Heres an example of looking at frame speed modifiers, this is metaknights 3.5 dair

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Dthrow -> upsmash kills ness at 70% and is (i think) a true combo. I tried DI-ing both away and towards Ganon, and my DI just gets read and I get upsmashed to death. VIDEO GAMES.

Obligatory "ayyy lmao"

Anyhoo, yeah. I'm a little late to the discussion, but Ganon's d-throw is ridonk. Aside from missing out on silly f-smash/up-smash followups at certain percents/on certain characters, I pretty much have every option at my disposal off of a d-throw. This by itself wouldn't be too bad (I mean, Fox gets up-throw->uair, right?) if 0-death chaingrabs weren't so easy on so many characters. Some characters can't even get up onto Battlefield-sized platforms before dying to an f-smash, such as Roy. It's quite silly, really.

Even THAT wouldn't be so bad if nair didn't solve almost all of Ganon's problems in neutral (this is an exaggeration obviously, but the move IS crazy) and allow me to land more grabs more easily. Let's just think for a moment what nair has going for it:

• Shortened, five frame jumpsquat
• Move itself comes out in just five frames
• Virtually no landing lag if auto-cancelled correctly
• +3 on shield if autocancelled correctly
• Hits through every non-transcendent/non-Charge Shot projectile (nair just about entirely invalidates Samus's missiles at mid-range if spaced properly)
  
• Combos easily into other aerials on most of the cast while forcing a bad tech situation on the faster fallers at low-mid percents

Ganon certainly has a few bad matchups (he's still Ganon, after all), but none really feel absolutely monstrously terrible anymore. Everything is doable, at the very least.

Basically, yeah, I agree with Kage. Ganon doesn't have to many bad matchups, and none of the ones that are left are too extremely difficult to the point where I would bemoan choosing the life of Dorf.

 

[Player -0]

Most of the 3.02 Nesses (how to plural) were pretty bad. I haven't watched a bunch in 3.5 but I think that a lot are still lacking.

Also I think that Ness' shield pressure tools are quite amazing. You can crossup with magnet, DJC aerial, etc. into D-Tilt (which is pretty safe afaik, it generally catches people out of jumpsquat AND grab if you messed up the crossup), more DJC aerials, magnet, or grab as a mixup. Those options then lead into more things such as more D-Tilt (this move hits so low it starts shield poking pretty early without angles, breakaway shield poke PK Fire, or baiting an OoS option from the enemy. A lot of these options lead into combos at low percents or kills at high, D-Tilt leads into anything/grab, grab has D-Throw and B-Throw, and most of Ness' aerials beat people hard.

Edit - @Magus420 If Sheik goes for a D-Smash do you just react?

Also I'm pretty sure it's ASDI'ing down if you're not crouching.

 

[Divinokage]

Well you can do that in Melee as well from dthrow to get easy kills/get a few juggle % and Ganon's grab range still sucks very badly. But ya the Nair is sick though.

 

[Boiko]

Most of the 3.02 Nesses (how to plural) were pretty bad. I haven't watched a bunch in 3.5 but I think that a lot are still lacking.

Also I think that Ness' shield pressure tools are quite amazing. You can crossup with magnet, DJC aerial, etc. into D-Tilt (which is pretty safe afaik, it generally catches people out of jumpsquat AND grab if you messed up the crossup), more DJC aerials, magnet, or grab as a mixup. Those options then lead into more things such as more D-Tilt (this move hits so low it starts shield poking pretty early without angles, breakaway shield poke PK Fire, or baiting an OoS option from the enemy. A lot of these options lead into combos at low percents or kills at high, D-Tilt leads into anything/grab, grab has D-Throw and B-Throw, and most of Ness' aerials beat people hard.

Edit - @Magus420 If Sheik goes for a D-Smash do you just react?

Also I'm pretty sure it's ASDI'ing down if you're not crouching.

That shield pressure is pretty easy to just shield DI out of, especially dtilt pressure. It's nice as a mix up, but it's generally unsafe/has no reward. Immediate dair>jab reset is IMO the best thing to get out of low percents down tilts since it's so fast almost no one techs it. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

 

[Chevy]

I'd like to actually talk about Samus, as probably the best Samus next to ESAM(not a testament to my skill as much as lack of character representation). I think pretty much every tier list has Samus placed too high because "she was good in Melee and got buffs". Usually they don't take into account how awful some of the new matchups are, and the actual relevance of her slew of minor upgrades against most of the cast.

She is not strictly better in Melee, her grab is(mostly) better, but she lost the range of her standing grab from Melee, and her grab is now shorter than Link/Tink, and slower than every other grab in the game. It can grab out of the air, and her dash grab lingers like crazy, making it very difficult to spot-dodge, but it's still booty. Her tether is also worse in almost every way now, and the prevalence of characters that can kill easily off the top and characters with kill throws substantially hinder her survivability. Aerial Interrupt onto ledge is also much worse in PM. Up-air can't be auto-cancelled from ledge until 4 frames later than Melee, and the change to invincibility mechanics from Melee->Brawl also hinder it's effectiveness.


is her best relevant matchup in Melee, but that hardly makes it even. I'd say it's only a little better now in PM. The grab buff is relevant. Z-air is relevant until they learn how to shield, since Fox has the speed to punish the landing lag. Morph ball helps a little, and the up-smash nerf is a gift from god. On the flip side, there is no reason Fox doesn't just shine spike you every time you get close to ledge without a double jump. Fox can shine spike before you're in range of screw attack, and if forced to tether, Samus should be dead every time. I'd still call it around even.

There are like 4 Ness players in my region and I've never felt like this matchup is particularly good for Samus, despite the constant 70-30 inevitably placed on every matchup chart. Yeah she can camp and edgeguard, but she still has no punish game to combat his ridiculous punishes on her, and he has a killing throw.

Characters I think she loses to:



There are other matchups I'm not sure about, but I don't think Samus has any matchups besides DK that she actually dominates in. She has a lot of buffs from Melee, but they're all pretty minor. Almost all of her inborn weaknesses are still intact. She has virtually no punish game on 70% of the cast, can't threaten the space in front of her out of shield because of her donk grab, and has no way to get down from juggles. She can't actually threaten shields like most of the cast can, aside from goofy unsafe bomb and jab mix-ups. Most of the cast has the luxury of being able to threaten a grab without worrying about eating a Falcon punch when they miss. She is more susceptible to killing throws than anyone in the cast(aside from Puff, but when is that relevant), potentially negating her weight in a lot of situations.

All that said, I pretty much have no complaints about the character other than the awful 3.5 tether mechanics. It'd like her standing grab range back from Melee, but that's not too important. I think Samus is actually very well done, just not high tier.

 

[eideeiit]

Ness's d-tilt cancelled into another d-tilt is +/–0 on shield and the next one comes out on frame 3. It'll catch any OoS stuff I can think of (except spotdodges but yeah). So it's completely safe on shield framewise.

Edit: oh yeah. G&W and Bowser with those frame 1 upBs. (<--heh) Samus too?

 

[Lizalfos]

I can't believe that you would complain about Shiek. She has zero initiative in the neutral, her strengths just counteract that to make it work. That doesn't mean she is op, it means you are losing the neutral when you shouldn't. This is apparent against spacies because they get all the initiative they want, but it exists with other characters to varying degrees.

ah she can camp and edgeguard, but she still has no punish game to combat his ridiculous punishes on her, and he has a killing throw.

Characters I think she loses to:



There are other matchups I'm not sure about, but I don't think Samus has any matchups besides DK that she actually dominates in. She has a lot of buffs from Melee, but they're all pretty minor. Almost all of her inborn weaknesses are still intact. She has virtually no punish game on 70% of the cast, can't threaten the space in front of her out of shield because of her donk grab, and has no way to get down from juggles. She can't actually threaten shields like most of the cast can, aside from goofy unsafe bomb and jab mix-ups. Most of the cast has the luxury of being able to threaten a grab without worrying about eating a Falcon punch when they miss. She is more susceptible to killing throws than anyone in the cast(aside from Puff, but when is that relevant), potentially negating her weight in a lot of situations.

All that said, I pretty much have no complaints about the character other than the awful 3.5 tether mechanics. It'd like her standing grab range back from Melee, but that's not too important. I think Samus is actually very well done, just not high tier.

Samus beats ZSS because she can cc ZSS's attacks. I really doubt ZSS has good follow ups either, certainly not out of grab. How is ZSS going to kill anyway?

What does a FSM do in a practical sense?

 

[Player -0]

That shield pressure is pretty easy to just shield DI out of, especially dtilt pressure. It's nice as a mix up, but it's generally unsafe/has no reward. Immediate dair>jab reset is IMO the best thing to get out of low percents down tilts since it's so fast almost no one techs it. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

DJC Aerial to close space -> D-Tilt or a PK Fire if you read an OoS option. Not a lot of people are ready to tilt shield down that quickly from an aerial from Ness.

I'll fight you on the no reward/unsafe for days. Ness gets a ton of damage off of grab/most of his DJC'ed aerials and D-Tilt leads into either/both of these. D-Tilt leads into a generally favorable position because they're forced to roll or attempt to Shield DI out, D-Tilt will eat most (if not all except a few like G&W's?) OoS options.

Also random question, do you Shield DI with C-Stick or the control/analog/whatev movement stick?

Edit - @ Chevy Started writing but realized a bullet format would be better:
- I might be wrong but Ness doesn't get a ton of touch of death vs. Samus as he does vs. other characters, he has to get a read on the Nair (which beats out most of his options, especially during combos) and if he gets a read he has to be really fast or he'll be hit by a D-Smash/Jab/WD back safe tilt which generally doesn't work out for him.
- His shield pressure doesn't really work against Samus afaik (Up-B OoS has invincibility right?)
- His approaches get stuffed by Zair and missiles (all of his aerial burst movement is generally invalidated by Zair and ground approaches are hard because of missiles and stuff and that's only until Ness gets somewhat close. Once he's close he still has to contend with Samus' interesting pokes and stuff.
- His recovery is completely invalidated. Missiles destroy him if he's attempting to PKT, charge shot punishes are extremely brutal both from land lag and from getting hit in the air (even while trying to PKT). If he attempts to go low edgehog -> ledgehop Nair -> more missiles if he attempts to go high or repeat/spike if he tries to go low again.
- Probably more stuff.

 

[Neighbor]

Hey Chevy why do you think Samus loses to Squirtle and DeDeDe ? Ive played as Ganon and ROB vs Samus and it was fun it felt pretty even. But i would like to know why you think squirtle and d3 win that fight

 

[PlateProp]

btw, if you guys want some harder evidence for your arguments, you should learn how to use project smash attacks. You can basically look at or edit anything

I relearned the program and everything makes x10 more sense.

If I could find a working download of it along with a guide that actually shows you how to do **** I would

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well you can do that in Melee as well from dthrow to get easy kills/get a few juggle % and Ganon's grab range still sucks very badly. But ya the Nair is sick though.

True, though followups are certainly a lot easier and varied. That's not even to mention the fact that, in PM, you're much more likely to encounter a character that is both easily killed by landing one grab AND easier to actually out-neutral and land the grab in the first place when compared to the Melee top tiers, leading to the degenerate d-throw stuff being much prevalent.

 

[Lizalfos]

If I could find a working download of it along with a guide that actually shows you how to do **** I would

I thought you were a trooper. Struggling through playing as squirtle all the time and such.

 

[Deleted member]

If I could find a working download of it along with a guide that actually shows you how to do **** I would

| Download | Guide |

No johns

 

[Boiko]

Ness should have extremely short chains on Samus. Zero Suit definitely wins the MU with Samus. Brief notes while on the train. Will reply more in about an hour.

 

[PlateProp]

I thought you were a trooper. Struggling through playing as squirtle all the time and such.

I tried to get psa once because I wanted to see what it would be like if Squirtle's fsmash was faster but had no armor

| Download | Guide |

No johns

Pls.

 

[Chevy]

Edit - @ Chevy Started writing but realized a bullet format would be better:
- I might be wrong but Ness doesn't get a ton of touch of death vs. Samus as he does vs. other characters, he has to get a read on the Nair (which beats out most of his options, especially during combos) and if he gets a read he has to be really fast or he'll be hit by a D-Smash/Jab/WD back safe tilt which generally doesn't work out for him.
- His shield pressure doesn't really work against Samus afaik (Up-B OoS has invincibility right?)
- His approaches get stuffed by Zair and missiles (all of his aerial burst movement is generally invalidated by Zair and ground approaches are hard because of missiles and stuff and that's only until Ness gets somewhat close. Once he's close he still has to contend with Samus' interesting pokes and stuff.
- His recovery is completely invalidated. Missiles destroy him if he's attempting to PKT, charge shot punishes are extremely brutal both from land lag and from getting hit in the air (even while trying to PKT). If he attempts to go low edgehog -> ledgehop Nair -> more missiles if he attempts to go high or repeat/spike if he tries to go low again.
- Probably more stuff.

I still think she wins, but it's actually pretty difficult for her to deal with Ness when he's in the PK fire range above her head, and she has no way to challenge f-air. Ness should definitely die if he ever has to PKthunder2, but his double jump goes a long way to getting him back much of the time. Ness should be able to just d-tilt her for shield pressure, and probably dodge up-b.

Hey Chevy why do you think Samus loses to Squirtle and DeDeDe ? Ive played as Ganon and ROB vs Samus and it was fun it felt pretty even. But i would like to know why you think squirtle and d3 win that fight

I think DDD is actually very close to even, but it can be hard for Samus to punish his range. He still gets pretty good rewards off of grabs for her, and once you're too far off stage Samus actually has to just hug the blastzone until he runs out of jumps and then try to get back in time.

Squirtle is very fast, and he can armor missiles at low percents. He can kill Samus at about 80% off of an up-smash or up-b, and he has a killing throw. He is also fairly difficult to edgeguard, and he has the tools to edgeguard Samus pretty well.

 

[PlateProp]

I still think she wins, but it's actually pretty difficult for her to deal with Ness when he's in the PK fire range above her head, and she has no way to challenge f-air. Ness should definitely die if he ever has to PKthunder2, but his double jump goes a long way to getting him back much of the time. Ness should be able to just d-tilt her for shield pressure, and probably dodge up-b.



I think DDD is actually very close to even, but it can be hard for Samus to punish his range. He still gets pretty good rewards off of grabs for her, and once you're too far off stage Samus actually has to just hug the blastzone until he runs out of jumps and then try to get back in time.

Squirtle is very fast, and he can armor missiles at low percents. He can kill Samus at about 80% off of an up-smash or up-b, and he has a killing throw. He is also fairly difficult to edgeguard, and he has the tools to edgeguard Samus pretty well.

Dthrow doesn't kill unless you have bad di (if you di into it like a dumbass lol) or you're at super high percent bro

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, Ness definitely has some small stuff he can do like Mag -> DJC Fair -> Rising FH Nair (sourspot) -> PK Fire or whatever you can do. That's kind of a bad example because Samus can DI out of the Mag and some of the stuff and Nair. The small combos are definitely there but aren't customary to what Ness is known for (or should be known for, people don't know).

I still think she wins, but it's actually pretty difficult for her to deal with Ness when he's in the PK fire range above her head, and she has no way to challenge f-air. Ness should definitely die if he ever has to PKthunder2, but his double jump goes a long way to getting him back much of the time. Ness should be able to just d-tilt her for shield pressure, and probably dodge up-b.

Squirtle is very fast, and he can armor missiles at low percents. He can kill Samus at about 80% off of an up-smash or up-b, and he has a killing throw. He is also fairly difficult to edgeguard, and he has the tools to edgeguard Samus pretty well.

For Ness:
- Charge shot beats Fair and CC beats Fair, personally I think Ness' Fair isn't that great (I think I've been hit out of hit by Samus' hard missile before, Nair is better for beating them anyway though). Do you have an example where you're having trouble with Ness' Fair? I don't see it at all.
- Samus can shield/WD. A lot of Ness mains (AWJGEIGJEWGI I DON'T REMEMBER THE WORD WHERE YOU SHOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO BEFORE YOU DO IT, someone pls help.) show that they're going to PKF based on positioning. Unless there's a platform Ness can land on then I think Samus can just punish with chargeshot or Zair (assuming they wavebounce the PKF). A lot of stages don't allow Ness to land on a platform after or Ness shouldn't be in a position where he can.
- Samus can Shield DI in and Ness' D-Tilt is really small, Up-B should pick up or throw away Ness with no problem. Nesses will be DJC'ing/SHFFLing in close to use D-Tilt (because it's so small) and that's an easy Up-B OoS.


Also used Thesaurus.com and used foreshadow to find it, the word is telegraph.

For Squirtle: Squirtle has enough movement to get by missiles, he should be using Bair to break missiles (also Super RAR sets up for Bair anyway). Samus probably has a better time edgeguarding Squirtle than most characters with a charge shot if you read a withdraw offstage, also ledgedrop Nair gives Squirtle a bit of a problem (still pretty do-able for Squirtle though).

Didn't we talk about you vs. @~Dad~ a while back and we said that it was even-ish?

Edit - @ PlateProp Squirtle has the F-Throw/D-Throw mixup, which, albeit isn't super fast can trip some people up. Samus is heavy though so she can eat the Fair from F-Throw without too much of a problem. I think on out DI Squirtle can sometimes get a hydroplane Up-Smash though?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

If I could find a working download of it along with a guide that actually shows you how to do **** I would

Use OpenSA2, it's the better sucessssor.

 

[Narpas_sword]

- Samus can shield/WD. A lot of Ness mains (AWJGEIGJEWGI I DON'T REMEMBER THE WORD WHERE YOU SHOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO BEFORE YOU DO IT, someone pls help.)

Telegraph

edit// replied before finishing your post.

 

[Boiko]

Ness fair doesn't stop projectiles and can be CC'd. Same with his dash attack and Samus can very easily SDI fair. More to come but @ Player -0 seems to have it pretty on point.

 

[Chevy]

Dthrow doesn't kill unless you have bad di (if you di into it like a ******* lol) or you're at super high percent bro

With optimal DI, Samus dies from the middle of Battlefield at 130% from d-throw, that's not super high for Samus.

Yeah, Ness definitely has some small stuff he can do like Mag -> DJC Fair -> Rising FH Nair (sourspot) -> PK Fire or whatever you can do. That's kind of a bad example because Samus can DI out of the Mag and some of the stuff and Nair. The small combos are definitely there but aren't customary to what Ness is known for (or should be known for, people don't know).


For Ness:
- Charge shot beats Fair and CC beats Fair, personally I think Ness' Fair isn't that great (I think I've been hit out of hit by Samus' hard missile before, Nair is better for beating them anyway though). Do you have an example where you're having trouble with Ness' Fair? I don't see it at all.
- Samus can shield/WD. A lot of Ness mains (AWJGEIGJEWGI I DON'T REMEMBER THE WORD WHERE YOU SHOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO BEFORE YOU DO IT, someone pls help.) show that they're going to PKF based on positioning. Unless there's a platform Ness can land on then I think Samus can just punish with chargeshot or Zair (assuming they wavebounce the PKF). A lot of stages don't allow Ness to land on a platform after or Ness shouldn't be in a position where he can.
- Samus can Shield DI in and Ness' D-Tilt is really small, Up-B should pick up or throw away Ness with no problem. Nesses will be DJC'ing/SHFFLing in close to use D-Tilt (because it's so small) and that's an easy Up-B OoS.


Also used Thesaurus.com and used foreshadow to find it, the word is telegraph.

For Squirtle: Squirtle has enough movement to get by missiles, he should be using Bair to break missiles (also Super RAR sets up for Bair anyway). Samus probably has a better time edgeguarding Squirtle than most characters with a charge shot if you read a withdraw offstage, also ledgedrop Nair gives Squirtle a bit of a problem (still pretty do-able for Squirtle though).

Didn't we talk about you vs. @~Dad~ a while back and we said that it was even-ish?

Edit - @ PlateProp Squirtle has the F-Throw/D-Throw mixup, which, albeit isn't super fast can trip some people up. Samus is heavy though so she can eat the Fair from F-Throw without too much of a problem. I think on out DI Squirtle can sometimes get a hydroplane Up-Smash though?

I'm totally willing to believe that I just suck at fighting Ness. But charge shot to answer things in neutral generally isn't great advice, given that it takes time to charge. Especially when Ness can heal like 50% if he reads it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Anyone who doesn't think Awestin was the best Ness when he played is actually delusional, no offense intended. The results speak for themselves.

Wasn't expecting to see my name in this thread so many times, but I'm not complaining.

 

[Akhenderson]

Obligatory "ayyy lmao"

ayy lmao~

On the topic of Sheik:
Her OOS nair is stupid. Quick, hits both sides so it doesn't matter if you overshoot your jump to land behind her to make your pressure safer.

Needles are stupid. 3% for each needle and ability to store it which can lead up to 18% damage on a single opponent. Also has probably some of the strangest priority in the game stuffing out recoveries that SHOULD be outpriortizing 3% damage projectiles. (Ness PKT2 for example, can eat through Samus charge shot on the near beginnings of PKT2, but at the same time, cannot go through needles, even though they're not transcendent in property.)

Her throws are ridiculous. Certain characters cannot escape the throw combos and also has free tech chases. Also has a very difficult to react DI mix up throws, which, if DI'd wrong, combos into a kill and if DI'd right, goes into a tech chase or edgeguard situation.

This character needs only a handful of moves to be good. You literally use only half her kit, and she's as effective as the high-top tiers.

 

[941]

I want to take a minute to talk about Ice Climbers' bad MUs and why I don't think a bugfix will help them out as much as some people think. There is no particular order to this list, but it generally follows the order the characters appear on Strong Bad's Tier list. These MUs also account for ICs being fixed.

Shine gives him a relatively safe and effective way of separating the ICS, and his speed makes it difficult to punish him for focusing on Nana.
Hard for ICs to deal with Falco's lasers and shield pressure. Shine is also effective at killing Nana due to her not DIing.
Probably the most favorable spacie for ICs due to having some CC options, but still hard due to Wolf's shine and shield pressure.
Aura gets a double charge from ICs and his movement makes it difficult for ICs to win neutral.
Not a terrible MU, but Roy has the tools to deal with most of ICs approach options, as well as ICs having to risk taking strong hits from Roy whenever they try to grab. Also, D-tilt is dumb.
Has the better neutral and punish in this MU. Falcon's mobility and aerials make it difficult for ICs to start anything against him, yet he can potentially take a stock after 1-2 combos.
Ike has a strong punish game on ICs as well as having good movement options. ICs can juggle Ike pretty well, but don't have much more going for them in this MU.
One of the worst MUs for ICs and possibly one of the most one-sided MUs in the game. His speed and his projectile game make it really difficult for ICs to do anything besides eat bombs.
Samus is hard for ICs due to having a strong projectile game, as well as being able to deal with most of their approach options with D-smash and tilts. ICs are good at juggling Samus but it takes a lot of effort to get her above them.
Like TL, this is a very polarizing MU that ICs don't win. Not much to say about it other than to watch Armada or M2K against any ICs player.
Good at camping ICs as well as separating them. Snake is also pretty good at killing Nana upon separation. If ICs can stay together and use ice blocks to sweep mines, they can do OK vs Snake, but it's much easier said than done.
Has large, strong, hitboxes similar to Ike that make it easy for him to KO Nana even if the Popo can avoid the attacks. ICs have a CG on Ganon, but otherwise he needs to be outplayed pretty hard for ICs to win this.
A good Ivysaur can use spacing moves like B-air to keep ICs out and separate them. ICs have some decent punish options on Ivysaur, but that's overshadowed by the difficulty of ICs winning neutral.
Zelda has multiple tools to separate the ICs and deny their approach options. Losing Nana leaves Sopo with very few options against Zelda.
I haven't played/seen enough of these MUs to say for certain, but theoretically, they should both be difficult for ICs due to being difficult to combo as well as having the tools to separate the ICs.

I'm completely open to discussing these MUs and I would love to be proven wrong by someone convincing me that any of these MUs are actually better if ICs can play them in a way I didn't think about.

Edit: Added Zelda. Credits to @ N Neighbor

 

[Divinokage]

True, though followups are certainly a lot easier and varied. That's not even to mention the fact that, in PM, you're much more likely to encounter a character that is both easily killed by landing one grab AND easier to actually out-neutral and land the grab in the first place when compared to the Melee top tiers, leading to the degenerate d-throw stuff being much prevalent.

Ill guarantee you vs top players its not easy to have a good neutral, Ganon still suffers from a lot of positions.

 

[Player -0]

With optimal DI, Samus dies from the middle of Battlefield at 130% from d-throw, that's not super high for Samus.


I'm totally willing to believe that I just suck at fighting Ness. But charge shot to answer things in neutral generally isn't great advice, given that it takes time to charge. Especially when Ness can heal like 50% if he reads it.

I'm not sure if that kills at that % but I'm not in the position to check it right now.

I was giving charge shot as an option that can be used as a punish against a recovering Ness (If he goes high or is currently recovering, not yet in PKT2), Zair/Rising Nair can also be used in place of most of the examples I've given in neutral (I think Nair trades with Ness' Fair. The charge shot would mainly be used as a punish if he did an unsafe PK Fire and was forced to wait out the aerial endlag (which is actually pretty long), Fair, and probably something I'm missing (or I just wanted 3 points).

For the charge shot in neutral Ness would need a pretty hard read (Mag takes like, 8 frames to come out? I'm not sure if the absorb frames start on the frame it comes out, will need to check frame data thread). Then again Mag is pretty safe because of the safe options you can use to retreat with. If Ness is in the middle of DD'ing or something as long as he doesn't start the Mag as soon as you're firing it and is within a Falcon SHFFL Knee range then typically Ness will be using shield/AD to escape it.

If Ness is trying to camp platform while PK Fire spamming you could always try to SWD and charge shot -> missile camp LOL.

ayy lmao~

On the topic of Sheik:
Her OOS nair is stupid. Quick, hits both sides so it doesn't matter if you overshoot your jump to land behind her to make your pressure safer.

Needles are stupid. 3% for each needle and ability to store it which can lead up to 18% damage on a single opponent. Also has probably some of the strangest priority in the game stuffing out recoveries that SHOULD be outpriortizing 3% damage projectiles. (Ness PKT2 for example, can eat through Samus charge shot on the near beginnings of PKT2, but at the same time, cannot go through needles, even though they're not transcendent in property.)

Her throws are ridiculous. Certain characters cannot escape the throw combos and also has free tech chases. Also has a very difficult to react DI mix up throws, which, if DI'd wrong, combos into a kill and if DI'd right, goes into a tech chase or edgeguard situation.

This character needs only a handful of moves to be good. You literally use only half her kit, and she's as effective as the high-top tiers.

PKT2 has invincibility frames for like, 8 frames. Samus' charge shot only hits once but Sheik's needles don't all hit on the same frame (definitely not all within 8 frames). I might be missing something and you might be referring to a single needle though. Also hitlag from needles (the rest of the needles aren't affected) I THINK eats up some of the invincibility frames but I'm probably wrong on that.

 

[Strong Badam]

Ill guarantee you vs top players its not easy to have a good neutral, Ganon still suffers from a lot of positions.

That's the main reason I didn't have Ganon super high on my list. I think he's got a lot of unexplored potential with his new nB, but until that gets tapped he's a bit of a question mark for me. Of the players who play PM exclusively and at a high level I probably put him higher than most, actually. Seems there's still some lingering low opinions of our favorite King of Evil from previous versions.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ganon certainly has a few bad matchups (he's still Ganon, after all), but none really feel absolutely monstrously terrible anymore. Everything is doable, at the very least.

Basically, yeah, I agree with Kage. Ganon doesn't have to many bad matchups, and none of the ones that are left are too extremely difficult to the point where I would bemoan choosing the life of Dorf.

I have to third this. From what I've seen, nobody's even close to fully developed Ganon yet, but when they do, it'll be terrifying. I doubt he has any MUs worse than 60:40, and very few are that bad. On the other hand, he all but invalidates the other fatties, his reach makes him extremely tough for stubby arms characters like Squirtle and Pikachu; and he has some of the best edgeguarding in the game via RAR and the Tipman.

 

[Neighbor]

ICs also have a hard time against a good zelda. @ 941