Tier List Speculation

[Chevy]

AJ kills at about 12ish percent before upsmash would. It's not that huge of a difference and it's fair that it's a bit stronger in exchange for being so small a hitbox

I dont really have an opinion on aqua jet just pointing out that he has no problems killing floaties,

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Got interrupted by dinner, but I was testing kill percents for D throw with Puff Peach and Samus on Warioware Battlefield and Dreamland. All from the middle of the stage, they were happening at 100 for Warioware, 130 ish for Battlefield, and 140 ish for Dreamland. Having slight discrepencys with the correct DI since no DI, away, and up and away all not going directly into the corner. Also, when it goes in the corner, once it killed earlier then when it didn't (something to do with weird camera locations). Will post exact percents soon.

 

[Chevy]

Got interrupted by dinner, but I was testing kill percents for D throw with Puff Peach and Samus on Warioware Battlefield and Dreamland. All from the middle of the stage, they were happening at 100 for Warioware, 130 ish for Battlefield, and 140 ish for Dreamland. Having slight discrepencys with the correct DI since no DI, away, and up and away all not going directly into the corner. Also, when it goes in the corner, once it killed earlier then when it didn't (something to do with weird camera locations). Will post exact percents soon.

I tested this from Battlefield center on Samus a while back, and it killed her at around 135% with perfect DI.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I tested this from Battlefield center on Samus a while back, and it killed her at around 135% with perfect DI.

That's what I got. Here are the rest:

Jigglypuff
WarioWare- DI away, 102ish, experimenting with different DI (I did Peach first...), may be off by 5 or so
Battlefield- No DI seems best, 131
Dreamland- No DI, 151

Peach
WarioWare- No DI, 108, ~8 sooner if you don't jump to stop momentum
Battlefield- No DI, 138, jumping thing
Dreamland- No DI, 151, jumping thing

Samus
WarioWare- No DI, 108, DI away appears to be a better angle, but you die sooner, maybe the camera is proportioned weird? Very precise jump input to survive some earlier percents while mashing jump (the first time I died at 106, but tried 2 more times and jumping worked, so its not that precise actually...).
Battlefield- No DI or up and away, 135
Dreamland- No DI, 153

Back to the original point of the post, Aqua jet helps fill in the gaps in Squirtle's kill game on the floatier portion of the cast. While not always having easy set ups for it barring tech chase (which Squirtle is amazing at), it is much less commitment then an Up smash (without the lead in) for obvious reasons, as well as Up b (tipper up b here, regular can be SDI'd). Withdraw whisks you away when you miss and will probably put you on the ledge before they can do anything (Squirt has great ledge options too). That all being said, even if it has less commitment then the other 2 kill options of the top, it still requires you to be on top of them, making lead ins harder (also allows combo breaker nairs to work, since we are talking about Luigi/Peach types here). Up smash and up b are fairly safe from those nairs. I would also like to acknowledge his other options of killing (the traditional way, off the side). While he may have a better edge game then fox (debatable), his vertical kills are a lot less free. Besides, he doesn't have Fox's neutral or his punish game. His recovery has fairly universal counterplay too since he doesn't have as many mix ups.

tl;dr: D throw isn't some insane kill throw that needs a nerf, it kills when most solid kill throws do (not super broken ones). Squirt likes kills off the top because his off the side ones are lacking on the floatier characters. He can have strengths, right?

 

[Player -0]

I'd like to point out that withdraw, even if it leads you out of a direct punish, puts you in a staggered position that can lead to an easy punish. This worsens if you're put offstage.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yep, its really hilarious "carrying" people from the the edge of the stage to the edge of the screen waiting for their option (jump aerial, some stall, side b) and beating it. Like Samus, what option is she supposed to chose? Jump Nair? Bomb jump? Nothing? They all can be beaten rather easy (and its a quick way to end a stock).

 

[| Kailex |]

I heard that this place is dead, isnt fox top tier

 

[D e l t a]

I heard that this place is dead, isnt fox top tier

Him and like 10 other characters

Nobody is truly good enough to say that this character or that one is 'top tier' or the best. Currently tier lists are primarily based on less than 50 top players across the U.S. who play well with their respective characters. A number of bias results from a good player being PRd in their state or an overwhelming skill difference / lack of MU knowledge between two players.

There's also everyone in this thread that theory crafts MUs and approximates a character's respective placing slowly, but surely.

 

[Nausicaa]

I guess this is the best place to mention this FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME I'M SURE

ehem...

Dayum everyone is so trash at this game.
Just watching any stream or tournament set or anything, it's amazing how far off the game is from developed to even a DECENT degree.
Watching anything... is just like ouch my face.

It's just great.

I watched through some GF matches on various tournaments from various regions with various players in them, and it's SO COOL to see how on-the-fly everyone STILL is, and likely will be for a LONG time, because of how complex and deep this game is.
It's Melee-style long-term meta-growth, but way less... direct... mass-spread... fine-tuned... steady... stable... etc.
So it's just a mess and it's great.

Example would be like... any match really. One of the last ones I watched was Jasonwaterfalls (who I've considered to be more on-the-path to 'proper' ZSS play since she was introduced to PM), and Lucky (classic Melee player who's got a solid grasp of key elements that give him a distinct play while still being effective)
Waterfalls was abusing Up-B more than ever, likely because some other components of ZSS's game have started to fit into place as not-bread-and-butter so the actual BnB stuff can come into play. Though it's AFTER her Up-B was nerfed that he's starting to do it. It's like blasters and space aerials alone were finally look beyond after some changes and the game flushed out. EVEN FOR SOMEONE who was further along the ZSSing route than anyone else I'd seen on the mainstream.
On Lucky's end, just watching his Fox then his Wolf and it's like a different player. Someone with a sense of certainty and MAKING SURE turned into someone flailing because they don't really understand how to hit people and not get hit in ANY WAY with the character against the other character.
Then watching from a more universal stand-point, essentially both players were rotating through essentially shuffled patterns and maneuvers in various cycles, in all zones of the game from neutral, offensive, and defensive. Doing a few basic tech-related motions with platforms into some kind of generic drop through to connect something and a mix-up, or some basic dashing into attempting clips to lead into something.
Most of it results in over-extending, and not being punished very significantly, which usually ended due to an over-extension, that also wasn't thoroughly punished, etc.

And this goes for EVERY SINGLE MATCH I've ever seen in PM to-date.

This game is just incredible to watch beside top-end Melee as a reflector-of-play.

So far to go.

I speculate sexy-time for a long time with this project.

And that my tier-list is the best.

Because Nutso says so.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Squirtle buffs when

 

[DMG]

That complexity and depth is what leads to perpetual "on-the-fly" in the first place though. There's no guaranteed formula for winning (), and describing the optimal choice/punish/movement only makes sense in the context of knowing all the other details as well. I don't necessarily hold that against players, especially if the experience of the moment is from spectating instead of playing. You have to think and act ahead of the moment, or fall behind in a match (at least the further up you go that seems to hold true).

Stuff that looks terrible or not very optimal after re-watching your set, may have made perfect sense in the course of a match based on the context. Not to mention that we're all going to look terrible compared to what's TAS capable.

I get the bit about patterns and routines in neutral though. Most people fall back on stuff they have done in the past that seems reliable to do, in periods of uncertainty. It's technically not optimal, but at the same time being optimal (or optimal vs strong but not optimal) requires a level or precision and willingness to increase risk taking that's hard to accept at times.

 

[Nausicaa]

DMG, for sure.
It's all part of the process.
To elaborate (in weird directions) on what you pointed out...
Often, the 'optimal' thing is usually something OFF the formula (or whatever the standard/most probably effective thing might be)
The thing that catches an opponent by 'surprise' (vague way to put it but I'm sure the idea is clear) and the read to the bigger punish, rather than the more certain/etc one, is actually optimal. The random, usually inefficient, but rewarding 'guess' or 'attempt' that succeeds.
The process for that then, would have to start where EVERYTHING is essentially an attempt/guess/etc, because the formula itself STILL IS a giant OFF-the-formula game.
Being caught-up in a moment (again, vague way to put it) can often be for entire matches. That 'proper' play often means being comfortable/effective/functional to an optimal extent WITHIN the flow of that 'caught-up' moment-to-moment happening.
The process of that then, means that so much of the nuance and comfort and 'formula' and 'tricks' stuff has to be worked out to actually hope of being ALL OF THAT within the caught-up state of play.
To start with, of course it'll be a mess, and it will remain a mess until literally EVERYTHING that isn't simply the 'attempts/guessing' and fine-tuning of that, is COMPLETELY worked through. AKA, meta got a ways to go.

It's not so much the terrible stuff looking bad next to TAS.
Terrible stuff in Melee would be a blind hopeful Falco D-Air to the middle of a stage off a platform against a DDing Marth.
Never get away with that in Melee.
In PM, you'll see a Wolf do it every match. A Mario approach with a fireball wall that goes right into a position he could get slapped for, but get away with it without being touched because the opponent is still trying to get THEIR stuff together. A bit of pattern on a stage isn't exactly optimal OR NOT optimal, but when it's lasering for the sake of lasering like the tech-heavy era of Melee, or Bairing for the sake of Bairing as a new Jiggs player, or double fairing for the sake of double fairing as a new Marth player, or DD grabbing for the sake of DD grabbing as a Fox, or whatever in Melee...
There's VERY OBSERVABLE room for change that WILL VERY SOON come simply by nature of it being a shuffle-through phase of the person's game-play and learning.
When this is the case on BARELY any deeper a level with the very top-end level of PM play, stuff that's VERY OBSERVABLE and VERY SOON to change simply by nature of those players shuffling through that phase of game-play...
Then dayum. The meta-game can develop so fast, yet so far away.

The other side of it is simply the method-of-practice too.
Gotta learn all those patterns, before you can drop the spam-of-them for another set of patterns. So that all you're left with FROM that exploring is the good-stuff. The knowing-when to do something in-line with that maneuver. The ability to do it WHEN that time is right. And the knowing when NOT to.
That will all come with playing oneself into fluency, and we all know that works wonders given how that's seemingly the general method EVERYONE seems to go about.

Then, all the good-stuff gets grouped with more good-stuff, and moved on again, flushing out that game-play and filling the container of goodies until it's full, and a meta-game (FINALLY) can ACTUALLY start to evolve. An ACTUAL meta-game, is a long way off.
It's all part of the process.

Love this game.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Part of it is also an unwillingness to part with what we think we know. Discussions and viewpoints are overly concrete right now when there's a lot of information that isn't being utilized yet, isn't widely known, or is still out there waiting to be found. But players all the way up to the top level are too inclined to disregard arguments and information, even when well-supported, simply because it doesn't fit within their observed slice of the PM-meta. The hubris is very real.

 

[1FD]

Shut up naus
Nobody will EVER do side-bs with Wolf in game so stop saying ending combos are important things to look at

Shut up infinity
Nobody will EVER need to end combos or play the game well because whatever we do first and/or now is best

 

[Frost | Odds]

Part of it is also an unwillingness to part with what we think we know. Discussions and viewpoints are overly concrete right now when there's a lot of knowledge that isn't being utilized yet, isn't widely known, or is still out there waiting to be found. But players all the way up to the top level are too inclined to disregard arguments and information, even when well-supported, simply because it doesn't fit within their observed slice of the PM-meta. The hubris is very real.

story of my life.

2.6b
Odds: Hey guys Ivy seems a bit dumb right now, could we please talk about this
Everyone else: Why you gotta be such a stupid salty ***** Odds? How about we just call you names and then accuse you of being defensive
[After it's clear to all that Ivy is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

3.02
Odds: Hey guys m2 is pretty OP you seriously want to check it out
Everybody else: nobody's getting results with him you ****ing idiot, obviously you just don't know how to smash
[After it's clear to all that M2 is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

Early 3.5
Odds: Hey guys, ROB and Yoshi seem pretty busted. Like, nobody's actually playing them properly but their potential is ********
Everybody else: no you idiot, you can footstool yoshi and ROB totally loses to a couple characters
[After it's clear to all that ROB and Yoshi are broken]
Everyone else: Odds is still a horrible judge of character potential and should feel bad about everything


I've pretty much given up on this kind of discussion. Everyone's so terrible at the game and so unwilling to even temporarily change their paradigm or controls or tech skill for any reason, talking about it seems pointless. :/

 

[InfinityCollision]

An unfortunate consequence is that this creates a cycle of meta fragmentation. People reduce or stop contributing to widely viewed discussions, so we're back to limited communication via word of mouth, PMs, Skype, small YT/Twitch channels, etc and whatever happens to find its way to a widely viewed stream (where the masses form their tier lists, hello 3.0 S@X). 2005 communication in 2015. Word gets out or gets proven wrong eventually, but it's taking longer than it really should given the tools at our disposal and the strength/size of the community.

 

[Nausicaa]

Part of it is also an unwillingness to part with what we think we know. Discussions and viewpoints are overly concrete right now when there's a lot of knowledge that isn't being utilized yet, isn't widely known, or is still out there waiting to be found. But players all the way up to the top level are too inclined to disregard arguments and information, even when well-supported, simply because it doesn't fit within their observed slice of the PM-meta. The hubris is very real.

Guess that makes more sense with Odds's 'Muck and the Watcher' analogy too.
I'm not too familiar with the community/discussions/mainstream side of this game, so I only ever get second-hand insight it seems. It makes sense that the community is like that, but I think I would be surprised if it was any other way.
Glad I'm not a part of it, but I bet it's fun to be 'in-the-mix' as a more consistent member of the larger communities with PM. I'm not sure I'll ever want to be so deep in something again, but Smash would be up there on the list if I WERE to commit to something all-out.
Bunch a nerds <3

I like the way you put all that, but I REALLY DON'T like the use of the word 'knowledge' in that context.
Understanding might fit a bit better, but knowledge in the conventional sense implies 'knowing' and that sets the wrong tone for what is actually happening.
So I'll try explaining it differently...

The Hopi natives have a saying that every animal knows more than we do. What that means has NOTHING to do with knowledge, but I think that's very much more fitting to Smash in the terms that both you and @ DMG just mentioned.
A dog will know when someone is going to get excited/emotional/sick, LONG before WE know with any form of 'knowledge'
And this 'knowing' (even for us) has NOTHING to do with us preemptively expecting it, or playing ahead of the moment as DMG put it. We can 'know' without any kind of intellectual play or experience at all, and that 'knowing' has more to do with animal-like attentiveness than it does our mental-conditioning.
A cat will sit there alert, but it's not alert with ANY kind of understanding or knowledge, yet it will respond accordingly and precisely EXACTLY as it needs to EXACTLY when it needs to, appropriately. Not appropriate in the sense of a thing drops and it's a carrot and the cat doesn't just go eat it and not be concerned, but appropriate in the sense that it'll attend and act immediately in a way that an presence-of-being allows it to. Quickly, and impartial to what happens DUE to its actions, and immediately resetting to the next action necessary with no regard to the immediate past/action previously performed.
I bet there's some rant about that in here somewhere. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bwj_FVRB63ajcUJGVnpTeU9XU3c&ddrp=1

So knowledge has that 'meaning' to it that I KNOW will give people the wrong impression if they read it as such.

So...
-there's a lot of knowledge that isn't being utilized yet, isn't widely known, or is still out there waiting to be found.
Turns into
-there's a lot of activity that isn't being attended to yet, isn't widely processed, or is still observable waiting to be phase-out.

I like that better.
Attend to what is and the space to grow will come.
What's the point of looking for more, knowing more, or utilizing more knowledge about the game, when one doesn't even know how what they're doing ALREADY is working/not working?
With THIS knowledge utilized, things would be several years beyond where we are now.
But screw that.
Overplaying oneself into fluency is WAY easier than becoming fluent to play.
Easier meaning AKA simpler and can be lazy at the passive happening.
Easier as in functionally frictionless and effortless at the passive happening, would imply the mild task of shifting attention.
You don't even have to do anything, you do it already. You play, you live, you breathe. The attention can be anywhere and do anything, and the playing/etc will still happen. Why not give attention to where attention is going and see what's up? It doesn't even take extra time or effort, just a bit of fun attention-to-detail and exploring.

Nah




PS: Only concrete things are.
Fox the best
Ooze gets his own tier
Peach, Pika, and Luigi must be forever baddies

 

[Frost | Odds]

PS: Only concrete things are.
...
Peach, Pika, and Luigi must be forever baddies

Peach and Luigi are pretty damn good though. Peach players are just terrible at using her PM tech, and Luigi players are just terrible.

That said, angleable peach fsmash to pick the weapon when

 

[InfinityCollision]

I like the way you put all that, but I REALLY DON'T like the use of the word 'knowledge' in that context.
Understanding might fit a bit better, but knowledge in the conventional sense implies 'knowing' and that sets the wrong tone for what is actually happening.

I rewrote bits of that post a couple times before submitting. Looking back, I should've changed that to "information" somewhere along the way. Understanding is good too. Both convey a sense of flow. Things come, things go, we move beyond where we stood before.

 

[Nausicaa]

An unfortunate consequence is that this creates a cycle of meta fragmentation. People reduce or stop contributing to widely viewed discussions, so we're back to limited communication via word of mouth, PMs, Skype, small YT/Twitch channels, etc and whatever happens to find its way to a widely viewed stream (where the masses form their tier lists, hello 3.0 S@X). 2005 communication in 2015. Word gets out or gets proven wrong eventually, but it's taking longer than it really should given the tools at our disposal and the strength/size of the community.

Was an edit but I'll just post it as another post....





To address that post^
I'm not sure 'the word of the masses' matters. Especially when it comes to things being proven wrong/right. Sure, there's an impact when it comes to a game that's updated BASED on such things, but it's not really something to be concerned with to any serious effect due to just that, it DOES work itself out eventually. As best it can? Likely no, but it's functional, and if it functions, there's every chance in the world that it can go where is best appropriate.
Dota2 is getting worse with every patch and has been for years, but it can turn the corner on any step. Smite has the potential to be one of the most dynamic games in the world, but they're going almost the complete opposite direction with it since launch, but it still could flip.
The measurement of a sage is by one thing, those who are on the path, and those who are not, but at all times, one can only ever be 1 step away from being on the path again.
As Victor Wooten puts it to music, you can only ever be 1 note off a 'right' note.
For Smash? You can only ever be 1 decision away from making the right one. Not more than that. At any time, 1 single mental action can change a person entirely, and that goes for every single action attended-to that you can do.
Such is life.

Meta-fragmentation ain't so bad.
Just makes it easier for me to keep up while afk from the game.
If you're in-the-mix and want to explore yourself using Smash as your context (which is literally all any CAN EVER DO with the game, regardless of what they think they're doing by playing it)
Then go with it as deeply as you can, and if you're facing in the 'right' direction, keep on walking.
Others will find their way.
Trust me. They all can, and they all will, but we (me too) are SOME of 'everyone' so if 'everyone' has gotta shift. Each of us gets a turn. Steppidy step.
/endrant
/pointless rant but I'm typing random stuff so whadoyoucare\

Peach and Luigi are pretty damn good though. Peach players are just terrible at using her PM tech, and Luigi players are just terrible.

That said, angleable peach fsmash to pick the weapon when

No
For years I was defending those 3 as being NOT bottom-tier and I lost the fight because I left the forums while the discussion was still going on.

They are forever deemed to badness because of my defeat.

Nobody can raise them now.
Not now, not ever.

Things come, things go, we move beyond where we stood before.

talking about it seems pointless. :/

Let's start a club where we talk about pointless things for literally no point at all, and watch as the discussion comes and goes, and eventually we'll get beyond it...
Maybe that'll help with this muck.

PS: Everyone is invited.
Without exception or choice.
We'll call the club something along the lines of a 'life-experience' or 'flow of existence' or 'time and space mind and body interaction as a being on a planet in the cosmos and functioning in the physical plain'
or ionno
PM Social/Speculatory shindigs

 

[FreeGamer]

story of my life.

2.6b
Odds: Hey guys Ivy seems a bit dumb right now, could we please talk about this
Everyone else: Why you gotta be such a stupid salty ***** Odds? How about we just call you names and then accuse you of being defensive
[After it's clear to all that Ivy is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

3.02
Odds: Hey guys m2 is pretty OP you seriously want to check it out
Everybody else: nobody's getting results with him you ****ing idiot, obviously you just don't know how to smash
[After it's clear to all that M2 is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

Early 3.5
Odds: Hey guys, ROB and Yoshi seem pretty busted. Like, nobody's actually playing them properly but their potential is ********
Everybody else: no you idiot, you can footstool yoshi and ROB totally loses to a couple characters
[After it's clear to all that ROB and Yoshi are broken]
Everyone else: Odds is still a horrible judge of character potential and should feel bad about everything


I've pretty much given up on this kind of discussion. Everyone's so terrible at the game and so unwilling to even temporarily change their paradigm or controls or tech skill for any reason, talking about it seems pointless. :/

Where were you for 2.1 Ike/Lucario or 2.5 Sonic/Diddy? checkm8 bruh

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm not sure 'the word of the masses' matters. Especially when it comes to things being proven wrong/right. Sure, there's an impact when it comes to a game that's updated BASED on such things, but it's not really something to be concerned with to any serious effect due to just that, it DOES work itself out eventually. As best it can? Likely no, but it's functional, and if it functions, there's every chance in the world that it can go where is best appropriate.

Not really what I meant. Perhaps an explanation of my own?

You've said in the past "to teach is to learn", which is true. But also, to learn is to gain an opportunity to teach. That opportunity is lost (if only temporarily) without a second party receptive to learning.

Basically few are actively pursuing that new understanding and not many more are actively seeking to benefit from their understanding.

This is nothing new, to me or to anyone, but it's always a little disappointing when an opportunity goes to waste. Even if it does make the moments where someone seeks to truly learn all the better...

Tangent: I revisited an old haunt recently, one in which I taught for several years. A couple of of my former students helped me get back into things. Life is cool like that sometimes.

As Victor Wooten puts it to music, you can only ever be 1 note off a 'right' note.

Speaking to my soul here

 

[Frost | Odds]

Where were you for 2.1 Ike/Lucario or 2.5 Sonic/Diddy? checkm8 bruh

playing Super Shine Bros & Marth.

@ Nausicaa gimme your skype ID, we'll make a Meandering Off-Topic Discussion group

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I was talking to Machiavelli and Nashun (Two socal players) not too long ago about how people at high/top level play go about thinking and playing their games and sets in PM. And how it's so bizarre and different than top level melee play.

This is a very good article that kinda captures the spot where PM's meta is currently at: http://gamedesignadvance.com/?p=2346

The idea is that no one really knows what's going on in this game, so the thing that's gonna get you through a tournament isn't the preparation of knowing what the optimal strategy to do in all situations is-- it's the ability to adapt and play exactly one step ahead of your opponent. I believe that it's safe to assume that anyone you go up against in tourney has very little experience with your character's matchup and vice verse. So every single tourney set is an arms race between the two players to figure out and learn the matchup faster than the other. There are exceptions, obviously, but many of PM's matchups are not even close to being figured out. And it's sorta up to you as a player to advance the matchup in your own little way and figure out the options that work well against the person you are playing against at the time you are playing against them. So the ability to try new things, eyeball approximate solutions, and quickly digest your opponent's strategy is super valuable in this game at a top level.

This is all true for Melee in addition to PM since both are such incredibly nuanced and complicated games, but PM is just so extreme. Aftershock was the first time I ever played against a good Ness or a good Link and there was an outrageous amount of feeling each other out and free-styling in those sets. And I am positive that those sets were some of the only sets that have ever been played between a high level ZSS and Link/Ness.

All high level socal players that I talk to think about the game in these terms. The question is not "is it safe?" or "is this optimal?", but the question is instead "will this option work for me right now?" or "how can I catch him/her off guard?".

 

[DrinkingFood]

story of my life.

2.6b
Odds: Hey guys Ivy seems a bit dumb right now, could we please talk about this
Everyone else: Why you gotta be such a stupid salty ***** Odds? How about we just call you names and then accuse you of being defensive
[After it's clear to all that Ivy is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

3.02
Odds: Hey guys m2 is pretty OP you seriously want to check it out
Everybody else: nobody's getting results with him you ****ing idiot, obviously you just don't know how to smash
[After it's clear to all that M2 is broken]
Everyone else: We obviously knew about this the whole time.

Early 3.5
Odds: Hey guys, ROB and Yoshi seem pretty busted. Like, nobody's actually playing them properly but their potential is ********
Everybody else: no you idiot, you can footstool yoshi and ROB totally loses to a couple characters
[After it's clear to all that ROB and Yoshi are broken]
Everyone else: Odds is still a horrible judge of character potential and should feel bad about everything


I've pretty much given up on this kind of discussion. Everyone's so terrible at the game and so unwilling to even temporarily change their paradigm or controls or tech skill for any reason, talking about it seems pointless. :/

What. Where is anybody saying Yoshi is busted lol. Who won a national and I didn't hear about it.
Also idk who all is saying ROB is busted. Most people are saying he's a top 5 char, or hell even top 3, I think you're the only one to actually say he's top 1. Which is wrong btw. But if ROB needs any real change it's to not be so hard to punish, and I don't mind him being less floaty at all.

But if you think nobody's playing ROB properly, why don't you try picking up ROB and we'll $50 MM ditto sometime

 

[DMG]

Still not a fan of trying to fix ROB by tinkering with his weight/float levels. That's probably some secondary stuff you look at before handling the main course, and I was under the assumption that the character was *actually* good, not that he became top 5/3/1 for being a heavy-floaty nerd.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What. Where is anybody saying Yoshi is busted lol. Who won a national and I didn't hear about it.
Also idk who all is saying ROB is busted. Most people are saying he's a top 5 char, or hell even top 3, I think you're the only one to actually say he's top 1. Which is wrong btw. But if ROB needs any real change it's to not be so hard to punish, and I don't mind him being less floaty at all.

But if you think nobody's playing ROB properly, why don't you try picking up ROB and we'll $50 MM ditto sometime

Ah, I forgot that part 3 of the Yoshi+ROB phase hasn't happened yet.

My bad. Don't worry, everybody. Remember, I'm a terrible judge of character potential, and should feel bad.

 

[jtm94]

A lot of people thought Yoshi was amazing, some still do and he became so much more normal with this version compared to the last it's like night and day.

I know a lot of different PM players from different backgrounds and they all think about the game in different ways. It's very strange how some people approach differing MUs and the things that get them through it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think you're mostly just experiencing a serious case of confirmation bias, @ Frost | Odds

 

[PlateProp]

Nah Rob and Yoshi are pretty busted

I mean have you seen Yoshi's down smash/tilt? ****s huge and comes out so fast, like pmdt pls

Also make everyone less busted while you're fixing those two

 

[jtm94]

He can Dsmash OUT OF SHIELD!!! And that's because he can jump out of shield, he has to be busted. I hear he has good MUs on Marth and Roy, he's all that and a few bags of chips. Check his eggroll it goes like half screen and autocombos.

I'd insert something saying too bad about footstools, but I don't think they wreck Yoshi and they won't for a while. It's too strange to read his DJ movement and you can be naired out of any risky footstool attempt. I'm waiting for 20-eggs-eggs, we just need the prophet.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Just out of curiousity, what makes yoshi's down smash ridiculous when compared to mario's or wolf's.

And Odds you wouldn't have trouble selling people on rob's kit being too strong as of now. Tilts currently feel like they have either too much knockback or too good of an angle, ability to combo him back is rather low for the majority of the cast, and min laser comes up a bit too fast (nothing outrageous other characters have obnoxious throws like rob).

But with yoshi, more clarification of what you find silly about the character would be good for discussion. (Besides the st.up.id grab parry, and auto armor jump.)

A positive of 3.5 is no one has to read on the update this for character notes:
Sheik's tilts at the cost of having more range.
Samus's charge shot at the cost of being useful uncharged.
Peach's float at the cost of being able to go in all directions.
Wolf's fair at the cost of being faster.
Lucas's up throw at the cost of not having a heavily punishable tether animation on wiff.
Brawl metaknight nado at the cost of being able to cancel into other moves.

 

[didds]

Just out of curiousity, what makes yoshi's down smash ridiculous when compared to mario's or wolf's.

frame 3(?) startup, stupid knockback, stupid knockback angle, he can dj land out of shield then dsmash.

these are the reasons often stated.

yoshi sucks though don't worry, no one even picks master race dark blue or super royalty bros purple

 

[D e l t a]

So my training partner is a Yoshi and there's another Yoshi player on the west side of my state that has only been a competitive player for under a year and will most likely be PR'd next season.

Yoshi bodies FE cast and does work on spacies / fast fallers / bad recoveries.

I can tell you right now that the character is not busted or broken to any degree, but the character has very stupid traits that get him out of most situations. As with most characters, the biggest flaws lie within a poor neutral game, which obviously can be offset by a player's skill (see: aMSa, Axe, etc).

==

Why Yoshi is stupidly good

PAL weight + fall speed means that combos need more knockback to combo Yoshi, whereas almost every single light hit will be CC'd or armored. Starting anything on Yoshi is next to impossible when he has a jump or is on the ground. This is where you would say "oh just grab him," except HE HAS A 6 FRAME GRAB PARRY. Not to mention his enormous tilt size, large Nair hitbox, and Fair -> Tilts / jabs being pretty safe on shield and zoning out opponents pretty hard.

Speaking of grabs, his dash grab has a ******** grab box size and if it wasn't for the end lag, it would be pretty busted. The active frames feels like 3.0 Lucas dash grab all over again. Followups are extremely free on almost every character and he has a stupid good chain grab on most heavies / fast fallers that can carry them off the stage and lead to free ledge guards

UpB Eggs need to burst at some point. I understand the punishable frames if they whiff, but dodging 2-3 eggs offstage while avoiding his Nair, Dtilt, and anything else during recovery is unreasonable.

SideB has increased priority based on speed. While this is a cool concept in theory, there are times where it feels like the priority of Ganon's DownB (also currently silly).

==

@ Nausicaa your post about meta game stuff has finally given me the inspiration to stop playing bad. Thanks n stuff

 

[FreeGamer]

All this Yoshi talk and no mention of how absurd his CC Down-B is?

 

[D e l t a]

All this Yoshi talk and no mention of how absurd his CC Down-B is?

Oh yeah, the fact that if you're in range it's a free hit & you can't SDI out...

But my friend Railz uses it all the time so I can typically punish / anticipate it. It's alright I guess

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think you're mostly just experiencing a serious case of confirmation bias, @ Frost | Odds

Absolutely possible. I don't think your ROB is nearly as undeveloped as Yoshi, for example, in terms of tech - it's more that (as far as I can see) you lack tournament experience so your fundamentals are a bit shaky sometimes. That's not a criticism on your level of talent at all - it literally can't be improved by anything but grinding out more time in the lab and in tournaments. You seem to have the impression that I've disrespected you; for that I apologize.

Anyway, I'm already picking up enough characters to prove enough points right now; it seems kinda odd that I'm the only top player on SmashBoards who can't simply state anything about a character I don't already play - for some reason I alone am challenged to go prove it. I'm still grinding out Yoshi and Ganon in addition to my actual secondary as well as my video and modding work. There are only so many hours in the day.

 

[Life]

I play Meta Knight for largely the same reason. Because his 3.02 dair was so important to his metagame at the time, 3.5 dealt him a large meta setback, but a character with a dashdance game like his and kill/edgeguard potential like his can't possibly be as bad as people think.

 

[Ripple]

it seems kinda odd that I'm the only top player on SmashBoards who can't simply state anything about a character I don't already play - for some reason I alone am challenged to go prove it.

@ Frost | Odds , hey remember when I said DK WASN'T a finished character and strong bad hadn't peaked his metagame and people were giving me crap about that? youre not the only one

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Ripple

Its 5 frames of jumpsquat, 1 frame of armored double jump, 7 frames of dsmash. Frame 13 isn't that bad, especially considering how far it hit horizontally. If you are slow on your jump input, its 5 of jumpsquat, 1 non armored air born frame, 3 armored airborne frames, 7 frames of dsmash, which is frame 16.