Tier List Speculation

[robosteven]

Not really but think what you want when uair juggles to 120

If you're getting juggled to 120 by Link's uair you're doing something horribly wrong.

 

[BS_Shane]

Not really but think what you want when uair juggles to 120

with no DI*

 

[DiZZ]

If you're getting juggled to 120 by Link's uair you're doing something horribly wrong.

If horribly wrong you mean sdiing up and away to try and not get hit again but not go offstage then you are right, you can either go offstage and die or take the latter

 

[BS_Shane]

Dude, guaranteed combos exist in smash. Link gets a few guaranteed up airs, just like DK, but if you do what I saw in that video then you're just going to keep getting up aired. Sure, he gets a few guaranteed up airs, but you can easily escape after that if you just save your jump and DI correctly. Also, you did not SDI all of those up airs like you said you did...

 

[DiZZ]

Dude, guaranteed combos exist in smash. Link gets a few guaranteed up airs, just like DK, but if you do what I saw in that video then you're just going to keep getting up aired. Sure, he gets a few guaranteed up airs, but you can easily escape after that if you just save your jump and DI correctly. Also, you did not SDI all of those up airs like you said you did...

I physically tested this with teachable and hero of time afterwards so if you want to try and bs tier list spec chat shane go ahead but in reality I sdi up every time and still had enough stun to get hit with another uair even with wiggling out of stun by trying to buffer out my jump was eaten by a uair on reaction if you watched more closely i could di offstage but what would that accomplish when I just get put back in the same position ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Boiko]

Sometimes you have to DI into an unfavorable position, such as off stage, in order to prevent a follow up. The choice becomes: risk an edge guard situation, or just die.

For example, if Sheik forward tilts you when you're by the ledge, you have to DI off the stage, otherwise she'll get an aerial follow up. Or when Marth is stringing forward airs, DI out where he may edge guard you, or get spiked and die.

In your case, you have no jump, how are you expecting to come down and circumvent a lingering disjointed hitbox? That's going to be very difficult. If you're going to die by staying on stage, it was better to go off stage.

 

[DiZZ]

Sometimes you have to DI into an unfavorable position, such as off stage, in order to prevent a follow up. The choice becomes: risk an edge guard situation, or just die.

For example, if Sheik forward tilts you when you're by the ledge, you have to DI off the stage, otherwise she'll get an aerial follow up. Or when Marth is stringing forward airs, DI out where he may edge guard you, or get spiked and die.

In your case, you have no jump, how are you expecting to come down and circumvent a lingering disjointed hitbox? That's going to be very difficult. If you're going to die by staying on stage, it was better to go off stage.

Well I know that much I play melee pretty often, I just thought with good enough sdi you could have escaped the string without going off stage but apparently not, also at certain spots if dk has enough frames you can throw out the fair and the downwards hitbox can cover and or beat out juggles, in this case I have to wait out the uair lingering hitbox which clearly isnt possible from further inspection

 

[Ripple]

you did not SDI those upairs.

 

[CELTiiC]

Well I know that much I play melee pretty often, I just thought with good enough sdi you could have escaped the string without going off stage but apparently not, also at certain spots if dk has enough frames you can throw out the fair and the downwards hitbox can cover and or beat out juggles, in this case I have to wait out the uair lingering hitbox which clearly isnt possible from further inspection

DK's falling f-air will not beat out Link's disjointed u-air lol. Honestly SDI up would have gotten you out, or would have definitely given you enough time to get Up B out to escape the juggle. Honestly,from the video it doesn't really look like you were SDI'ing the up airs.

 

[Soft Serve]

If you're getting juggled to 120 by Link's uair you're doing something horribly wrong.

Like playing dk

 

[DiZZ]

DK's falling f-air will not beat out Link's disjointed u-air lol. Honestly SDI up would have gotten you out, or would have definitely given you enough time to get Up B out to escape the juggle. Honestly,from the video it doesn't really look like you were SDI'ing the up airs.

I said that in my post I was sding up you can test it for yourself Im not gonna say anything you can even see my accidental uair from the juggles me mashing up on c stick and actual stick

 

[robosteven]

Like playing dk

my reaction was your avatar

 

[Ripple]

you did not SDI those upairs

 

[CELTiiC]

I said that in my post I was sding up you can test it for yourself Im not gonna say anything you can even see my accidental uair from the juggles me mashing up on c stick and actual stick

Yes, I did read that but to my point if you mashed out an u-air then you could have gotten an Up B out and made an attempt for either the platform or the ledge, or forced yourself into a different position. Also, DI'ing off stage isn't always a bad thing it forces a different situation. I don't know why you are so opposed against it.

Edit: Poor wording.

 

[JOE!]

This guy is arguing DK vs POOB...

 

[Magus420]

If you DIed the 2nd u-air left, 4th right, and maaaybe 6th to the right (kinda high at that point) you would have gone too far to the side for another u-air. It sends at 80 so he needs to be moving forward to follow away DI with another u-air, so if he's moving forward and gets the reverse hit and you DI behind he can't reach, or if straight above pick a side and hope you aren't DIing into a reverse hit.

 

[Akhenderson]

I said that in my post I was sding up you can test it for yourself Im not gonna say anything you can even see my accidental uair from the juggles me mashing up on c stick and actual stick

Hopefully I'm not crazy, but I'm pretty sure that Di-ing UP against Link's uairs are a terrible idea...

 

[DiZZ]

If you DIed the 2nd u-air left, 4th right, and maaaybe 6th to the right (kinda high at that point) you would have gone too far to the side for another u-air. It sends at 80 so he needs to be moving forward to follow away DI with another u-air, so if he's moving forward and gets the reverse hit and you DI behind he can't reach, or if straight above pick a side and hope you aren't DIing into a reverse hit.

Thank you for an actual useful tip gonna have to implement

 

[KinGly]

Why not side b to stall and throw off his timing?

 

[Ripple]

you know what actually is a useful tip? listening to people who tell you you didn't do something correctly and then going into the lab to practice it.

btw here you go if you want to look at this frame by frame

you didn't SDI up once, you SDIed the 6th up-air to the right and that was it.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is still being discussed?
Weird.

Let me link the last discussion piece that happened in this thread with any kind of value or insight involving Tiers.

I was going to post a collection of dialogues from various places, and try to explain a certain thing about why I've seen the meta-game from a very different light. That idea compiled this (for now), so here is it.


Basically this




My reply




I'm just gonna rant in any direction and try highlighting a character so people know when I start talking about them.

I whipped together a quick Tier-List for 3.6b 2 days before 3.6 dropped.
It was rough, but gave me a good idea of what I was looking at differently, so I dissected it.

I'll start from the Melee-core characters since they're kind of a bench-mark to everyone in SOME way and seem to be brought up a lot in discussion when I list things. Whether as a basis for match-up understanding, or gate-keepers to being a good character in PM.

This is what my quickly thrown together 3.6b list looked like with everything removed except Melee-ish characters.









At a glance, someone may notice that I don't think very highly of the Melee-top-tier in PM. I never really have, and that includes the favorite Designated S-Tier Fox.

I've ranted about how each of them is 'good' before, but this can be looked at in multiple ways.
From Melee-to-PM, or PM-exclusively.

Using the batch of characters around Fox in that list (the 'high/mid' Tier of Melee) as an easy example to start...

My best guess is that people think characters like Pikachu, Mario, Samus, Luigi, Toon Link, etc, are a LOT worse in Melee than they really are. All of these characters are clearly 2 things.
BOTH things.

1) Weaker than the top-end Melee characters
-AND-
2) Can keep up with them in a lot of ways.

BOTH of these are very observable and easy to see with just a bit of contemplation/exploration. It seems like the latter was lost, and that they're considered ONLY as weak-melee-characters when they're coming into PM, as if they couldn't do much of anything before.

A simple thing that I'm sure everyone has noticed is how characters like Pikachu are considered basically bottom-tier or lower on tier-lists throughout every PM incarnation. Even today.

-Talking about Melee-to-PM and going into PM-exclusive a bit here...
We've seen Pika have great showings in recent years in Melee, whether it's top-placings at major tournaments, or beating top-players in what are considered nearly not-winnable match-ups.
So, if taking a look at what COULD make Pika a solid contender, what would it be?

He has solid moves that were lacking in his kit (B-Air), more damage across a lot of key moves (Jolt/U-Air), simple things like a Crawl, less lag on recovering along with a new diverse tool (QAC), the ability to RETREAT out of IASA frames (D-Tilt), RAR/wave-bounce/etc stuff that compliments him more than most (U-Air/new B-Air with RAR, Down/Neutral-B wave-bouncing, great ground-air-ground transition game)

What more does this character need to be ON PAR with the Melee top-end?
Let alone BETTER than the Melee top-tier?
Stubby arms?
Improve his key moves there then (Grab, F-Air, D-Air).
Throw him in a game where more universal stock-taking options are beneficial from gimps to vertical kills in a game with diversity?
All of this is done.
What now?
What can this character POSSIBLY need to be an equal with the top-end Melee characters?

I've yet to understand it, and simply don't see it, and I've been curious to know what people think has to be done to Pikachu to MAKE him one of the best characters in the game.
This has never gotten an answer.
Especially when near the end of 3.02, he was one of the few actually considered to likely go even with the Designated S-Tier Fox AND the Beast of 3.02 Mewtwo. Both of them in the same game, and still be bad in that game.

I don't understand how someone can think a character could be on the weak end of a game and STILL think THAT is possible, yet that's what has happened in every PM patch to-date. Ganon can't even do anything against Mewtwo, yet Pika did better than MOST in that match-up, and isn't better than almost anyone?

It's always been directed at me, in the sense I've been told to explain why characters like Pikachu are good, when it really seems like everyone else needs to explain why they're NOT that good. Getting an explanation as to why Pikachu is NOT one of the better characters, as an example of the MANY characters I've been asked to point out strengths in, is something that has never even come close to happening.
"He can be punished hard" I guess is the closest that has ever come next to something like "stubby arms"
As if Fox/Mewtwo/Ganonlol have an easy time catching him in the first place, and as if CF/Lucas/Marth getting punished hard makes them bottom-tier on every list alongside Pikachu too *they-never-are-though.

How about Samus? She's solid, isn't she? What's her problem? Too slow to be good?
Melee-to-PM, how about giving her a Roll, a Crawl, faster and bigger and better hit-boxes on key moves and making more of her moves useful in all areas of her game.
If she was in Melee with these buffs, would she be on-par with Melee-tops at last, or still weak?

Her Z-Air was new, and it was the best move in 3.02 that was never talked about nearly enough. It's still there in a lesser form.
What do these characters need to be contenders for top spots?

Samus got some attention in 3.02 it appears, and that stayed a bit into 3.5/3.6, so that's good.

TL is in the same boat. Got some attention and it stuck. Yet this seemed so obvious from day-1. As mentioned in the quote above-

-he's basically a really solid character that plays like a bag of counter-play options inside a cage of stock-taking conversions, and somehow you need to get whatever is in the bag while it's taped to the back of a wild boar.

YL was functioning mildly with NO GRAB, that alone would help him huge. In 2.1 he had a Galaxy-Grab (grabs you from space) and it lead to some of the most busted easy-mode stock-ending strings possible. That behind the 1 game-plan that YL somehow made work, buffed to core-game (Jiggs-B-Air centralized) levels, and he's pretty obviously strong. The discussion I guess leads to "is he better than the Melee-top-tier" and as far as I'm concerned, more characters in the game fear TL than any of THEM.

Some characters can't even get Samus off the ground.
Some characters can't even get to TL passed the mess.
THEY are the gate-keepers if PM ever had any.

Mario is on the TL/Samus end too. Got some attention, that faded a bit, but most of this was seemingly due to an ease-of-play with a certain style that involved almost everything that an end-game Mario wouldn't be doing. In Melee, my Mario/Fox could beat Mango's Mario/Fox, and his Mario/Fox could beat my Mario/Fox. This was in 2010, so a while ago, but In our matches, we both noted very directly at how we barely ever jumped. Ever. Mario simply can't get away with that kind of commitment when it comes to end-game level play.

Yet all I've really see in PM Mario-matches from 2.1 to today is things like full-jump Fireballs and attempts at D-Air, or some aerial into D-Smash or raw approach into clipping someone with something.

He can get away with this in the sense that he has a lot of hard-hitbox coverage, but as soon as Mario is seen as a character that uses that to cover his holes in neutral and choke people out with spacing and short-burst maneuvers, rather than force openings or holes in the opponents game, the sooner his meta-game will be seen like that of a modern-day Falco, rather than a 2007 Melee Falco trying to laser into direct combos because counter-offensive play isn't coming his way yet.

Once the basis of what I mention in the DAT Smash is starting to look like a puzzle coming together in the meta-game among top-players in the public eye, then the general public will start to get an idea of what Mario can ACTUALLY do in PM, and how good he really is.
http://smashboards.com/threads/stubby-arms-and-fireballs-the-comprehensive-mario-guide.346088/
That DAT thing should explain it, but basically Mario is a fortress of defensive-to-offensive transition options and can maneuver through anything. IF he stays grounded and keeps the fortress up.
There is no thing that Mario can't deal with, and it has NOTHING to do with being a diverse and flexible character. Mario can deal with anything simply because he can play a defensive ground game that is essentially impenetrable.
Stop getting hit. It's easy with any of these characters, and Mario does it through a foundation of dashes and shields and pokes that never get him in trouble. The cool stuff happens naturally, everybody knows that, so it has to come eventually where people stop going for it and just let Mario do his cool things when they come.
Falco-style, really. Falco going for D-Air > Jab > D-Smash on shields would be weird, and it's weird to me when Mario does it today. This is old and would have looked really odd if a D-Smash followed even at that point of the meta, it looks weird from PM Mario right now.
http://gfycat.com/VapidRaggedAruanas
Imagine a Mario that simply never gets hit, and is always around the opponent to threaten them. THAT is the Mario that will come, and THAT is the Mario that shuts down the rest of the PM roster.

this is another big story but short-form...
We've seen random players spamming Hail-Mary Up-B's and Down-B-Repeat strings both do very well, and everything between. Similar to Mario, in terms of the way an ACTUAL end-game style and game-plan has yet to surface on any world-class level but is slowly being gravitated TOWARD at every level of play, and is inevitable, the same is the case with Luigi.

Soon we may see the campy spacing Luigi do well, with F-Tilts and aerials and playing very safe, hardly doing any real approaches but being precise and picking moments (think 'Ka' style), or maybe the fly-by Luigi will surface, similar to the Up-B straight-approach but with U-Tilts and Smashes and Grabs all raw out of simple and direct play. Maybe the complexity will show up in some ball by someone. Either way, nobody seems to have any idea how good this character is at all.

All I'll bother with this one is, he's gotten some attention recently as a "Maybe he's not so bad" character. What is it that people missed if they think he's low-tier instead of bottom-tier? Why didn't they think he was mid-tier instead of low-tier before? Why do they think he's high-tier now instead of mid-tier?

What is everyone REALLY missing/looking for/seeing? Pay close attention and maybe we'll see.
For now, I don't see what everyone is missing, and I have NO IDEA AT ALL why people think he's better now than they thought he was in 2.1.
Not much has changed with HIM, did the game around him change that much to benefit him?
Or do people still think he's bad? If so, I still don't get it. What makes him bad? What WOULD make him on-par with the Melee-Top-Tier?

Again, it makes no sense, and if someone can explain why Luigi is suddenly a lot better in 3.5/etc, that would be great. Never has someone been able to explain why he's bad, or show why he's bad, and the only explanations that come up support him being quite good, and the only demonstrated stuff about Luigi in any matches or tournaments or anything basically screams that he's VERY strong. This has been the way it is since day-1 of 2.1, just like with the others, and I don't get it.

Is it possible that everyone who thinks he's a "little better" now, missed something else, and will think he's better at a later date? Very likely.
Screw his stock-taking or neutral-breaking and speed and range... The character can be very non-committal while remaining to be a threat. There is plenty of counter-play in the sense of nullifying a lot of Luigi's more 'direct' options, but this is no different than stopping Puff from hitting you with Raw B-Air's. She can still use B-Air as a center-piece, and adjust in a way that it's threatening without getting herself killed. Every counter-play to Luigi to-date has been minimal, and every counter-play TO that counter-play has been minimal on Luigi's end. The meta-game is a baby in this one STILL.







I'm not sure if this is helpful, or worth discussing, but that's something that I see when I look at the game, and always has been.

Everyone around here seems to be approaching the 'goodness-of-characters' topic from the opposite direction. I completely understand why, but I also understand very well that none of the people who are doing so completely understand why they do.

Hence the confusion.

I'll be confused in my little bubble. You'll all be confused with mine.
Smash is good like that.



Edit:
On-topic
The only thing that changed about Ganon from early Project M patches to recent Project M patches, is that he has a better chance of landing the connections he works for WHEN he has worked for them.

He could always corner people, he could always take up space, he could always play a mouse-trap game where he makes things seem safe when they're not, and could get hits that way.

Yet when he put all the work into doing so, he was STILL left with very little change of hitting the opponent without a simple resetting of the situation being at arms-reach for them.

What a momentum-based command grab, hover, and other tools provided him, is some of the essentials necessary to have that final play in the corner-and-connect game FUNCTIONAL.
Functional is something Ganon has never been before, because of THIS specifically.

PM is the first time that he's be functional is Smash.
That's a huge leap forward.

Bowser gained a bit of this from a different angle in 3.6, if this is seen clearly, it'll make a lot more sense for everyone regarding balancing big and slow characters.
There's a reason the extremes from Link to DK work the way they do and somehow STILL work. This is why.

 

[Doctor Aids]

So, can someone explain ZSS to me? She seems like a solid character with a good dash dance, decent projectile, good speed, combos, and decent kill set ups. What's holding her back? Is it the recovery? I was just thinking about picking up a secondary ZSS so I was wondering what her biggest weaknesses are since she seems like she should be decently high tier.

 

[Player -0]

Her lack of reliable kills followups from her combos. Also no amazing sex kick. ZSS' recovery actually has a ton of mixup potential (pretty much only one out of the tether squad lol).

You can play around these things and do well-ish but it still hurts.

Oh, also loses to Fox due to having to be insanely precise because his dank sex kick is amazing.

Edit - Also lack of amazing vertical launchers and stuff but whatev.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Gonna remind everybody that even if you are really good we are still at a fairly moderate level of character development so I don't consider tourney placings very strong indicators of longer term viability
Saying we have X amount of diversity in the top 8s for the last few tournies is reflective only of the current level of development which leaves even top players to figure out how certain matchups are played for the first time on the fly. For example, I had never played a top level Ike before Ally, and unless ally has played oracle, the reverse is true for him. There are any number of examples like that among the top 8s for any big event.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Her lack of reliable kills followups from her combos. Also no amazing sex kick. ZSS' recovery actually has a ton of mixup potential (pretty much only one out of the tether squad lol).

You can play around these things and do well-ish but it still hurts.

Oh, also loses to Fox due to having to be insanely precise because his dank sex kick is amazing.

Edit - Also lack of amazing vertical launchers and stuff but whatev.

Ehhh... This is half-right. Which describes a lot of what people say about ZSS.

I've half-jokingly referred to ZSS as an "up-down-left-right character" after hearing characters such as Marth called "up characters". She can pop you up, but eventually she wants to bring you down again. She can carry you across the stage, but usually only wants to do so to set up better combo/techchase opportunities/a kill confirm or edgeguard.

Paralyzer's kinda bad tbh. Which is not necessarily saying it needs to be good, I just don't think it has much of a place in her kit right now. Very situational.

Her recovery is fine balance-wise (pretty good actually), but forced tethers are really, really not fun if the opponent has a brain and even the tiniest bit of relevant matchup knowledge. Can't say I enjoy punishing them much either, not exactly what I'd call satisfying gameplay.

ZSS with a sex kick would be kind of silly, and she already has sexy kicks so it's cool.

She's not bad (~upper end of mid tier at this point, I'd say), other characters are just better and perhaps more refined. She's still pretty rough around the edges and maybe a bit unfocused. Her more "normal" moves have mostly reached a good place (a few things I'd like to experiment with such as a higher uair angle, possibly with KB adjustments, but she's getting there), but some of her more unique elements have suffered (upb doesn't work all that well right now, usmash needs a slightly reduced SDI multiplier and better launch angle, side-b and reverse fsmash could maybe use slight buffs, flipstool is utterly useless, tether mechanics are still dumb and uninteractive). Kind of the reverse of how it used to be, where many of those moves were good (or at least better than they are now), yet her normals had some issues. At least dsmash was reverted in 3.6, 7% damage was a joke.

3.5's overhaul left a bad taste for many, so she doesn't have as much representation these days. Wasn't exactly a popular character to begin with either. I'm still hoping to see the tether grab return in some form, given that it overall fits better with the playstyle I see her growing into and would promote more creativity/variety in her (slowly developing) techchase followups.

She's got great physics and the foundation is there, she just needs some TLC and she's widely misunderstood for lack of representation and meta development. A lot of her stuff I'd regard as BnB simply isn't out in the wild yet, or in some cases has been adversely affected by issues mentioned above.

 

[Deleted member]

you didn't SDI up once, you SDIed the 6th up-air to the right and that was it.

cam is my ****ing hero

that SDI was perfect imo lol

 

[Ripple]

yeah, it may have been good but its not what he kept saying he was doing /trying to do.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I notice the purple ribbon on Umbreon. Does that mean I have to start drunkenly yelling at you, too?

 

[Deleted member]

I want to be drunkenly yelled at. Please private message me immediately.

 

[Saproling]

Project TX

 

[Strong Badam]

Social thread is that way --->

 

[eideeiit]

Project ****posting devs

E: too late. Sorry

Anyhow, DF's post made me think a bit. To what phase of Melee's meta could we compare the current Pm charcters' metas the best? I know it's tough to say, but I feel like maybe Sonic and Olimar are still in the "general populace knows nothing" phase. Idk.

 

[InfinityCollision]

~'07-'08? Players have a rough idea of how to play their characters and the basics are mostly in place, but counterplay/matchup knowledge is lacking, gameplans are still evolving across the cast, and there's a certain lack of polish or refinement in play. Lots of things done poorly or just outright wrong, plenty of opportunity for characters to move around in the rankings.

 

[PlateProp]

People cite powershielding lasers as one of the ways to counter falco, thus making him less effective and lower on the tier list

What happens when Falco mains start powershielding powershielded lasers?

 

[Saproling]

People cite powershielding lasers as one of the ways to counter falco, thus making him less effective and lower on the tier list

What happens when Falco mains start powershielding powershielded lasers?

Why wouldn't they shine it back so its stronger?Oh wait never mind that not what thats used for.

 

[Bazkip]

People cite powershielding lasers as one of the ways to counter falco, thus making him less effective and lower on the tier list

What happens when Falco mains start powershielding powershielded lasers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis

 

[DrinkingFood]

Even if falco's learn to consistently return powershielded lasers, the laser's efficacy is dramatically reduced from NEITHER player power shielding, because:
At close distance, falco cannot ever return powershield because he experiences 4 frames landing lag from the laser plus any falling time depending on how high he shoots the laser. Lasers travel pretty far even in this small number of frames, so consistent power shielding from the opponent in the first place would remove his ability in neutral to convert directly off a laser via shine or grab.
At far distance, returning a powershield still forces falco to shield. Shield has more commitment to exit it than falco's typical 4 frames landing lag, the minimum being 15 (16 in PM) frame wavedash. He loses the option to return to DD, he loses much of his run moment that could have been converted into a jump so his next laser (OoS this time) gains less distance (same for an aerial). So basically you force falco to use lasers that have way more effective cooldown by requiring him to return the powershield

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Design wise it's better, but 3.5 was stronger in terms of power.

3.6 is MILES above 3.6b, but it's not quite 3.5 level. It discards a lot of 3.5 stuff in favor of what people consider to be better, more intuitive design. Also a bit more fun injected in, both to play as and to fight, in theory.

Seems to be working.

I mean what else could bowser really need? Aside from a reasonable approach option I mean? Everything else i really feel is pretty good, maybe a projectile or approach or a way to get out of combos sooner, but really. Everything else is pretty good feeling so far.

you know what actually is a useful tip? listening to people who tell you you didn't do something correctly and then going into the lab to practice it.
btw here you go if you want to look at this frame by frame

you didn't SDI up once, you SDIed the 6th up-air to the right and that was it.

Also I really think DK's lack of air speed and Bad ability to DI (size, maybe its not actually 18 degrees, whatever) didnt do him any favors though

 

[themaziest]

Hey I don't belong in Nausicaa-tier of Smash' design philosophy but what if... yeah another what if suggestion from a random player... what if spacies had to reload their blaster after a while, like Snake's Tranquilizer? Fox would be limited to say 12-15 lasers before reloading his weapon, hence it would force the player to be less braindead and more smart basically.

Spamming lasers without thinking about it would allow an opening for the opponent to interact and punish during the loading. Blaster could always force an approach but not constantly in the game. Maybe spacies could also fully reload the blaster anytime via a taunt between stocks, so you don't have to empty your charger into the void à la Scarface.

It doesn't solve everything magically but some matchups would be less silly nonetheless.

Reducing the damage, the range or the speed of the blaster is just an inefficient workaround for these characters imo.

 

[robosteven]

wait since when are lasers bad and easy to deal with

edit: olimar main nvm pay me no mind