difficult to determine exactly what a 'tier' has bearing on. 1on1 matchups are very tier dictated. if your choice of character is of a significantly higher tier than your opponent you gain a measurable edge. in multiplayer and doubles matches tier doesn't play as strong a role. in doubles because teams are often constructed to complement both differing playstyles and the deficits of each character on the team; as compared to selecting the character with most significant advantages and having two team-mates play essentially solo games. that said, multiplayer not in a team environment eventually comes down to 1on1 play, though i've seen a jigglypuff destroy a free-for-all environment more than once. as another example, donkey kong is often responsible for more stock damage in this format than any of the other 3 characters, and often those characters combined. to sum it all up, tier really depends upon what sort of match is being played.
-
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Tiers? (Include an explaination)
- Thread starter Nero
- Start date
greenblob
Smash Lord
Unless explicitly stated, it is assumed that tier discussions are about 1v1 matches on neutral stages using tournament legal rules.
moogle
Smash Ace
I'll throw out some numbers for the character matchup chart... just to get the arguments started. 
I'm no good with graphics... someone else can do that.
To read this: Jiggly has a 40% chance of winning against an equally skilled Pikachu.
jiggly vs
pikachu 40
kirby 45
ness 50
fox 40
falcon 45
mario 45
yoshi 55
dk 50
luigi 40
samus 45
link 60
pikachu vs
kirby 60
ness 65
fox 60
falcon 65
jiggly 60
mario 65
yoshi 65
dk 70
luigi 70
samus 70
link 80
fox vs
pikachu 40
kirby 40
ness 50
falcon 45
jiggly 60
mario 55
yoshi 55
dk 60
luigi 70
samus 75
link 70
kirby vs
pikachu 40
ness 60
fox 60
falcon 65
jiggly 55
mario 60
yoshi 60
dk 65
luigi 60
samus 65
link 75
That's only 4 of 12 characters... but it's a start. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am. :embarrass
I'm no good with graphics... someone else can do that.To read this: Jiggly has a 40% chance of winning against an equally skilled Pikachu.
jiggly vs
pikachu 40
kirby 45
ness 50
fox 40
falcon 45
mario 45
yoshi 55
dk 50
luigi 40
samus 45
link 60
pikachu vs
kirby 60
ness 65
fox 60
falcon 65
jiggly 60
mario 65
yoshi 65
dk 70
luigi 70
samus 70
link 80
fox vs
pikachu 40
kirby 40
ness 50
falcon 45
jiggly 60
mario 55
yoshi 55
dk 60
luigi 70
samus 75
link 70
kirby vs
pikachu 40
ness 60
fox 60
falcon 65
jiggly 55
mario 60
yoshi 60
dk 65
luigi 60
samus 65
link 75
That's only 4 of 12 characters... but it's a start. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am. :embarrass
Thino
Smash Master
errr... a chart would be better cause its not easy to read
moogle
Smash Ace
Any better? lol
....... | Pi Ki Ne Fo CF Ji Ma Yo DK Lu Sa Li
--------+------------------------------------
Pikachu | -- 60 65 60 65 60 65 65 70 70 70 80
Kirby.. | 40 -- 60 60 65 55 60 60 65 60 65 75
Ness... | xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx
Fox.... | 40 40 50 -- 45 60 55 55 60 70 75 70
Falcon. | xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx xx xx
Jiggly. | 40 45 50 40 45 -- 45 55 50 40 45 60
Mario.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx
Yoshi.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx
DK..... | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx
Luigi.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx
Samus.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx
Link... | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx --
....... | Pi Ki Ne Fo CF Ji Ma Yo DK Lu Sa Li
--------+------------------------------------
Pikachu | -- 60 65 60 65 60 65 65 70 70 70 80
Kirby.. | 40 -- 60 60 65 55 60 60 65 60 65 75
Ness... | xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx
Fox.... | 40 40 50 -- 45 60 55 55 60 70 75 70
Falcon. | xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx xx xx
Jiggly. | 40 45 50 40 45 -- 45 55 50 40 45 60
Mario.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx xx
Yoshi.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx xx
DK..... | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx xx
Luigi.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx xx
Samus.. | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx -- xx
Link... | xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx xx --
Thino
Smash Master
yea lol . as I thought Pika has pretty high stats..silly mouse
JustaPnoy
Smash Apprentice
sexy. gj moogle.
moogle
Smash Ace
Thanks JustaPnoy. 
I made a thread with my new table:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=99834
I made a thread with my new table:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=99834
If we are talking about 1 vs. 1 then here is my tier list:
God- Kirby
Top- Pikachu
Fox
High-Falcon
Ness
Mid- Mario
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Low- DK
Luigi
Bottom- Link
Samus
However, If you are doing a 2 vs. 2 than Ness moves up to the top of the Top Tier list, and in a free for all, (every man for himself if you guys ever do that) than Ness surpasses Kirby, simply b/c his up B becomes that much better when people are distracted.
God- Kirby
Top- Pikachu
Fox
High-Falcon
Ness
Mid- Mario
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Low- DK
Luigi
Bottom- Link
Samus
However, If you are doing a 2 vs. 2 than Ness moves up to the top of the Top Tier list, and in a free for all, (every man for himself if you guys ever do that) than Ness surpasses Kirby, simply b/c his up B becomes that much better when people are distracted.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
ness sucks in teams and ffa, dunoo what your smokin
JustaPnoy
Smash Apprentice
duhh boom he's talking about ffa/2v2 with noobs
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
ok so sit there then use your pk thunder to shoot yourself into them....ok got it
Thino
Smash Master
DK punch is superior in that case
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Samus' bombs outprioritize pk thunder kamikaze. Thats pretty sad. Then again her bombs are good. *Poot*, *poot*.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
top tier omgz: FOX, FALCON, MACHOKE
low tier: jigglypuff, electrobuzz, pikachu, abra
secret god tier: kirby, zapdos
low tier: jigglypuff, electrobuzz, pikachu, abra
secret god tier: kirby, zapdos
TJK1997
Smash Journeyman
Boom Speaks The Truth!
God Tier: Isai
Mortal Tier: Us
pretty much what i can come up with tiers for ssb 64
haha no for real though um
Top
Kirby- Ok i can't preach enough why this guy is number one, cheap spammable forward smash the ability to chase someone to any blastline and come back a combo spike and hard to kill because of his combo breaking Nair pokes. His throws are pretty much what keeps me from putting him in god tier
Pikachu- This bugger is a quick juggling unfair piece of shiz that can literally make people drop their controller start crying for a while then leave. He can follow you pretty far out hit you with his nair and then come back insta good bye. His F-smash is really good edgeguarding tool and pretty much if he gets you off thats a stock kiddo. Very sick throws to get the person off an edge.
High Tier
Ness- I didn't know whether he was good enough to be top and trust me his attacks are brilliant and his DJC is absolutely godly, its just his triple jump is easy to edgeguard that holds him back. I might edit this to put him in top tier but idk right now its just a toss up really.
Fox- Blaster spam with a stun and the fact that you have an insane amount of air control while shooting lasers makes him a formidable control opponent. He still has a brilliant up smash and he can combo generally well. His shine spike wasn't as broken as it is in melee but it is there and thats a big deal to have. Keeps him in high tier along with his good throws.
C Falcon- Really quick and just like he is in melee, a combo machine, he chains his attacks really well and moves really quick to keep the pressure on an opponent. His throws are good for combos well at least his down throw but none of them have huge kill potential holding him back from top tier.
Mid Tier
DK- Nasty throws that can be chained together, surprisingly quick Z-cancels and the giant punch that can be canceled and makes you floaty giving you extra chances to jump upwards well not up but ya know "float" DK is top of midtier imo
Mario- Mario categorizes mid tier with pretty much average everything. I really like his fireballs to help him back to the ledge however because he gets back by spamming them at you while you try and guard.
JigglyPuff- Floaty and poundhelp her recover from anything while she lives which is IMO what keeps her in Midtier. Otherwise she isn't that good because of her poor aerials that aren't as broken as in melee and the fact that her redeeming move Rest is incredibly hard to land in this game.
Yoshi- This was by far the hardest to place character since he is all over the place in different regards. For one because of his DJC he is a tank and that means that when you hit him at like 100 percent he still might not even move off the stage. However his throws are slow and aren't that good and his B moves are all terrible. His aerial game generally isn't that good and he is too slow to be any higher then mid.
Low Tier
Luigi- He isn't total crap but he doesn't have to many redeeming qualities. He doesn't have powerful moves and his projectile sucks out loud. But he has a decent throw and he has an ok combo into his Up B Super Uppercut thing.
Bottom
Samus- Crap throws and extremely slow, that pretty much means that she deserves bottom of the barrel. She's not all that good and her projectiles are laggy and dependable. Her aerials aren't good and i just don't like her roll at all. Can you say punishable? Definitely the bottom of the barrel if it wasn't for our good friend...
Link- Sweet segway i know... Ok seriously whats not to hate about this guy, sub par projectiles crappy recovery, crappy throw, extremely slow, big, no real stand out moves unless you count his see a mile away even if you were blind Z-canceled Dair. Links Verdict= Sucks
Thats my two cents and now i have carpel tunnel hehe
Mortal Tier: Us
pretty much what i can come up with tiers for ssb 64
haha no for real though um
Top
Kirby- Ok i can't preach enough why this guy is number one, cheap spammable forward smash the ability to chase someone to any blastline and come back a combo spike and hard to kill because of his combo breaking Nair pokes. His throws are pretty much what keeps me from putting him in god tier
Pikachu- This bugger is a quick juggling unfair piece of shiz that can literally make people drop their controller start crying for a while then leave. He can follow you pretty far out hit you with his nair and then come back insta good bye. His F-smash is really good edgeguarding tool and pretty much if he gets you off thats a stock kiddo. Very sick throws to get the person off an edge.
High Tier
Ness- I didn't know whether he was good enough to be top and trust me his attacks are brilliant and his DJC is absolutely godly, its just his triple jump is easy to edgeguard that holds him back. I might edit this to put him in top tier but idk right now its just a toss up really.
Fox- Blaster spam with a stun and the fact that you have an insane amount of air control while shooting lasers makes him a formidable control opponent. He still has a brilliant up smash and he can combo generally well. His shine spike wasn't as broken as it is in melee but it is there and thats a big deal to have. Keeps him in high tier along with his good throws.
C Falcon- Really quick and just like he is in melee, a combo machine, he chains his attacks really well and moves really quick to keep the pressure on an opponent. His throws are good for combos well at least his down throw but none of them have huge kill potential holding him back from top tier.
Mid Tier
DK- Nasty throws that can be chained together, surprisingly quick Z-cancels and the giant punch that can be canceled and makes you floaty giving you extra chances to jump upwards well not up but ya know "float" DK is top of midtier imo
Mario- Mario categorizes mid tier with pretty much average everything. I really like his fireballs to help him back to the ledge however because he gets back by spamming them at you while you try and guard.
JigglyPuff- Floaty and poundhelp her recover from anything while she lives which is IMO what keeps her in Midtier. Otherwise she isn't that good because of her poor aerials that aren't as broken as in melee and the fact that her redeeming move Rest is incredibly hard to land in this game.
Yoshi- This was by far the hardest to place character since he is all over the place in different regards. For one because of his DJC he is a tank and that means that when you hit him at like 100 percent he still might not even move off the stage. However his throws are slow and aren't that good and his B moves are all terrible. His aerial game generally isn't that good and he is too slow to be any higher then mid.
Low Tier
Luigi- He isn't total crap but he doesn't have to many redeeming qualities. He doesn't have powerful moves and his projectile sucks out loud. But he has a decent throw and he has an ok combo into his Up B Super Uppercut thing.
Bottom
Samus- Crap throws and extremely slow, that pretty much means that she deserves bottom of the barrel. She's not all that good and her projectiles are laggy and dependable. Her aerials aren't good and i just don't like her roll at all. Can you say punishable? Definitely the bottom of the barrel if it wasn't for our good friend...
Link- Sweet segway i know... Ok seriously whats not to hate about this guy, sub par projectiles crappy recovery, crappy throw, extremely slow, big, no real stand out moves unless you count his see a mile away even if you were blind Z-canceled Dair. Links Verdict= Sucks
Thats my two cents and now i have carpel tunnel hehe
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Link has super par projectiles. Probably only mario's fireballs are better.
And Foxes Lasers... so that pretty much means that his only redeeming quality isn't the best in the game he's crap lol
rokimomi
Smash Lord
He's at least better than suckmus (samus)
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
so your saying fox sucks? LOLAnd Foxes Lasers... so that pretty much means that his only redeeming quality isn't the best in the game he's crap lol
No i'm saying link sucks, read my bigger post at the top i was referring to Link there super boom not fox
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 18,966
- NNID
- Johnknight1
- 3DS FC
- 3540-0575-1486
Link does suck, I'd know i main him in SSBM, lol. I main Kirby in SSB 64=godly! I think you rated Luigi too low KevinM, and there are a lot of good Luuigi players=he's like my 4th best. But other than that your list is almost dead on IMO=great job!
StealthECartman
Smash Apprentice
LMAOLMAOLMAO
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 18,966
- NNID
- Johnknight1
- 3DS FC
- 3540-0575-1486
LMAO that's funny!
Ultimate secret god tier:
:nes: < That's wat i'm talking about! Do we still need this thread stickied? No one posted the actual tier list until about page 10, and since then there hasn't been much talk on it.
ant-d
Smash Lord
There should be a stickied topic about tier discussion, whether it's this or a new one.
8_8
8_8
I think I may have to make a thread which has links to all the important threads on here...
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Like an index. That would be good, but make it obsenely obvious to noobs that they need to read it first before they ask questions about stuff that's up there.
Ok, I'll do that, thanks for the idea.
Keep my tier list, it seems to be fairly accurate in peoples opinions... noone really discussed or gave reasons to refute it... i took that from the opinions and just down right playability, i worked hard on it haha
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
I don't agree with ness at all, fox and falcon are clearly better
JustaPnoy
Smash Apprentice
Omg Meowderator
I finally started getting some ideas about tiers so I will throw my tier list in.
I tried. . .
1. to judge who's better and who's worse sorely by the moves of characters
2. to take off the skills of players that make some "bad" characters look good and that make some "good" characters look bad.
Top
1. Pikachu
2. Falcon
3. Fox
4. Kirby
High
5. Link
6. Ness
Middle
7. Jigglypuff
8. Yoshi
9. Mario
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. DK
No Bottom tier
--------------------------------------------------------------
Here is Redmario's Tier List based on SSB Japanese version that he made about 6 month ago. Just for the heck of it.
1. Falcon
2. Pikachu
3. Fox
4. Kirby
5. Link
6. Yoshi
7. Jiggly
8. Ness
9. Samus
10. Mario
11. Luigi
12. DK
I tried. . .
1. to judge who's better and who's worse sorely by the moves of characters
2. to take off the skills of players that make some "bad" characters look good and that make some "good" characters look bad.
Top
1. Pikachu
2. Falcon
3. Fox
4. Kirby
High
5. Link
6. Ness
Middle
7. Jigglypuff
8. Yoshi
9. Mario
10. Samus
11. Luigi
12. DK
No Bottom tier
--------------------------------------------------------------
Here is Redmario's Tier List based on SSB Japanese version that he made about 6 month ago. Just for the heck of it.
1. Falcon
2. Pikachu
3. Fox
4. Kirby
5. Link
6. Yoshi
7. Jiggly
8. Ness
9. Samus
10. Mario
11. Luigi
12. DK
I just found this site, and one of the first things I saw was the "generally accepted tier list" and I have a few criticisms. I consider myself a highly advanced smash player and I assumed I would find others of comparable skill here. While I'm sure there are some very good players on this board, their credibility is suspect because of the list they have allowed to be accepted.
Anyone who puts Samus in the low level has no right to think that they are good at smash, I would expect this from a noobie, but if you think you are good and that Samus is in the low level , then you have A LOT to about smash. The same goes for Yoshi. Although I understand where this would come from, Samus is one of the hardest to master, so few see his true skill.
Samus is if not the best then in the top two or three. It seems that somehow the people around here have failed to notice this. I will agree that Samus at a bit of a disadvantage in a one on one match with Kirby, Ness or Pickachu just because of speed (though still top 5). There is no doubt that Samus is the best for team games. Samus' best attack is his up B, the spinning second jump. This attack is borderline cheating and is probably the best in the game. It can be done nearly instantaneously from the ground or the air and there is no defense (rolling and shielding can only go so far against an instantaneous move). Furthermore, the duration of this move is also ridiculously good, especially in teams were a few seconds can mean the difference between saving your partner and watching him get killed by an opponent sitting on the edge. That move is just insane, but beyond that Samus has other great moves, namely his gun. Though not as useful in one on one, if Samus can find the time to charge it frequently it can be devastating. His other moves all have good power, especially the aerial overhead kick, but the only other move worth mentioning is the bomb drop. This is amazingly useful if used properly. The drop so fast and cause enough delay to the person hit that Samus can easily begin many different combos. However perhaps even more importantly the bombs allow Samus to have survival abilities comparable to Kirby and Pickachu. For starters he is much harder to hit off than them, which is part of it, but if Samus gets knocked way off the stage (it doesn't work if he gets hit directly sideways), every time he releases a bomb he floats for a moment. Done repeatedly, dropping bombs changes the trajectory that Samus comes back at, making it much more horizontal than the standard floating direction.
If you think that I am just spouting off about Samus because he is my character, you are wrong I play all serious games with Pickachu, however I have seen firsthand the power of Samus, one of my friends has mastered him and is at no disadvantage playing against Pickachu, Kirby, Ness, and Yoshi (the only other top tier characters).
I will say that Samus has one of the highest learning curves, on par with Ness, but once mastered he can become extremely deadly. I hope I have changed a few minds, because in order to achieve mastery of smash one must not ignore one of the top 3 characters. (Anyone who still disputes this still, needs only to play against a someone who has mastered Samus. If you are near the University of Kansas, and still don't believe my friend would be willing to enlighten you, and take however much money you would be willing to wager.)
Anyone who puts Samus in the low level has no right to think that they are good at smash, I would expect this from a noobie, but if you think you are good and that Samus is in the low level , then you have A LOT to about smash. The same goes for Yoshi. Although I understand where this would come from, Samus is one of the hardest to master, so few see his true skill.
Samus is if not the best then in the top two or three. It seems that somehow the people around here have failed to notice this. I will agree that Samus at a bit of a disadvantage in a one on one match with Kirby, Ness or Pickachu just because of speed (though still top 5). There is no doubt that Samus is the best for team games. Samus' best attack is his up B, the spinning second jump. This attack is borderline cheating and is probably the best in the game. It can be done nearly instantaneously from the ground or the air and there is no defense (rolling and shielding can only go so far against an instantaneous move). Furthermore, the duration of this move is also ridiculously good, especially in teams were a few seconds can mean the difference between saving your partner and watching him get killed by an opponent sitting on the edge. That move is just insane, but beyond that Samus has other great moves, namely his gun. Though not as useful in one on one, if Samus can find the time to charge it frequently it can be devastating. His other moves all have good power, especially the aerial overhead kick, but the only other move worth mentioning is the bomb drop. This is amazingly useful if used properly. The drop so fast and cause enough delay to the person hit that Samus can easily begin many different combos. However perhaps even more importantly the bombs allow Samus to have survival abilities comparable to Kirby and Pickachu. For starters he is much harder to hit off than them, which is part of it, but if Samus gets knocked way off the stage (it doesn't work if he gets hit directly sideways), every time he releases a bomb he floats for a moment. Done repeatedly, dropping bombs changes the trajectory that Samus comes back at, making it much more horizontal than the standard floating direction.
If you think that I am just spouting off about Samus because he is my character, you are wrong I play all serious games with Pickachu, however I have seen firsthand the power of Samus, one of my friends has mastered him and is at no disadvantage playing against Pickachu, Kirby, Ness, and Yoshi (the only other top tier characters).
I will say that Samus has one of the highest learning curves, on par with Ness, but once mastered he can become extremely deadly. I hope I have changed a few minds, because in order to achieve mastery of smash one must not ignore one of the top 3 characters. (Anyone who still disputes this still, needs only to play against a someone who has mastered Samus. If you are near the University of Kansas, and still don't believe my friend would be willing to enlighten you, and take however much money you would be willing to wager.)
Thino
Smash Master
1) Samus is a girl
2) the spinning second jump can be DI'ed out of , and severly punished
3) the bomb drop is effective but doesnt prevent her from being easily edgeguardable and thus not comparable with Pika or Kirby anytime
4) don't get me wrong I've played two or three very good Samuses , they were generally like dair->bair , or dair->nair, laying bombs and fsmashing to prevent approaches
5) remember skillz>tiers, Samus being at the bottom doesnt mean no Samus can ever beat a Pika , you should also think about the fact your friend is better than you at smash
6) you should be modest , it doesnt hurt
2) the spinning second jump can be DI'ed out of , and severly punished
3) the bomb drop is effective but doesnt prevent her from being easily edgeguardable and thus not comparable with Pika or Kirby anytime
4) don't get me wrong I've played two or three very good Samuses , they were generally like dair->bair , or dair->nair, laying bombs and fsmashing to prevent approaches
5) remember skillz>tiers, Samus being at the bottom doesnt mean no Samus can ever beat a Pika , you should also think about the fact your friend is better than you at smash
6) you should be modest , it doesnt hurt
MarioReincarnate
Smash Journeyman
@JGage - Just about everyone that comes here lives at most 78 ms from the University of Kansas. Play online, and don't be surprised if you and your friends get 4- or 5-stocked. I thought I was sick wit' it about 10 months ago before I played online, and I'm still picking up my shattered ego off the floor.
Who knows, maybe you are actually legit... but Thino's 1st point raises an eyebrow as to your skill. Play online (look at the stickied threads), though, because it's fun.
Oh, and if you lose, lose gracefully, and take it as an opportunity to improve, not a chance to accuse the other people of hacking or cheating like so many people online do these days. I hope to see you online.
-MR
Who knows, maybe you are actually legit... but Thino's 1st point raises an eyebrow as to your skill. Play online (look at the stickied threads), though, because it's fun.
Oh, and if you lose, lose gracefully, and take it as an opportunity to improve, not a chance to accuse the other people of hacking or cheating like so many people online do these days. I hope to see you online.
-MR
SmashThugZ
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2006
- Messages
- 422
Well, first off, Samus is low, no doubt. Just because one person has mastered Samus doesn't mean she gets to jump up to the top of the list.
Secondly, Samus' "combo" is aerial down+A then aerial back+A. She, unlike all the other characters, do not possess the ability to chain link all of her attacks, although with some bad DI and misuse of teching from your opponent, sometimes you'd hit them a lot
The first quote hurt; I thought myself to be pretty good and I thought the "generally accepted tier list" was pretty good too. No one here can see what your skills are like just by reading these posts of yours.
The best thing for you to do would be to invest in a PC controller, or that n64/ps adapter from ebay, set yourself up with the emulator and rom, and play online with all these other talented players.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
I hate it when people start throwing around "mastered" in their "factual" statements about the character.
In no way does stating your friend has mastered suckmas make your statement anymore true. In fact, it brings up a sort of cocky arrogance in your tone, that you have finalized your statement and no longer see any other side to the story. Get online, and try samus against good people. Don't even try your best. It only takes a little dose of what people can do to realize the facts.
Yoshi's not top tier either. Seems like he should be though.
In no way does stating your friend has mastered suckmas make your statement anymore true. In fact, it brings up a sort of cocky arrogance in your tone, that you have finalized your statement and no longer see any other side to the story. Get online, and try samus against good people. Don't even try your best. It only takes a little dose of what people can do to realize the facts.