Tired of the camping in Brawl? A way to deal with it.

[Sculelos]

I can already beat campers. Just roll when they projectile and eventually you will get close enough to force them to make an attack then from then on it's just who can land an attack first.

I personally don't have any problems with people camping when I play online and I've played around 40 people on Smashboards. Some of them where REALLY good but none of the awesome players camped, they kept a good offensive pressure going and hit at every good opportunity.

Just learn to adapt, Brawl's meta game is soo much different then Melee that if you treat it as such you can find a adaptable strategy.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Landmaster is bull****, anyone who says otherwise needs to gtfo

But camping is easy to get around; you just camp as well. Whoever has the most patience wins.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's not true. Nabbing the smashball is easier to do by camping with projectiles than it is to go for it. Trying to physically go and hit the smash ball puts yourself at risk. If I'm camping as someone like zelda vs. bowser, the bowser will never get a chance as he goes to jump for it, I detonate a Din's Fire. I either nab it, or knock it away and can follow up with just another Din's Fire. You might say then that bowser should interrupt me first- but I'm camping, remember? If he's approaching me we're right back to square one.

Smashballs take several hits to break depending on how strong it is. Right as Bowser goes for it you'll ahve to wait until he hits it.
During which when he hits it the thing will go over to the other side.
Then you can't advantage and use it.
however seeing as Bowser isn't a good example how about Sonic.
You sure as eck are not gonna get the smashball if you're camping agaisnt Sonic.

Not to mention, literally the landmaster's, especially Falco's, can quite possibly get two KOs in one final smash.

So can Sonic's your point?

Get someone above the landmaster and move horizontally with their attempts to get off it while you hover off the stage.

you're funny..
That doesn't work. Ever.
Why?
*points at big blue*
Even if they move in the same direction you're still moving along them.
Only an idiot gets KO'ed by the landmaster twice.

Since people start "above" on the return platform, after getting one KO from the landmaster in any way, having the ability to take out a second stock drastically supports a mindset of "run away and camp until the smashball comes around". Camping at a distance with a projectile is THE safest and most reliable way to get a smashball, and smashballs dominate stock, why would anyone do anything else?

It's the safest but worst way because no projectile can break the smashball in one hit. You have to wait for your opponent to hit it first and by the time you're setting up to do that I can just take advantage of your lack of attention and hit you.
Who the heck tries to hit the smashball before the camper hits it anyway?
in general you should let someone else hit it and THEN hit it so that you can get the FS.
That and teh fact projectiles are relatively weak means they aren't gauranteed to break the ball when its been hit already.

Lastly, you say "most of the cast doesn't have the speed or the combo ability to keep pressure on the camper" and that they auto-lose. That's just wrong. Every character can deal with campers. Maybe there isn't the combos, but the ability to pressure is certainly there.

Ike? No.
Link? No
Bowser? no
Ganandorf? No
Olimar? No He can't go agro without getting muffed.
Zelda? No.
PT? only squirtle can.

Someone pass me a character list I can't remember everyone.

Simply put, if you aren't fast, can't combo means you can't control spacing or the flow of the game that well. Which means its an autolose.

If you aren't Sonic, Wolf, Falco, Fox,Sheik, Marth, MK you aren't going to approach a camper very easily.
If anything you might as well suicide because by the time you get to the camper you've taken a good amount of damage.

 

[Eten]

There are very few attacks which can break open a smashball instantly. However, when they are hit, a smashball is sent flying. Any lucas or Zelda or Pit or falco with a good projectile will be able to describe to you how easy it is for them to nab a smashball, well beyond even fast characters like Sonic. I'll use Zelda, again, because she has a good finalsmash, has a projectile and is a good representation of a character who can camp quite a bit. Din's Fire can do up to 16% damage- for something so ranged and controllable, that dominates smash ball grabbing. More importantly, there is so little risk to getting a smashball like this. Given that if the smashball is hit but not broken, it gets sent flying, leaving many characters, including sonic, in a wild chase frequently with the use of full jumps. Comparatively, even weak damage Falco lasers are more reliable, safe, and controllable methods to obtain a smash ball, as it lets you repeatedly aim for the smash ball, safe from punishment, from afar.

Link
Olimar
Zelda
Ivysaur
can all camp, in fact some of those listed are some of the best campers. Try playing an Olimar Ditto, or a link vs. Zelda match, and see how the mix up of projectiles and mindgaming makes up an approach game. Bowser, Ike, Charizard, some of the biggest and heaviest characters who can trade % and still win, all have approach options, like quickdraw, or more luigi-like projectile swatting approaches with superiority at medium-close range for approaches. For example, Charizard has one of the longest range if not the longest range grab in the game, along with long distance tilts and aerials. Ganondorf, I am unsure of.

And I'm sorry, but please double check on the landmaster aspect. It's true. The mechanics don't work the same way as other moving platforms- it's goofy physics but it's the reason why the landmaster hover is the faster and most reliable method to kill people with.

"very easily" is relative. A character having an advantage by forcing another character to approach because one has projectiles and can camp with them while the other does not sincerely does not mean it will be an autolose. You list a few and say that only they can do it. But that list misses characters like Luigi(tornado), Mario(cape,fireballs), G&W(bucket, turtle, and fishbowl), Pikachu(size, speed), Wario(bike, aerial mobility), Captain Falcon(speed), Kirby(size, and more), and others. To me, your list doesn't do much but actually reflect your lack of knowledge in approach game, which would result in an overestimation of camping. Truly, if camping were so effective, how can a character like DK be doing well in tournaments?
-A crazy glide toss against anybody with items
-Extremely powerful options out of shield
-Double bair approaches
-Ftilt approaches
etc. all let him handle the campers when we're talking GOOD players.

 

[fkacyan]

Lol@camping

Mindgames work both ways.

 

[The_NZA]

Maybe since the learning curve in Brawl is easier, and the characters are easier to master, it might be a good idea to get good with multiple characters, so when someone picks a spammer, at the very least you can counter pick (if you lose the first match). I heard Zelda is a good Spammer slayer. Also, Oli isn't bad since he can forward smash and let his pikmin take hits while he aproaches.

 

[DwaynBibad]

I already said my piece about Smashballs, I honestly suggest those people tired of the current metagame go out and try it for yourselves. The truth is that majority of players have already made up their mind about Smashball usage in competitive play, and that's just fine, if they prefer the metagame the way it is now so be it.

I honestly can't stand this fear propaganda about it though, I suggest those people that are dull of the current metagame go ahead and try fighting with Smashballs yourself, and not listen to the people that already enjoy the camping metagame. I guarantee isn't not nearly as bad as a lot of people say it is, and you might agree that it's an improvement overall to chasing a player around the ring for 6 1/2min.

If everyone was happy the way Brawl metagame has turned out then this thread wouldn't exist. I'm sure that there are those that agree that fighting campers, win or lose, just isn't fun. Is it possible to get inside a camper with mindgames? Yes, is it possible to punish campers? Yes, is there a way to keep the pressure on campers long enough to stop them camping? NO. Once that player gets out of range, the camping and the headaches begin once more.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about spacing or zoning or any advanced strategies like that. I'm talking about straight up, standing in one spot all day and spamming whatever projectile you have, 'til New Years.
My argument here is that this style of play is going to dominate high level play, and beating a camper isn't gonna stop them from camping, they will just camp harder next time, if only because it's the easiest (best?) way to score wins in this game.

I'm content that nobody is knocking the fun/competitiveness of 2v2 Brawl Matches at least.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda dominates any game with smashballs... simple as that. Her FS is one of the best for an instant KO, though it falls short of the awesomeness of Super sonic or fox/falco landmasters (not wolf's). But Din's fire is a GREAT smashball opener.... if not the best.

And, zelda is actually a rather poor camper. Her din's fire is easy to predict and dodge. HOWEVER, it works fantastically in other situations... but definitely not as a camping device.

Link is an excellent camper, but has enough other shortcomings that it doesn't matter a whole lot. Toon link, on the other hand, might not have the same projectile strength as link, but his strength in other areas makes him a camping beast. However, not much will ever be able to compete with the likes of snake, or pit in camping.

regardless, the point is, you shouldn't lose to a pit just because you hav to take 50% or so damage from palutena's arrows before you can even reach him... and the fact that he's not eactly bad at hand to hand makes the situation even worse, since he can just hit you away and then camp again. It's not even like you can counter camp him with, say, toon link, or anything, because palutena's arrow is quicker than ANY of your projectiles.

And snake, true, he doesn't have the speed or distance of pit's arrows on his side, but his projectiles pack massive kick, make the stage like a deathtrap and cause you to be unable to concentrate on snake and snake alone... which wouldn't be so bad, but snake is incredible in other areas. Including being VERY heavy, VERY strong and having a VERY versitile recovery. Sometimes I wonder if they thought about balance when they made certain characters.

It just sucks so much when an essentially skilless tactic allows you to have a commanding upper hand. Makes you want franklin badges to be turned on.

 

[Dynomite]

honestly, i dont camp all the time but i do sometimes when i use fox or falco and i abuse their b move for idk about 5 hits but i dont use it over and over again and again. but i love it when my opponent camps.. let me tell you.. when they camp that just sais that they are afraid of you, they know they cant win. so what i do is i usually go on a platform where they cant get me and just mess around. if i am on a flat surface like final destination i crouch, many people dont use the crouching alot in brawl cuz they took out crouch canceling but it works. for example, i was fighting my friend the other day and he was using falco and i was using ike on pokemon stadium 2, he kept running to the other side and kept using his b move, i got on platforms and did some mindgames making him to dodge into me and, BOOM got 1 hit off of him, that is all you need.. 1 hit even with the slowest characters, if you get that 1 hit off it will take the person about 5 seconds to get it together and start the camping again, dont let that happon. rush after you get that 1 hit.

alwase works for me =] <3 campers, when they camp... i win

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

honestly, i dont camp all the time but i do sometimes when i use fox or falco and i abuse their b move for idk about 5 hits but i dont use it over and over again and again. but i love it when my opponent camps.. let me tell you.. when they camp that just sais that they are afraid of you, they know they cant win. so what i do is i usually go on a platform where they cant get me and just mess around. if i am on a flat surface like final destination i crouch, many people dont use the crouching alot in brawl cuz they took out crouch canceling but it works. for example, i was fighting my friend the other day and he was using falco and i was using ike on pokemon stadium 2, he kept running to the other side and kept using his b move, i got on platforms and did some mindgames making him to dodge into me and, BOOM got 1 hit off of him, that is all you need.. 1 hit even with the slowest characters, if you get that 1 hit off it will take the person about 5 seconds to get it together and start the camping again, dont let that happon. rush after you get that 1 hit.

alwase works for me =] <3 campers, when they camp... i win

Um,
A) yes, you can still crouch cancel... sakurai even admitted it.
B) most characters can't duck under the projestiles of most campers.
c) the campers you are playing against just sound like they suck.

 

[Irondrac666]

Campers were a problem in melee as well. Smash bros is just one of those games where even a rookie can play decently, that's the magic of smash, it can appeal to both casual and hardcore people. I feel that campers are casual players, most hardcore players shield, and dodge more. So while campers are annoying, just remember to keep cool and dodge like crazy until you get within striking distance. When your in range just do a quick attack, to whittle away their health, it should start annoying them and they may lose their camper style and go all out, if and when they do that, give em hell.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Campers were a problem in melee as well. Smash bros is just one of those games where even a rookie can play decently, that's the magic of smash, it can appeal to both casual and hardcore people. I feel that campers are casual players, most hardcore players shield, and dodge more. So while campers are annoying, just remember to keep cool and dodge like crazy until you get within striking distance. When your in range just do a quick attack, to whittle away their health, it should start annoying them and they may lose their camper style and go all out, if and when they do that, give em hell.

that may be well and good, but the problem arises when the person camping isn't a n00b. the person is someone who is about as good as you in their own right.... then, that's when all of the sudden camping shifts the balance.

 

[fopho]

Zelda dominates any game with smashballs... simple as that. Her FS is one of the best for an instant KO, though it falls short of the awesomeness of Super sonic or fox/falco landmasters (not wolf's). But Din's fire is a GREAT smashball opener.... if not the best.

And, zelda is actually a rather poor camper. Her din's fire is easy to predict and dodge. HOWEVER, it works fantastically in other situations... but definitely not as a camping device.

Link is an excellent camper, but has enough other shortcomings that it doesn't matter a whole lot. Toon link, on the other hand, might not have the same projectile strength as link, but his strength in other areas makes him a camping beast. However, not much will ever be able to compete with the likes of snake, or pit in camping.

regardless, the point is, you shouldn't lose to a pit just because you hav to take 50% or so damage from palutena's arrows before you can even reach him... and the fact that he's not eactly bad at hand to hand makes the situation even worse, since he can just hit you away and then camp again. It's not even like you can counter camp him with, say, toon link, or anything, because palutena's arrow is quicker than ANY of your projectiles.

And snake, true, he doesn't have the speed or distance of pit's arrows on his side, but his projectiles pack massive kick, make the stage like a deathtrap and cause you to be unable to concentrate on snake and snake alone... which wouldn't be so bad, but snake is incredible in other areas. Including being VERY heavy, VERY strong and having a VERY versitile recovery. Sometimes I wonder if they thought about balance when they made certain characters.

It just sucks so much when an essentially skilless tactic allows you to have a commanding upper hand. Makes you want franklin badges to be turned on.

Zelda's Din's fire is predictable, but if someone sidesteps it or airdodges it from afar then the explosion is bigger and if the zelda ur plying noes ur going to sidestep/airdodge then he/she can stall the Din's fire to make it hit. Its just how well ur guessing games or "mindgames" are and getting to zelda and punishing her for being such a stationary player haha.

Anyway I think that don't think of playing of a camper as annoying. When I play my friend who loves to camp and be defensive : O, but I find it fun and challenging playing him because its just a playing style. Playing ppl of different styles makes plying other ppl fun. If u want to ply someone that doesn't camp then ply a lvl 1-9 computer. I beat they won't camp unless they get sick of losing to u : D

 

[Jimiisama]

"Camping" is a "problem" in most fighting games (particularly fast paced ones where you have a large area to move around and consequently moves that take up a lot of zone). The Keep-Away vs Rushdown theme is a staple theme in any fighting game, and really shouldn't be complained about. Keep-away is annoying; it's designed to be annoying, and that's why people play it. It's generally easier to pick up than rushdown (not always the case), and it can pay off with minimal effort (not always the case). Hell, watch a Super Turbo match with O. Sagat... tiger, tiger, tiger, etc... I guess people can call someone scrubby for doing it, but if it works, then it works, and you really can't blame someone for doing something that works. I guess it could make the game less fun, but being frustrated makes me want to play the game even more (I'm masochistic with games like that).

 

[Nasanieru]

Campers were a problem in melee as well. Smash bros is just one of those games where even a rookie can play decently, that's the magic of smash, it can appeal to both casual and hardcore people.

In Brawl I'd agree but in Melee an experienced player could **** a n00b camper with absolutely no problem at all. A rookie in Melee stands little chance against an advanced player. When my friends had no knowledge of advanced Melee I could 4 stock 0-25% them consistently. In Brawl its way different, like your above description.



Great thread Dark.Pch, as always.
As a Peach main I know you just have to know how to approach well etc, but in Brawl its really hard and tedious. . .

 

[lismore]

Personally, I haven't had a problem with camping when playing with my friends because, although we're all very aware its the best option purely from the 'I must win this match' perspective, we want to have fun as well as be competitive (as in Melee, which we all, sadly, still prefer to play in competitive 1v1s) and consequently play our usual attacking styles which have carried over from melee. We also implement a 5 second 'douche penalty' when the common consensus is that one person has been camping to such an extent that it's annoying the hell out of everyone, at which point someone not playing that match will remove the offender's controller for 5 seconds, then plug it back in (i.e. almost automatic death). Perhaps this could be the way forward in professional tournaments lol, but seriously its online, where there's often a 1/2 - 1 second button lag anyway, where getting past camping Toon Links, ROBs, Ikes, Dededes, Pits, etc goes from annoying to unbearable. Unless there's something big discovered AT-wise (I'm more hopeful than truely optimistic atm) I think competitive 1v1s in brawl will become increasingly unpopular to play and to watch (just find me one entertaining youtube brawl vid that involves two GOOD campers - now compare to any top melee 1v1 vid and you'll see what I mean). I am, however, much more optimistic about the 2v2 future of brawl (I won't say why here, there are other threads for that). I'll probably get flamed for condemning competitive 1v1 brawl so early after the game's release (hell, you seem to for saying anything on these boards, hence 1st post!), but I assure you i'm fully aware of the arguments from both sides. I REALLY want it to succeed but right now, 2v2 seems like the only realistic hope. People hung up on the competitive side can also forget (as I do sometimes) that Brawl is fantastic for mucking around 4v4 with items on and crazy stuff happening. My friends who didn't play Melee competitively love it just because Snake's in it for heaven's sakes ('SNAAAAKE!'). Anyways, i'm just rambling now, let's just all pray for that gamebreaking AT!

 

[AkaiDoesDallas]

that douche penalty should be in the rulebook for tournys

 

[Mr Mattastic]

I personally love playing against most campers because they help me fill up my bucket fast, especially Zeldas and Pits

 

[jsjolin260]

Campers are just an annoyance to be dealt with. It's is all about avoiding and approaching. All campers have a weakness. Sometimes it is in the moves, the blocking, or even how the stage changes. The key is timing. Until the time is right, it is annoying, yes, but in free for all, consider this player part of the environment and have them to damage your foes. When they get too lacks and feel safe, take advantage then.

 

[boom-man97]

this could save me a multitude of humiliating defeats

 

[BokutoGuy]

As a wolf main I just wait for them to stop because I can hold up my reflector forever.

 

[Spiral]

Camping is a pretty common tactic when a community is just learning a game. As people advance and learn methods will develop to deal with campers.

It's just like RTS games, newbies will often try to camp+tech and this strategy works until people learn how to scout, when to attack, and what to attack with.

All I'm saying is, give it some time. You're all praising melee over brawl but the community had much more time to develop strategies for that game.

I can't say I've had a problem with campers so far.

Edit: I don't know if you guys are playing with items off or what, but items are a pretty easy way to deal with campers.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Edit: I don't know if you guys are playing with items off or what, but items are a pretty easy way to deal with campers.

Best items to deal with campers are Franklin Badge and Mr. Saturn. Most of the other items encourage camping, especially Smash balls.

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T8LTkqYFcd0

THIS is how you get past CAMPING.

POWER SHIELDING.

 

[Esca]

This thread is dumb.

 

[DMG]

This thread is dumb.

And your post has contributed SO MUCH to this thread.

Honestly I think that camping is certainly a turn away factor for 1 vs 1 matches but not so annoying or influencial that people will wanna switch to 2 vs 2 or FFA instead. Hopefully as time goes on there will be plenty of anti-camping strategies to use once people get a good grasp of the game.

 

[Gill]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T8LTkqYFcd0

THIS is how you get past CAMPING.

POWER SHIELDING.

That totally rocked.

Too bad its not viable online. :|

 

[Archaic]

Well I dont know if this will help anyone, but I have a camper friend who "mains" Zelda and Pit, so you can imagine Din's Fire, Din's Fire, Din's Fire...Arrow, Arrow, Arrow... So I took the easy way out. I also main Lucas now . Against other campy characters like Olimar and Toon Link where you cant absorb their projectiles, I take the advice from this thread and play either Peach or Lucario. Float and Foxtrot rock for getting inside a camper. Not to say you guys should all main Lucas, Lucario, and Peach, but thats just what i did.

 

[Jimiisama]

Run a little... Sheild... Run a little... Sheild... I mean seriously; it's frustrating but it's not that bad. You get closer, little by little. You can only run as far back as the edge, and you should be able to punish him if he tries to cross over. After that, you just gotta keep up the rushdown pressure. I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not going into any major depth, but that's basically how it's gotta be done.

 

[berserker515]

yea power shielding and side stepping is really hard to execute at the right time online. beating my camper friend irl is cake compared to facing him online.

my anti camping solution is just not to play them.(online anyways)

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'm going to say that people's best bet to counter camping is to try something that they haven't tried before. You aren't going to learn anything if you just do the same exact thing your opponent is doing and hope his patience wears down before yours.

 

[thx]

okay camping is seriously gay for ike it seems like everytime i go to a tourny i win the first match then they resort to camping i dont always loose but its hard to get around camping in teams i was facing a team (im not gonan say wat team) but they had a pit that ONLY camped i couldnt do a **** thing chase him out he glides underneath ike is slow limited due to the time he attacks and how far out he can go idk wat to do

 

[GTR!]

Im with you

edit: powersielding is hella good btw

i just might need to learn that some time soon /sarcasm

but for real powersield is ****

 

[Jimiisama]

Some characters are always going to have trouble against keepaway characters; that's why we have counterpicks. If you lose to a keepaway because your character can't deal with it, then switch characters for the next match. Keepaway is a natural part of every fighting game, and in every fighting game people learn to deal with it (or they just join the club.. yeah Marvel, I'm looking at you!).

 

[DwaynBibad]

I personally think that Brawl's powershielding encouraged the camping aspect instead of detering it. If you remember in Melee, powershielding would instantly reflect back all projectile attacks that hit it. Lord knows why they took that out, but we definitely wouldn't be having this discussion if they had left it back in.

Anyway Wolf does sound like a perfect anti-camping character. I know all the space animals have reflectors, Peach, Pit, Game & Watch, err, I can't recall the rest as I'm sleepy.

Would you say that these are anti-camping characters?

Also there's crawling, but it's not an anti-camping measure since it's so slow.

 

[neo_sporin]

anti-camping explained
counterpick luigis mansion? On the stage forum a lot of people say ban mansion because it kills projectile play....then over here everyone complains about the projectile campers...oh the circles of doom.
and yes that does mean they will counterpick back to FD or something and then boom youre dead...but at least in the mean time you can make them feel the pain of inability to camp.

 

[hizzlum]

stages really help against campers, so neutrals like battlefield, yohsi's island (ssbb), and lylat cruise let you get to campers by platforms and not get hit. Your in trouble if a camper goes on FD...

 

[MoldinMindz]

Smash veterans don't camp and have fun playing brawl in a competitive manner. Also, those veterans would destroy any camper by simply playing the game well. If you are new to the smash series and are complaining about camping just be patient and get better. Camping will not dominate over a skilled player in Brawl. Playing a camper is like playing a boss on an old mega man game, eventually you will break through and win. You will improve your skill at a greater rate than someone who camps.

 

[Najin]

Smash veterans don't camp and have fun playing brawl in a competitive manner. Also, those veterans would destroy any camper by simply playing the game well. If you are new to the smash series and are complaining about camping just be patient and get better. Camping will not dominate over a skilled player in Brawl. Playing a camper is like playing a boss on an old mega man game, eventually you will break through and win. You will improve your skill at a greater rate than someone who camps.

I agree that skilled players will eventually beat out camping, however talking about camping is a way to reach that stage. "blah blah blah ban camping blah blah" is not what we should be doing. The more discussions we have about camping, even with all the complaints, the better we will be against campers. Camping won't just magically disappear. We can't just sit here waiting for it to disappear. We need to come up with strategies and other tactics to overcome it, and the only way to do that is talk about it. Also, I'm pretty sure most smash veterans will remember when melee had camping as well. They probably would have trouble with good campers when they first started playing brawl. We don't have the strategies to defend against good campers yet.

What I'm trying to say is discussion is good and complaining is good (to a certain extent), because that's how the game evolves.

 

[Meta Ryu]

Air dodging works quite well now.

Short hop air dodge, short hop air dodge. If you use it at the right times while moving towards your opponent you'll close the distanc quite quickly and effectively before kicking their camper ***.