To Those Who Favor Brawl, Let's Finally Admit It...

[Skler]

Absolutely not.

The thing with WDing... took Melee's running and tossed it out the window... WDing into fsmashes, WDbackwards for better spaced fsmashes, making slow characters fast...

You just proved that you're not knowledgeable about Melee by saying that. Not dashing because you can WD is stupid, Dashing is faster (unless you're Luigi, ICs, Mario/Doc Mario or M2), lets you dash dance and you can still do things out of it (JC usmash, crouch -> anything, DAC grab, JC grab, etc). You have a very limited knowledge of Melee if you think dashing is useless.

@ people saying Brawl is more balanced, wait until you play a Snake or a MK that doesn't suck. I love how balanced those two are.

 

[battousai555]

You just proved that you're not knowledgeable about Melee by saying that. Not dashing because you can WD is stupid, Dashing is faster (unless you're Luigi, ICs, Mario/Doc Mario or M2), lets you dash dance and you can still do things out of it (JC usmash, crouch -> anything, DAC grab, JC grab, etc). You have a very limited knowledge of Melee if you think dashing is useless.

@ people saying Brawl is more balanced, wait until you play a Snake or a MK that doesn't suck. I love how balanced those two are.

****! I always have a perfect chance to utterly destroy the topic creator, but someone always beats me to it. At least it was Skler this time. /thread

 

[Lovage 805]

Haha, someone earlier in this thread said something along the lines of:
Melee players who've been playing smash for 2+ years understand melee and brawl, brawl players have no concept of melee at all (pros wavedash so they win k? haxers) and still try to argue....

and this thread keeps proving that true over and over...

 

[C.Olimar788]

Just because someone likes Brawl better doesn't mean they sucked at Melee. I'm decent at both games, and prefer Brawl. I couldn't efficiently wavedash in Melee, and barely care about the advanced techniques Brawl has to offer. I like Brawl better because I think the engine is a bit more fun overall and really like the new characters, items, stages, etc.

It's all preference. While being poor at Melee may be a factor, saying it always is is just being silly.

 

[Stealth309]

I favor Brawl. Even thought Melee has the advanced techs and is still considered more competitive, Brawl is more fun, just as competitive in my eyes, and so many more features and extras that it takes a long time to run out of stuff to do and things to accomplish.

 

[Stroupes]

Brawl's definately better.
Mastering "advanced techs" that are really just flashy glitches isn't skill.
And as for Brawl not being competitive, that's a big load of BS.
ANY multiplayer game is competitive.
Tic-tac-toe is competitive, checkers is competitive, Mario Party is competitive, Rock-Paper-Scissors is competitve.
What the Melee scrubs don't seem to get is that the game you're playing is only as competitive as you MAKE it.
A couple of glitches isn't what makes a game good.

 

[acv]

brawl just proved who was good at melee and who is good at smash in general.the same people are still winning tournaments.

 

[Cloud Cleaver]

I prefer Brawl. The 'random' party play actually got a bit worse (the items this time were horrendous compared to Melee) but the new characters and styles and unlockables make up for it. While I do miss L-canceling and find the lack of hitstun to be fairly strange (being shieldgrabbed out of a two-hit attack or standard combo is complete crap), the overall feel of this game is a lot more satisfying than it was in Melee. Moreover, Brawl hasn't been glitch-***** yet, not the way Melee was. At least now when you play against someone who has some skill, you're really playing Smash instead of some twisted, perverted spinoff thereof invented by "pro" gloryhounds. It was painful to me in Melee to have to deliberately screw up the way it was meant to be played just to keep from getting wiped off the map...it's very similar to Halo 2's famed Double Shot. I'd rather lose playing true Smash than win at the cost of ruining my favorite game series.

 

[Lovage 805]

Brawl's definately better.
Mastering "advanced techs" that are really just flashy glitches isn't skill.
And as for Brawl not being competitive, that's a big load of BS.
ANY multiplayer game is competitive.
Tic-tac-toe is competitive, checkers is competitive, Mario Party is competitive, Rock-Paper-Scissors is competitve.
What the Melee scrubs don't seem to get is that the game you're playing is only as competitive as you MAKE it.
A couple of glitches isn't what makes a game good.

hahahaha, see? the same point is being proven over and over

 

[Iron Thorn]

I favor Brawl. Even thought Melee has the advanced techs and is still considered more competitive, Brawl is more fun, just as competitive in my eyes, and so many more features and extras that it takes a long time to run out of stuff to do and things to accomplish.

Brawl's definately better.
Mastering "advanced techs" that are really just flashy glitches isn't skill.
And as for Brawl not being competitive, that's a big load of BS.
ANY multiplayer game is competitive.
Tic-tac-toe is competitive, checkers is competitive, Mario Party is competitive, Rock-Paper-Scissors is competitve.
What the Melee scrubs don't seem to get is that the game you're playing is only as competitive as you MAKE it.
A couple of glitches isn't what makes a game good.

I prefer Brawl. The 'random' party play actually got a bit worse (the items this time were horrendous compared to Melee) but the new characters and styles and unlockables make up for it. While I do miss L-canceling and find the lack of hitstun to be fairly strange (being shieldgrabbed out of a two-hit attack or standard combo is complete crap), the overall feel of this game is a lot more satisfying than it was in Melee. Moreover, Brawl hasn't been glitch-***** yet, not the way Melee was. At least now when you play against someone who has some skill, you're really playing Smash instead of some twisted, perverted spinoff thereof invented by "pro" gloryhounds. It was painful to me in Melee to have to deliberately screw up the way it was meant to be played just to keep from getting wiped off the map...it's very similar to Halo 2's famed Double Shot. I'd rather lose playing true Smash than win at the cost of ruining my favorite game series.

Thank you, folks. Smash was meant to be fun, not some elite esoteric wavedash orgy.

 

[Lovage 805]

god...I really am getting sick of people who never played melee trying to pretend they at all understand it.


do you honestly think wavedashing is what makes a competitive melee player better than you?

 

[Luigi player]

I wasn't too bad in Melee, but I like Brawl because now I can actually play other people often. Like, everyday.
With Melee I mostly could just play computers or my little brother, and that wasn't so fun... it would still be like this if I didn't play Brawl and Melee instead.

Oh, and the main things why I like Brawl more are online, more characters, NEW game.

Melee just get's old now very quickly... and now that I started Brawl I don't really want to play both games... because they're so different.

 

[Stroupes]

god...I really am getting sick of people who never played melee trying to pretend they at all understand it.


do you honestly think wavedashing is what makes a competitive melee player better than you?

I've played Melee for 7-odd years.
I got it like a week after it came out.
I didn't appeal to the wavedashing and other ATs that were discovered.

All the Melee elitists say that Brawl is for scrubs because there's no good ATs.
So obviously when you say "do you honestly think wavedashing is what makes a competitive melee player better than you?"
I say, yes, because that's what "elitists" look at. Glitches that they can exploit to seem better.

 

[Lovage 805]

wow, that's realllllly ignorant, do you honestly think melee vets dislike brawl because there aren't any at's....wow.

is L-cancelling a glitch? short hopping? no no, so why is the best player in the world a jigglypuff who rarely wavedashes and simply uses fantastic spacing and mindgames to win. oh, are those also just glitches too?

 

[Stroupes]

wow, that's realllllly ignorant, do you honestly think melee vets dislike brawl because there aren't any at's....wow

Mm, yeah, I do. Because that's all I see posted by anti-Brawl people.
If I had some sources, I'd post them here, but I don't care about it that much to go look for them.
ALL I'm seeing against Brawl is "no techs," "no wavedashing," "whar's mah ATs?"

short hopping? fantastic spacing and mindgames

Short-hopping isn't a glitch, and no one said it was.
And no one can complain about it, since it's in Brawl too. It's not even an AT.

Mind games aren't glitches, and no one said it was.
And no one can complain about it, since it's in Brawl too. It's not even an AT.

Spacing isn't a glitch, and no one...

Do you notice a pattern?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Please don't place me in the same category as yourself Marko -_-;

 

[Formless]

Wow I come back after a few months of not reading this section and everything's still the same. Melee Elitism everywhere. Brawl takes practice like any other fighting game, no it's not a totally level playing field. Sure you may not have super long combos or anything like wavedashing, but it's still a competitive game.

 

[BentoBox]

Stroupes, you are ignorant.

Most of the people voicing their opinions here aren't even active in the competitive scene let alone their own local scene, so why do you give a **** if the people that actually do play competitively find the game to be lacking what made melee great? (depth). That is obviously beyond you (because wding made you pro amirite).

 

[Stroupes]

It bothers me that the competitive scene doesn't appreciate Brawl because of a "lack of competitiveness" or "ATs."
That's stupid.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Mmph. This topic is ugly.

But yeah, I also like Brawl more than Melee. And since Melee fans want me to say it, I will.

I sucked at Melee. Not only that, but I didn't like anyone in Melee. When I play as characters, I play as them because I know who they are and like them for who they are. Pikachu didn't feel right anymore, and I felt Young Link was too weak. Somehow, I had arrived at Pichu. That's how sad I was. My best character was a complete joke.

Not only that, but Melee's speed was too much for me. I didn't have the luxury of thinking ahead/taking my time to think in Melee like I do in Brawl. That's why I like Brawl.

I also like Brawl because of the characters that are in it. My mains Toon Link, Lucario and Pokemon Trainer. Those three aren't in Melee. Their playstyles are perfect for me. They're very versatile in ways that I love, and I actually like them for who they are. The only other games I've been competitive in are Naruto ones, and my logic is the same there: pick characters that you like from the series, and work with them.

So yeah. In conclusion, I like Brawl a lot more than I like Melee. Sorry.

 

[Sosuke]

Your right.
Props for being able to admit it.

 

[DTKPch]

Short-hopping isn't a glitch, and no one said it was.
And no one can complain about it, since it's in Brawl too. It's not even an AT.

Mind games aren't glitches, and no one said it was.
And no one can complain about it, since it's in Brawl too. It's not even an AT.

Spacing isn't a glitch, and no one...

Do you notice a pattern?

Are you going to call l-cancelling a glitch? It was in Smash 64, Sakurai was clearly aware of it, and he left it in Melee. I believe it's just a usage of the IASA frames, interrupting an aerial early with a shield. Something so inherent in the gameplay isn't merely looked over by its designers. Sakurai put it IASA frames on purpose. Are you going to call it a glitch, then?

Are you going to call wavedashing a glitch? The game needed some way to resolve what happens when a character airdodges into a surface, so we have sliding. If you airdodge directly into the ground, you have no horizontal force, so you're technically still wavedashing, just with not sideways momentum. 64 didn't have wavedashing because it simply didn't have air dodging. Brawl doesn't have wavedashing because air dodges can not be controlled. If the game was programmed to let the character slide on contact like that, and competitve players are merely taking advantage of that fact, is wavedashing a glitch?

Things that are oversights may be called glitches. The ICs freeze glitch clearly is an unintended result, and so it is fair to call it a glitch. However, something programmed into the gameplay intentionally by the creators is clearly not a glitch.

It bothers me that the competitive scene doesn't appreciate Brawl because of a "lack of competitiveness" or "ATs."
That's stupid.

Lack of competitiveness and Lack of ATs ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

And why is it stupid? If the competitive players wanted to play the game a certain way, and the programmers made the game specifically so that they could not play that way (and did so intentionally, mind you), why should the competitive players like the game? It was specifically made for them to not play it how they wanted to.

An identical argument can be made for Melee and casual gamers. ATs were in Melee, and casual gamers feel that the can't compete without using ATs. Since they are (for some inexplicable reason) morally opposed to using ATs, then one can argue that Melee was made specifically for casual players to lose.

So when you say that competitive players are being asinine for claiming that they dislike Brawl due to its lack of competitiveness, you're exhibiting casual elitism in its purest form. An argument based on Brawl's lack of potential for a high level of competition is perfectly legitimate.

 

[Stroupes]

If the game was programmed to let the character slide on contact like that, and competitve players are merely taking advantage of that fact, is wavedashing a glitch?

Maybe not a glitch. But it's certainly no subsitute for actually playing the game with skill.
I know of most ATs, and I mastered a good number of them in Melee, and the ones in Brawl.
After I master an AT, I NEVER use it. I don't need to.
And I'd say I'm a pretty advanced player, offline anyway. I don't use ATs at all.

 

[EvonJ]

I like Brawl and Melee. I'm not really great at both of them. They are both fun. Each game is so different that I don't even consider them to be sequels.

There is nothing wrong with liking Brawl no matter how good you are at melee. And vice-versa.

There is nothing wrong with disliking Brawl no matter how good you are at melee. And vice-versa.

I laughed when someone asked if "wavedashing made you a better player". Maybe there is an exception, but 99.99999999% of everything I've ever seen that is "pro" in melee involves use of wavedashing. So if all the pros are doing it at least at some point (besides that one jigglypuff or whatever) can you really say that it doesn't make you a better player?


But this doesn't need to be a debate. I remember someone saying "I'll gladly give up sonic for wavedashing and l-cancel" in another thread. I can work that out for you, play melee. No one is stopping you. If you can't adjust then just play the other game. This whole debate/argument is getting old.

Oh, and there were spammers in melee too. Tripping is like a .5 second issue and it's done. Air-dodging and falling to your death in melee even if you were right close to the edge was more of an issue than tripping and getting back up before anything really happens is easy. If you trip into a fsmash, then why were you running at an fsmash? Tripping isn't a big deal...

 

[Wrath`]

I like both, but I like how brawl levels the playingfield, so more matches feel more chalenging.

 

[MuraRengan]

I like both, but I like how brawl levels the playingfield, so more matches feel more chalenging.

In short, you like brawl because have to put less work in to compete with people. Whereas, in Melee you had to practice for atleast a year before you could be considered decent.

The same challenge is there in Melee, you just have to work at it.

 

[BentoBox]

No evonJ. Wavedashing does not make you good. Using it appropriately does make you better. The same could be said about dashdancing, pivoting, blahblah. They are merely tools.

It bothers me that the competitive scene doesn't appreciate Brawl because of a "lack of competitiveness" or "ATs."
That's stupid.

It's the lack of options that at a certain point bottlenecks the depth of the game, which is what the competitive scene finds unfortunate. Matchups determine more often than not the outcome of a battle, on higher levels, in Brawl. While the best Melee link in the world beat Ken's marth in his prime. Tell me how that is not disconcerting? People now are even more driven to main top tiers knowing fully well that no mastery of ATs and mindgames will overshun inherent broken-ness. Hence why I said that there is nothing to look forward to. People, such as you, critisize melee's ATs which did less harm than good, and now you have the very same people telling us to look forward to a comparable "glitch" which will eventually surface. Hypocrisy at its best.

 

[momochuu]

This thread is pretty generalizing anyway. The OP might have sucked at Melee, but that's not speaking for the rest of us that played Melee.

 

[Overload]

If Brawl had the same elements Melee had, that would be the case, but it isn't.

I'm going to be direct about this and say that Brawl virtually has no learning curve what-so-ever. Every concept of the game boils down to using only basic elements which don't require any reflexes, skill, or fast movements in general. Everyone who has started Brawl has been on the same level of play from now since the day it has released, and there has been no universal progression in the game. essentially, you prefer Brawl because you now have the opportunity to beat professional players because they have been brought down into the same playing field as a casual player. which is ridiculous (Although needless to say).

Melee players prefer Melee because they want to play a fighting game, not a party game with fighting aesthetics. But more than anything else, there is no possible way to say that Melee didn't have a steep learning curve.

Do your homework before making unsupported assumptions.

Right on the money

 

[MuraRengan]

Also, OP is missing something important. The general population of people who prefer Brawl to Melee are people who sucked because they were too lazy to get better at Melee. There are some people who just sucked at Melee, but still prefer it to Brawl, but it's those people who were too lazy to learn Melee whom you will see the most supporting Brawl.

OP said it himself, but not in the right way. He "couldn't" learn Melee's AT's. It's not that he couldn't, he gave up because he didn't want to put in the effort. Anybody can be good at Melee if they practice, it's only hard at the beginning, but after about a year you develop muscle memory and become accustomed to the pace. Eventually, you'll naturally start getting better on your own without really trying. It still takes practice though.

 

[AlexX]

You can all rest assured I suck just as bad in Brawl as I did in Melee.

EDIT: And before anyone asks, I could wavedash and L-cancel, I just wasn't very good.

 

[EvonJ]

OP said it himself, but not in the right way. He "couldn't" learn Melee's AT's. It's not that he couldn't, he gave up because he didn't want to put in the effort. Anybody can be good at Melee if they practice, it's only hard at the beginning, but after about a year you develop muscle memory and become accustomed to the pace. .

It takes 1 year before you can get good at melee. Some people don't want to spend a year of getting beat down before they do anything at a game that is already 7 years old or whatever? You make this sound like a bad thing if you don't want to spend a year practicing.

Also, if you can take a year to get good at melee, why is brawl already considered bad after 4 months? Didn't it take 3 years for melee to hit it's stride?

 

[Stroupes]

People, such as you, critisize melee's ATs which did less harm than good, and now you have the very same people telling us to look forward to a comparable "glitch" which will eventually surface. Hypocrisy at its best.

I could really care less what kind of "glitches" or "ATs" we discover in Brawl.
It's not like I'm going to use them, I don't need to. Nor do I care who else uses them. Everyone plays differently, but not everyone needs ATs to make them better.

 

[DTKPch]

This thread is pretty generalizing anyway. The OP might have sucked at Melee, but that's not speaking for the rest of us that played Melee.

Ok, let's clear something up. Clearly the OP was wrong in his assumption that 100% of ALL people who support Brawl sucked in Melee.

However, it's become evident by some posters in this thread that a significant portion of the people who support Brawl fall under the OPs description. So how about we turn the focus of this argument towards what the OP was getting at, and forget his technicality of using an absolute term.

It takes 1 year before you can get good at melee. Some people don't want to spend a year of getting beat down before they do anything at a game that is already 7 years old or whatever? You make this sound like a bad thing if you don't want to spend a year practicing.

It is so a bad thing. Competitive players dislike the game because they claim it's not competitive. In a high level of competition, the one who works harder for the victory should be the one who gets it. If I practice smash for 7 hours a day (not saying I do. I barely have time for smash anymore, but let's assume that I do play for 7 hours a day), should I have the same chance at winning as someone who plays smash with his friends for an hour every friday?

You're really just reinforcing the arguments put forth. You didn't want to put in the effort to get good at Melee, so you like Brawl because it has a shallow gameplay, and it allows you to play at the same level as someone else while putting in significantly less work.

 

[Stroupes]

And why is it assumed that people who are defending Brawl suck at Melee?
That makes no sense. Maybe some people prefer Brawl over Melee for their own reasons, and were probably even better at Melee.

 

[MuraRengan]

Stroupes, I'd love to see you beat anyone in Melee without advanced techs. Dude, I'll tell you this right now YOU'RE GARBAGE. Your Melee skills are equivalent to the **** I'm going to take after I make this post, not only because you don't use advanced techs, but because you also have one of themost misconstrued views on smash I've ever seen. In fact, do oyu have any vids? I'd love to see you play and beat someone with skill without use of advanced techs. You don't know what you're talking about in Melee or Brawl and you can't prove yourself, your opinion is worthless.

 

[Stroupes]

And, how did you form that opinion when you know nothing of me?

I'm sorry I can't make videos for you, I don't have the right equipment.
ATs are useless to me. I don't need them.
Unfortunately, I have no way to prove myself, so I guess you can just continue to douche around with strangers.

 

[TWILTHERO]

Stroupes, I'd love to see you beat anyone in Melee without advanced techs. Dude, I'll tell you this right now YOU'RE GARBAGE. Your Melee skills are equivalent to the **** I'm going to take after I make this post, not only because you don't use advanced techs, but because you also have one of themost misconstrued views on smash I've ever seen. In fact, do oyu have any vids? I'd love to see you play and beat someone with skill without use of advanced techs. You don't know what you're talking about in Melee or Brawl and you can't prove yourself, your opinion is worthless.

Wow, this is such.........................................i won't even dignify this.

 

[MuraRengan]

It takes 1 year before you can get good at melee. Some people don't want to spend a year of getting beat down before they do anything at a game that is already 7 years old or whatever? You make this sound like a bad thing if you don't want to spend a year practicing.

Also, if you can take a year to get good at melee, why is brawl already considered bad after 4 months? Didn't it take 3 years for melee to hit it's stride?

It's only a bad thing it you dislike Melee because of it. If you accept that Melee has a big learning curb and politely decline it, then that's fine. But when you start raving that Brawl is better than Melee because "it brings people to the same level", A.K.A, "is too **** easy", you're jut being ignorant.

Any dedicated smash player isn't daunted by how long it takes to get good because the goal is all that matters. The attitude is, "I suck now, and I know it'll take a lot of practice to get good, but I know that I can be just as good as all those guys I see in the vids."

 

[EvonJ]

It is so a bad thing. Competitive players dislike the game because they claim it's not competitive. In a high level of competition, the one who works harder for the victory should be the one who gets it. If I practice smash for 7 hours a day (not saying I do. I barely have time for smash anymore, but let's assume that I do play for 7 hours a day), should I have the same chance at winning as someone who plays smash with his friends for an hour every friday?

You're really just reinforcing the arguments put forth. You didn't want to put in the effort to get good at Melee, so you like Brawl because it has a shallow gameplay, and it allows you to play at the same level as someone else while putting in significantly less work.

If anyone plays for 7 hours a day and loses to someone who plays one hour a week then this is something I'd have to see. Just because you might not get to 4 stock them doesn't mean you will not win. You make it sound like anyone that picks up a controller would be able to beat a pro in brawl. That's just silly. And, if you play 7 hours a day, I bet you'd be pro pretty fast. It doesn't mean the game is shallow. It's common knowledge that Brawl was toned down to make new players have more a chance, but that doesn't mean that the better player will lose just because. The only way that will happen is if the better player goes in to the Brawl match playing a game of melee and therefore doesn't play the game right.

Competitive players can go play melee then. It's like some macho contest "OMG I played 250 hours more than this person, I worked on all my combos (tears start forming) I should be able to flawless them, but but but but I didn't so" /cry.