Toon Link board's Hack discussion

[MrPhox]

Edited: Let's just have a Toon Link board discussion of current brawl hacks

here is a link to a video of it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd73w74ZWpo


My issues with wavedash thus far:

Removes multiple momentum airdodging.

MK's edgegaurding skills become GODLY.

Moves like TL's airdodge to zair are going to change in property.

The game is made to be floaty with more emphasis on interpretation and prediction of aerial attacks and airdodges. Now that you can only airdodge once, and then fall helplessly, players are going to capitalize on airborne foes practically all the time.

Seems like there will be more infinite grabs.




If melee reached it's competitive zenith with techniques like the wavedash and L-cancelling, that's fine. But if you add them to brawl, you're vastly changing the game in ways totally unknown as of yet.

So are we going to just make brawl like melee now?
we'd have to change quite a bit more:
more hit stun
no tripping
L-cancel
wavedash
higher gravity
faster gameplay
sweet spotting edges and grapples.

i'm sure the list goes on.

But at that point, brawl will be a melee wannabe. I'm sure there will still be issues. We'll have to patch the hell out of it, because of all the possible gamebreaking things we're going to do to it.

If you want to make brawl like melee...then why don't you just play melee? Why have a game that is proven to be a classic, and then another game that had potential in its own right, then ALTERED to be something we ALREADY HAVE?

Sakurai is going to make Smash Brothers 4, and he's going to reinvent the series again. What will we do then? Revert back to melee gameplay again because those are the years of the greatest growth of the smash competitive scene?



How about we play melee, and we play brawl.
As two different games.





On a side note however, I am actually really interested and excited to see what the community can do to customize our own experience. The gaming then becomes in the hands of us.

What we would then create is not "brawl" as it "should have been"
but an entirely new game.

I think that alone is exciting because of the possibilities.



We'll have SSB64,
We'll have SSBM
We'll have SSBB

But then we'll have SSBCommunity/customized?

idk, but it would be a NEW game. So be not threatened, brawl players, it's just another smash game we have on our hands. THAT's exciting.



Edit: I tried the no tripping hack, the extended replays hack and the shield-cancel hack.

I must say I enjoy having no tripping and replays over 3 minutes.
I'm gonna get the new true L-Cancel hack, I think that will be nicer.

 

[Sosuke]

Does it really matter if people got this wavedash code and stuff?
Everyone knows wavedashing in Brawl is just to make little Melee fanboys shutup. No one is going to use this competitively.

Brawls fine how it is. Its like your getting rid of what makes Brawl, Brawl.

 

[vbdood1337]

I couldn't agree more with both of you. Thechene brought up points I didn't even think of (infinite grabs for one). Now you are completely helpless in the air... air dodge and have to fall to the ground in the helpless state or just take the punishment in the first place. Hacking seems cool and all, but if this even comes close to getting accepted into competitive play, I'm seriously going to quit Brawl.

 

[rebd121]

Wavedashing in Brawl, as was said, changes the entire tilt of the game. It's a horrible idea.

Brawl is Brawl. Let's play it instead of Melee 2.0.

 

[Darktemplio]

well, you took the words right outta my keyboard. I actually signed on just to make a thread like this and lemme tell u that everything you said is true.

I went out of my way to use ocarina and try out this wavedashing stuff and its actually pretty cool. However, I know I wont be using it much cuz if i wanna wavedash, ill just play melee

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

I can picture Brawl having the competitive level of Pokémon D/P if hackers are systematically allowed to just put whatever they want into the game.

This is not a natural part of Brawl, thus, it shouldn't be in Brawl. It wouldn't surprise me if a Wii System Update gets released soon to counter these hacks either.

 

[Corpsecreate]

Just dont update your Wii

I liked melee, I like it a lot. I like brawl, but not as much as melee, I absolutely loved the level of difficulty and skill required to play Melee masterfully. Its in my nature to be competetive and melee was probably one of the most competetive games you could play, which for me, is perfect. Unfortunately, Melee didnt exactly have much of a competetive scene in the area I live in so I never got to battle some true pro's. Brawl however, is quite a bit more popular in my area and there has been about 9 tournaments in my area (9 of which I won, go Toon Link!) and I definetly had fun but its nothing like I enjoyed melee. Wavedasing in Brawl is something I would like to try out and mess around with but it wont ever become a tourny standard simply because of the huge inbalances that will result. The next step is adding in L-Canceling, longer hitstun - basically everything that brawl got rid of. Doing this will make characters like Metaknight truly God tier. Imagine an L-Canceling wavedashing MK with longer hitstun on his attacks.

Why did I post this? I was bored.
Why did I spend time explaining my Melee/Brawl interests? I was bored.
Why did I explain Why I did stuff? I was bored and it felt like it was needed.
What is wrong with me? I am bored
God why am I still typing, my post almost doesnt make sense.
Maybe I should stop writing before I continue to say stupid things.
GAH
Wavedashing is fun...?

 

[urdailywater]

I still stand by the fact that it'll break the game heavily. Too many infinites and things would be impossible against other players. Whatever though. It would effect TL's meta-game heavily. Wavedashing bombs, boomerang, arrows, and what about spin attack? Woah.

Anyways, I think Wavedashing is fun myself which would be the only reason I would ever try it. From what I see though, it'll never get accepted into tourney standards (i've come to realize..) so there's not much to worry about.


Edit: I like the Melee competitive scene a lot better than Brawl, btw, but I suck at it and refuse to get better at it by myself. I'd try if someone else were with me though..

 

[Nic64]

I still stand by the fact that it'll break the game heavily

brawl is already broken, though!

but yeah, bad idea, brawl is not melee, we all wish brawl was melee, but trying to make brawl more like melee will only result in failure.

 

[Asdioh]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. People need to understand that Brawl != Melee, and because of that, TONS of changes and TONS of TESTING would have to be done to make sure that it doesn't break the game. A lot of these hacks will have unforeseen consequences.

At first I was wondering what you meant by infinite grabs, but now I realized that you can grab->wavedash->grab? That's a scary though. I was going to say that it would actually REMOVE infinite grabs, because imagine Dedede trying to infinite you, and you wavedash away. Or something. >_> maybe not Dedede, but someone else.

 

[Lobos]

Does it really matter if people got this wavedash code and stuff?
Everyone knows wavedashing in Brawl is just to make little Melee fanboys shutup. No one is going to use this competitively.

Brawls fine how it is. Its like your getting rid of what makes Brawl, Brawl.

I agree with this...

 

[QUIVO]

i love melee, but people need to move on...

 

[Rutger]

I don't think any sane person will try to replace Brawl with a Melee 2.0.

i love melee, but people need to move on...

No, we don't need to move on, in fact we should not just throw out Melee just because Brawl is out. Both should be played at the same time. Melee was a great game so why is everyone in a hurry to kill it? It would not be hard to have both at the same tourney, just have them on separate days. We should not kill Melee nor should we shun Brawl.

 

[VietGeek]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. People need to understand that Brawl != Melee, and because of that, TONS of changes and TONS of TESTING would have to be done to make sure that it doesn't break the game. A lot of these hacks will have unforeseen consequences.

At first I was wondering what you meant by infinite grabs, but now I realized that you can grab->wavedash->grab? That's a scary though. I was going to say that it would actually REMOVE infinite grabs, because imagine Dedede trying to infinite you, and you wavedash away. Or something. >_> maybe not Dedede, but someone else.

Wavedashing basically might have broken Diddy Kong. <_<

Like I said, Brawl wasn't made for wavedashing. All the characters were reshaped for a floaty game with multiple airdodges. Making Brawl characters play a Melee-esque game is just asking for some sort of broken to occur.

Do we know if waveshining is back yet? That would make me lol. xD

 

[Rutger]

Wavedashing basically might have broken Diddy Kong. <_<

Like I said, Brawl wasn't made for wavedashing. All the characters were reshaped for a floaty game with multiple airdodges. Making Brawl characters play a Melee-esque game is just asking for some sort of broken to occur.

Do we know if waveshining is back yet? That would make me lol. xD

If any of the space animals can JC there shine it would be. I know Wolf can't, I have not messed with the others enough to know but I doubt it. maybe Fox can jump fast enough to pull it off but again I doubt it.

And what you said about Brawl not being made for WD is very true, the slide you get from it with any character is better then Luigi's from Melee and you can change direction mid WD. It's too much. >_>

 

[S.B.Soldier]

god-da-mn.... wavedashing people? like they wouldallow it at brawl tourneys anyways... we should be more focused on breaking thegamewithout codes... then it may be useful to the competitive world

 

[Phlemingo]

god-da-mn.... wavedashing people? like they wouldallow it at brawl tourneys anyways... we should be more focused on breaking thegamewithout codes... then it may be useful to the competitive world

QFT. Thread is useless.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

so you agree? I mean how many tournaments allow hacking? none...

 

[Rutger]

so you agree? I mean how many tournaments allow hacking? none...

I believe there have been tourneys with the no trip code.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

**this isnt personally directed towards you Rutger**

why would people do that, thats annoying this is brawl and hacking the game with exterior entities is dumb,,, and for what, to bring back the characteristics that made melee different.. not cool. thats like saying that (what if) metwo was playable... and i programmed him to be in the game... that should be ok? i dont understand why people dont just give the physics of brawl a chance it hasnt even been a year and people arecrapping on it... just give nintendo somerespect and play it the way itwas meant to be played... without codes... by making it "melee-like" its not proving anything, other than that people are afraid to change

 

[Rutger]

In the same regard this is not directed at you S.B.Soldier.

I think, as well as many other smashers that tripping should never have existed, it is just there to try and ruin the competitive scene. Taking out tripping does not effect the game in any way different then turning off items or banning stages like Warioware, we just have to go out of our way to do so. I also think people would accept a well programed(key words) character if there was an easy way for everyone to get it on the setups. I think Brawl has been given a chance, my reasoning for this is the fact that people are trying to bring Melee back, we have thrown Melee to the side when Brawl came out so if anything Melee deserves the chance to be played more. I don't see Brawl leaving so I am more worried about Melee not gaining any power, the two games should go side by side and when Smash 64 is released for the VC it should be right there as well.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

yeah...

well i dont like tripping either, so your point is well demonstrated

 

[Battlewoundz]

Even if these hacks were to make it into the competitive scene eventually, thats going to force people to have to crack/hack their wii's(am I right) which could end up in the loss of a 250 dolllar machine, if something goes wrong.

 

[Sosuke]

There are tournements with some hacks included, like the no tripping one for instance.
These are usually small-time tourneys at peoples houses.
Major tournements never allow any form of hacking (Smash tourneys at least), because they take away from the games true experience.
Patches are fine for customizing the game as to how YOU want to play it, but now how THE COMMUNITY wants to play it. Which, also doesn't take in part if the "added on" thing is fair or not.
It also changes the metagame and play styles. (Ex: Falco chaingrab without having to walk, so you don't trip turning into -> Falco can do whatever he wants).

Added on things mess the game up, screw them.
Play the game the way its supposed to be played.

 

[VietGeek]

Really no random tripping doesn't change anything since it's an unnecessary feature that was put to spite people and make us believe trophies trip more often than real people do on a daily basis. It doesn't make or break anything. No one is harmed, nothing is changed. It simply takes out an unnecessary element of luck that deters competitive play.

Wavedashing is a game-engine breaking code that basically breaks characters like Diddy Kong and makes tether users that use Zair as an attack a bit worst. Also, this basically creates *artificial* hitstun, or the human mentality that airdodging is bad and therefore allows for actual combos to be performed unless interrupted by the defender's aerial (since hitstun is still not really present).

Really this makes characters like MK more broken and makes characters like ROB godly offstage. Good edgeguarders like MK/ROB/Marth are now even gayer. Once Toon Link gets in a hit, you'll suffer 60%+ at least in this sort of system. Characters like Yoshi/Ness/Lucas get ***** since their recoveries are blessed by Brawl's airdodging mechanics.

Really any serious use of this just makes the game even more broken. It's bad enough as it is, lol.

 

[vbdood1337]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Reading through the wavedash thread it seemed like the only ones who were against wavedashing were the ones who hadn't done it in melee. People were trying to make sub-forums just for the hacks for a Melee 2.0.

 

[Asdioh]

I feel like in the past couple of days a revolution has been breaking out

I mean, they just released the wavedash hack...

And the "Should Meta Knight be bannned?" thread is having an overwhelming amount of support by those who want to ban MK. And it seems like some of them that host tourneys will be banning MK next time they host one.

It's like everything I knew in life is being suddenly taken away from me o_O

Not really, but you know. Oh, and Sakurai is a jerk. But I <3 him because he made Kirby. But it still pisses me off that he would spite the competitive community like he did. I don't want a Melee 2.0, but I also am slightly unsatisfied with the way Brawl turned out. If it had been a little different it would be perfect.

 

[urdailywater]

Even if these hacks were to make it into the competitive scene eventually, thats going to force people to have to crack/hack their wii's(am I right) which could end up in the loss of a 250 dolllar machine, if something goes wrong.

Not in they do it right. The worst it can do is delete Brawl saved data, and that's it. But that's only bad news if you didn't make a save file on your SD card.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Reading through the wavedash thread it seemed like the only ones who were against wavedashing were the ones who hadn't done it in melee. People were trying to make sub-forums just for the hacks for a Melee 2.0.

Luckily we all don't think that way though..

I'm on both sides of the arguments. There is currently a hitstun modifier out for the hack to make it more like Melee play, and I wouldn't mind if this came into major tournament rules, but as long as it was separated. Basically a Melee 2.0 for those who like Brawl characters or think Brawl is an overall better game, and Brawl for.. Brawl players (I think Vietgeek was trying to say this earlier).

I've never gotten into Melee competitive play myself and never tried Wavedashing, L-Cancelling, and all that other neat stuff before I came to these forums.

But there's not much we can do about the hacking itself. People will continue to do it until they get what they want.

 

[cman]

I feel like in the past couple of days a revolution has been breaking out

I mean, they just released the wavedash hack...

And the "Should Meta Knight be bannned?" thread is having an overwhelming amount of support by those who want to ban MK. And it seems like some of them that host tourneys will be banning MK next time they host one.

It's like everything I knew in life is being suddenly taken away from me o_O

Not really, but you know. Oh, and Sakurai is a jerk. But I <3 him because he made Kirby. But it still pisses me off that he would spite the competitive community like he did. I don't want a Melee 2.0, but I also am slightly unsatisfied with the way Brawl turned out. If it had been a little different it would be perfect.

Yea, something small like taking out random tripping would force no one to change anything. It's a relatively little change that would make the game slightly better, and no one would have to hack their own systems to be competative.

This, however, would throw an entire 8 months of game play out of the window. The meta-game would be shattered beyond repair, and no one could possibly be competative without changing their own games for practice. Thus, this will not happen.

 

[Barge]

Not that my opinion is worth anything, but I wish they didn't discover this, now they're going to try to recreate brawl into something it's not.

 

[Asdioh]

Agreed. And holy crap, it's cman o_O


I can't believe I forgot to post this :O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sSekrDuse4

Not that my opinion is worth anything, but I wish they didn't discover this, now they're going to try to recreate brawl into something it's not.

"They" meaning hackers. You don't have to worry about this making it into tournaments that mean anything, it will most likely affect nobody. Except for those that like to hack stuff in Brawl.

The word "hack" is a huge turnoff for me, as anyone who's ever played Blizzard games might know :/

 

[Barge]

Lol @ comments
"Wave sexing"

 

[cman]

I can't believe I forgot to post this :O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sSekrDuse4

O.O

That officially makes this worth being the tourny standard!

Also, hi!

 

[QUIVO]

melee 2.0 would've been awesome...

but brawl is fun most of the time so im fine with it

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Reading through the wavedash thread it seemed like the only ones who were against wavedashing were the ones who hadn't done it in melee. People were trying to make sub-forums just for the hacks for a Melee 2.0.

I'm not directing this post at you, I'm just bad with tenses.

I can't understand the mentality of these people at all.

When you hear a band for the first time, and you love their first album, what do you want from their second? The same old crap, which it will have become as you grow bored of it, you heard years ago; or something new which gets you excited again? They say the only thing Rock n' Roll is missing is Oasis' third album, and there's deeper meaning to that saying. Same logic applies here.

They have Melee. If they like it, good for them. I'm not in the business of telling people what to like. But, if you like it more, then go play it at the (still) many Melee tournaments there are out there. Christ's sake, the Melee champion is on a popular American reality TV show, as we speak. It's not like Melee's competitive scene is dead in the waters.

Equally, there are many of us who like Brawl, and don't necessarily see it as this broken version of Melee. So let us play Brawl the way it's meant to be played, instead of breaking the game to the way they want it to be.

I'm sorry for the long post. I just can't stand people who break games like these. It spoils the game for the rest of us.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm sorry for the long post. I just can't stand people who break games like these. It spoils the game for the rest of us.

No, I can't stand people who say this about hacks like this because it does NOT affect you in anyway. You don't like it? Don't use it. You don't want to go to a tourney w/ hacks like this on? Don't go to it and very few if at all will have it anyway, it will never be mainstream. Got an online friend that wants to play w/ you with that code on? Respectfully decline or ignore them.

Gosh guys, we always think one guy's little hack is going to become standard or something. It's not the original, it's a hack, it will usually NEVER be standard.

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

If this "little hack" becomes accepted, then it leads the door wide open to a whole load of other hacks. It's like a snowball effect. It just builds up and up until eventually it starts to gain a momentum of its own and at that point it gets out of control and impossible to regulate competitions. Don't dismiss that as ridiculous - it's happened to games before.

If I can't have the confidence to go to a tournament, and not be in the explicit knowledge that all hacks are banned by the SBR, then you may as well call the competitive scene dead. When there's only one event being hosted in a 100 mile radius and that tournament is using hacks, all legit players are excluded from the competitive scene, and it's not like there isn't an alternative. There's already a perfectly good game out there for those people who want wavedashing and no trips.

Equally, I could turn round to you say "Don't like brawl without hacks? No one's forcing you. Play Melee", VG.

You say it doesn't affect me - it affects me plenty. If the playing field isn't level, you can't call it a competition. End of. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of sport and fair play can understand that incredibly simple principle.

 

[VietGeek]

Tell me an OFFLINE game that has accepted hacks as the competitive standard. Tell me.

Generally it is up to the community as a whole to decide. The consensus as of far is that hacks should NOT be standard. Even if so, all responsible TOs will tell you beforehand in their tourney listing.

All tournaments want money (at least to pay off the venue). All players who go to tourneys generally wish to at least win, if not only for money. If the hack is the most popular choice, then it will have to be done. If you don't like it too bad. We can both play Melee together. Problem solved.

It's just the fact that no offline game to my knowledge has ever adopted a hacked game as the standard. And popular opinion has made it very hard to get hacked versions of anything in that realm of gaming to even be a slight standard.

Really you shouldn't be concerned about some guy's hard work at giving some players some casual fun being standard. This will probably never be standard either since it involves softmodding a Wii, which takes time and effort and most people don't want that anyway.

If it for some reason affects your niche community than I am sorry, but I don't see why it should.

The code at this moment is rather incomplete anyway.

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

If this is just a piece of harmless fun, then fine. Like I said, I'm not really interested in telling people what they should and shouldn't like.

What my concern is is for Brawl's competitive scene. You know, in the first day (OK, my opinion may have been more impulsive given the short time-span), there were people calling for hacked tourneys, and a board to discuss hacked versions of the game. It just seems to me like a momentum was building from below.

Simply put, when hackers are allowed to just change the way a game is played, and that's accepted in tournaments, the competition just loses all credibility.

 

[urdailywater]

Change the title TheChene. They already have L-Cancelling hacks now, so it'd be best if we could discuss the hacks and how they affect us all in a nutshell. For those people who are interested at least.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199981

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gRHA4aqVJ2Y