Toon Link General Information Discussion Thread

[Muhznit]

So I was playing around with Jump Canceled Bombs earlier and a brilliant idea occurred to me: "Wouldn't the sliding be intensified with an equip that has Skate Traction?"

FYI, It's an equip that gives a 1.3x speed boost, but makes you slide everywhere like Luigi. It's usually a hindrance, but in this case, since my theory was correct, it makes him have a very easy sort-of glide-toss. I slide so far with jump-canceled bombs that I can actually slide into my own explosions.

It gets even crazier. I have yet to find something that has Shield Heal for TL (I have like three for ZSS), but after testing with the appropriate power in Smash Run, guess what? SHIELD HEAL TL CAN HEAL HIMSELF VIA HIS BOMBS.

 

[zman804]

https://gfycat.com/WeeklySaltyIvorybilledwoodpecker

So K9 picked up Toon Link. Did some pretty cool stuff, got third at a local this weekend.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hi !
I made a video with some Bomb Advanced Techniques for Toon Link, here it is

There's probably a lot more to discover

Thank you so much for making this. People don't like reading, and my posts tend to get very long when I'm explaining things.

Did you try out the JC throw version? (JC throw forwards, dash forwards asap, catch the bomb with an aerial, cancel landing lag with bomb throw.) I'm quietly confident that it will work even though so far I've only been told that a dash attack will catch the bomb. The trick to it is knowing that you can dash in sooner than you expect (iasa frames on the jc throw I guess) and trusting in the length of the catch area in front of Toon when he throws out an aerial. It might just have to wait till we have a better controller, but if you're persistent, I'm confident that you'll be able to pull it off.

 

[Rioru]

Just tried it and it works ! I tried some days ago and didn't manage to get it off (I was only able to do the dash attack) but it's probably the controller, hard for me to do a clean dash forward. It should be pretty easy with a little bit of practice though.

 

[Mota]

I just tried it out as well

Tried out the JC throw version. It works for dash attack and aerials. Dash attack is easier but I sometimes get Fsmash/tilt instead of dash attack (Wii-U version might be easier if c-stick down still does fast Dash attack).

Fair and Nair also work, and then cancelling them with the bomb. I'm not consistent yet, the timing seems strict. Controls don't help, but with enough practice should be good.

EDIT: GLITCH. There are times where if you perform a Shorthop>bomb throw>Fair catch next to an enemy, the bomb will hit, explode, and deal damage, but you still catch the bomb. The bomb hits dealing 4% damage, but then you're able to catch it before it disappears. I've only been able to replicate it about 3 times out of say 40 tries.

At first I thought I must've pulled a bomb in mid air trying to bomb throw cancel, nope. I've been able to repeat it and confirms it does deal damage. 2 bombs for the price of 1 :D

EDIT2: Getting it 20% of the time now, only works at a certain distance. Won't be all that reliable.

 

[Rioru]

It seems like you're still able to grab the bomb you just used even after it triggered and the game understands it as if it wasn't used.
I was having fun with what Muhznit said earlier and I just got the glitch you're talking about.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes! I knew it would work.

Lol what? What the hell is with that glitch? So the bomb is still around soon after it deals damage? That's very interesting. It reminds me of how it was possible to hit and explode bombs that Wario had just eaten, and then if you were close enough you'd get damage from the explosion and Wario's weird belly attack.
Still, I wonder how we could use it to our advantage. Now that we can be up close when it explodes, I'll bet there will be an easier way to get this to work consistently, and then who knows, maybe we could repeat it, maybe the explosions would link into each other. This is all just best case scenario stuff though.
Actually, come to think of it, there's no way that could work. It's very interesting nonetheless.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

Ooohh Toon Link is getting better and better. I'll try this later and see if I'm able to pull it off, if only I didn't suck at fighting games.

 

[Dr[?}]

I have no problem racking up dmg, but I can't seem to finish with Toon Link very well. I'm also missing a lot of air combos, which would finish the job if I could connect. Does anyone else have this problem? It's pretty frustrating

 

[Scamper52596]

I have no problem racking up dmg, but I can't seem to finish with Toon Link very well. I'm also missing a lot of air combos, which would finish the job if I could connect. Does anyone else have this problem? It's pretty frustrating

I've been through that a few times. When my opponent gets to about 150%, I usually just put forth every effort I can into grabbing them so I can back throw them off screen. My second go to option is to try and land a quick up smash in the middle of the chaos. You may need to get up close, but if you and your opponent are rolling around everywhere, you might just land an up smash when they least expect it.

 

[Dr[?}]

I've been through that a few times. When my opponent gets to about 150%, I usually just put forth every effort I can into grabbing them so I can back throw them off screen. My second go to option is to try and land a quick up smash in the middle of the chaos. You may need to get up close, but if you and your opponent are rolling around everywhere, you might just land an up smash when they least expect it.

lol it sounds like you play exactly how I do. I'm trying to change tactics but I tend to do the same thing

 

[Scamper52596]

lol it sounds like you play exactly how I do. I'm trying to change tactics but I tend to do the same thing

Well I'd say Toon Link is the type of character that can easily rack up damage if you get good with him, so I would think that landing a K.O. should be a bit more difficult than other characters for balance. For that reason, I don't typically get too frustrated when my opponent's damage count starts getting high. I just work with it the best I can.

 

[Mota]

Toon Link does have trouble killing. I try and set it up with Zair>bomb throw and dash in for an Usmash or Fair.

bomb throw down to Uair?

Back throw at the edge works too

 

[Hyro]

So I got second at my local to Lee but won in teams.

In singles, I was using Mario until I came across a Yoshi I couldn't beat. Switched to TL and took him out.

Toon Link is definitely getting better. After I found out about the BFO, it makes everything much smoother. No one expects you to move after dair. Even if they did, if they GET daired, it's an easy follow up with that hitstun.

I have some nice replays but not sure how to post them.

Utilt to uair works wonders for damage rack up.

My best kill move is fair, usually after an airdodge>zair>BLC>fair. Obviously returning boomerangs are still magic. Bair kills, Bthrow kills...utilt doesn't lol

I found out we CAN spike without dying. It turns out you can DI your dair AFTER you connect it with someone. So if you're standing near the edge you can jump high and go offstage a bit, spike and hold towards the stage. If you don't connect you won't DI. I'm not sure if this DI works if you don't connect with the spike hitbox but I'm sure someone will check.

Now I find out about a JCT bomb catch? Gotta try that out after I take this test lol...that'll be a lot easier to land since I won't be telegraphing by turning around.


Edit: A lot of moves in this game are stupid strong. Toon Link is good against characters like these because you can stay away. Little Mac is easier to handle, Villager, Roaslina, etc.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So I was thinking that Toon should be pretty much impossible to kill if hit horizontally while holding a Bomb. The combination of being able to cancel hitstun with down-B and the extra length of Toon's tether should mean that the Tether Save will work far more consistently and continue working up to (much?) higher percents.

Edit: Dude, Hyro that's awesome to hear. I'd kill to see those videos. I'm not sure if the JC throw version is better (even though it's more difficult). I'd be interested to know what you think once you've compared them both in an actual match. Both versions certainly seem to have their uses.
How are you finding the controls now that you've been playing for a little while btw?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you can DI after spiking. I don't have the game yet unfortunately. Can anyone find footage of this, because it sounds really important. But basically, what you're saying is, not much has changed; if you miss you die, yeah? ... or is it just like, you continue falling, but now you can slightly control the direction of the dair so it lands on stage if you spike?


Edit 2: Guys. So as it turns out, there is a way to z-drop the bombs in the air the way we always have, without the zair coming out.
I just read this on the Link boards. Someone test it to confirm that Toon can do it too.

if you release grab before actually dropping the bomb within the first few frames of your jump animation, you won't zair, and you can recatch the bomb by pressing A (thus effectively performing any aerial out of short hop with a bomb in your hand).

This changes everything. Yet another way (a quicker, more realistic and familiar way) to abuse this new bomb AT. IZAC is back. I don't know how, I don't know why; it just is. (and yet ZAC isn't possible from the sounds of it)

Still, there must be a reason. Maybe we'll be able to figure out why it works, and then get ZAC to work too. What if it's as simple as buffering the input out of something? In the case of IZAC, that would be buffering the z-drop input out of the few frames of jump animation I guess. I really don't know. I'd have to see it.

 

[Mota]

Lol having a hard time remembering what all these dang TL AT acronyms are.

It took me way too long to figure out there was another option for Zair then Airdodge Zairing with the landing lag.....christ

Well my opinion of Toon Link has done a 180. With these bomb ATs his back to his smooth self. Feels faster and fluid. The new bomb mechanics not damaging you is godly.

I've incorporated the BFO(bomb fake out) and BLC(bomb lag cancel?) pretty well. At low percents it's great for damage racking, I use SH BFO fair > BLC > FH nair > FastFall fair > dash attack string.

JCT tech is fiddly with the timing, but does seem useful. Hopefully it's easier on GC control.

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Do you have any info on how to cancel hitstun with down-b? Sounds broke.

I'll look into this IZAC.

EDIT: either i'm doing it wrong or this is really hard to pull off.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well my opinion of Toon Link has done a 180. With these bomb ATs his back to his smooth self. Feels faster and fluid. The new bomb mechanics not damaging you is godly.

I've incorporated the BFO(bomb fake out) and BLC(bomb lag cancel?) pretty well. At low percents it's great for damage racking, I use SH BFO fair > BLC > FH nair > FastFall fair > dash attack string.

JCT tech is fiddly with the timing, but does seem useful. Hopefully it's easier on GC control.

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Do you have any info on how to cancel hitstun with down-b? Sounds broke.

I'll look into this IZAC.

EDIT: either i'm doing it wrong or this is really hard to pull off.

Dude, I did my 180 the moment I saw the bomb AT. Its potential was huge, as has been shown. I'd still love to see this stuff in a match. It's one thing to picture it in your head, but it's so satisfying seeing it being performed.

The JCT version should definitely be easier with the GC controler, but keep in mind that it was always tricky.

Cancelling hitstun with down-b. Basically hold a bomb, get hit by anything at any percent (? though it's probably easier to see with a decent attack at mid to high percent), mash down-b (which throws the bomb (yes, it must be down-B according to what I've read)) and you cancel the hitstun by throwing the bomb (retaining momentum of course). If you don't get hit like straight up, e.g. you get hit by f-smash, you'll even be able to hit them with the bomb before they can shield (obviously character and move dependant). So what I'm saying is that if we get hit horizontally, we can immediately throw the bomb at them and re-gain control presumably faster which will allow us to tether the edge on our way past, saving us from dying (at presumably higher percents than the old tether save).

The IZAC was always hard to pull off XD. I don't know what to say. Read what he said. What else could he mean? I interpreted it to mean: pull bomb, hit jump, instantly tap z (then instantly let it go), and this should z-drop the bomb in the air without zairing. I guess we shouldn't rule out the possibility that only Link can do it, even though that wouldn't make sense, so maybe try it with Link first.
He also said this: "if you item drop in the air, then you will zair and item drop simulaneously (unless you release the button before dropping it)" before he later explained what he meant in the quote above, if that helps.
Another example of the guy explaining it: in answer to the 'question', "Can someone explain how tobomb drop to aireal?" He says (my emphasis added):
"You have to input the z-drop (L-drop on the 3DS, I guess) within the first few frames of your jump if you don't want to hookshot, which is actually pretty hard. I'm probably gonna wait until i can play the wii u version with a gamecube controller before i seriously practice it or anything. Anyway, after you drop it, pressing the A button will "pick up" the item in midair if it's still close to you, and it will also use an aerial at the same time. Once you get the timing on the drop right it's pretty simple."
If this guy isn't trying to explain IZAC, I don't know what he's doing.

 

[Mota]

Ok I almost gave up and pronounced it impossible, but I was able to get it with Link once.

Bomb pull > SH > instant L (bomb will drop but hookshot wont come out) > Nair
This will catch the bomb with the aerial.

It does work but the timing is ridiculous. Even if you're able to drop the bomb without Zair coming out, Nair usually misses the catch. Maybe with enough practice it's reliable.

Haven't been able to replicate with Toon Link.

Gonna need some video on this

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Thanks for testing that man.
Alrighty, realistically I think we can probably give up on using what must be the new and even more difficult IZAC unless I hear otherwise. That's a shame. Having said this, I still think that we might be able to take the principle of the tech to find other ways to z-drop the bomb without Zair coming out. We just need to figure out why it worked, and to do this it will just be a matter of testing hypotheses. I've already suggested that it might have something to do with buffering. Any other ideas are most welcome at this point. For now it would be safer to assume that it will involve tapping the L button extremely quickly, which in and of itself might end up negating its practicality, but you don't know until you try. (Actually, Mota, you didn't mention having to let go of L immediately. Was that an oversight or is tapping the L button quickly not part of the z-dropping tech and more to do with catching the bomb after? Because if we end up using it more like a ZAC, there won't be the same strict need to remove L immediately.)

 

[lijero13ss]

HI all, I decided that i am going to main Toon Link in Sm4ash. Is there some sort of dictionary here in the forums that explains all these acronyms? (SH, IZAC, ZAC, etc.)

Thanks

 

[Legend28469]

Greetings I've also decided to main Toon Link I know SH = Short Hop and I think ZAC is Z-air cancel

 

[lijero13ss]

Im trying to learn all the bomb techniques. Just to clarify, the Jump Cancel Throw is just getting the bomb in your hand, then pressing: Dash > L button > A button ?

 

[Legend28469]

Im trying to learn all the bomb techniques. Just to clarify, the Jump Cancel Throw is just getting the bomb in your hand, then pressing: Dash > L button > A button ?

Dash > Jump > Immediately throw (A). If you jump you didn't transition from jump to throw fast enough hence jump cancel

 

[Bomber7]

Thought I might just drop in to see what's up. Glad to see TL still fun.

 

[Bedoop]

Loving that Feint-Purple and Green coloration for Toon Link. :3

 

[Hyro]

The "IZAC" doesn't seem like it works. I have my grab set to y so it's a tiny bit easier to perform. I did it about 5 times...your bomb drops but I was unable to catch it with an aerial...maybe toon link is too short? Either way the finger positions you have to contort to aren't worth it lol. Maybe the wii u version...it just sucks you can't drop from any jump height. That's always been a highlight.

 

[Mota]

Nah i was def tapping L.

All character landing lag

Toon link
Nair 15 frames
Fair 18
Bair 22
Uair 21
Dair 40
Airdodge 22

ZSS is broke, that airdodge and uair

 

[lijero13ss]

Dash > Jump > Immediately throw (A). If you jump you didn't transition from jump to throw fast enough hence jump cancel

Now i got it!! Wow no wonder everything else didn't work for me. Thanks

 

[lijero13ss]

So for landing lag cancel, according to the video mentioned above, once you are about to land, you press Down-B?
For example, you jump and perform a Nair, then when your about to land, you throw the bomb pressing Down-B. If so, is it any different from throwing the bomb with the A button?

Nevermind i just got it also.

Now my question is, how are these supposed to be used in battle? Im assuming their used for setting up combos and getting off some damage

 

[HullabalooFTW]

Hi, just wanted to say these techs have been really useful, I've been practicing them a lot these few days, tbh I'm not the best at pulling off techs, especially on people in matches, but I'm slowly getting there, the Zair lag cancel as well as the bomb fake out fair lag cancel has been working pretty well for me, looking forward to whatever else is found out about Toon Link, he's definitely my fave character in Smash 4 I actually think I like him better than in Brawl haha idk

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

HI all, I decided that i am going to main Toon Link in Sm4ash. Is there some sort of dictionary here in the forums that explains all these acronyms? (SH, IZAC, ZAC, etc.)

Thanks

I'm afraid that the jargon is a necessary evil. It's far simpler to use acronyms and names that others who have been around long enough already understand to avoid having to explain every single thing every time, which would make posts far longer and dryer. I thought there used to be a thread that acted somewhat as a dictionary for the more universal acronyms, but for most of it, I'd probably just recommend that you use my old Toon AT thread in the brawl section and just 'control f' search for whatever it is you don't know or don't remember. Failing that, feel free to message me.

The "IZAC" doesn't seem like it works. I have my grab set to y so it's a tiny bit easier to perform. I did it about 5 times...your bomb drops but I was unable to catch it with an aerial...maybe toon link is too short? Either way the finger positions you have to contort to aren't worth it lol. Maybe the wii u version...it just sucks you can't drop from any jump height. That's always been a highlight.

Well there you go. I guess that confirms it then. I'm not too confident that using a GC controller with make enough of a difference, though you're free to try.

Has anyone tried buffering it out of something else yet? Just out of curiosity, pull a bomb, full hop, use e.g. an arrow, then towards the end of the animation buffer a bomb drop and remember to let go of the button the very instant you hit it. I don't seriously expect it to work as it seems too simple to have gone unnoticed, but I'd like to rule it out nonetheless.

 

[Yackabean]

Can confirm you can recatch bombs from dash jc throw.
And you can still catch bombs thrown behind you in the air again.
Going to look in to this z-drop stuff now. I'll keep you's updated if anything interesting pops up

 

[Yackabean]

IZAC (nair) does work Hyro!
The timing is brutal just like it was in brawl however it's slightly different. The jump seems to take a few frames to come out. Z-drop without hookshot and nair instantly will catch the bomb and you can even BLC right after a fast falled nair it is great! Either way the IZAC looks hella similar to brawl where you catch the bomb with an ariel as soon as you jump. MJG, kinda scoffed at me when I suggested optimising it in brawl, looks like it's gonna be worth optimising in this game with the new bomb mechanics however. Frame perfect or not it will allow us to have safer SH nairs again, not sure if fair, bair roruair work yet. Dair definitely doesn't cause toon flies a little bit up upon start up missing the bomb completely.

Edit: Here's some of the stuff we've found and a little idea of how IZAC works.

Yes I messed up the IZAC quite a bit. You notice it when I Zair when dropping the bomb. Those were attempted IZAC's and just show how brutal the timing is. The jump in this game is similar to melee for me, you have to wait a certain amount of frames for Toon Link to jump. Hence why I do a lot of accidental JC throws as well.

Tl;dr - IZAC (nair) Is possible as well as fair, uair and bair. They can all be IZAC'd but the timing is stupidly difficult. I'd almost go as far to say it's harder in this game because of the jump and zair being a thing when we miss the timing now.

 

[Mota]

Sweet it does work. Sadly the timing is crazy to the point we thought it was impossible lol.
Maybe with practice it'll be reliable but I have doubts. I want to be proved wrong though, more TL tech pls.


Here's a question for you guys.

With Metaknight nerfs do you think TL is competitively viable?

 

[Yackabean]

Toon Link is certainly viable again. Without these techs though he probably would have been low tier, I had no hopes for our beloved Toon Link when we first saw him. Then the BLC was shown, and now we're already bringing back a lot of similar techs from brawl and so far it's making his camp and combo game so much stronger already!
Toon Link can camp in this game fairly well but not as strong as brawl Tink. But he puts up a close fight. The only tool that makes Brawl Tink better would be quickdraw aand iBomb. However, BLC seems to be the new B&B for Toon Link. I think of it as an opposite quickdraw tool, it allows us to do so much out of zairs, ariels and airdodge. Not only that but bombs and rangs are very good for setting up kill options now. Bombs lead people right in to Fairs, Uairs and Bairs now and it all feels excellent. It's how I tried to use Tink in brawl to be honest, my playstyle worked around an offensive camp game. This game serves that exact kind of Toon Link and I'm looking especially forward to what else we can discover. We're not even a week past release and so far we've found so much already so let's keep at it fellow Toon Link mains!

 

[Theodrassil]

Hey, new to the smash boards but long time smash player and decided to start playing smash more seriously with smash 4 with TL as my main.

I can confirm that IZAC dair actually is possible, and infact it really isnt any harder than nair IZAC imo.

 

[Yackabean]

Yeah it's possible I tested it out a bit more. For some reason I'm finding that more difficult to pull off though. Circle pad is really not gonna help this tech whatsoever. Really unfortunate.

 

[lijero13ss]

The timing must be insane. I have been able to do all the other techs described here no problem. But IZAC refuses to cooperate with me. Im doing;
Pull out bomb > Jump > Grab button > (immediately after grab button) A button (nair).

I always get Tlink sending out his grapple, which i know is not supposed to happen. I even changed my grab button to B so that i could hit B to A quickly, still nothing.

At least i know it actually works lol ill give it some more tries

 

[Theodrassil]

yea the timing is really tight on both the bomb drop and the aerial to get it to work, maybe only a couple frames for each. strangely i actually seem to find it a little easier with dair than nair, although it may just be coincidence that i happen to get the timing more often when trying with dair

 

[Yackabean]

I used IZAC nair in brawl quite a bit so maybe that's why I find that easier. Either way it's interesting that this still exists.