Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #15: Wolf

[Sesshomuronay]

I don't think its as bad for wolf as you guys are making it out to be. Its really even imo.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Radori claims that he kills me with the fsmash, but I honestly don't remember him even using that much. My only memories of it are when I'm shielding it or he whiffs it and I'm too far away. Not that it doesn't kill, it would be more than enough for a kill. I personally wouldn't use it if I were you though. I'd work on gimping and using set-ups to nail the wolf with that nasty upsmash and utilt.

 

[Kaffei]

His Fsmash has range.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Isn't it like possible to like di the first of tl's f-smash so you can shield the second hit?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Isn't it like possible to like di the first of tl's f-smash so you can shield the second hit?

I dunno, I'll test this tomorrow.

His Fsmash has range.

Neat. Problem is, I feel when a TL is about to do it, reason why I shield it. If Radori gets me, it's because I couldn't do anything / I was being punished for something.

Go ahead and use fsmash if you're punishing, it makes no sense not to. But I shield an fsmash when I know it's coming, and that's often more than not.

 

[WindMajor]

Toon Link's Fsmash pretty much never truly connects. There's always a small gap in which you can shield the second hit. If you're floaty like Kirby, you could just DI away. Toon Link's never Fsmash though since it's really risky. You can test it Asaph, but I'm pretty sure you will always be able to shield.

 

[tedeth]

60-40 in toon links favor. Wolf doesnt have such an easy time killing TL.

No.

Wolf can kill TL with fair. I dont see Wolf killing with Dsmash much because of TL's "always in the air" style. I definetely dont think this is 60-40 TL, 55-45 TL at most.

No. Wolf's air game is way too good for TL. High priority and high mobility. Not only this, but one of Wolf's major strengths is punishing landings with his smashes. If you are above a Wolf on a decent % you can pretty much say goodbye.

Isn't it like possible to like di the first of tl's f-smash so you can shield the second hit?

Yes it is possible.

 

[WindMajor]

No. Wolf's air game is way too good for TL. High priority and high mobility.

I've heard this before. Wolf's aerials may be good, but Toon Link is floaty, and in general, has excellent aerial attacks. Not only that, but he has 3 projectiles that can control the skies. Toon Link wins in the air, but it doesn't mean that Wolf isn't a threat.

 

[tedeth]

At a distance TL wins in the air but up close Wolf's fair and bair are far too good.

If I think about it in terms of zoning, Wolf wants to attack TL diagonally in the air. Falling bair or rising fair/bair. TL really has no answer once wolf gets through the projectiles. The reason to attack from diagonals is to avoid the zair, which unarguably outspaces both Wolf's fair and bair.

EDIT: Even at a distance wolf's blaster can still cause trouble of course.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Cheers Ted! Trust me, he knows what he's talking about. There are very few "safe" places for a Toon to be in this matchup which is what makes it so hard. The usual Toon style of being in the air simply won't work against a decent Wolf unless you're out of range of Wolf's Bair which has more range/priority then every aerial other then Zair and why would you use Zair at the peak of your jump? It'll just get punished.
As I said, I still don't know of a reliable strategy to take down Wolf, but if I was going to guess (I still have to test this out.), You need to stay in that safe area, in the air outside the reach of Wolf's Bair, Use projectiles to rack up damage and to create an opening to rush in then do the usual Zair, Nair stuff. Just make sure you don't land in front of him or you'll eat a D-smash. Also, if your on the ground and you shield a Bair, then the Wolf may instantly use F-smash, so hold your shield and possibly shield grab. I can't say much more, it's a work in progress. Besides, the day I beat Ted, is still a long way away XD.

 

[Sosuke]

Now that I can actually get on a computer, lol.

That is offensive to Wolf mains everywhere. Fair has a massive hitbox, and it kills for us. We can also AC it. Also, upsmash is ridiculous, and punishes spotdodges. A good Wolf will screw you over with it.

It's a bad move, but it's a kill move. That doesn't make it good. It may be good by Wolf's moveset standards, but not in general. Fair also has a massive amount of lag and a short duration where the attack actually HITS. It is also easy as hell to predict because the startup animation gives you enough time to react to it. Also, Wolf has to be facing you to do this. Is wolf is facing to at high percents? Look out for Fair. Simple. Highly avoidable. If Wolf uses Fair anywhere near the ground (which he shouldn't be doing in the first place if it's supposed to be a kill move), it's even more punishable.

Good TLs never spot dodge.


Usmash is very limited in it's uses. It's either going to be used as an OoS for badly-spaced attack (which shouldn't be happening with the TL at high levels of play), or it's going to be used as a DACUS. Since Wolfs should mainly be using DACUS to punish TL when he's just out of mid-range, it's simple to avoid if the TL knows how to space.

TL combo's the hell out of Wolf with bair and the such. He racks up damage fast. However, if a Wolf has decent DI, he will live til amazing percents. Ask Radori how long I can hold a stock and you'll understand. On the other hand, Wolf can take a stock offTL when TL is merely ~100.

If a good TL get's Wolf offstage, that should be a free stock.

The only time I've died against Wolf at less then 120% was from an offstage Bair at Smashville back in 2008 when I didn't know how to recover.

I'd also like to point out that the match is even easier for Wolf when at high damage, because he's not getting strung around like a rag doll.

I think it's much easier to kill Wolf then most characters, but whatever.

They're camping game is even. Playing Radori strictly in camp mode, I can get a laser or two on him, and him with an arrow or two on me, that is if both of us are avoiding each other as best we can.

TL outcamps Wolf easily. =/

Wolf shouldn't be using reflector against your projectiles unless you're really far away, you can zair **** him out of it and then go in for some **** combos. It might be worth it if Wolf uses the roll out of reflector once something hits it, but I'd rather try to powershield everything.

^
This is right.

I tend to run into the most trouble against TL's up attacks. Utilt is good at low %s, I think you can string it into a bunch of bairs Usmash kills well (or at least against me), and uair is just uair... good move overall, and I don't think Wolf can counter it from above with shine. Also (yeah this is an edit because I got ninja posted pretty badly since I'm slow), fsmash might kinda suck for Wolf >_>

^
This too.

Sasukebowser, how can a troll like you become a mod? Fair a horrible move? If by "horrible" you mean "beats all of MKs aerials and kills in midair around 100%" then it's a horrible move, yes. Clearly, you have never played a good Wolf if you say that he can't KO Toon Link well. Dsmash predictable is BS because it's only one frame slower than MKs dsmash and hit harder ... and nobody would call MK dsmash predictable.

TL isn't MK.
I've played plenty of good Wolfs. I don't think there's a Wolf in SoCal I've lost to. xD
Just because one move is similar to another, it doesn't mean you can make a comparison like that, lol. You have to consider that MK and Wolf have entirely different movesets and that MK has much safer (so, in general, more) options then Wolf. Wolf is limited in killing. If TL is close at killing percent, what do you need to watch out for with Wolf? With MK? That's what makes it predictable more predictable. ^_^
You just need to account for what Wolf is capable of, and set yourself up in a position to not fall into his traps much. Knowing the matchup, I can set myself in positions to not get hit by Wolf's Dsmash pretty easily when I'm at kill percentages.

FFNair -> dsmash is a true combo at higher % too

lol
Unless you mean like, the LAST hit of Nair, no. SDI. I've had my friend use this tactic back in like, 2008. I know exactly how this works. It worked for a while, then I learned that it's easy to get out of. If you're using the early hits of Nair, 100% possible to get out of.
If you're using the last few hits of Nair, TL isn't just going to stand their while you've hand Nair out for a second. XD

and there's still fair, utilt, usmash and even fsmash that kill TL at reasonable percentages.

Fsmash is really easy to get out of, Usmash is avoidable, Fair is bad, Utilt kills late. ~_~
Just imo though.

That match-up is very even btw and Wolf isn't dead either if he's offstage that's a common misconception. Few characters can reliably gimp a smart Wolf and TL isn't one of those characters.

Really? How are Wolf's 2 predictable recovery options going to save him? o_O

Oh, and Z-air isn't that good in this match-up =/

LOL. Wolf's Fair is good but TL's Zair isn't useful against a space animal. <3

The only way a TL will get a decent wolf to upb is hitting him with an arrow or other projectile offstage that forces him to recover from beneath. Even then the Wolf probably made an unnecessary mistake. With good DI Wolf can DI all of TLs attacks high enough to sideb back to the edge or onstage easily.

How often does that happen?

SideB is highly punishable and will just get wolf back offstage unless you manage to grab the edge with it or go through the stage (which shouldn't be happening because TL can edge guard you if you're that close to the stage).

In fact it's safer for Wolf to edgeguard TL offstage than visa-versa. I love chasing TL offstage and waiting for an opportunity to bair them.

Oh 2008, back when TLs didn't know how to recover. You shall be missed.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Now that I can actually get on a computer, lol.


It's a bad move, but it's a kill move. That doesn't make it good. It may be good by Wolf's moveset standards, but not in general. Fair also has a massive amount of lag and a short duration where the attack actually HITS. It is also easy as hell to predict because the startup animation gives you enough time to react to it. Also, Wolf has to be facing you to do this. Is wolf is facing to at high percents? Look out for Fair. Simple. Highly avoidable. If Wolf uses Fair anywhere near the ground (which he shouldn't be doing in the first place if it's supposed to be a kill move), it's even more punishable.

Good TLs never spot dodge.


Usmash is very limited in it's uses. It's either going to be used as an OoS for badly-spaced attack (which shouldn't be happening with the TL at high levels of play), or it's going to be used as a DACUS. Since Wolfs should mainly be using DACUS to punish TL when he's just out of mid-range, it's simple to avoid if the TL knows how to space.



If a good TL get's Wolf offstage, that should be a free stock.

The only time I've died against Wolf at less then 120% was from an offstage Bair at Smashville back in 2008 when I didn't know how to recover.

I think it's much easier to kill Wolf then most characters, but whatever.

TL outcamps Wolf easily. =/

^
This is right.


^
This too.


TL isn't MK.
I've played plenty of good Wolfs. I don't think there's a Wolf in SoCal I've lost to. xD
Just because one move is similar to another, it doesn't mean you can make a comparison like that, lol. You have to consider that MK and Wolf have entirely different movesets and that MK has much safer (so, in general, more) options then Wolf. Wolf is limited in killing. If TL is close at killing percent, what do you need to watch out for with Wolf? With MK? That's what makes it predictable more predictable. ^_^
You just need to account for what Wolf is capable of, and set yourself up in a position to not fall into his traps much. Knowing the matchup, I can set myself in positions to not get hit by Wolf's Dsmash pretty easily when I'm at kill percentages.

lol
Unless you mean like, the LAST hit of Nair, no. SDI. I've had my friend use this tactic back in like, 2008. I know exactly how this works. It worked for a while, then I learned that it's easy to get out of. If you're using the early hits of Nair, 100% possible to get out of.
If you're using the last few hits of Nair, TL isn't just going to stand their while you've hand Nair out for a second. XD

Fsmash is really easy to get out of, Usmash is avoidable, Fair is bad, Utilt kills late. ~_~
Just imo though.


Really? How are Wolf's 2 predictable recovery options going to save him? o_O

LOL. Wolf's Fair is good but TL's Zair isn't useful against a space animal. <3


How often does that happen?

SideB is highly punishable and will just get wolf back offstage unless you manage to grab the edge with it or go through the stage (which shouldn't be happening because TL can edge guard you if you're that close to the stage).

Oh 2008, back when TLs didn't know how to recover. You shall be missed.

Very nice summary. But referencing things from '08 won't help us now.

All and all very nice.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

It's a bad move, but it's a kill move. That doesn't make it good. It may be good by Wolf's moveset standards, but not in general. Fair also has a massive amount of lag and a short duration where the attack actually HITS. It is also easy as hell to predict because the startup animation gives you enough time to react to it. Also, Wolf has to be facing you to do this. Is wolf is facing to at high percents? Look out for Fair. Simple. Highly avoidable. If Wolf uses Fair anywhere near the ground (which he shouldn't be doing in the first place if it's supposed to be a kill move), it's even more punishable.

As its been said, Fair auto cancels. A good Wolf never lags his fair unless he's trading the lag for a guaranteed hit.

And I don't know where you got the idea that it's readable from. It's a fast kill move that can be canceled AND retreated. Wolf has fourth farthest aerial movement. Neat, huh?

Good TLs never spot dodge.

Cool. Now tell me while being convinced yourself that they never dodge at all. I know Radori has his habits, and I WILL punish them with an upsmash, and it will kill him. Btw, he's a good Toon Link.

See the habits of a player, and punish them accordingly.

Usmash is very limited in it's uses. It's either going to be used as an OoS for badly-spaced attack (which shouldn't be happening with the TL at high levels of play), or it's going to be used as a DACUS. Since Wolfs should mainly be using DACUS to punish TL when he's just out of mid-range, it's simple to avoid if the TL knows how to space.

Look into the move. It has more going for it than you know. It has large and long hitboxes. It's horizontal knockback is amazing.

If a good TL get's Wolf offstage, that should be a free stock.

If a good Wolf stays on stage, it shouldn't be a free stock. Believe me, we know we get scewed offstage, we're not taking the chances. Except for me, cause I have the delusion that I can fly.

I think...

therefore I am. I wonder if anyone got that. >_>

TL outcamps Wolf easily. =/

Then Radori is horrible. If Wolf is sitting there like a moron, he gets camped, but jumping and lasering, I can make it through your character's cloud of ****. Only bomb has priority, I believe. Those two are cancelled. A good Wolf will know how to get through.

By the way, what wolves have you actually played?

LOL. Wolf's Fair is good but TL's Zair isn't useful against a space animal. <3

I'm afraid the zair does **** us.



I wanted to reply more, but I have to go to class.

Radori, you're here, aren't you? lol

 

[Sosuke]

As its been said, Fair auto cancels. A good Wolf never lags his fair unless he's trading the lag for a guaranteed hit.

I mean the move is laggy in the air. As in like, after the hitbox ends. ^_^
Using Fair near the ground is a bad idea.

And I don't know where you got the idea that it's readable from. It's a fast kill move that can be canceled AND retreated. Wolf has fourth farthest aerial movement. Neat, huh?

I'm saying that if I'm looking at Wolf, I can tell when he's going to use this move and have enough time to do something about it.
TL has a Zair that comes out at any time during an air dodge. =P

Cool. Now tell me while being convinced yourself that they never dodge at all. I know Radori has his habits, and I WILL punish them with an upsmash, and it will kill him. Btw, he's a good Toon Link.

See the habits of a player, and punish them accordingly.

Good players are supposed to avoid having bad habits. =)
Besides, that doesn't really have to do with matchup discussions. It's PvP stuff.

Good TLs dodge when they HAVE to, which is very little. They don't make a habit of using dodge as a way to get out of things. Rolls are even worse.

If a good Wolf stays on stage, it shouldn't be a free stock. Believe me, we know we get scewed offstage, we're not taking the chances. Except for me, cause I have the delusion that I can fly.

Well I'm not really saying it's "spend all your time getting Wolf offstage" =P
I'm saying it's "if you can get Wolf offstage, free kill".

Then Radori is horrible. If Wolf is sitting there like a moron, he gets camped, but jumping and lasering, I can make it through your character's cloud of ****. Only bomb has priority, I believe. Those two are cancelled. A good Wolf will know how to get through.

I basically consider the blaster and arrow to be even-ish. They go through each other, but each have their own strengths. Wolf's blasters do more damage, but TL's arrow can have the start-up lag canceled(big boost in projectile wars). If I had to choose between the two, I'd go with TL's arrow.
TL also has bombs and boomerangs. Boomerangs aren't that useful against Wolf, but bombs are. Bombs help TL get around much more then Wolf can do with his blasters.

I just think TL should be getting much more hits on Wolf then vise-versa. TL has more options in terms of maneuverability, and that makes all the difference imo.

By the way, what wolves have you actually played?

Good ones that matter? I'd say ~4.
Randoms? Probably ~20.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Please name what Wolves you've faced Sasuke.

 

[Sosuke]

I don't know the names of anyone I beat. o_O
Who pays attention to that?

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Well then, I don't think you faced a good Wolf. Fair is a great move. And Zair isn't good against the spacies part made me lol. Trolling much sasuke?

 

[Sosuke]

Well then, I don't think you faced a good Wolf.

I've played plenty of good Wolfs. I don't think there's a Wolf in SoCal I've lost to. xD

SoCal

I don't care about people I beat. I don't go around saying "I beat this guy I'm so good!".
I remember people I lose to so I can have something to work on.

Fair is a great move.

I like how I write paragraphs about why it's not and you think saying "It's a good move" would make me think otherwise.

And Zair isn't good against the spacies part made me lol. Trolling much sasuke?

lern2read

Oh, and Z-air isn't that good in this match-up =/

LOL. Wolf's Fair is good but TL's Zair isn't useful against a space animal. <3

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Lmao sasuke got at me.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Lmao sasuke got at me.

Except you know, not. >______>

If you can't name any of the GOOD Wolves you've played then that's not helping us at all.

 

[Sosuke]

Naming good Wolfs I've played would help you how?

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Naming good Wolfs I've played would help you how?

To know if what you're sayin' is legit of course.

....Stop trolling plz? kthnxbai.

 

[Sosuke]

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]

THIS is what a troll is.
I am NOT being a troll.
If anything YOU are trolling ME.

Jeez, at least know what you're talking about before you talk about it. So freaking annoying and it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

THIS is what a troll is.
I am NOT being a troll.
If anything YOU are trolling ME.

Jeez, at least know what you're talking about before you talk about it. So freaking annoying and it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Way to go Wiki to ATTEMPT to prove a point.

And you said I take things personally?

On topic: You still didn't name any Wolves. >___>

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ok, stop it. This is for discussion of the Wolf matchup. Not about trolling, personal insults, flaming, etc. Take it to pms.

PS- Some questions:
*What are some bad stages for Wolf?
*What should we ban?
*Who wins in the air?
*Do we outspace Wolf?
*Who wins camping wars?
*Who has an easier time killing?
*What can we use to gimp Wolf?
*Which of our moves beat Wolf's bair?

Also, Wolf's Fsmash is a horrible move if not spaced properly. U can DI the first hit down and tech or even get out by simply pushing up on the control stick.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Ok, stop it. This is for discussion of the Wolf matchup. Not about trolling, personal insults, flaming, etc. Take it to pms.

PS- Some questions:
*What are some bad stages for Wolf?
*What should we ban?
*Who wins in the air?
*Do we outspace Wolf?
*Who wins camping wars?
*Who has an easier time killing?
*What can we use to gimp Wolf?
*Which of our moves beat Wolf's bair?

Also, Wolf's Fsmash is a horrible move if not spaced properly. U can DI the first hit down and tech or even get out by simply pushing up on the control stick.

I knew you'd come. <3

Well I'd say that FD is bad for Wolf.
I'mma say Smashville. Yoshi's Island as well.
Ummm. I'd say we do but don't hold me to that.
I'mma say, no don't. Arrow Cancels maybe.
We win the camping wars.
Wolf kills easier. inb4 no he doesn't.
Zair and arrows gimp Wolf.
NONE. Move is too goodz.

I like to bait the f-smash on Wolf then shield grab.

Moar later.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I mean the move is laggy in the air. As in like, after the hitbox ends. ^_^
Using Fair near the ground is a bad idea.

Dude. Read the posts. Retreating, auto-canceled, kill move, quick. Got it?

I'm saying that if I'm looking at Wolf, I can tell when he's going to use this move and have enough time to do something about it.
TL has a Zair that comes out at any time during an air dodge. =P

I can't say anything but that I doubt that. And if we're going to punish a dodge, we're not going to be in your face dancing naked just waiting to eat zair. Whatever comes will come, and if a zair is on the way, shield grab.

In fact, ignore these comments cause I'm going into theory craft, and I'd rather test stuff before I actually confirm what I just said and was about to say. Pardon this post for now.

Good players are supposed to avoid having bad habits. =)
Besides, that doesn't really have to do with matchup discussions. It's PvP stuff.

Yeah, I did just go to player stuff. Pardon me please.

Good TLs dodge when they HAVE to, which is very little. They don't make a habit of using dodge as a way to get out of things. Rolls are even worse.

Rolls are bad period. And dodges can be punished, regarless of a magic zair.

Well I'm not really saying it's "spend all your time getting Wolf offstage" =P
I'm saying it's "if you can get Wolf offstage, free kill".

If you can, and even then, you underestimate Wolf.

I basically consider the blaster and arrow to be even-ish. They go through each other, but each have their own strengths. Wolf's blasters do more damage, but TL's arrow can have the start-up lag canceled(big boost in projectile wars). If I had to choose between the two, I'd go with TL's arrow.
TL also has bombs and boomerangs. Boomerangs aren't that useful against Wolf, but bombs are. Bombs help TL get around much more then Wolf can do with his blasters.

I'm gonna go with showing is more effective than telling, so I won't pursue the camping topic anymore.

I just think TL should be getting much more hits on Wolf then vise-versa. TL has more options in terms of maneuverability, and that makes all the difference imo.

Generally? Or camp-wise? TL gets hella hits in the beginning, but at high damage, Wolf is a far better character.

Please name what Wolves you've faced Sasuke.

Has he done this yet? Will look when I finally post.

I don't know the names of anyone I beat. o_O
Who pays attention to that?

Everyone but you, apparently. Knowing who you beat is important, and how good they are. It tells you where you are.

I don't care about people I beat. I don't go around saying "I beat this guy I'm so good!".
I remember people I lose to so I can have something to work on.

I like how I write paragraphs about why it's not and you think saying "It's a good move" would make me think otherwise.
lern2read

You basically said "don't use fair near the ground" a bunch of times, and I've continually said the same thing. Read like, the first reply in this post.

And it's ignorant, not caring about the players you've beaten. Every victory and every loss are equally important.

*What are some bad stages for Wolf? Frigate is bad, but that's really for alot of characters. He can't get over that angle under the stage, whereas on FD, he can move along the stage and grab the edge.
*What should we ban? I'd ban Brinstar. Small stage, easier for us to kill.
*Who wins in the air? I'd say equal.
*Do we outspace Wolf? For some reason, I'm unsure.
*Who wins camping wars? I wanna say no one.
*Who has an easier time killing? Wolf.
*What can we use to gimp Wolf? Arrows can force him into UpB. I wouldn't count too much on boomerang unless you're stopping him early in his DJ getting back to stage. That royally screws him over.
*Which of our moves beat Wolf's bair? Zair.

Also, Wolf's Fsmash is a horrible move if not spaced properly. U can DI the first hit down and tech or even get out by simply pushing up on the control stick.

A good Wolf won't hit with anything but the tip. Using fsmash up close isn't a good idea.

My replies are on your quote. Some are opinion, btw. I'm not a TL main. lol



Basically, you don't sound like you know anything good about Wolf, sasukebowser, and like many people, you underestimate him. Both Radori and I are basically even, and our matches in the present go either way.

Go play a good Wolf.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Both Radori and I are basically even, and our matches in the present go either way.

You know darn well you are better than me. =P

 

[WindMajor]

Ok, stop it. This is for discussion of the Wolf matchup. Not about trolling, personal insults, flaming, etc. Take it to pms.

PS- Some questions:
*What are some bad stages for Wolf?
Rainbow Cruise can force Wolf to use his UpB. Lylat seems sketchy for Wolf as well.
*What should we ban?
Stage strike Smashville and I guess Battlefield. I don't know what to ban. Uhh Japes? Norfair? Actually I think we can CP Frigate now that I think of it.
*Who wins in the air?
Toon Link, but Wolf should be feared from up close.
*Do we outspace Wolf?
idk
*Who wins camping wars?
Toon Link
*Who has an easier time killing?
idk
*What can we use to gimp Wolf?
BCD doesn't work. I wouldn't recommend getting out of the edge if Wolf can recover with SideB. Try to jab or Ftilt at the ledge. If you're in a stage with edges like Smashville, don't do that. Wolf can SideB through the ledge. If Wolf is gonna use UpB, do whatever you want. Spike, edgeguard, bair for the stage spike. Doesn't matter.
*Which of our moves beat Wolf's bair?
Bombs, as usual. Maybe Fair or Bair if the bair is spaced properly.

Also, Wolf's Fsmash is a horrible move if not spaced properly. U can DI the first hit down and tech or even get out by simply pushing up on the control stick.

O_O I'm listening.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[NearZzz]

Stating the wolfs hes played isn't going to help you in the least. You may have never heard of the ones hes played, does that make them bad wolfs? No, it means they generally don't go to large tournament, and Sasuke's opinion is no less legit. I've never heard of Asaph and hes probably never heard of me, does that make us bad? nope.

If you disagree with his posts, then say so in a calm manner and be done with it. Not fall back on stupid **** like "what good -insert char here-s have you played?", and "You don't know anything about -insert char here-."

Everyone get off Sasuke's ****, Jeez.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

I've never heard of Asaph, so it means he's a bad Wolf.

/Asaph

 

[Sosuke]

Way to go Wiki to ATTEMPT to prove a point.

And you said I take things personally?

On topic: You still didn't name any Wolves. >___>

When you talk to me personally, it's normal to take it personally. You're addressing me personally, what else am I supposed to do? This is entirely different then you thinking I'm fighting with you because I think being put in a bad position is worse then taking a little damage. How do you even make a comparison like that?
I proved my point and now you're just wasting my time, so I'm done replying to you.

Dude. Read the posts. Retreating, auto-canceled, kill move, quick. Got it?

Yes.
I've got if from the beginning.
And you keep saying the same thing.

You: It auto cancels.
Me: Yeah, but it's a bad idea to use it near the ground.
You: Yeah, but it auto cancels.

I never denied that it does, wtf?
Since it's a kill move, you should be using it where it'll actually get kills. Up in the air. It's like saying you should try to use TL's Uair to kill close to the stage ground. Also, you act like moves that auto cancel are nonpunishable. If the TL shields it, you're going to get punished. It's much safer being used high in the air.

I can't say anything but that I doubt that. And if we're going to punish a dodge, we're not going to be in your face dancing naked just waiting to eat zair. Whatever comes will come, and if a zair is on the way, shield grab.

In fact, ignore these comments cause I'm going into theory craft, and I'd rather test stuff before I actually confirm what I just said and was about to say. Pardon this post for now.

I think you're confused. I'm talking about in the air, where this should actually be happening.
I'm saying that if you try to hit TL and he airdodges, he can just Zair you out of the air dodge before you can retreat enough to not get hit. This is because the duration of his Fair's hitbox is short. Get what I'm saying?

Rolls are bad period. And dodges can be punished, regardless of a magic zair.

How, exactly? Just curious.

If you can, and even then, you underestimate Wolf.

I really don't see what's wrong with me saying "Wolf offstage = free kill". I don't think I ever mentioned that it's absurdly easy to get Wolf offstage, did I? What exactly am I underestimating about this?

Generally? Or camp-wise? TL gets hella hits in the beginning, but at high damage, Wolf is a far better character.

At the beginning. But later on, TL should by trying to get the kill instead of spamming as much. It's not like Wolf's projectiles actually get more useful later on.
This ain't Lucario.

Everyone but you, apparently. Knowing who you beat is important, and how good they are. It tells you where you are.

For me, it's not important at all. I don't care where I stand in ranking. It means nothing to me. I only care about who I lose to. It's the only the that helps me get BETTER at this game and not inflate my ego like some other people.
People I've lost to recently that I'm working on beating:
Rich Brown
Bigfoot

People I've beat and go around telling others about:
No one because it's not important to me.

You basically said "don't use fair near the ground" a bunch of times, and I've continually said the same thing. Read like, the first reply in this post.

It's a bad move, but it's a kill move. That doesn't make it good. It may be good by Wolf's moveset standards, but not in general. Fair also has a massive amount of lag and a short duration where the attack actually HITS. It is also easy as hell to predict because the startup animation gives you enough time to react to it. Also, Wolf has to be facing you to do this. Is wolf is facing to at high percents? Look out for Fair. Simple. Highly avoidable. If Wolf uses Fair anywhere near the ground (which he shouldn't be doing in the first place if it's supposed to be a kill move), it's even more punishable.

As its been said, Fair auto cancels.

Using Fair near the ground is a bad idea.

Retreating, auto-canceled, kill move, quick. Got it?

Get the pattern here?
It's a response to you saying it's "auto canceled".
And I keep telling you that it shouldn't even be used near the ground if you want to kill with it. And you keep saying it's good because it can auto cancel.

And it's ignorant, not caring about the players you've beaten. Every victory and every loss are equally important.

No, it's not. Views vary between people, get over it.

Basically, you don't sound like you know anything good about Wolf, sasukebowser, and like many people, you underestimate him. Both Radori and I are basically even, and our matches in the present go either way.

Go play a good Wolf.

I'm sorry, who are you again? Who's Radori?
I've never heard of you two outside of posting in these forums.
OBVIOUSLY THAT MEANS YOUR POSTS AREN'T LEGIT LOLOLOL.
Do you see what I'm getting at? When you guys say "oh we go even, it's even", why the hell should I care? You two aren't really spectacular players I've heard of. Criticizing me for not telling you who I've beaten is being so freaking like, I don't even know what word to use for that.
Stupid, going by your standards of what it means to be a "legit" poster.

I've beat every notable Wolf I've played in tournament matches in a state filled with arguably greatest abundance of good players out of any other state in the country. That should freaking tell you something. I don't underestimate the character. I know the freaking match up.



This literally game me a headache. I'm done posting in matchup threads.
Sorry if I came off as rude in this post, but quite frankly, I got pissed.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Bye Sasuke. You won't be missed. You too soft. Learn to deal with ignorance my friend.

EDIT: BTW I know what you mean by not use Fair near the ground. lol You made sense now. kthnxgtfo

 

[xReix]

Stating the wolfs hes played isn't going to help you in the least. You may have never heard of the ones hes played, does that make them bad wolfs? No, it means they generally don't go to large tournament, and Sasuke's opinion is no less legit. I've never heard of Asaph and hes probably never heard of me, does that make us bad? nope.

If you disagree with his posts, then say so in a calm manner and be done with it. Not fall back on stupid **** like "what good -insert char here-s have you played?", and "You don't know anything about -insert char here-."

Everyone get off Sasuke's ****, Jeez.

^This.

Everything Sasuke has said is basically right, imo.

Lmfao at the guys thinking playing each other proves a point. Nice logic.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Yes.
I've got if from the beginning.
And you keep saying the same thing.

You: It auto cancels.
Me: Yeah, but it's a bad idea to use it near the ground.
You: Yeah, but it auto cancels.

I never denied that it does, wtf?
Since it's a kill move, you should be using it where it'll actually get kills. Up in the air. It's like saying you should try to use TL's Uair to kill close to the stage ground. Also, you act like moves that auto cancel are nonpunishable. If the TL shields it, you're going to get punished. It's much safer being used high in the air.

You keep bringing up autocancelling, but that's not the only thing I've listed, clearly. Retreating is key. It's using the fair and DIing away at the same time. You will not punish. And it's not like I'm going to jump on your face and use fair, that's idiotic.

I think you're confused. I'm talking about in the air, where this should actually be happening.
I'm saying that if you try to hit TL and he airdodges, he can just Zair you out of the air dodge before you can retreat enough to not get hit. This is because the duration of his Fair's hitbox is short. Get what I'm saying?

No, you misunderstood, or I worded something wrong. Somewhere, our posts got...melded. When I'm talking about attacking airdodge, I mean punishing it after I see it coming, and not only by fair.

How, exactly? Just curious.

Sorry, I mean rolling behind. Easy punish.

I really don't see what's wrong with me saying "Wolf offstage = free kill". I don't think I ever mentioned that it's absurdly easy to get Wolf offstage, did I? What exactly am I underestimating about this?

For one, stating that a Wolf offstage equals a free kill basically means it's absurdly easy, otherwise, it wouldn't be "free kill".

And not all instances of Wolf offstage are "Oh, Wolf can get back." There are certainly times that it's going to be difficult. However, there are other instances where just having him off stage isn't enough. He can get back pretty quickly, depending upon the angle, knockback, distance, etc, bla bla bla.

At the beginning. But later on, TL should by trying to get the kill instead of spamming as much. It's not like Wolf's projectiles actually get more useful later on.
This ain't Lucario.

Let me clarify, I don't mean to say Wolf is a far better character, I mean it gets easier for him. Sorry.

Of course he should try and get the kill. We're not trying to run an eight minute match here. And in this context, I'm not talking about lasers. Did I say that or something? Sorry if I did. I'm outlining the way the MU has worked for me personally. Wolf gets tons of damage, TL gets ~80. One of them kills the other, and the other comes back and gets revenge. Reason why I say this MU is even.

Although I am not claiming that will always be the case. There are variations.

For me, it's not important at all. I don't care where I stand in ranking. It means nothing to me. I only care about who I lose to. It's the only the that helps me get BETTER at this game and not inflate my ego like some other people.
People I've lost to recently that I'm working on beating:
Rich Brown
Bigfoot

Then I'll respect that. But if you beat Anther or something, you should definitely know. =D If it's some random guy that won't really tell you anything you don't already know, then it's not important.

People I've beat and go around telling others about:
No one because it's not important to me.

Well, it would sure help me know what Wolves you've beaten.

Get the pattern here?
It's a response to you saying it's "auto canceled".
And I keep telling you that it shouldn't even be used near the ground if you want to kill with it. And you keep saying it's good because it can auto cancel.

And you keep, again, overlooking those other adjectives.

I'm sorry, who are you again? Who's Radori?
I've never heard of you two outside of posting in these forums.
OBVIOUSLY THAT MEANS YOUR POSTS AREN'T LEGIT LOLOLOL.
Do you see what I'm getting at? When you guys say "oh we go even, it's even", why the hell should I care? You two aren't really spectacular players I've heard of. Criticizing me for not telling you who I've beaten is being so freaking like, I don't even know what word to use for that.
Stupid, going by your standards of what it means to be a "legit" poster.

Who said those were my standards? I keep asking what wolves you've played because, and get this fun fact, it's something I know because I am a Wolf: MOST. WOLVES. SUCK.

He is underplayed, underappreciated, and no one loves the *******. I ask what wolves you've played and beaten because I know as a Wolf main that they are SUPER rare. The chances of you playing a competent Wolf? Bad.

I've beat every notable Wolf I've played in tournament matches in a state filled with arguably greatest abundance of good players out of any other state in the country. That should freaking tell you something. I don't underestimate the character. I know the freaking match up.

Just because you live in a state with a lot of good players does not mean a specific character automatically has a good player behind the controller. Like I said above, Wolf is underused. It would be hard to imagine you playing a good Wolf. Even the "best" Wolf is questionable, since he doesn't go to tourneys often.

This literally game me a headache. I'm done posting in matchup threads.
Sorry if I came off as rude in this post, but quite frankly, I got pissed.

And I apologize if I came off as rude. I have a burning hatred for people's opinions on Wolf, because really, the guy has no representation, good, solid representation.

Handshake? Rock fists? Absolutely no hugs though.

 

[WindMajor]

This literally game me a headache. I'm done posting in matchup threads.
Sorry if I came off as rude in this post, but quite frankly, I got pissed.

Don't make decisions when you're angry. Take a break from matchups, and take as long as you want, but don't quit. <3

Well anyways, I said what I thought about the matchup. Anything else we're missing?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Don't make decisions when you're angry. Take a break from matchups, and take as long as you want, but don't quit. <3

Well anyways, I said what I thought about the matchup. Anything else we're missing?

The only thing more you could do is play wolves and experiment with ideas, see what you get.

Well, I'm not raring to be misunderstood or to word things incorrectly, so I'll leave with saying it's either dead even or some variation of 55:45 for whichever character. Do what you guys feel is best, and good luck with your other MUs.

Peace.

 

[Kaffei]

Everyday I come here to see if you guys have made any progress and all I see is people arguing like imbeciles.
I can barely contribute because I don't know as much as you guys and you all just waste time posting useless crap.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I mean, what's the point of fighting over this? Really. Sasuke u should get a grip. And crappy contribution is crappy. Sigh.

 

[WindMajor]

Just ignore it and move on. This is a matchup discussion. We're discussing Toon Link vs. Wolf.

We didn't go over counterpicks/bans very well. I suggested RC as a counterpick, since it can force Wolf's UpB.

Discuss.